BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days

Subject: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:31 PM

The age of post-political politics is officially over (it took three days):

THE PLAN:

Democrats -- spend money! get us out of trouble (more government!)
Republicans -- tax cuts! can't spend out of trouble (less government!)

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:37 PM

Democrats -- spend money! get us out of trouble (more government!)
Republicans -- tax cuts! borrow MORE money to get us out of trouble (still more government, but without oversight or rules on spending!)

Don't be silly. BOTH parties are going to spend money (there's that $700 B-for-billion that was authorized by W, for instance, not to mention the "stimulus package" a year ago) and both borrowing it, most likely from China or the EU. And in case you missed it, Obama has ALSO proposed tax cuts.

If I'm going to bail you out from your own foolishness I really, really WANT to put regulations on you and know how you spend MY money.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:48 PM

The main difference between the Republicans and Democrats is that, while they would both spend large amounts of taxpayer and borrowed money, with the Republicans, the money would go to further enrich their already rich cronies, and with the Democrats, the money will go to help the majority of taxpayers as well as the economy and the country's infrastructure.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 04:53 PM

Right, Carol...

The Repubs think the answer is more "trickle-down"??? Hmmmmm, wonder what happened to the $350B we allready gave the rich??? No one seems to know but it sho nuff didn't trickle down...

But the Repubs say, "Trust us... We just need more of that sough and it will eventually trickle down..."

Problem is that is what they have been saying since Ronald Reagan and if it ain't happened yet then it ain't gonna happen ever...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:05 PM

He's been in for 3 days.

The first foreign leader he contacted was Mahmoud Abbas, the president of the Palestinian authority.

He announced a wage freeze for all White House staff earning more than $100,000 a year. "Families are tightening their belts, and so should Washington," he says

On day 2 he signed an order to close Guantanamo Bay prison and prohibit torture of suspected terrorists.

He names peacebrokers George Mitchell and Richard Holbrooke as special envoys to the Middle East and to Pakistan and Afghanistan respectively.

The honeymoon is still happening as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: freda underhill
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:09 PM

.. and re spending money .. all the money he has is taxpayers money. taxpayers are entitled to have it spent on improving the economy. and spreading it about, to ordinary people. it's their money. and they are the workers who keep the economy moving.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

He also issued an executive order to overturn a Bush order that restricted funding to international health care agencies who offer abortions.

That should not be construed to mean that we are funding abortion, just that we are expanding the number of international organisations who are eligible for funding.

Under Bushes order the organisations we supposedly sent to fight the AIDS epidemic in Africa could not even suggest the use of condoms.

He has a lot of work ahead of him just trying to undo the damage of the last 8 yrs, and actually as pointed out by Bobert, the last 30 yrs, as most of these problems began with Reaganomics.

Change is a comin, ain't nowhere to go but up. :)

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:01 PM

He wants to give lower income wage earners more of their paychecks by not withholding so much tax, but frankly, that isn't going to make a big difference to me (as one of those relatively low income wage earners). I'd rather see him sink it into projects that put people in the area back to work. If they do actually (for example) put solar collectors on all federal buildings (not just Federal Buildings) then the expertise and the availability of materials ought to both go up. It means this kind of project is something that can trickle out into the community as well.

My two cents.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:09 PM

The main difference between Republicans and Democrats, is only in perception!..Neither have the common interests of you and me, in their agendas...which of course, is two halves of a whole! Another thing they have in common, is they are both corrupted to the core!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:20 PM

Well, GfS, we'll see??? Yeah, yer prolly right but I'm gonna give Obama a chance to see if he is the Trojan Horse... 'Cause that is the only way that the Repubocratic stanglehold can ever be broken short of armed revolution... And, frankly, I ain't into shooting at people...

But we all know of your complete distain for Obama... It ain't no secret here... So I reckon you will join hands with the Bushites here a blast Obama every chance you get...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 06:45 PM

I would agree there are people in both parties who are corrupt, and there are good in both also.

I do feel though that Obama is a different kind of man than we have seen in politics for a long time. I believe he does care about average people. I may be wrong, but if I am I know I won't be alone.

He has my total support, and if he fails it won't be from lack of trying, it will probably be from sabotage by those who are happy with the way things have been going.

I always considered myself politically conservative, but the republicans haven't been that for years. I know they still try to claim that's what they are, but most of the people in the Republican party don't even know what a conservative is anymore.

And before the comments start coming I will restate "political conservative". Not religious conservative. Not social conservative. Not neo-conservative. There are extreme differences in all these and I am not going to explain them all. If you don't know the difference, try reading a book instead of burning them.

Sorry folks, that last paragraph was for a select few. They know who they are. Don't know their names though, cuz a the hoods and all that.

I look forward to the coming times, I think there will be a lot of good stuff going on.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:10 PM

I just hope - for the sake of all my good buddies in the US - that Obama lives up to the impression that he has created in the minds of many Americans as someone who WILL make change.

I remember my euphoria when Blair came to power in the UK - the incredible feeling that here was someone who was young, fresh, principled, powerful - full of potential. In a very short time, all this fell by the wayside and he was ultimately revealed as a liar, a short-termist, a corrupt man - in short, no different from any other politician.

I hope, for all of you, that this pattern is not repeated with BO.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:21 PM

I am not so sure that I was that convinced by Blair personally even then, but I remember the heady sense that the venal rich had been disempowered. Of course, Blair did go to Fettes.

I am encouraged by the fact that the first European leader to speak to Obama the president was Brown, and that Obama seems to be following the lead that Brown gave on managed and controlled (those words are important) reflation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:25 PM

Just because the hyenas and plutocrats have been beaten back from the hearth does not mean they will stop howling around the door.

I have yet to hear a positive3 plan from the lopyal opposition, except for cutting corporate taxes.

This presupposed that companies, of and by themselves can find ways to remedy social ills. This is not the case. The market is not the sole judge of social well-being, god only knows. This trickle-down crap is not the answer, because it hasn't worked. In fact the worst economy we have ever had was born in the throes of Bushian tax cuts and corporate support. You would think SOMEONE on the other side of the aisle would be able to put two and two together.   It takes a real hard-nosed dedication to blind ignorance to not see that something fails in such large ways.

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

The proof will be in the pudding. If we get a tax cuts (I anticipate at least two for us, one for our personal income and one for our corporation, plus a tax credit to our corporation for providing us with health insurance), then I will know that there is a substantial difference between the Democrats and the Republicans at least on the issue of who their economic policies are designed to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 07:42 PM

"Right-Wing Myths About The Stimulus


Last week, House Democrats released an $825 billion economic recovery package, which consists of $550 billion in government spending and $275 billion in tax cuts. The provisions in the plan were marked up by various congressional committees this week, with the goal of passing a full stimulus package sometime in mid-February. Though they voiced some support when President Obama initially laid out his vision for a stimulus plan, conservatives balked upon seeing the bill that emerged from the House. Minority Leader John Boehner (R-OH) made his opposition known by simply saying "Oh. My. God." Conservatives have coalesced around "alternative" stimulus proposals like one crafted by the Republican Study Committee (RSC). But in their opposition, conservatives have propagated several myths about the stimulus and its potential effect on the economy. Here are the three most prominent conservative stimulus myths, and why they amount to nothing more than hot air.
 
MYTH 1 -- SPENDING IS NOT STIMULATIVE: In response to the stimulus plan, conservatives on the House Budget Committee released a report stating that the proposal "pours taxpayers' money" into projects, "many of which may be worthy in themselves, but have little to do with 'stimulating' the economy." Harvard professor Robert Barro derided the plan as "voodoo economics," while right-wing pundit Michelle Malkin claimed that it will "at most be useless." However, an analysis by Moody's Economy.com found that government spending results in more significant "bang for the buck." For every dollar invested in specific types of spending, the boost in real GDP is more than $1.30. The most benefit comes from extending unemployment benefits ($1.64) and increasing food stamps ($1.73), but strong returns result from infrastructure investment ($1.59) and aid to state and local governments ($1.36), as well. Furthermore, Moody's also noted, "A well-timed, targeted, and temporary stimulus could in fact cost the Treasury less in the long run, since a debilitating recession would severely undermine tax revenues and prompt more government spending for longer." Mark Zandi, chief economist at Moody's and former adviser to Sen. John McCain's (R-AZ) presidential campaign, released his analysis of the House plan on Wednesday, and concluded that it would "provide a vital boost to the flagging economy," without which full employment would not return until 2014.
 
MYTH 2 -- STIMULUS WON'T CREATE JOBS: Last week, Boehner claimed, "When it comes to slow-moving government spending programs, it's clear that it doesn't create the jobs or preserve the jobs that need to happen." Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney said that "even if consumption were to bump up, it would not lead businesses to expand and to add jobs." However, as former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich explained, "The stimulus plan will create jobs repairing and upgrading the nation's roads, bridges, ports, levees, water and sewage system, public-transit systems, electricity grid, and schools." It stands to reason that investing in infrastructure is going to lead to job creation, as someone needs to be hired to actually complete the various projects. By investing $100 billion in clean energy infrastructure alone, the Center for American Progress (CAP) has estimated that 2 million jobs can be created in the next two years. Aid to states through bolstering Medicaid also "generates business and gets people into jobs," as a recent report by Families USA showed: "The new dollars pass from one person to another in successive rounds of spending, generating additional business activity, jobs, and wages that would not otherwise be produced." Council of Economic Advisers Chairman Christina Romer and Vice President Biden aide Jared Bernstein, meanwhile -- by using the "1% of GDP equals 1 million jobs rule of thumb" -- estimated that a stimulus plan will create or save three million jobs. According to their calculations, "30% of the jobs created will be in construction and manufacturing," while "the other two significant sectors that are disproportionately represented in job creation are retail trade and leisure and hospitality."

MYTH 3 -- PERMANENT TAX CUTS ARE THE BEST STIMULUS: The only stimulus idea that conservatives are wholeheartedly supporting is permanent tax cuts. At a hearing before the RSC, Romney, former eBay CEO Meg Whitman, and Americans for Tax Reform President Grover Norquist all claimed that the stimulus should include permanent corporate tax cuts, while Barro claimed that fully "eliminating the federal corporate income tax would be brilliant." But CAP'sWill Straw explained, "The track record for such steps is poor in general, but they are particularly ill-suited for a recessionary period. After all, the reason that businesses and individuals are not investing at the moment has little to do with the taxes they may pay in the future and everything to do with a fear of losing money because there is no demand in the economy." The Heritage Foundation, meanwhile, proposed an "alternative" to the House stimulus: "permanent tax reductions such as the ones Congress passed in 2003." "Tax cuts like those have a proven track record of encouraging economic growth," wrote Heritage. But this is simply the same supply-side approach adopted by the Bush administration, and the evidence that it helps economic growth is "weak at best." An analysis by the Center for American Progress Action Fund shows that every $10 billion spent on this kind of cut would create or save just 10,000 jobs, "versus nearly 60,000 jobs which could be created or saved by extending unemployment benefits and food stamps or investing directly in energy, transportation and education infrastructure." Furthermore, permanent measures will exacerbate the long-term debt much more than temporary measures will."...

(Progressive)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:06 PM

The only things that trickle down are pee and snot.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: kendall
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:17 PM

Trickle down has failed. So, let's try bubble up.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 08:20 PM

You have to accept that the greedy rich are trying to make sure that they get 110% of all economic aid.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:05 PM

"The main difference between Republicans and Democrats, is only in perception!..Neither have the common interests of you and me, in their agendas...which of course, is two halves of a whole! Another thing they have in common, is they are both corrupted to the core!" Go away. This is not a subject that you can discuss sanely.
On second thought, I'm sure Amos is right when he says: 'Just because the hyenas and plutocrats have been beaten back from the hearth does not mean they will stop howling around the door." So howl away.

I've been listening to the Republicans in disbelief. They are spouting all this rhetoric about the stimulus package, saying that this is money that is being borrowed from future generations, that tax cuts are the answer... on and on.

No one seems to remind them that tax cuts are a great part of what brought us to this pass.

And where was their concern about future generations way back when? As far as I'm concerned, the Republicans had their chance and didn't take it. They too would rather howl.

John Boehner, GOP, had a suggestion, though, that seemed it should be looked at. He said (paraphrased) that the federal government should be allocating the money to the states rather than doing it from the federal level because the states already know the need and have the means set up to get money into the hands of the people quickly, much faster than a federal program can.

The downside of that, probably, is that monitoring, oversight, would be a nightmare.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:34 PM

Whatever is done had better be done pretty damned fast. Arguing about whether or not FDR did what brought the country out of the Depression is pointless when your kids are hungry. Arguing about ideology will get you tossed out of Congress when your "constituents" are without jobs, homes, and hope. Ranting on and on doesn't get a sick person well.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: pdq
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 09:38 PM

"John Boehner, GOP, had a suggestion, though, that seemed it should be looked at. He said (paraphrased) that the federal government should be allocating the money to the states rather than doing it from the federal level because the states already know the need and have the means set up to get money into the hands of the people quickly, much faster than a federal program can."

Ebbie sez: "The downside of that, probably, is that monitoring, oversight, would be a nightmare."

Sorry to disagree, but the state governments, all 50 of them, must be assumed to be honest and capable of doing such a job.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 10:39 PM

I think you are right, pdq, but why didn't the previous government try that?

It is also true that the banks, the auto industry, Wall Street itself, got us in a world of hurt when we assumed they must be honest and capable of doing such a job.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jan 09 - 11:36 PM

If we didn't have corrupt and dishonest state governments, we wouldn't have so many governors, former governors, and members of Congress going to prison all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:23 AM

I've been listening to the Republicans in disbelief. They are spouting all this rhetoric about the stimulus package, saying that this is money that is being borrowed from future generations, that tax cuts are the answer... on and on.

ONe wonders why they didn't say that when they and Bush borrowed money form China for his stimulus plan last year. The GOP is an endangered species and they are going to try every thing they can to put up road blocks for ANY good which may be done, but they will not succeed. They are stuck in the Divider More, following their former leader. President Obama is a Uniter and will be quite successful.

pdq, are you being ironic? What basis do you use to say state governments MUST be honest, etc. Remember what they say about "ass you & mee" ing?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:56 AM

This is disappointing, however...

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090124/world/pakistan

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:19 AM

I heard about this early this morning, and yes it is disappointing when innocent civilians are killed.

However, these people have been hiding in this area for the last 7 years and the Pakistani gov't has done little to discourage them.

It has seemed to me that it has been some kind of running joke between the Bush administration and Pakistan.

Obama made no bones about it during the campaign or since the election.

Bush made virtually no attempts to get these people who WERE responsible for the attacks on 9/11, choosing instead to slaughter innocent Iraqui's to further his own agenda.

These are the same people who launch attacks on humanitarian aid convoys, blow up schools, and send people to spray acid on little girls who only want to go to school, all the while being hidden by these innocent civilians

Rather than issue complaints about the U S missile strikes, the Pakisatani gov't needs to get off their asses and do something about the problem.

Obama has made it pretty clear that there won't be any more "nudge nudge, wink wink" when it comes to dealing with al qaeda.

I hate when innocents die every bit as much as others, but an end has to come to this sooner or later and I hope that by Obama showing he means business, it will be sooner.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:41 AM

I think it will backfire. From the article...

"Pakistani leaders complain that the more than 30 missile strikes since August have fanned anti-American sentiment and undermined the government's own efforts to counter Islamic militants.

One thing we ought to have learned by now (sheesh), is that when we kill their wives, children, and grandparents, we create more extremists, whom we then have to fight.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 04:57 AM

Yes and no.

When the IRA was asked during disarmament if their wives knew what they were up to, the reply was "who do you think was hiding the weapons?"

The Pakistani gov't is going to say whatever is politically expediant for them. The point still remains, they have done little to solve the problem, partly because the Bush administration didn't want them to.

Things are changing and they are going to have to understand that their good buddy George ain't in charge no more.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:19 AM

Killing children always backfires. No amount of rationalization will ever change that.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:24 AM

That's what I keep thinking.

How many children have the Taliban and al Qaeda killed in the same area in the same time?

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:31 AM

The difference between us and the Taliban and al Qaeda is that we can only win our battles if we also win the hearts and minds of the people of the countries where we are trying to make a difference. al Qaeda and the Taliban, on the other hand, win their battles by scaring people. What works for them will not work for us.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 05:47 AM

I think you should look alittle deeper into the subject.

I believe that al Qaeda and the Taliban do have the hearts and minds of their people. I believe they have done so by deception, but that is beside the point, or is it?

Terrorists try to instill fear in their enemies,(that would be us),and win the hearts of their countrymen by battling the enemy,(again, us).

They have convinced the civilian population there that they are the good guys, and we are the bad guys. In other words, to them WE are the terrorists.

In the meantime, they blow up schools, and kill innocents who only want a better way of life, because these are tools aimed at the destruction of their way of life.

So, keeping this in mind, is it all still as black and white for you?

BHSC

PS, this is not an attack on you Carol, or anyone else, just a friendly chat.:)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:00 AM

We cannot win the hearts and minds of either the people of Pakistan or the people of Afghanistan by killing the children of those countries. We know from experience that when we do that, we increase the number of people we then have to fight, rather than reducing their number. This is something we know from experience, and we have also been told by the government of Afghanistan, and now also Pakistan.

Our killing the children of those places is the best recruiting tool groups like the Taliban and al Qaeda have. Battling us only wins the hearts and minds of previously non-extremist people if those people feel that they have a legitimate grievance with us. Without that sense of grievance, the Taliban and al Qaeda have nothing whatever to work with. In the meantime, if they are blowing up schools and killing innocents themselves, they can't really be said to be trying to win hearts and minds, now, can they? Obviously not. If that is what they are doing, then they are attempting to rule through fear. That way of doing things works for them to a very limited degree, but we have seen that when al Qaeda pisses off enough people, they don't receive the assistance they need to continue to operate.

When we kill children, we make al Qaeda stronger. When they kill children, if we are not also doing the same, al Qaeda becomes weaker.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 06:27 AM

I think you missed the point of my post, or maybe you just already had your mind made up that I was wrong.

Religious fundamentalists have convinced the people of a certain country that another country is trying to destroy their way of life.

They kill innocent people either directly, or indirectly, because those people have a desire for a better way of life, and are therefore tools of the enemy.

The killing will continue as long as the fundamentalists can convince the people that the enemy is bent on their destruction.

No matter what the enemy does, it will be a trick, designed to deal the fatal blow.

Any innocents who die will be considered martyrs, patriots who died for the cause.

Stand fast, as God is on our side.

The people have a common enemy and only we can protect you from them.

IF you look at it from both sides, you can see the script is the same.

So, I ask again. Is it still black and white for you?

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 09:13 AM

Carol C is right.

I don't know about the republican party being an endangered species, but I sure hope the Rush Limbaugh republican is. Can you believe what he said about Obama? He said "We hope he fails." What kind of blind stupid asshole makes a remark like that? If that is the attitude of the republican party, it deserves to die out.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 10:27 AM

I think the problem -- exemplified by Rush Limbaugh's remark -- is that the political systems have become so filled with corrupt and evangelical (not necessarily in the Christian sense) people that someone who is fundamentally decent -- and one of the glories of Obama is that, as far as I can tell, he is someone thoughtful and decent -- is prey to being rolled over and chewed up and spat out.   It doesn't seem to me that merely suggesting that we need to be bipartisan is enough to fight this. It is actually going to take some ruthlessness to make do. I wonder if he has it in him: to both be decent and ruthless in support of what he wants to do. It is a hard road to walk carefully down.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 11:10 AM

Anybody who claims that Obama's "honeymoon" is over in 3 days seems to be incredibly naive about politics. The term "honeymoon" is absurdly misleading anyway. No president has been totally free from criticism--for any sizable period of time--including FDR--with the possible exception of Washington. (In Washington's case, the predominant sentiment when he was first "elected" (unanimously) was gratitude that he was willing, Cincinnatus-like, to try to lead a group of fractious states which might become a country. And the gratitude did not last).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 12:37 PM

I didn't miss the point of the post. I disagree with the basic premise being offered. The only reason the religious fundamentalists are able to convince people that another country is trying to destroy their way of life is because we daily provide them with evidence to support their claims.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 01:36 PM

You don't understand, Carol. Those people holding their dead children must know that their children were killed by good bombs from people who had their long-term interests at heart. I am sure they will forgive us once they understand that.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

Mr. Bi-partisan, John McCain, this morning:

"We need to make tax cuts permanent, and we need to make a commitment that there'll be no new taxes. We need to cut payroll taxes. We need to cut business taxes."

So the trillion dollar + deficit and the spending are to be paid for how? (Last I heard, the Chinese were leaving town.....)

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM

Reality Check:

The Money "given away" under TARP are actually loans with an obligation for repayment to the Treasury.

Tax cuts is not money printed up and given away or spent. It results in less tax money being collected by the Treasury.

The Tax "refunds" for people that do not pay income tax and the spending programs proposed by the Obamacrats will never be returned to the government. It is simply money printed up and given away or spent. It will never be recouped except for possibly a small percentage returned in taxes collected by the Treasury.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 01:45 PM

These "tax-cut" fanatics are yapping up the wrong tree as hard as they can.

What does it take to recognize a failure?



A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 01:53 PM

Amos:

First someone has to point out the failure instead of making a Nifongesque, straw man, false logic accusation with no facts to support their statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:22 PM

The point was to look at the issue from BOTH sides.

Every one of the points I stated have been hammered at us since 9/11.

Every one of the points I stated have been hammered into the people of these other countries.

It's the age old story of "my invisible man is bigger than your invisible man, and we are right and you are the infidels".

Sorry if the sarcasm was lost on some. Next time I will try to be a little more obvious.

I was not trying to piss anyone off, just get people to think and realise there are no easy answers to this issue, but looking in the mirror for the solution is usually a good place to start.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:37 PM

Looking at it from both sides, it looks to me like the average civilian in Afghanistan and Pakistan is not being given enough credit for intelligence in the above arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: bald headed step child
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 02:45 PM

Maybe, but the average civilian here may be getting too much credit.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Maybe. In the meantime, there's this...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090125/wl_nm/us_afghan_protest

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Sawzaw
Date: 25 Jan 09 - 10:59 PM

It's tha Sameold Sameold:

WASHINGTON â€" President Barack Obama's ban on earmarks in the $825 billion economic stimulus bill doesn't mean interest groups, lobbyists and lawmakers won't be able to funnel money to pet projects.

They're just working around it â€" and perhaps inadvertently making the process more secretive.

The projects run the gamut: a Metrolink station that needs building in Placentia, Calif.; a stretch of beach in Sandy Hook, N.J., that could really use some more sand; a water park in Miami.

There are thousands of projects like those that once would have been gotten money upfront but now are left to scramble for dollars at the back end of the process as "ready to go" jobs eligible for the stimulus plan.

The result, as The Associated Press learned in interviews with more than a dozen lawmakers, lobbyists and state and local officials, is a shadowy lobbying effort that may make it difficult to discern how hundreds of billions in federal money will be parceled out.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama Honeymoon lasts 3 days
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Jan 09 - 01:40 PM

bubble up works even in a desert. Its called an Oasis.

MAD magazine has a cover showing Obama after the first 100 minutes.

Rush Limbaugh said he hopes Obama's stimulus plan fails. This week Rush seems to be giving Obama a lap dance as he calls for unity cahnge and bi-partisanship. Rush is calling all birth control abortion as he retreats to one of the last hot button issues he is allowed to exploit. It got me wondering how many children Rush has and who on earth would have allowed such a thing to happen.