BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery

Subject: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 12:53 PM

This thread will probably raise a huge fight but I am hoping it doesn't.

I am a relatively new cat in the yard. And I have met and welcomed a new kitten or two MC.

Something is perplexing us. Is it common for some oldtime Catters to wander into threads, leave a barbed (mean spirited) and sometimes personally directed comment then wander off again?

Just something us newbies have noticed, spats aside, that we sometimes get clobbered by a veteran Cat, for no apparent reason.

Are we sniffing around the wrong litterboxes (threads)? Are we being too cute/clever or not cute/clever enough?

Can anyone educate us little 'uns about the the rules, dangers, best practices, etc. of playing in Mudcat? We really do like it here, but some of the Big Cats are scary.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:01 PM

Well, if and when I ever do that, feel free to PM me and give me a blast.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery?
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:03 PM

Don't be scared would be the first rule.

I am not sure of the incidents you refer to, but sometimes us old timers forget that folks are new. And sometimes you little purrers forget that we have discussed damn near everything to be discussed several times over. And other times, a young'un or an old'un is just in an ornery mood, and says things they later regret. It is part of what makes Mudcat so spayshul, cause it is just a village on the www. Folks have good days and bad days.

I guess the best rule is to try to treat one another with respect, argue your points with passion, but remember that a real live person is on the other end. When (not if) you blow it and get mean spirited, and a few days later you realize it, do what decent folks do. Apologize and get back to the discussion.

Above all, make music.

I never said "welcome" to you btw. So welcome to our little village. Learn to use the search engine and filters, make purchases whenever possible through the links to Amazon et al so it helps support the place, and contribute.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:04 PM

Don't EVER take anything I say seriously. Unless I am being serious.

(Trite? Moi?)

Subject: RE: BS: RULES FOR KITTENS IN MUDCATTERY?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

I guess whenever we join a new group.. there are those who will have been around a long time and have developed a certain persona of their own. When I first arrived here with my Christian views and attitudes I was attacked/criticised/hounded and could easily have made a fairly swift exit. I felt sort of new but unwanted.. even though I had been offered a welcome by some either by pm or in threads. Can I suggest that there are no 'rules' as such, for this sort of rift but that time and earning of respect in any group situation brings a kind of acceptance and even cohesion. Being new is not easy when joining a group but you either stick it out, learning as you go and accepting people for who they are on the 'cat'. or you make an exit with your tail between your legs.
Welcome to a wonderful site for learning and contributing to threads about about Folk music and a diversity of moods/attitudes/behaviours from the Folkies here and thought provoking text.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Becca72
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:09 PM

From time to time there is some hissing, spitting and back-arching but for the most part this is a pretty easy place to hang out. Don't let the snarky comments get to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:13 PM

Consider yourself welcome. Feel to home.

Every single one of those "big" catters was once uncertain and wondering whether he/she was acceptable. Turned out they all were. In the whole history of this place there have been no more than five people out of thousands who were so adamantly anti-social that they were not acceptable. This community in general has a high tolerance of eccentricity.

If someone says something to you you feel is inordinately derogatory, you have the option of telling them to piss off, or you have the option of explaining yourself, or you have an even better option of coming up with some really funny and creative way of making their grumpiness appear as stupid as it is.

But you do not need to shut up or pull in your horns, especially if there is a real point to the conversation. If it's just playing the dozens, you have the choice of just saying "Pffffft" and walking off to some more interesting thread.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:14 PM

TY Mick for the advice and encouragement and especially for fixing the thread title.

I hope old cats come to this thread and offer constructive and welcoming comment. If not that they at least show a little of themselves so Kittens get to understand the personalities better without being threatend.

Claws are retracted or I would cross 'em. I will be a Siamese cat and cross my eyes for luck instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM

Some people are impolite. That will never change. The internet somehow brings out the worst in some people. Mudcat is worse than most discussion forums because the owner has decided that editing must be very light-handed and only the worst, most egregiously offensive messages will be deleted.

We have discussed this topic to death, and no matter what we say, the impolite people won't change their habits and won't go away. Arguing with them only makes them worse. The best thing to do is ignore them. Note who the impolite people are and don't respond to them at all.

Try not to let them discourage you. You will find plenty of other polite friendly people to discuss things with.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:00 PM

ummm... Thank you Jim. I just learned a very valuble lesson from that somewhat equivocal advice. I will try not to denegrate my host owner and not put down the forum in which I play, as I am as at least as responsible for what happens here as everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Alice
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:03 PM

Hey, Virginia, don't remember if I've said welcome to mudcat yet, but.... Welcome to Mudcat!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:12 PM

VirginiaTam: I don't get it. Are you trying to be ironic? What was equivocal about my advice?

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:22 PM

>>I am a relatively new cat in the yard. And I have met and welcomed a new kitten or two MC.

Something is perplexing us. Is it common for some oldtime Catters to wander into threads, leave a barbed (mean spirited) and sometimes personally directed comment then wander off again?

Just something us newbies have noticed, spats aside, that we sometimes get clobbered by a veteran Cat, for no apparent reason. <<

I've been a MudCatter for about 7 years, as far as I know it has always been thus. I like your analogy. It puts things in perspective for me. In real life, mother cats often take whacks at their playing kittens for no other apparent reason than their feline nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:29 PM

Oh Dear! I really did not mean for this thread to be an invitation to meet and welcome me.

Just that some of us new peeps have been wondering (in the background pms and emails) about some behaviours here.   We want to positively contribute, but feel perhaps there are somethings we need to know.

So if Old Deuteronomy, Demeter, Gus, Grizabella, and the others will please come forward and teach us how to be jellicle.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:35 PM

Jim

I don't know how to put this any more kindly. I found your advice equivocal in that it was both positive (helpful) and negative (not helpful).

The last thing I want is for this thread to devolve into a finger pointing, name calling blame fest.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Morticia
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:36 PM

There is no excuse for bad manners irrespective of how long someone has been here and you are as entitled to an opinion as anyone else. This site would fizzle out entirely if we didn't get new blood from time to time and it would become 'old timers' to remember that.

Having said that, the humour can get a little funky in here sometimes, are you sure whoever it was wasn't just teasing?

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Megan L
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM

Theres an auld Scots proverb "Nippin an scartin's a Scots wooin"

Mind you occassionally a kitten needs a cloored lug or a skelped bahookie tae learn tae mind its manners.

Awra best
Meg

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:52 PM

Remember the great Rumpuscat!

And there are several Rum Tum Tuggers.

Shout back (but you know that).

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

Richard- What are you doin here? Aren't you supposed to be at Linda's party?

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM

VirginiaTam: Being partly positive and partly negative is not the same thing as being "equivocal."

And even negative advice ("Don't do this—") can be helpful. Mine was certainly intended to be helpful.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Bee
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:12 PM

Virginia, aside from a few grumpy old (or young..ish) catters, there's also a bit of a cultural divide at times, I think. Sometimes I've misconstrued a friendly or at least neutral comment because I'm not used to the linguistic mannerisms of people from various countries and districts. Best to think about a comment that dismays or puzzles until you can figure out the intent.

I try not to be unpleasant, but some would disagree bytimes.

And welcome, anyway - hope I haven't been a source of discomfort to you!

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

The overall reception of people here to my own newness has been pretty good. There is an awful lot of flaming on the Cat though. And it's bluddy pointless moody rubbish for the most part.

I think in general, a lot of established forums, rather like 'old boys clubs' can feel affronted at Jack the Lad stumbling in with his his strange new Jazzamataz, coctails and loose women. I've certainly experienced it elsewhere.

I don't really have anything sensible to add tonight accept that fun is always a good thing, but especially when no-one is getting hurt.

Thus stupid worthless banter is to ever be saluted and celebrated as the highest epitomy of human intelligence. Meaning of course: Pure Senseless Pleasure for no other purpose than its for It's Own Sake (hurried voiceover of small-print: "which does not result in pregnancy or other real worldy inconvenience.")

Why do we have kittens, if not to pleasingly riot and piddle all over the place? >mews cutely and bites lightly with tiny, but terribly sharp teeth<

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:27 PM

The equivocation was inferred and erroneously applied by me then. Another lesson learned.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:35 PM

Which one are you Richard?

I want to be a Grizella but I am more like Jenny enny dots. The mice and cockroaches just want constructive employment. That's what makes a gumby cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 03:49 PM

Is it common for some oldtime Catters to wander into threads, leave a barbed (mean spirited) and sometimes personally directed comment then wander off again?

Sometimes it's just hard to tell the diff in tone between a jest and a barb. On the other hand, there is also an annual winter madness (see old threads on Silly Season). IMO and YMMV.

Best advice I can offer is to PM a MudBud whenever you are not sure how to take something. Pick a few you trust and who you think you "read" accurately, and get a coupla viewpoints via PM as needed, then go with your own best thinking.

And be trustworthy yourself. Decline fights, shit-stirring, mudslinging, and gossip. Hard to do! :~) When tempted, try to do those in PMs too, not out ion the threads. But in winter madness it can be hard to realize that's what we're doing.

Finally, the FAQ is always useful to read and a $5 whine fee is always welcome (see Auction).

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:02 PM

There are some less flippant responses to VTams opening question, which I didn't comment on earlier. But deserve further thought - when I'm in a 'further thought' rather than a 'retrogressive thought' state of mind.... Further days may follow, in which further thoughts may follow. All supposing there is a thought thing what still thinks such things. And of course I have already scripted "The Thing What Thought Stuff" (an automatically kitten mutilating film!)

The Cat is nevertheless full of flaming arseholes of course. Though I suspect some of Spaws fart-lighting schizoid sub-personalities may be to blame for that one... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM

My dog is not a cat, obviously, but her quirks may be applicable here. She likes other dogs and welcomes their presence but when it comes to a young, rambunctious one she is a fixer: She takes it upon herself to teach the young'un what, in her view, is acceptable; she snaps and barks and spins around. She never harms the pup physically but she may well scar it for life psychologically *g*. The pups' reactions vary- some cringe away, some bounce around begging her to lighten up and play, some growl.

Insert 'new' for 'young' and you got it. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:23 PM

creeps sake.. The original question culminated out of not only a coule of bad experiences but perceptions by others that MC is rife with grumpy old man syndrome.

I do use the search tool, I do use the FAQ, I (now) do track some posters to get an idea of their personality before commenting on things they've said, so I can make an informed decision about whether or not I want to deal with resultant grief.

Maybe I just wanted to kindly point out to veterans (without rubbing nose in the shit) that some behaviour is pretty awful and childish.

Moonlight... turn your face to the moonlight. If you find there the meaning of what happiness is, then your new life will begin.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: peregrina
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:55 PM

It seems odd to me that quite a few posts elaborate the metaphor to blame the kittens...and yet...
there haven't really been many obstreperous guests recently, so a tinge of the the old, old thing of blaming outsiders or the target?

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 04:57 PM

"Maybe I just wanted to kindly point out to veterans (without rubbing nose in the shit) that some behaviour is pretty awful and childish."

Well there's a superior strain of Mudcat of course, wot knows it awl, and is beyond reproach. This is by far the cleverest mythical Mudcat wat ever was. They slag everyone else orf, and know lots, but never give any of their mythical magical knowings away. Proper superior folk they is. And they prove they are superior, by slagging everyone else orf. Pity their superior know-stuff gets lost like unicorn Mudcat dung in a common awld Mudcat dunghill. Cos if it didn't we mite awl be brilliant Mudcritters equal even to they...

Jeez reminds me o' Genesis!

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:16 PM

The sad fact of the matter is that those most in need of chastisement are often least likely to recognize themselves, and subtlety, especially, will get you nowhere...

Sounds like you've got the survival basics sussed out, though. Welcome to the zoo!

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: wysiwyg
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:20 PM

Maybe I just wanted to kindly point out to veterans (without rubbing nose in the shit) that some behaviour is pretty awful and childish.


I'm sorry to hear that. I thought you were asking guidance for yourself, and replied from that perception.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:28 PM

ok ok ok... I am gonna calm down and beg for calm from others.

The thing is that people sometimes don't recognise when they are being difficult, myself included.

Sometimes people don't care and we should just not give their flaming the oxygen of attention.

Probably none of habitual grumps will peek into this thread or if they do will not clue into own behaviour and how it is perceived.

But those of us who do, let's contribute positively now. No more blaming, or whining or whinging - or I will refer you to WYSIWIG and her $5 fee (proceeds to benefit MudCat after 62% tax and administration)

Think I would like to make this a get to know each other thread, now.

Especially since my memory book thread died the death.

If it cannot be, then please please just let this thread fall off the board.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 05:31 PM

If you feel you've been targeted for a personal attack, PM Joe Offer and he'll be happy to look at it and rap the nose of the kitty that dood it.

There are other Joe Clones that may step in from time to time, if they also feel the attacks are personal and provocative but Joe is the head Honcho.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 06:19 PM

VTam... "Probably none of habitual grumps will peek into this thread or if they do will not clue into own behaviour and how it is perceived."

I'll take that as a compliment.

As for this thread falling off the board, I think it should be linked to in the threads meant for newbies to read. It's well worth reading... for newbies and for us old grumps.

Have fun and feed not the trolls (see the newbie threads).

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: paula t
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:12 PM

I think you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Occasionally someone will take the opportunity to make a personal attack because they don't agree with your opinion and can't think of an intelligent response.This happened to me a few months ago. I chose to be the grown up and leave the thread. This is always an option- because life's too short to get stressed out about a forum which is supposed to be interesting and entertaining .A short while later, someone left me a very reassuring and kind message on my page - which restored my faith in Mudcat and put things into perspective for me.Now I often read threads but don't post when I can see where they are going.There are individuals who seem to thrive on a"Darned good argument" and obviously enjoy it. Good luck to them,if that's what they enjoy.Mudcat is doing them a valuable service.

Enjoy the cut and thrust of the site!

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: maire-aine
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:26 PM

I came here for the music, and that was all I was expecting. Along the way, I met (some in person, some only online) some wonderful folks. In general, I keep to myself, because I read some of the controversial threads, but don't post there. Most of the time, I figure life is too short to bother. Except for a few "rah-rahs" for our Red Wings, I keep my opinions to myself. But you guys that want to discuss/argue/whatever, you go for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:30 PM

I am definitely grumpy. It takes time to get grumpy. It's almost a rank.

I might like to be MacAvity, but I doubt my capability.

I may not have read VT's every post, but I don't think I have ever seen anyone really get umpty with her (you).

This place is very polite compared to say Turbobricks (well, now that the original Gargoyle and Martin Gobson and Cli*ton Hammond are gone, and saving the C*ntess who can be very spiky).

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 08:45 PM

>The sad fact of the matter is that those most in need of chastisement are often least likely to recognize themselves, and subtlety, especially, will get you nowhere...<

Damned straight. (And they often cohere to each other.)

Nothing to be done on an ongoing basis. If you waste your mental energy focusing on that you miss the Enlightenment. It's a lot like panning for gold, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 10:51 PM

Something is perplexing us. Is it common for some oldtime Catters to wander into threads, leave a barbed (mean spirited) and sometimes personally directed comment then wander off again?

Just something us newbies have noticed, spats aside, that we sometimes get clobbered by a veteran Cat, for no apparent reason.

I missed this thread earlier... Well, yes, every newcomer here has probably experienced what you are alluding to, I know I did when I first arrived here. And a lot of us oldtimers sometimes get combative and snippy over this or that too. It's the club thing. You will find that the same thing happens in 3-D life too, if you're a newcomer to a club or a long-established social scene of some kind.

The veterans will share some strange humor that you don't understand at all. You may think they are quarreling when they are just goofing around, pretending to pick on each other...just doing it for laughs...and that may be clear to them, but not to a newcomer.

Then there are certain old feuds or sore points (specially in politics) that come up again and again between certain individuals, and this can trigger some nasty exchanges. Anything, for instance, that has to do with discussing Israel and the Arab world...or the Democrats and the Republicans...or the Irish troubles...or USA foreign policy...or religion and atheism...OUCH!!! All that stuff is just like a minefield. One is often best off to just avoid discussing it at all, but some of us can't resist. Any newbie who gets involved in one of those threads may get a shock at the stuff that starts flying back and forth across no-man's-land.

My best advice is, try to maintain a sense of humor as well as a sense of detachment, and as time goes by you will get more comfortable with the whole scene, hopefully, and you'll also begin to understand the "in jokes" and more bizarre stuff that goes on here. Then you won't be a newbie any longer.

Tip: Amos and Rapaire and I insult each other frequently on certain threads. We do it strictly for laughs, because we're friends. It's just a big long running joke, that's all. Same goes for the ludicrous stuff that Catspaw49 posts with all the bad language. He's a lovely guy, and we all know it, and he pretends to be a rude idiot because it's funny...since he really isn't like that at all in real life.

And there are other things like that going on too. It takes awhile to figure them out, that's all.

There's also some genuinely mean-spirited stuff that goes around now and then here, and that can hurt. But remember this: it's only the Internet, so don't sweat it. Take a look at the vicious and stupid stuff that gets posted under so many Youtube videos by people who can't even spell half-decently or express themselves in a semi-human manner, and you will begin to appreciate that Mudcat Cafe isn't so bad after all...for the Internet. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Genie
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:03 PM

Hi, VT,
Grisabella (at my house) says welcome to the Mudcat house.   She's still trying to teach me to be jellicle.

I got my nose swatted (pointedly but not too painfully) when I first ventured to post here, being quite new to online message boards, period.   And occasionally I get swipes taken at me (as I'm sure happens to everyone else) -- sometimes perhaps with the swatter not even realizing I was the target.   But as other cats have said, you just swat back, say ouch and move on, or maybe even laugh it off.   Very few catters try to be mean (even though a few do seem to get off on curmudging just for its own sake).

Oh, and even without the censorship, I find Mudcat far more friendly and civilized than a lot of other sites I've visited.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM

This was the first online message board or internet forum I EVER participated in, and I sure didn't know what to expect at the beginning, but for the most part it's been a good experience. It has taught me quite a bit about not letting my buttons get pushed too easily by people I can't see and may never meet.... ;-) (though I have met a few of them since)

There's also a sort of multicultural thing happening here...there's the UK crowd, who are one notable group...then there are the Americans (quite different from the UK people)...then there are the Canadians (of which I am one)...then there's the Aussies...and the Irish...and then there are all the rest of the people scattered around hither and yon around the world. Each identifiable group seems to have its own particular foibles, issues, hangups, and ways of having fun. It's hard to figure out at first, and no one has provided a racing form or a program to explain it all...so you've got to sort of learn as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:33 PM

Reminds me of "Life is not a movie, there is no script.":-) Or something like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Jan 09 - 11:37 PM

I forgot to say, VTam, at first I thought this was going to be about children coming to the website, as we do have a children's section and some have been known to call their children Mudkittens.:-)

Also, I am one of the moderators, what we call "joe clones" because we once started out as that. Joe being "Joe Offer." Please don't hesitate to PM me if you ever have any concerns or problems.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 12:03 AM

Jim, in your comment of 03 Jan 09 - 01:52 PM, you wrote that that "the impolite people won't change their habits and won't go away". Perhaps that's true, though I suppose that there is always hope that a person might change his or her ways. However, I disagree with your position that it's always the best to ignore and not respond back to an impolite person.

Just as in face to face situations, it seems to me that how a person responds to online "impoliteness" should be determined on a case by case basis. Sometimes it's best to let a remark go. At other times it's best to address the remark without anger, perhaps with {attempts at} humor or wit, or perhaps with a firm, succient comment. Other times, it's best to let your controlled anger show. }Note that I don't think it's ever best to let your anger take control of you}.

There are any number of other ways that a person could intelligently address what she or he considers to be an attack. In my opinion, sometimes it may be the best choice to let the attacking person or persons know that you will and can defend yourself=with {hopefully} well chosen words.

I believe that there are times that it's best to let the person attacking you know that you choose not to respond to him or her on that thread at that time or perhaps at any other time on that thread. Sometimes it's best to just leave the thread. I have used all of these strategies at one time or another. And if a person follows you from one thread to another bringing up the same or similar points that you chose not to argue, then-based on all kinds of variables, you have to decide what is the best action or non-action for you to take. strategy

In a Mudcat thread I started a few years ago about responses to what I {and others} considered to be racism on Mudcat threads, I pointed out that it is important to any person so targeted to know that there are people who that person can count on for support-people who proactively spoke out in a supportive manner. It seems to me that at least some of the time, if there is a person being targeted on a Mudcat thread, because of race, ethnicity, nationality, personality, religion, or for what ever reason, other people on that thread should not ignore that maltreatment. Nor should they always wait for that person who is being targeted to defend himself or herself.

It seems to me that it reflects poorly on our community if the burden of addressing ill treatment always falls on the person or persons being targeted. Certainly, if this were the case, I would not want to be a part of such a community. Just as Mudcatters has made it known by their comments within threads that they don't tolerate racism and prejudice, I believe that when we Mudcatters, {veteran members, veteran guests, and newbies} see a person being treated rudely or spitefully on public threads by another persons or persons , we shouldn't just try to ignore that behaviour, but should speak out, and let the person/s doing that know that such behaviour is unacceptable.

Sometimes this might work, and sometimes not. Sometimes pms to the offending person might be warranted and/or alerting Mudcat moderators about the incident or patterns of incidences that we have noticed. But if people don't never speak out on the public threads when such offensive behaviour occurs, then that sends negative messages not only to other oeople posting to the thread, but also to people reading that thread now and potentially in the future.

I pray and hope that I make the right choices when faced with what I consider to be others' negative statements and behaviour. And, if I realize that I've make the wrong choice/s, I pray and hope that I am woman enough to own up to my mistakes, both publicly and privately through the pm system, and that I do whatever I can to rectify my misjudgement/s.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: open mike
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 01:00 AM

some trolls and flamers come here just to scratch around in the cat box i think. and scatter the litter around. some times there are offensive comments thrown about, too. There used to be a "help"
forum where you could send alerts about offensive or rude comments.

non-members are still allowed to post to threads, but cannot enter the chat room or send personal messages. They're off limits in some
places due to the trouble they can, and do, cause.

hang in there and take it all with grain of salt.

and, oh, by the way, welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 04:25 AM

Thank you to everyone who has contributed. As I said it is not only at me and not always specifically directed negativity. All your words are encouraging.

It might be useful to have a link to moderators for the newbies in the FAQ area. We don't know who they are. Maybe it is there already. My plan for today is to go through the FAQ area more thoroughly. It is so easy to jump into this forum with both feet, not realising you may be landing on someone's gouty toe.

....if a person follows you from one thread to another bringing up the same or similar points....

Azizi, that's a bit scary. One who contacted me mentioned being stalked and felt racism was suspected. I am not sure I understood this person correctly and there wasn't much exchange. Just one of those things that lended to the creation of this thread.

For my part, I have to agree with the light-handed approach to moderation of the threads. If I felt that moderators were cleaning up after us, it would feel too much like big brother is watching and the free exchange would die.

When opinions are stated in even impolite, and/or bigoted ways, we all find out about each other. As well, we learn something about ourselves through our reactions.

This has to be the best tool for helping us open closed minds (our own as well as another's), and for teaching us to not only tolerate but embrace everyone's right to opinion. Maybe we will even change our opinions as we learn.

In future, if I feel put upon, I will try to remember to check out the person's other posts, learn who they are in context to others before I react. I will offer the same advice to others who contact me with anxieties.

I hope I grow up to be a gentle, helpful, Jellicle Cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Sleepy Rosie
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:44 AM

"In future, if I feel put upon, I will try to remember to check out the person's other posts, learn who they are in context to others before I react. I will offer the same advice to others who contact me with anxieties."

That's not such a bad idea, because there are a lot of people that are hard to identify. Though strong characters are fairly recognisable from their distinctive and consistant style and thus not too tricky to read (implying they are therefore also fairly easy to avoid), there are akin to most fora, still far more anonymous sounding members who while they do not appear to have much of interest (either silly or sensible) to contribute, nevertheless suddenly appear out of seeming no-where for a quite unexpected sarcastic little snipe at someone else.

This is by far one of the the most dull-witted forms of 'contribution' going on any internet forum, and at best implies a complacent self-satisfied contentment with having hung around like a limp sock long enough to have earned the right to ocassionally bitch. It is also cowardly, because these contributers are not only dull, but too nervous to express a genuine thought or opinion about anything, and thereby risk icurring the same reaction upon themselves.

If I get flamed, there are about four ways I tend to deal with it:
The First is by far the most usual and sensible, and involves ignoring and walking away (this is newby me being good).
The Second is referring them to Jane Austen for no-doubt well needed lessons in how to compose a truly witty sarcastic put-down. (me irritated now and offering an open invitation to flame war goto 4) The third is to tell them to "Fuck-Off and go flame someone who actually gives a shit." (annoyed but far too bored for 2, Goto 1)
And the Fourth, by far the most exhausting and childish, is to actively demonstrate what a bore they are by engaging in flame war, verbally pull their pants down and do a little jig around them (only ever engaged in for the sheer bloody minded hell of it of course, and when no longer a newby...)

Most of the Catdudes that I've virtually rubbed up against thus far, have I must say been great. Lots of good humour, lots of positive support for my new interest, lots of friendly welcome.

It is however a shame that some of the most strongly helpful and experience-based advice I recieved for some of my early questions, was via PM's directly to me in order to bypass the childish squabblings in the flaming gallery of the upstairs public forum.

And I've had a few similar PM responses to questions which while I am most thankful for the advice and supportive gestures, it is a pity that the 'flaming gallery' actually undermines its own agenda, which is one might have supposed, to collectively share and exchange constructive thoughts on the subject at hand..? Eh ho!

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: Azizi
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 08:48 AM

To Virginia Tam and others,

I usually don't spend a great deal of time thinking about what I write on Mudcat threads during the actual act of writing. Though Mudcat has a "Preview" feature, I confess that I rarely use it. Usually I prefer to proof read my serious posts one time or a couple of times before I hit the submit button. Unfortunately, sometimes this had led to typos, grammatical errors, and even cut & paste gobblygook being left in my submitted posts. Sometimes if I catch them, I consider these errors of sufficient importance that I will post a correction. Other times, I don't post any corrections, but let my errors alone, as further testimony to my humanness.

However, the fact that I don't reflect a great deal on the serious comments that I write while I'm writing it, doesn't mean that these comments are written impulsively. On the contrary, I spend a considerable amount of time thinking about these "heavy duty" topics before I write my posts. I consider the topic of this discussion to be one of those "heavy duty"{important} topics.

I like to think of Mudcat as a community, and I like to comment on the public threads as though I'm engaged in conversations with a specific person or with specific people. While doing so, I'm aware that there are other people {lurkers} who are likely to read my comments immediately after I hit the submit button. In addition, because these public threads are archived, there are also people who may potentially read my comments and the comments in these threads that written by other people days, weeks, months, and years from now. Therefore writing on Mudcat is an opportunity, a challenge, and a responsibility.

I agree with Little Hawk's 03 Jan 09 - 11:16 PM comments that "There's also a sort of multicultural thing happening here... Each identifiable group seems to have its own particular foibles, issues, hangups, and ways of having fun. It's hard to figure out at first, and no one has provided a racing form or a program to explain it all...so you've got to sort of learn as you go along".

I know that I have been shaped by the experiences that I have had and continue to have as an African American woman growing up in the 1950s and 1960s in the New Jersey and living since the late 1960s in Western Pennsylvania. I mention my racial identity online in part because it adds context {and perhaps sometimes validity] to my comments about certain subjects such as race and African American culture/s. I also mention my race in some of my posts to this forum {and I encourage others to mention their race/nationality} as part of the demographical information that I {and I believe they should} document during the collection of cultural products such as children's playground rhymes and other folk songs. However, I do not mention my race when I am posting about topics when I consider that demographical information to be unneccesary {for example in the thread that I started on "Favorite Religious Songs" or humorous threads}. Of course, other reasonable people-including other African Americans-might disagree with me about whether mentioning race is important at all, or is necessary all of the times that I mention it.

That said, I believe that part of what Little Hawks referred to as Mudcat's multicultural mix has sometimes resulted in my misunderstanding other people's motivations, statements, and humor {humour}. And this multicultural mix has sometimes resulted in other people misunderstanding my motivations, statements, and humor.

One of the things that continues to surprise me and one of my deepest regrets about this Mudcat community is that there are so few people of color who post on this forum. Because of the cultural complexity that Little Hawk referenced, let me "break down" {define, provide clarifying information} about what I just wrote. By "people of color", I mean people who are of Black or Brown African descent, people who are Asian, people who are Latino/a, people who are Native American, people who are indigenous Australians, and other people who are non-White. And by "so few people of color on Mudcat", I mean people of those racial backgrounds/ethnicities who publicly acknowledge their racial/ethnic identity ["ethnic" is used here in the USA sense of "Latino/a"/"Hispanic"}. I know that there is at least one other African American who sometimes post on this forum because that person pmed me to share this information with me. In that private message, s/he indicated that s/he did not want to share any information about her/his racial identity in the public threads. I responded back that I regretted that decision, but to each his or her own.

I respect that confidential information just as I respect all confidential information that is shared through private messages. However, if there were more people of color who indicated their racial/ethnic identity in their public posts, and shared their perspectives on the racial topics that invariably are the focus of Mudcat threads {sometimes started by me, but often started by other Mudcatters and guests}, then-even if I didn't always agree with those posters-I think Mudcat would be a richer community.

All of this leads me, Virginia Tam, to the comment in your latest post to this thread that "[a Mudat member] who contacted me [in a private message] mentioned being stalked and felt racism was suspected". First of all, when you said that an individual pmed you and indicated that she or he felt that racism might be the reason why he or she was being stalked, my first reaction is to substitute the word "prejudice" for "racism" as I know that I didn't pm you to sat this, and as it would very much surprise me if the Mudcat member who pmed you was another person of color.

My reading of Mudcat threads leads me to believe that some people outside of the USA, or maybe also within the USA use the word "racism" when I {and perhaps most Black people} would use the word "prejudice". Or perhaps some people have a wider definition of "race" than I do, in that they may consider White ethnic groups such as Irish, Polish, and Italians as a race separate from English, and French people. If a person pre-judges another individual or groups of individuals because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, and/or sexual orientation, I would consider that to be "prejudice" and not "racism". [There are, of course, ethnicities within African American and other Diaspora African populations, but addressing that would provide too much detail to this already long winded post].

I hasten to say that I believe that prejudice is just as bad as racism. I also believe that no one should be stalked on this forum or anywhere else online or offline. But I know it happens. When it does, a person has to decide what to do herself and himself on a case by case basis. And hopefully that person will have clear support from other people who are aware by reading these public threads that stalking is occurring. And also that person will have clear intervention and support from Mudcat moderators.

I'll write more on the subject of Mudcat moderators and other related and unrelated matters in my next post to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 04 Jan 09 - 09:25 AM

I try not to superimpose my understanding of what has been told to me and I also do my best to report as faithfully and as conscientiously as I can.

I do not know what the colour is, of the person who contacted me. And it was this person who suspected "racism" (their word, not mine) was the reason s/he was being stalked thru threads. I will not give anymore information than this, as it was told to me in confidence, not to mention it may identify and or inflame individuals.

I am now very sorry to have started this thread. It appears it will go in horrible directions I never meant it to.

And this I think is the biggest travesty, sorry that the forum does not have more people of colour and that some here do not wish it to be known. What alost opportunity.

Maybe this is not the place for me.