Folk club do not die- they are killed

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Musket
Date: 24 Dec 08 - 09:36 AM

If he wasn't, you could not have faith QED.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 04:20 PM

Ian Mather: You have evidence that Jesus is a fictional character?

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:53 PM

And anyone who thinks folk clubs are cliquy and exclusive, should visit Friday Folk, and have their pre-conceived notions blown to smithereens.

Sue does a marvellous job, without any of the self promotion and self righteousness so often associated with folk clubs in the minds of those who have only visited one, and extrapolated from that the belief that they are all the same.

Don T.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 01:52 PM

Sorry Ian, that was one piece of bigotry too far. Or was it two, or was it many?

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Girl Friday
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:09 PM

I keep thinking that my folk club is dying, but it has survived for 21 years now. There has never been a committee, the punters and the residents trust me to get the acts booked, knowing that they can input ideas at any time. The residents are very loyal, yet receive no financial benefit, other than their own gig once a year, if they want one. Because it is such a small club, everyone pays their way. I can't afford to book superstars on a regular basis because they want too much money, yet very few people turn out for singers' night.(well recognised subs of guest nights. ) Yet, the club survives.....

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Musket
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 12:05 PM

"I used to enjoy singing "Freeborn Man" till certain residents from a traveller site at the end of the industrial estate where I owned a unit broke in and stole tools, computers etc."

Yeah, I used to enjoy singing folk songs until some chav ate fried chicken on the same bus as me.

Jesus wept.



He would do if he were not a fictional character... However, my point was...

A wonderful song, full of evocative haunting beauty etc etc etc. But let's not forget, singing in the abstract is no problem at all. I have sung about Chile and the problems there in the early '70s but never been there.

However, romanticising a way of life that is abhorrent to people who choose to abide by society and it's restrictions, pay their taxes and keep the place clean and tidy who are fed up with freeloaders. Many would be bemused by a bloke in sandals and a guaranteed public sector pension telling us what a wonderful lifestyle it is. The romany culture McColl waffled on about is a history lesson now.

Still a beautiful song all the same. Just enjoy it in the abstract now...

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: the button
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 08:14 AM

Merry Chrsitmas to you, too, Jim. Not met you, but would like to over a pint or three.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:29 AM

PS
Happy Christmas to all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Aeola
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:13 AM

It's a basic fact of life that whatever you are doing there will be somebody who will ignore you or even forget that you're there and there will always be someone who will get up and walk out, for whatever reason. The performer will just get on with it. On the other hand if they all get up and walk out!!! As for some noise in the audience, ignore it, a bit like the gymnast doing a back somersault on a piece of wood 4ins wide and everybody cheering the person doing the same thing on the floor to the strains of some classic music!

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 07:13 AM

Romany Man,
Why should enjoying singing and singing well be a contradiction- isn't it possible, even necessary to do both – not a matter of 'rules', just common sense.
Our experience with Travellers has been that every one of them we have met, and who have sung for us on tape, have tried to do so to the best of their ability, have usually succeeded and have apologised when they thought that theyir singing fell short of 'good' – usually totally unnecessarily.
Who am I talking about?
The Stewarts of Blair; Belle and Sheila ranked among the best singers in Britain and Alec was one of Scotland's foremost storytellers
Then there's Jeannie Robertson, her daughter, Lizzie Higgins and her nephew, Stanley Robertson – all good, skilful singer.
They have spoken at length about the need to sing well; see Sheila Stewart's book 'Queen Amang The Heather', or any of the numerous books by or about The Robertsons, or Duncan Williamson or any of the other great Scots Travellers.
We have spent thirty years listening to and recording Irish Traveller like Mary Delaney, who could make you cry with her tragic ballads, or Bill Cassidy, whose singing was so complicated that Peggy Seeger gave up on noting the tunes of his songs – and the dozen or so more who we didn't "happen to meet one time", but spent years recording, some of them becoming close personal friends.
Among the English Travellers, there was the great stylist Phoebe Smith (read her very moving statement about the importance she attached to singing well on her Topic record), May Bradley, whose mother sang for Vaughan Williams, and was herself singing like a nightingale when Fred Hamer recorded her in the sixties. Then there's Queen Caroline Hughes, who gave Ewan and Peggy dozens of songs.
The common factor among all of these was that they were great, skilful singers who totally and thoroughly enjoyed the act of singing.
As far as I'm concerned, they have all enriched our lives and we owe it as a mark of respect to make a half decent job of the precious gift they passed on to us – nothing to do with "rules" – just simple respect.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: the button
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 06:50 AM

"I used to enjoy singing "Freeborn Man" till certain residents from a traveller site at the end of the industrial estate where I owned a unit broke in and stole tools, computers etc."

Yeah, I used to enjoy singing folk songs until some chav ate fried chicken on the same bus as me.

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: GUEST, RIchard Bridge
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 05:56 AM

Ministry of Truth?

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 23 Dec 08 - 03:25 AM

Undersecretary for Interminable Variants

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 08:40 PM

Would that be in any way related to the Ministry of Silly Walks?

I can see a whole alternative government coming into being here.

What other alternative Ministries can you think of?

Ministry of Pompous Pratts - How does that sound?

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Piers Plowman
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:42 AM

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

"1) somewhere nice middle class people can go and sing very old songs in preposterous accents [...] I think they should be made a well paid branch of the civil service - because they would be doing valuable work preserving all these old songs - that frankly would have perished cos they aren't very interesting."

Can I be the Minister of Preposterous Accents?

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Musket
Date: 22 Dec 08 - 03:15 AM

Interesting bit about Romanies.

Folk clubs Have evolved from the coffee houses of the '50s, so a big club booking guests and a group of mates in the corner of a pub are classed as the same. Likewise, old Romany families are grouped with what we call new age travellers.

I used to enjoy singing "Freeborn Man" till certain residents from a traveller site at the end of the industrial estate where I owned a unit broke in and stole tools, computers etc.

Somehow, the song lost some of its edge.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 04:11 PM

Well said LesB and anyone else who still upholds the "rules" (I'd simply call them basic manners - to be employed anywhere where entertainment is being provided)upon which folk clubs have been founded since the nineteen fifties. And are still being observed in the successful clubs.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 03:00 PM

Oh ye of little memory...

Romany Man - oh sorry the folk police stopped fun didnt they.

Romany Man 18 hours later - who apart from you said fact about people having fun at clubs

I must say it is quite interesting being tried and convicted by someone who has never met me, would not know me from Adam, does not know my ethnic background and yet accuses me of belonging to some strange sort of Masonic folk inner-circle and being predjudiced against Romanies.

Well, at least he will have fogotten by morning so I guess I will not have to go to the gallows...:-D

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: LesB
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 12:39 PM

Whatever the club rules etc are or are not, I for one would get totaly pissed off if someone was so rude as to talk, walk around & generally ignore whoever was singing.
I would sssh them & tell them if they want to chat go to a pub & not a folk club.
If it was people singing in the pub then fair enough ingnore them & chat if you like but if someone has paid to see, listen & join in the singing then they have that right. Just as whoever is singing has the right to be heard.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Leadfingers
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 11:27 AM

Romany Man , all that comes over from that Tirade is that you haven't got a chip on your shoulder , you've got a bloody tree trunk !
True , there are idiots who have run clubs - I saw a club I had been heavyily involved in wiped out by a couple of stupid things 'The Committee' did ! And that was a club that had been running for twenty years .

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: romany man
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 10:49 AM

who apart from you said fact about people having fun at clubs im sure they do, and good on em, i never said anything as fact in my posting. only my view and taste in entertainment , but i bow to your supirior biased view, i suppose your one of the i dont dislike romanies, why i even spoke to one once, brigade, i said having been to several clubs in the past, i, thats me personally, saw with my own eyes, heard with my own ears, the ssshhh sit down shut up brigade of which, i assume you are one of. i said assume as i dont known for a fact. your posts however speak volumes to me, and thats by your own hand a fact.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Dec 08 - 06:55 AM

So, you never go to clubs but know for a fact that no-one has fun there? Hmmmm. Seems like the same priciple that people who do not know Romanies have very strange views about them.

OK - It's your view and you are entitled to it but please don't put it down as fact.

Thanks

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:29 PM

I have today concluded that the music is not dying,

See my recent post here

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: romany man
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:34 PM

from an avid i aint going back to no club againer, yes folk clubs are killed, they are killed by the very people who attend them, with the stupid rules and regulations, ideas set in stone, when will people see what they are doing, we as humans are not perfect, no music is perfect for everyone, the sit down and shut up while the demigod is on stage , or chair in the corner, brigade should look around at the real world where people attend venues and can go to the loo, go to the bar, without the ssshhhh , oh i cant hear above the sound of your breathing farting drinking page turning moving in your seat , and for gods sake dont show you are enjoying yourself by that noisy smile on your face, and cant you keep your beard, hair coat, shoes, change in your pocket quiet. oh my god that person pronounced a word wrong and oh how dreadfull was that a change of note in the song, guitar solo , call the folk police and have them locked up for ever.
people have to hone their skills, so where do they have to go, some far of island in the outer hebrides playing till the sheep, cattle dont run away anymore, sit there in some garret on the west bank of the siene as the artistes of old did, until some person of great knowledge says ok you can play in our club, but dont you change nothin or play a bum note or by god, i will shake my beard at you and remove my arrun sweater in temper, and i may even throw my sandal at you. for f**cks sake wake up, enjoy the company of like minded people around you have FUN oh sorry the folk police stopped fun didnt they.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 07:09 AM

Jigs and reels with bass guitar and bongos sounds like an interesting concept to me ...

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 06:16 AM

I know of one person that has killed several clubs &/or sessions (& nearly did for a FF) until he invagled himslf into the chair of a thriving established club. That club had too many regulars but he managed to give some sufficient reason to go elsewhere and that menat driving 15 past "his" club (only he thinks it is "his" club).

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:46 AM

How could you describe my accent as preposterous, WLD, and how could you possibly say I'm nice? And I wish I could get my kids to play jigs and reels, though they might sound a bit funny on bass guitar and bongos.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 05:37 AM

Blimey, WLD - did Bert Lloyd spill your drink?

But tell me when you get one of these whizzy speculative private sector place set up, Al, and I'll come along and do something creative with an old song. In my own accent. (I might even ask that John Kelly along.)

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 08 - 04:08 AM

I love the idea of a well paid branch of the civil service doing folk clubs, Al:-) Trouble is, it already in the private sector and whatever you think of them folk clubs are run and funded by individuals, not public bodies. They are goverened by either the people that 'own' them - probably the ones which you describe in scenario 1 or by market forces which means that they will only book people who put bums on seats. Either way some people will never get booked until the government start to subsidise them!

Richard, when you were defending the right of the less than perfect to sing did you ever defend the right of the organiser to put on whoever they wanted, or the right of the audience to expect good quality music? Did you also defend the right of the smoker to smoke? In the other discussions not one single person, to my knowledge, ever said that people do not have the right to sing. The majority did say that no performer should not expect to be able to perform wherever and whenever they like.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:03 PM

Funny, where were you when I was defending the right of the less than perfect to sing? Oh, yes, that's right, concentrating on ejecting anything traditional.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 08:18 PM

well stringsinger - we do agree on this occasion. English folk clubs are very exclusive, and it pisses off most neutral observers, just what they exclude.

In England we need two sorts of Folk Clubs.

1) somewhere nice middle class people can go and sing very old songs in preposterous accents and their kids can play jigs, reels , hornpipes - to exam standard. I think they should be made a well paid branch of the civil service - because they would be doing valuable work preserving all these old songs - that frankly would have perished cos they aren't very interesting. people should be paid to make music there, and I would probably pay the audience even more. This might solve the unemployment problem.

2) speculative private sector places where people have a stab at something a bit creative.

I think there should be absolutely no connection between the two sorts of club. You play in one or the other. if you come down our end, you lose the subsidy.

it is only in this way we will free ourselves from people telling us that it is our duty to sit through utter crap If they have valuable work to do preserving the tradition, they can bugger off and do it in a nice well paid safe environment - and leave the folk clubs for the rest of us to hustle in.

And then perhaps folksong that reflects how the people of England speak and live, will emerge.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 06:07 PM

The only place I frequent at all nowadays, and that too rarely, is much like a club of the very early 60's before "guests" were common. It is an informal sing/play round where we all concentrate on enjoying ourselves instead of killing ourselves producing perfection (whatever that is). We are permitted to get things wrong!
And, no, I'm not telling you where it is - you kind inhabitants know and the room is full enough (well I think so, anyway) Thank you for your kind hospitality. You know who you are!

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:49 PM

Folk Clubs, or coffee houses; really, all venues that have folk or traditional music as a mainstay, cannot afford to be philanthropic and altruistic beyond a certain point. They have to make a living to stay in business. In the end, the owner has to decide what their specific demographic wants - or will warm to - and provide a good measure of it. This keeps the doors open and affords, hopefully, some "open mike" time for newcomers and under-exposed performers.

The comment about the best venues being private ones does resonate with me. I have enjoyed some wonderful moments in homes and back yards with other musicians and friends. I offer one thought on the typical audience critic in a coffee house or club - he or she probably can't do what you're doing, so they try to bring you down in order to feel more important. Just remember, the poor souls have to go home with themselves, knowing the truth after all.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 04:32 PM

it seems that many UK folk clubs have gotten incestuous. They have their own prescribed "rules".

The best folk club is in the living room where people can share the music unimpeded by
self-style critics. What kills folk clubs are precious attitudes and an exclusive atmosphere.

Again, trad music is best served in an intimate environment sans mics and sound.

Frank

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 03:41 PM

But Bob, how old was your audience and were they (mainly) the usual suspects? Just up the road from you (well, 20 miles), we had an audience of 50+, both in numbers and age........and our evening sounds just the same as yours - carols, mummers, food etc!

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 02:49 PM

??????? It says "next at the club Tim Laycock Jan 22nd.

And it's Thursday not Wednesday.

Subject: RE: Folk club do not die- they are killed
From: Mo the caller
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:32 PM

Anyone who was using your website will be turning up next week.
No date for the Christmas quiz except '4th Wednesday'

Subject: Folk clubs do not die- they are killed
From: SunrayFC
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 01:23 PM

It's not easy selling folk music.

But it is possible.

But you have to acknowledge that the audience and things around it change, and you have to change with it.

We book some big guns...Martin Carthy, Tim Laycock, Paul Downes, Boo Hewerdine, etc.

And yet we also have "club nights". Last night was just such a night, with Derek Burgess, Simon Hopper, Mummers, Carols, etc etc, and we had a lovely audience of 60 people. You can't drag them along- they have to want to come. And that's down to how you sell the thing!

Nothing is free....NOTHING!

Sunray Folk Club