Class-obsessed folkies

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 08:59 PM

Is this a competition to find the most unlikely billing on the Kennedy stage?
Shirley Collins + the Albions has all the hallmarks of a particularly gruesome horror film.
Why not add a Mr Fox reunion as support?
And Ewan MacColl + Alex Campbell as a duo doing First Time Ever?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:31 PM

Costumes have always been with us in the folk song genre. Whether it was Dylan, a middle class kid who donned down-at-the-heels garb as part of his persona or or the middle class boys and girls I used to know in coffee houses in the 1950's who favored work clothing, fatigues, Bolshevik attire, peasant blouses, etc., etc., to show their "solidarity" with the disadvantaged. I suppose if their was not an awareness of "class," none of this would have made any sense - maybe it doesn't make sense anyway.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:16 PM

Whatever the relevance of class in society as a whole (and entire theses have and are no doubt still being written on this), and whatever the origins of folk music itself, the modern folk scene is more or less classless.

When I go to a folk event I find am mixing with people from all sorts of different backgrounds. In most cases, it is impossible to tell which, since people tend to dress down, and these days accent is not as dependable indication of class as it once was. Then there is the further complication that some people who to an observer might appear from their profession and lifestyle to be middle class nevertheless may choose to describe themselves as working class, while some from a middle class background may choose to present themselves as working class. Usually, the only clue is the cars in the carpark (but wealth isn't necessarily an indication of class, so even that isn't reliable).

More to the point, it doesn't matter. We are all united in our love of the music.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Surreysinger
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 07:13 PM

"Shirley and The Albions and Ashley would have to do a solo piece.."
Ruth, I can only echo your sigh ,as luck would clearly not enter into it all ... a total non-starter if ever there was one!!!! just shows how little LC knows about more recent folk history as well ?

Leveller - methinks you either jest or are deliberately trying to stir things up!!
"There's little doubt that the Edwardian folk song collectors were from the middle classes and were seeking to protect the songs from the 'mis-use' by the very people they were collecting from"
There's every doubt in the world about that ... they were actually seeking to preserve the songs from extinction, as in their perception the singers who were the guardians and repositories of the items in question were ageing and dying out. Some of them also had the idea that these tunes could be used to form the basis of "English music" ... Sharp being one of those ... but to actually "protect" the songs from those who were singing them ... a bit far fetched, methinks!

As to the quotes from Sharp, I think you'll find that he changed his mind more than once on his definitions of what folksong and "the folk" were ... depending on his current theory of the moment.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 06:53 PM

I can never read anything about Ashley Hutchins without remembering seeing him dancing with Kathy LeSurf (sp?) at Fylde FF. Hhe was a bit taller than him and wearing a very low cut frock. As his head got closer to her breast it looked like she had three boobs...

DeG
(Who is as folicaly challenged as Mr H:-) )

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:53 PM

Couple of thoughts, re some posts I have read in this thread.
The income gap was mentioned, i.e., the disparity between the rich and the poor.
I would just like to point out that this has nothing to do with class whatsoever, and there are as many poor people all through the social spectrum. With the largest constituent being old age pensioners. of all classes.
WLD made a comment about the old school tie aspect of the upper classes [sic]. I would respectfully remind him, and others, that we all pull strings if we can, to get influence in life. Be it a parking space, or a gig, or even, perish the thought' a discount on goods or services.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

"Shirley and The Albions and Ashley would have to do a solo piece.."

*sigh*

Good luck with that.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:20 PM

Anyway, time I left here again. I only came over because of Mudcat related problems on another site and now use my Laptop to access here as I blocked it from my desktop PC. I'm beginning to remember why I took this action.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:15 PM

There's little doubt that the Edwardian folk song collectors were from the middle classes and were seeking to protect the songs from the 'mis-use' by the very people they were collecting from

You mean collecting them prevented the sources from singing them as-is and/or took away their rights to pass them down as-is to their friends and family?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:07 PM

"During past centuries, when most "traditional" folk songs first appeared, today's class structure simply didn't exist. Yes, sure, there were class distinctions then as there are now, but society as a whole was quite different.

Prior to the mid 19th century, the "average" person, or "most people," lived in small agricultural communities. There was not such thing as a proletariat, or true "working class," in those days. A peasant is not exactly the same thing as an industrial worker ~ they're exploited by the ruling minority in entirely different manners"

It was certainly different - divisions were even more brutal and extreme, especially after the Enclosure Acts when the number of capital crimes was extended to even the most minor offence. As far back as 1381 the Peasants' Revolt sought to abolish serfdom - and almost, but not quite, succeeded. Similarly, the Civil War and the Commonwealth temporarily abolished that bastion of the class system, the monarchy.

To see how popular song and theatre reflected the opinions and conditions of the 'voiceless' and uneducated majority in the 17th and 18th century, read Christopher Hill's 'Liberty Against the Law'.

There's little doubt that the Edwardian folk song collectors were from the middle classes and were seeking to protect the songs from the 'mis-use' by the very people they were collecting from. In 1907, Sharp declared 'In less than a decade, English folk singing will be extinct. I have learned that it is, as a rule, only a waste of time to call upon singers under the age of sixty. Their songs are nearly all modern: if, by chance, they happen to sing an old one, it is so infected with modern spirit that it is hardly worth the gathering.' Sharp's definition of 'the folk' is 'those whose mental development has been due not to any formal system of training or education, but solely due to environment, communal association, and direct contact with the ups and downs of life.' So, you could say, class has been an obsession amongst folk afficionados for quite some time.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 04:04 PM

I think I should be in charge of arranging The New Tradition Gigs.

I was afraid of that.

LOL


Course, we'd have to invite...Shirley and The Albions and Ashley would have to do a solo piece..and then we could all sit around and have some Adventures in the Tradition

Yes, I think it's all starting to come together..

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:54 PM

I always thought that anonymous meant "Of unknown or undeclared source or authorship".

That sounds reasonable to me but I was not aware "anonymous" was a criteria for songs or tunes getting into oral traditions. Are you explaining to me that if, I don't know Planxty Irwin, had been passed down from my great grandfather to my grandfather and you recorded it as learned from my father and we later learn it was written by Carolan that the tune wouldn't have entered an oral tradition after all?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: red max
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

Thanks for all the responses, some interesting stuff among the regrettable troll-feeding. My question about the working class origin of trad songs was probably a little provocative. After all, who wrote the song is a lot less important than who chose keep on singing it and to pass it on to the next generation.

I would say that in Britain the class structure is something that fascinates us more than it restricts us. I do think that a lot of attitudes on the working/middle class divide are based on rather vague and perhaps outdated concepts of what the terms mean. Jim has mentioned that he's an electrician. Is that a lower class occupation? I'd say decidedly not: it's highly skilled and a good living can be made. The idea that white collar jobs are middle class is surely no longer valid. Wouldn't a job in a call centre be the modern example of the lower class occupation? They're not horny-handed sons of toil, but they presumably can appreciate a song of a downtrodden collier just as much as a plumber or plasterer.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: bubblyrat
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:06 PM

That would be me above, by the way -----forgot to sign in !!(Too much rum for too long ).

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 03:03 PM

I really don't know what all the fuss is about.I remember going to Sidmouth in 1965,as a 17 year old,and being utterly enthralled at discovering that there was such a thing as the EFDSS,which I joined at the first opportunity.At that time,and for some years afterwards,I was a member of the lowest known order of human existence, ie a Naval Rating ( it was widely held that a Sailor was someone who married a prostitute and dragged her down to his level ),but I was nevertheless gratified to find that the "Folk World " included such luminaries as Cyril Tawney,and,later,Shep Woolley,and others of a similar anti-naval- authority frame of mind.Indeed, their songs , and Irish Rebel Songs,(sadly no longer politically viable),were generally very well received by Higher Authority in that august organisation,viz The Royal Navy-----one of the highlights of my musical career in "Her Majesty's Imperial Navy " was performing in front of a distinguished gathering of brass hats and gold braid (and their Ladies) at the home of the Commander-in-Chief, Far East Fleet, in Singapore,at which event there was much drinking of the Gin and joining-in of the choruses !! My theory has always been that,in a class-dominated environment, (and the Royal Navy was ALWAYS that !! ), it was considered better for those with a real or even just perceived,grievance,to sing about it ,even SHARE it ,in the guise of "entertainment", rather than have it metamorphose into something more serious later on.As for the Army----Well, no soldier of the Peninsular War would ever have dared to call the Duke of Wellington "Old Hookey" to his face, but they could SING it as much as they liked (and they doubtless did ).By and large, it was a good system ,and long may it continue ( as, and if,necessary ).And long may "Folkies" everywhere transcend the barriers, real or imagined, of "Class"----I always have !!!Try it, Lizzie---it's much more fun than moaning about it !

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:59 PM

I think I should be in charge of arranging The New Tradition Gigs.

I was afraid of that.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:52 PM

"Beyond that, as far as I'm aware, music in oral tradition contains works by titled people, works written for wealthier patrons, works by professional entertainers as well as works by many we don't know anything about."
Really? Perhaps you might like to name a few - I always thought that anonymous meant "Of unknown or undeclared source or authorship".
I can almost imagine Ewan MacColl singing "I'm an honest working man, and I drive a Pickfords van".
Why not; for somebody who grew up in 19320s-30s Salford I would have thought a Pickford's Van would have been a luxury.
Sorry Red Max - my "bollocks" wasn't aimed at you particularly - it pre-empted bloody arrogant nonesense like:
"A significant number of folk songs are too well crafted to have been penned by the unschooled."
I'm afraid if feeling a little class-fragile at present, possibly due to the fact that the suggestion that folk music may not have been made by the folk came a little too close to a proposal by a couple of forelock-tuggers that members of the royal family are entitled to indulge in racist abuse.
The Vaughan Williams Memorial Library is the jewel in the crown of EFDSS. Despite this fact, it is underfunded, under-used and under-appreciated (sometimes by EFDSS).
The idea that somebody won't use its facilities because Seth Lakeman can't get a booking at C#House says all that needs to be said about the individual concerned. Persumably she was a regular before Lakeman visitated us - or wouldn't they book Michael Jackson either?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

PS - but the origins of folk music are indeed in the peasantry.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

Poppagator's post is very interesting. I would suggest that for UK purposes the separation of classes into the roletariat and the bourgeoisie is insufficient - and he puts his finger on the button.

THe UK has a long- standing history of the aristocracy ruling the peasantry, and teh artisan came late in the day to the equation.

Now there is still an aristocracy, there is still a peasantry although it is scarce, there is an underclass a working class and a middle class as well. Some of the divisions are by wealth and some by behaviour and speech habits.

In the USA, as I understand it, it's very simple, it's a plutocracy.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:43 PM

Ah, Stephen "Tin Tin" Duffy, I presume: early Duran Duran, and in the 80s led The Lilac Time. Surely that's pop culture enough for anyone!

I have hung out in the CSH bar with members of Blur and the Beautiful South. They seemed to find it an accessible and welcoming place.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:40 PM

Here in the USA, we are constantly informed by politicians pushing the melting pot ideal that America has no classes. So, pardon me for sometimes having noted that the rich get richer here while the poor are poorer as a matter of course. If my noting some blatant realities all around me means that, in this country where posessing posessions is a main obsession, some might say that I am possessed by obsessive obsessiveness, well, so be it.

Personally, I do think the Wobblies had/posessed it right from 1905 on...

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 02:10 PM

I'm reminded of a very bizarre (or do I mean eclectic?) night at 2 Regents Park Road when a banjo playing friend dragged me down for a session which turned out to be a meeting of the English Old-Timey chaps. Meanwhile, upstairs, Swaddling Folk was in full swing, with some 80s popstar called Tin-Tin as headliner. That's how I got to meet members of St Etienne. Surely even an overgrown teenager from Sidmouth would have found something to like among that.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:54 PM

Very good point, Diane. If you don't like the way things are being done, Lizzie, why not become an events promoter? Hire the House, or the venue of your choice. Show the rest of us how it's done.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:51 PM

Jim Moray is booked at CSH this season. Hardly a standard bearer for the kinds of values you accuse the society of perpetuating.

Just saying. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:42 PM

Anyone can hire one of the halls at C# and put on an event.
What's stopping you?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:35 PM

Tell you what, the day Cecil Sharp House puts on a Seth Lakeman and Show of Hands gig...

I suspect the majority of venues in the world have never put on a Show of Hands or Seth Lakemnan gig. Does that mean that the majority of venues in the world are repressing folk music?

Out of interest I have sung at C# - In the folk club on a singers night. Along with one or two other people of course:-) There is one thing I could guarantee - If SoH or SL turned up on a singers night they would get as good a chance as anyone else.

Get a grip on reality for heavens sake!

DeG

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

Kate Rusby can come to...and even bring Ronan Keating, if she wants to. :0) Heck, this is going to be quite a Gig! I think I should be in charge of arranging The New Tradition Gigs...Tom Bliss, he has to come as well, and The Pipers Sons, and Tom Napper..and Duncan McFarlane and his Band, the electric one, because they'll rock the socks off Cecil and Maudie!

Wow, what a gig! Ooh, and Martyn Joseph..the Demon Barbers, and their Roadshow, they can leap and clog and clog and leap, and naked Morris Boysies..and ooh..all sorts of wondrous goings on! They'll be queueing around the block for this gig, just like they do for Seth.

We could ask those Loose Women too, they'll make it rock.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:34 PM

There was a time when Martin Carthy (among others) would climb through C#'s basement bog window when they couldn't afford the entrance fee even for a singaround. He and Mr Swarbrick, as well as Tim Hart & Maddy Prior, then began to gig and were soon known as duos nationwide. I started working there and lo! who practically moved into the sound library while getting material together for Steeleye Span but Martin, Tim & Maddy. Ashley was already ensconced because Fairport had researched Liege & Lief there.

Studying music really does get you nowhere, doesn't it? Still, Martin needn't worry any more about paying to get in as his daughter's now da management . . .

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:32 PM

A significant number of folk songs are too well crafted to have been penned by the unschooled. Frequently, those who were educated were better equipped to advocate for people in need than the needy themselves. Given a social conscience, they did so in song and story. Dickens, to cite one example, was such an advocate in that he depicted the lives of the poor in such a way as to awaken a sense of social responsibility in his day.

A significant portion of what we think of as folk music in the U.S. emerged or re-emerged out of the crucible of the Great Depression and the Dust Bowl, and Socialism and the labor movement were both seen by many as a solution to the ills that surrounded and harmed them. Woodie Guthrie, Pete Seeger, Josh White and many others were of that time and had a ready audience. Much of that music, especially the blues, came from uneducated or under-educated people. Much of it was older work, re-discovered. But, a significant contribution came from writers and performers whose work was underwritten by Roosevelt's "New Deal" support of the arts during that time. The result was what mattered, not the social standing of the artist.

Folk songs speak for themselves, no matter their origins. They have no "class." We assign this standing based on how we view them through our diminuitive personal prisms.

Then, there is the pure entertainment or amusement factor. A huge amount of music, literature and theatre exists mainly to divert attention from daily sufferings and anxieties for a time. That need is as old as communication itself.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:14 PM

"Tell you what, the day Cecil Sharp House puts on a Seth Lakeman and Show of Hands gig ... "

Do I detect a 'school girl' crush on Mr Lakeman, Lizzie? Is this what your incessant ranting is all about? Could it be that you have encountered a few people who don't happen to share your 'pash'? Poor Seth, that's all I can say!

Er....Shimrod, what makes you say that? I've had that thrown at me many a time, it doesn't work. I don't fancy Seth Lakeman, I'm 53 and old enough to his Mummy. I do however have a passion for his *music* because I love the driving beat of it. I also love the way that young people love his music too, and the way in which so many of them are starting to discover folk music *because* of Seth.

Likewise with Show of Hands. And nope I don't fancy them either, not that they *aren't* fanciable, 'cos they are, but that is not and never has been why I like their music...and indeed the first time I ever heard them I couldn't even see them. They too though have brought in thousands to folk music.

As I said, the day those who run Cecil Sharp House choose to let down their intellectual barriers and hobnob with the likes of us common Seth and SoH fans, no longer deeming themselves above the riff raff, then and only then will I feel that the locks and keys around 'their' music have been thrown away forever.

Ooh, and when Seth and Eliza are singing together, and whooping it up at Cecil Sharpy House, have Reg Meuross and Martin Carthy up there as well, because they went down a storm at Sidmouth. Reg being the New Tradition, Martin the Old, but open to the New...

I'm not interested in snotty folk who think they're better than others, or who think they are more deserving to love the music purely because they have studied it. What a loads of old cobblers!

From Ralph:
Quote Fom Lizzie

"I have no desire to 'study' the songs"

Anyone want to add anything???
Mmmm Didn't think so....

Yup, *exactly* the attitude I've been talking about.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:12 PM

A former regional funding body worker told me that the take-up of grants for tradarts-related activity was far lower than that for film, theatre and multimedia for one very startling reason: the "f*lkies" were by and large incapable of compiling a coherent application even when told, monosyllabically, how to go about it.

There are, on the other hand, those artists who produce their own CDs, handle their own publicity and admin, put in the effort to set up their own tours and are respected the length and breadth of the land for their commitment and musicianship.

Can't help thinking this is a microcosm of what might be viewed as the lower orders of society: the feckless workshy versus the hardworking artisan.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Will Fly, out gigging
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 01:00 PM

Ralphie - you wouldn't, by any chance, be telling us all about Lucy Broadwood in Lewes very shortly, would you?

I shall put on my best librarian's specs, wear a skirt from Laura Ashley and have my hair done up in a bun. And when you start to speak, I'll do a loud "Shhh!" (Mind you, I'll have to shave the beard off).

Anything for a bit of attention... :-)

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:59 PM

During past centuries, when most "traditional" folk songs first appeared, today's class structure simply didn't exist. Yes, sure, there were class distinctions then as there are now, but society as a whole was quite different.

Prior to the mid 19th century, the "average" person, or "most people," lived in small agricultural communities. There was not such thing as a proletariat, or true "working class," in those days. A peasant is not exactly the same thing as an industrial worker ~ they're exploited by the ruling minority in entirely different manners.

In the 21st century, the average person works for a business of some sort, more or less as a "wage slave," whether one's emploper is a huge faceless corporation, a friendly mon-and-pop small business, or even one's own sole-propietorship (in which case, your clients can become your demanding and unreasonable "bosses."). Because most of our jobs are "white collar" office jobs with no heavy lifting, we all tend to think of ourselves as "middle class," even though our paycheck-to-paycheck existence may be very financially precarious.

It is undoubtedly true that Britain is more "class-obsessed" than the US, with a much deeper psychological involvement in an age-old class system.

In the US, everyone sees themselves as "middle class," but there are gigantic differences between the "lower-middle-class" person who has to think twice about spending every penny, and the "upper-middle-class" guy who can charge anything at any time on one of a dozen plastic cards, who can buy each of his kids a new car on the day they become old enough to drive, etc.

In both societies, however ~ indeed, in ALL current-day societies ~ our ideas about social and economic "class" are obsolete, and getting moreso everyday.

One of the above comments pretty much sums up the real issue: if a person has led an overprivileged life and has no experience of oppression, injustice, etc., that person is ill-equipped to sing much of our traditional repertoire with much genuine expressiveness. However, the ways in which a person can acquire an adequate "school-of-hard-knocks" education are quite different now from what they have been in the past.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:54 PM

The whole point of most folksongs is to shake to shake your fist at an indifferent God and a cruel world. okay there are love songs also.

But if you can write a letter to your MP. Even better phone the MP up, because you were at Eton together. have your love poetry published by Faber and Faber and get it discussed on BBC's front row - you don't really need folksongs.

Not like the people who made them did.

Not like the people who will be out there somewhere making them now - without an arts council grant, an album deal and a decent agent putting the tour together.

Class concious.....moi?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:38 PM

The Librarian's Song

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:34 PM

Librarians.....Scum of the Earth!!
Thet wouldn't know the right way to sit on a lavatory (copywright. Mr Bean!)

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Will Fly, out gigging
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM

Librarians - always causing trouble - John Conolly, June Tabor, the list goes on.......

And on - adsum!

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:57 AM

Hi Guest Jon.
Nicely put.
Yes, I'm a performer, I'm also a listener.
I do not judge others.
Our music is actually classless.
But, it doesn't make it anodine.
And, thought and research is vital to move it on.
Thanks R

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Zen
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:52 AM

The Statesiders must be having a good old chuckle at all this Brit class obsession stuff...

Zen

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:45 AM

Some of you may find that unbelievable, some may not. I'm not a musician, merely a member of the audience, and therefore I look at things from an entirely different perspective to some

(I seem to be disagreeing with Ralph a bit here but...)

Lizzie, many occupy both positions. Some may be professional performers and listeners. Others may be found hiding in sessions, singarounds and be listeners. Some may even be found performing, "hiding" say in a session and listeners! The positions need not be exclusive, nor should your position as just a listener be taken to mean someone who sings and plays might not have also have a lister perspective... it's quite possible it was being a listener that inspired them to learn the other bits.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Marje
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:38 AM

I'm afraid things have moved on, Bernard, since your teaching expeiences, and not for the better.

I know that in some - possibly all or most - local authority instrumental teaching, the pupils are no longer selected by musical ability or even by teachers picking out their favourite pupils. Now the pupils all have to pay for lessons, as well as for instrument hire or purchase, and for their music, so selection is effectively made on the grounds of income and aspiration (which broadly coincides with middle, as opposed to working/lower, class).The LEA music services are supposed to be self-financing, which makes much of what they can offer unavailable to children whose parents are poor or who don't value music.

Sorry that's scarcely on topic - except maybe to show that there is still a cultural gap between different groups in our society.

Marje

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:34 AM

Quote Fom Lizzie

"I have no desire to 'study' the songs"

Anyone want to add anything???
Mmmm Didn't think so....

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:30 AM

"Tell you what, the day Cecil Sharp House puts on a Seth Lakeman and Show of Hands gig ... "

Do I detect a 'school girl' crush on Mr Lakeman, Lizzie? Is this what your incessant ranting is all about? Could it be that you have encountered a few people who don't happen to share your 'pash'? Poor Seth, that's all I can say!

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:29 AM

PS
Lizzie won't have a clue about that!
Neither will our US overlords!!!

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:28 AM

Oh Bugger.
Veneer Of The Week.......Memories!!!!
LOL!

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies - Off topic
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:26 AM

"And then drive through the night getting home at 4am"

What do you do to keep your interest up now that the 'Veneer of the Week' has gone?

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:24 AM

The music is 'locked away' by the attitude, not by keys and chains.

Again - examples please.

DeG

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:19 AM

Belittle who?
Not one of the artists you have named. Respect to all.
It's just that your lack of knowledge, and blind sycophancy is incredibly cloying.
Where exactly do you think that your artists get their material?
Oh My..... by research.....There's a thing.
If Eliza and Seth wanted to play together. Great.
If they don't.....Also great.
What has that got to do with us?
Or, anybody?
Who cares?
I've played with Filarfolket, and Mike Waterson.....So???
Who cares?
There is a real difference between an artist and an audient.
And I think I know which one you are.
Now, Take up an instrument, and put in the hours/years...

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:14 AM

Tell you what, the day Cecil Sharp House puts on a Seth Lakeman and Show of Hands gig, is the day I'll step inside its Hallowed Entrance. Put Eliza on with them too

So sod all the efforts they do make, the people they have helped, etc. Until they do things exactly on your terms, they can go away.

(and I thought it was the EFDSS being dictatorial)


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I'm still waiting for evidence from you btw.

Subject: RE: Class-obsessed folkies
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 20 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

Read what I said, Ralph.

I *know* Eliza has played there. I suggested she play alongside Seth Lakeman. Don't be so eager to belittle.

And now, if you'll excuse me, I have a President to watch being sworn in.