giving money tips at english folk clubs

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:44 AM

Leadfingers

Isn't 'American Culture' an Oxymoron ?

Unless you mean like a culture growing in a petrie dish.

It's OK! I can poke fun, cuz I are one!

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: LesB
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:45 AM

"this is as per IRS laws (they are supposed to be taxed on their tips too."
The law is the same in the UK. People in the service industries are assumed to earn tips & an amount is set by the Tax people upon which you are taxed.
That's not to say that i would tip a paid performer in a folk club, but I may buy them a drink or buy a CD.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marilyn
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:00 AM

I hope the practice of tipping never catches on in folk clubs.
I absolutely loathe tipping and find it very embarrassing for the tipper and demeaning for the 'tippee'. I, for one, would much prefer it if tipping could die out altogether so that restaurants, hairdressers etc. didn't have the excuse to pay low wages.

Just my tuppence worth :-)

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:07 AM

>>as an organiser,you can not prevent someone tipping an artist.,any more than you can stop them buying a performer a beer, or a cup of coffee or a soft drink<<

I agree entirely Dick. However, that is their decision, not the performer or organser. I have been known to buy a performer a drink at other peoples clubs.

If somebody said I had to buy a drink or indeed tip, then I would also say "get lost".

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:28 AM

Here in the states there is a miminum wage law. Employees have to be paid a certain amount "EXCEPT" certain service workers, like wait staff, bartenders & the like, it doesn't matter if their employer is cheap or not, they get & are expected to get tip on their service/performance. They can get paid far less per hour than the mininum because they rely legally on tips

That's certainly true for the US, and is probably the reason most UK people don't like the practise. The idea of "a fair days work for a fair days pay" has a very strong history here. Added to which the idea that a service is quoted as xyz but we all know it is 'really' going to cost xyz+10% for tips grates.

[True story as an aside: The first time I went to the US was on business and my boss told me to tip everything at 10%-15%. "Everything?" I asked. "Everything", he confirmed. "Don't try to understand it, just do it. It's the American way."

When I left the hotel after a fortnight's stay the receptionist was very pleased with her tip of a few hundred dollars. My boss, less so.]

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote: "I am taking a tiny step towards introducing an aspect of American culture ,to English Folk clubs."

But, as people have already said, that aspect of American culture has developed for a particular reason.

"professional folksingers are lowerpaid than catering staff".

I'm not so sure about that. Catering staff (not the owners of the business, but rather the people on the floor) tend to be paid hourly like most other people. Unlike professional or semi-professional performers, travelling expenses and the like tend not to come into it: you're paid for actual job against the time you actually do it - work per hour. On that basis, I'm not really sure about many professional or semi-professional performers get paid £5.73 to, say, £7.50 for an hour-long set.

I'd rather buy a cd, t-shirt than give a tip. Given that the likes of a minimum wage were so long in coming in the UK, I think it's pretty messed-up that you want to bring over a custom from America that is pretty much out-of-step with the rest of America's employment rights in the first place.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:37 AM

villan,
you dont read my posts,I never suggested that anyone should be forced to tip.[voluntary,was my phrase]
I am saying that I think the spontaneous voluntary tip,is a gesture that I appreciate,and that if anyone wishes to tip me in an English folk club,Whether buying a drink[soft or alcoholic] or giving me a couple of quid,I have no objections.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:54 AM

Barry Finn wrote: "go to almost any bar or resturant in the US (fast food types are not included) & you're expected to tip ('If you can't or won't tip don't go out!') generally between 10%-20%. If I go out to a session (I only drink soda/pop) which at times cost anywhere from $1-$2, sometimes I'm only charged for the first drink."

I think another factor in this is, generally speaking - expensive restaurants aside and perhaps pre-credit crunch economy too - I've been told that going out to eat and drink is said to be cheaper in America than in the UK in the first place.

For what it's worth, the only place I know where I can get free refills on a coffee is IKEA!

Also, I often baulk at 'chain' coffee places having a tips jar next to the till when I've had to queue 5-10 minutes to get served at the counter (no finding a table and waiting for a waitress to take the order!) and then take my own drinks to a table. What is the (hoped-for) tip actually for in this scenario?

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:04 AM

Best tip you will get if you try that here is "Dont give up the day job. Next"

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: peregrina
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:48 AM

On the one hand:
I would not want to regularly patronize a folk venue that was striking such a tough deal with performers that they needed tips. Sweatshop acoustic music? No thanks. But I do know guess a tough living it is playing small venues. I'd rather express my appreciation and support the performer by buying CDs from them.

On the other: I am sure some members of the audience would feel pressured and uneasy about this. And the pub needs support too. Another pound or two to the performer, or to the pub that's giving the space, maybe for free? I know my choice.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:54 AM

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L - PM
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:04 AM

Best tip you will get if you try that here is "Dont give up the day job. Next".
if you visit my website MEGAN,You will find that I gave the day job up in 1976,and havebeen playing regularly at folkclubs and festivals ever since .http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:02 AM

Then stop whinging and beggin we dont like moochers up here

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:08 AM

If you want to busk, get out on the street in all weathers, like real buskers do.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:08 AM

It still sounds to me as if the American habit (either in Ireland or in the US) relates to a different situation. Cap'n B is talking about playing in a bar where people have not paid an entry fee, but pay inflated prices for the drinks. They are not really aware of paying for the entertainment, and may therefore wish to make a contribution.

English folk clubs are quite different. If there is a paid performer, there will be an entrance fee at the door, and the people attending expect that this (often topped up with funds from non-guest nights that are run at a profit, or from a raffle) will ensure that the performer is paid a proper fee. Part of the entertainment will also be provided, for free, by residents and other floor-singers who have helped raise the money on other club nights, to enable the club to pay the guest.

I don't think it's appropriate to encourage or expect tipping, and I'd be sorry to see it become a regular habit. Before long, you could find that organisers were offering lower fees to guests, on the understanding that tips would make up the balance. People would become embarrassed and confused as to what was expected of them. What if they enjoyed a floor-spot by a club member performing for free, do they slip him a couple of quid too? If they really enjoy the guest performer, they should make a point of telling both the guest and the organiser and thanking them at the end of the evening, and consider buying a CD, or going to see the guest again at another venue.

Sorry, tipping is one Anerican habit that I do not want to see become any more prevalent in Britain. There are better ways of promoting and encouraging folk music.

Marje

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:19 AM

Iam not demanding tips.
I am saying that I appreciate the American habit of tipping,Iappreciate it when people buy me a drink[soft or alcoholic],I appreciate it when people buy cds.
I appreciate just as Ido when Iam busking,peoples generosity.if anyone wants to give a voluntary tip[in an English folk club],I appreciate that too.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:26 AM

If you appreciate that Dick, then let the audience decide on wether they will buy a CD, or buy you a drink or give you a tip. Don't try to force it.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Howard Jones
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:29 AM

The thread title is about folk clubs. These are usually concert-type events where the performer is paid a fee and the audience pays to get in. In some cases, rather than pay a fixed price on the door the hat will be passed around, but it is usually understood that this is a donation for the music and not a tip. Of course, if anyone wanted in addition to tip the musician it would be rude to refuse, but should not be expected.

Where a group of musicians are playing in a pub session and someone offers to buy drinks or give a tip, then it would be ungracious to refuse. In some circumstances, for example where the session is in effect an informal concert intended to entertain the pub audience, then it might be acceptable to pass the hat. However most of the sessions I play in are primarily for the enjoyment of the musicians and it would not be acceptable to put the hat round any audience who may be listening.

The only situation where a tip (and a tip jar) might be acceptable is where the musician is providing background music eg in a restaurant, where they are effectively in the same position as the other staff.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:32 AM

john mackenzie,I have busked many times.
Megan,I am not begging or whingeing,I have opened a discussion,to which others have put their views,there is no reason,to turn this into a personal attack.,you are entitled to an opinion,so am I,we are entitled to disagree.
it should be possible to have a discussion on this forum,where by people express theoir opinions without being unpleasant.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:37 AM

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Villan - PM
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:26 AM

If you appreciate that Dick, then let the audience decide on wether they will buy a CD, or buy you a drink or give you a tip. Don't try to force it.
Iam not trying to force it,Ihave brought it up for discussion to see what peoples views are,in my original post it is the word UNSOLICITED.Unsolicited, means without coercion or force.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:40 AM

Of course, if anyone wanted in addition to tip the musician it would be rude to refuse, but should not be expected.[quote Howard Jones]
my whole point.
for example, an American may come to an English folk club.pay an entrance fee and still want to tip me,I would say thankyouvery much Iam glad you enjoyed the music,and accept the tip.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Tyke
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:42 AM

Due to the large amount of forgeries I have had to stop accepting £50 notes as tips!

It was my understanding that when you passed the hat round that the Irish the tradition was that people took money out of the hat!

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:53 AM

A civilised method of tipping, which I always appreciate, is when someone buys a CD at the end of the evening, proffers rather more money than is asked and says "keep the change, great evening". I say "thank you very much". As the great JC Gallow says when offered a drink, in his Louisiana French "Trop bien enlever pour refuser"

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 07:55 AM

I have a wonderful collection of buttons

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:16 AM

My tips as a busker have included a packet of herbal cigarettes(really herbal, not wacky baccy), and a condom(fortunately sealed, not used).More welcome was a glass of sherry and a mince pie, from a shopkeeper in Whitchurch who I always rememeber with gratitude).

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: breezy
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:38 AM

dear Capn, you claim

'I have busked many times'

O K what do you mean by 'Many times'?
Please qualify

Please be so kind as to answer the following quetuionare for reasearch purposes

Please circle your response

How many hours did you busk last week Capn B?
0   1-4 5-10 11 -14 15-20 21+

How many hours this year?
0   1-5 6-10 11-15 -16--25 26-50 over 50 over 100 100 300 500


last year? please estimate

in the last 10 years
10
20
37

thats where you get real feed back, out doors.

'Many times' means nothing.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:45 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote: "Of course, if anyone wanted in addition to tip the musician it would be rude to refuse, but should not be expected.[quote Howard Jones]
my whole point.

I'm a bit confused by this, to be honest. Elsewhere you've written "I am taking a tiny step towards introducing an aspect of American culture". From what I understand, where tipping has relevance in America (as with waitressing &c.) it's a case of it being expected.

At the same time, showing alternative forms of appreciation is fairly common already in England - buying the performer a drink and so on.

Is it possibly more a case of you just wanting more tokens of appreciation or something?

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: matt milton
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 08:47 AM

I saw a photo of Robert Belfour, possibly my favourite living bluesman, recently. He had a great tip jar – more like a tip barrel! – in front of him. It was like a beautifully decorated piece of junk: it actually added to his look. Made me think I ought to make myself one.

But, yeah,if you're playing a free entry gig and you're not getting paid, then why not pass round a hat? I can't think of any reason why an audience member could possibly object.. Increasingly I'm thinking that in this day and age it's almost a musician's duty to remind the audience in subtle or not so subtle ways that performing does actually [i]cost[/i] (time, effort, money).

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:11 AM

Breezy,in the last twenty years,about 30000 hours.
In Ireland,tipping is not expected,for musicians, when it happens its appreciated

Is it possibly more a case of you just wanting more tokens of appreciation or something?[quote]
no, its a question of cultures merging,should I refuse and say,youcant give me money[because we English think its not culturally acceptable] but you can buy me a drink].
then I have to be careful of the amount of drink, coffee or alcohol,I take in case it adversely affects my performance.
somebody, further up the thread made a very good point,about it giving the folkclub organiser achance to pay the guest less[but that only applies to enforced tipping.
if the performer has signed a contract for a fee,it is irrelevant if some well meaning person gives the performer a VOLUNTARY present.
the best busking present I was given was abook of sea shanties.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Maryrrf
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:45 AM

It's possible that the practice of the 'tip jar' is regional in the United States. I have no objection either way, nor do I feel demeaned when I'm tipped. As I said, there's never any obligation to the audience, unlike the tip you're supposed to leave for service in a restaurant or bar.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:57 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote: "no, its a question of cultures merging,should I refuse and say,youcant give me money[because we English think its not culturally acceptable] but you can buy me a drink].
then I have to be careful of the amount of drink, coffee or alcohol,I take in case it adversely affects my performance".

It's not really about 'cultures merging' though. The issue/relevancy of tipping in America is born out of a particular reasoning that doesn't really exist in this country. Yes, I think everyone wants to rewarded/renumerated more for what they do for a living, but the tipping thing in America is there to offset something else entirely. It seems as if you want the tipping side, but probably not the reason why tipping is actually seen as a necessity for some people.


"if the performer has signed a contract for a fee,it is irrelevant if some well meaning person gives the performer a VOLUNTARY present.
the best busking present I was given was abook of sea shanties".

The more I read this, the more your thinking just seems to be born out of a need for some kind of token of appreciation, to be honest.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 10:37 AM

Last year, I had to get the people who put the kitchen, in becuase the the ink and taps were faulty. They replaced both with new work surfaces. They were contracted by the manufacturer. They were nice people, and they got on with the job and did it well. So I gave then a tenner to get themselves a drink.
Tne next day I picked up a document on the work surface and underneath was a bit of paper and a ten pound note. On the bit of paper was a note which said "Thanks for the tip, but we are not allowed to accept tips"

I think that bucks the system.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:43 PM

(From the other side of the pond). There seems to be some misunderstanding of tipping "in America". The tipping of wait staff, taxi drivers, bellboys, paperboys at Christmas, is virtually obligatory. It's understood to be part of the cost of their service. Rightly or wrongly, goodly or badly, it's just the way it is, and it's not going to change soon. And yes, there are those who out of ignorance or in the name of some lofty principle or out just plain cussedness do not tip, or do not tip to the usual amount.

The tipping of musicians is understood to be an entirely different matter. In my experience, it's rarely done out of a sense of obligation; it's often done out of a sense of exuberant appreciation for the joy, excitement or other manner of heightened emotion that the musician has evoked (sometimes by performing a requested song). And it's also done to encourage a specific performer (or group of) to keep doing what they're doing. Obviously a very different outlook from that which produces comments of the "if-you're-not-happy-with-your-income-as-a-musician, quit-and-get-a-real-job, we-don't-give-a-damn" type ...

I find it curious that so many people here profess to be liberal buyers-of-drinks for performers, but balk at the idea of tipping same. At some point in their life or in the night, most performers who are not hopeless alcoholics would prefer the price of a drink in their pocket to the actual drink, it seems to me.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:45 PM

I find it curious that so many people here profess to be liberal buyers-of-drinks for performers, but balk at the idea of tipping same. At some point in their life or in the night, most performers who are not hopeless alcoholics would prefer the price of a drink in their pocket to the actual drink, it seems to me.[quote]
avery well put, logical point.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 01:26 PM

Breezy,in the last twenty years,about 30000 hours
Blimey, that's more than four hours a day, 365 days a year. I'm amazed you have the time to play at folk clubs as well!
Here's another tip - leave Bragging to Billy.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:44 PM

meself wrote: "I find it curious that so many people here profess to be liberal buyers-of-drinks for performers, but balk at the idea of tipping same".

I don't, to be honest. As this refers to 'this side of the pond', I think, again, it's about cultural differences.

There maybe even an element of national stereotyping involved here too. Whilst the joke/stereotype referring to the Scots is they're tight-fisted swines who don't like spending money, there maybe some truth to the idea that the English find the issue of money either embarrassing - or even 'vulgar' - in some weird way. Hence being more than happy to buy a drink in appreciation but finding giving the equivalent in 'cold hard cash' a little unsettling.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: meself
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:07 PM

Yes, I noticed that the word "embarrassed" has come up several times in the thread ...

I can see that treating to drinks is an easy act of comaraderie with a generally understood etiquette, while tipping, particularly where it is not a tradition, carries certain social risks. Still, if an entertainer is going over well with an appreciative crowd, at some point you may not be doing that person (or their spouse!) any favour by putting another drink into their hand ...

By the way, I'm not trying to take a position on the issue, never having been in an English folk club; just trying to make a couple of points that may be salient ...

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:25 PM

Dick - in situations where the audience is buying you more drinks than you want to consume, I suggest you have an arrangement with the landlord/bar staff to just take the money for your 'next drink' and give it to you at the end of the night, like a reverse tab. Most decent landlords are happy to do that.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:34 PM

meself wrote: "Still, if an entertainer is going over well with an appreciative crowd, at some point you may not be doing that person (or their spouse!) any favour by putting another drink into their hand ..."

Oh no, I agree with you there. As someone who's gone through phases of not drinking at all and has performed in a (non-folk) capacity, I've often grimaced at the thought of being offered yet another pint of coke or glass of orange, even though the 'thought' was genuinely appreciated. However, I always accepted that this was 'the nature of the beast'.

Although I must admit I was quite unusual with the people I played with; I don't I ever saw them refuse a drink. If they couldn't drink it there and then for whatever reason, they'd ask the barman could they have an un-opened can or bottle to take with them. I'm talking heavy drinkers and a couple of genuine alcoholics here though. :(

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: PoppaGator
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:26 AM

My observation in New Orleans is that a tip jar or basket is commonly used only where admission is free, regardless of whether the performers are being paid or not. If they are getting paid, it's not much ~ usually a modest percentage of the "take" at the bar.

I understand that customs differ in different countries, but I'm a bit dumbfoudned at reading of someone who is perfectly willing to buy CDs adding a "keep the change" gratuity, but not to simply give a tip. I, for one, could not afford to drop $12-15 for a CD, plus another couple of extra bucks, at every performance I attend. Tossing a dollar or two or more into the jar is more affordable for me, and all-profit/no-overhead for the recipient.

One thing upon which I wholeheartedly agree with the UK contingent: I resent the ubiquitous tip jar at the coffeeshop counter, where you wait on line and receive only the most perfunctory service.

I remember when the general rule in the US was to tip for table service at any restaurant ~ including the most informal eateries, the local diner or soda-fountain which provided counter seating plus booths or tables ~ but never to tip at the counter. And that was in a situation where you actually got service and attention at the counter, before during and after eating or drinking. Such service was considered less than tip-worthy, I suppose, only insofar as the server did not need to walk across the floor to address your needs.

In today's tip-for-everything environment, I have no problem leaving a tip for traditonal counter service, where I take a seat, am offered a beverage and menu immediately, then have my order taken, then delivered, then the check, etc. But to be quickly handed a paper cup of overpriced coffee after standing on queue? Yeah, I'll usually conform and give 'em a tip, a very modest one, but I don't like it...

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works pc
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:30 AM

Re. tipping cash v buying a drink (UK)

I have played pubs as a semi-professional where people who worked under me in my day job were present.
They would come to talk in the interval & offer to buy a drink 'cos they liked a particular song or request.
I would accept thankfully.
Whereas if they offered money, I would be embarrassed by the fact that both me and they knew that I was earning more than them in our day jobs.
I have played in restaurants where patrons bought me 'drinks' & the barman put the cash aside for me.
I have also performed floor-spots when a few listeners have said they enjoyed me more than the guest. Who should they tip?

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 07:57 AM

Personaly, if it were a 'pay to enter' club or if I was getting a fee, I would refuse a tip.
If it were a free entry venue I would happily consider a tip (shared if in a session) preferably liquid.
If I were busking, then I would think that is definately a cash activity.
On a lighter note, I and some Shanty singing friends decided to do an impromptue Carol singing session in a pub, in Derby UK, during the pre-Christmas festivities. A gentleman who had imbibed well, requested that we sing the Irish Rover, we refused on aesthetic grounds. Then he placed a large container of beer on our table and, unsurprisingly, we sang the Irish Rover...
"And it's no nay never, no nay never no more..."

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 08:43 AM

If it's an unpaid performance then by all means there should be a collection. One club I used to play at was free admission, but everyone would be expected to put (at least) the cost of a pint in the pot, and the bar takings would top it up to a round figure. Often that translated into more for the performer than they'd have got if everyone had had to pay £2 to get in.

If a performer's being paid, then soliciting tips suggests that something's wrong with the fee, the admission price or the promotion.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:24 AM

Then he placed a large container of beer on our table and, unsurprisingly, we sang the Irish Rover...

Les of Chorlton's version might have come in handy (or might not, depending what kind of imbiber your benefactor was):

And it's no nay never, no nay never no more,
Will I sing the Wild Rover...

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:25 AM

GUEST,Johnny Sunshine wrote: "If it's an unpaid performance then by all means there should be a collection. One club I used to play at was free admission, but everyone would be expected to put (at least) the cost of a pint in the pot, and the bar takings would top it up to a round figure. Often that translated into more for the performer than they'd have got if everyone had had to pay £2 to get in".

That's the way I see it. I don't expect performers to play for nothing, particularly if they've travelled and have costs to recoup. In those kinds of scenarios, I wouldn't begrudge a putting money in a pint pot at all - I've done it.

It's not a practice that I'd like to see as being the 'norm' though. The idea that a performer could earn more through doing that than through proper payment might be too tempting for promoters and the like. On the non-folk circuit, payment through giving performers tickets to sell seems to abused in a similar way by some promoters.

"If a performer's being paid, then soliciting tips suggests that something's wrong with the fee, the admission price or the promotion."

I agree completely.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Marje
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:43 AM

Just let's clarify one thing: the Wild Rover and the Irish Rover are completely different songs. You might not wish to sing either of them at sessions, but they're totally different songs.

Marje

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:54 AM

I have appreciated very much,the American habit of giving tips,when Ihave been playing in Irish pubs.
I think it would be mighty,if the English took up this habit,in English folk clubs unsolicited ,of course,but a gesture that is always much appreciated .Dick Miles.[original post]
UNSOLICITED,unsolicited,unsolicited.cant you read.
now a performer does a good evening,an American Tourist,who is used to tipping,pays his entrance fee,and decides at the end of the evening to give an extra[not abunch of fives].
what does the performer do,refuse the tip,explain that its not the done thing and upset the tourist,or accept it.
it is a question of two different cultural approaches.
English people seenm to be embarassed about money ,but not buying drinks[it doesnt seem logical]

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 09:59 AM

I went to a concert by a prominent east European Gypsy brass band. It was really excellent but the admission was not cheap, so I was quite surprised when one of the band started to come round the theatre seats with the hat. Some people gave money, (they looked slightly under duress) but most, including myself, gave nothing as we has paid handomely to get in.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:03 AM

....On the other hand, we were sitting listening to a really excellent six-piece traditional jazz band playing at an open air cafe in the French Quarter of New Orleans.
By the band was a notice saying We play for tips. They were so good that we stayed and listened all evening and gave something each time the hat came round.

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: wyrdolafr
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:09 AM

Captain Birdseye wrote: "English people seenm to be embarassed about money ,but not buying drinks[it doesnt seem logical]"

Logical? I think you need to be pitching gigs at Vulcans or the Borg then!

Maybe you need to update your set to include 'Gallant USS Voyager', 'The Ferengi Farmer's Daughter' and 'Coil Away the Trawl Warp Drive'!

Subject: RE: giving money tips at english folk clubs
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM

They're not at all embarrassed about it - if they think they've already paid enough they won't be embarrassed into paying again.