BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 12:18 AM

How far north are you, Riginslinger?

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:16 AM

I'm not very far north, Southern part of Oregon. On a map it looks like it lines up with Detroit and the Massachusetts - New Hampshire state border.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:24 PM

Sawzall - I watched the video. Do you think it relates to Jimmy Carter in some way?

Yeah, This is what Mr Peanut wants to make peace with.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:34 PM

Riginslinger, do you live in the U.S? If you do not, and were I to have the power, I would trade you Jimmy Carter for one very slim dime. He is the worst president the U.S. has ever had.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

Doug, you may notice that your question was answered earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:18 PM

Doug - If you think Jimmy Carter was bad, you must have been out of the country when Ronald Reagan was in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:31 PM

32. Jimmy Carter

1977-81 (Democratic)

Our panel only just left him out of the bottom ten, making him their 11th worst President.

---

8. Ronald Reagan

1981-89 (Republican)

Feted by many of the panel and implicated in the current financial crisis by others, Reagan's controversial reputation remains but his revolutionary zeal forced him into the top ten.

He was elected with a clear mandate for radical economic policy to tackle high inflation and unemployment rates. His tax cutting, budget slashing, laissez-faire strategy known as “Reaganomicsâ€쳌 became extremely popular as the US economy recovered.

The former actor’s foreign policy was more divisive and his administration was attacked for perceived bellicosity as well as embarrassments including the Iran-Contra affair. But even though he was seen as a hawk when he took office, Reagan managed to grasp the historic opportunity brought about by Mikhail Gorbachev's rise to power in the Soviet Union to help bring an end to the Cold War.

"Revived American self-confidence at its lowest ebb." Gerard Baker.
Prevented a possible Third World War by containing the Soviet Union." Camilla Cavendish.

---

7. Harry Truman

1945-53 (Democratic)

Truman entered the White House after just 82 days as Roosevelt’s Vice President and with very little foreign experience. He was soon called upon to make some of the most significant international policy decisions in American history.

He sanctioned the use of atomic weapons over Japan, signed up to the United Nations and NATO as well as formulating the Truman Doctrine, which shaped America’s anti-Communist policy for decades to come. Industrial disputes, scandals and the alleged harbouring of Soviet agents diminished Truman’s reputation at home leaving him with a 22 per cent approval rating.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:47 PM

"His tax cutting, budget slashing, laissez-faire strategy known as “Reaganomicsâ€쳌 became extremely popular as the US economy recovered."


                Calling what Reagan did to the economy a recovery is nothing short of laughable, but it certainly caused the depression we find ourselves in now.

                And the term "budget slashing" in no way applys to Reagan. It was his totally unhinged buget proposal that dropped the country into the worst economic disaster since the Great Depression. I think a lot of people are just getting wise to him now.

                And that's what will make Jimmy Carter's image shine.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:01 PM

Jimmy Carter's highest rating was 75 percent, and his lowest was 28 percent. Ronald Reagan's highest rating was 68 percent, and his lowest was 35 percent. President George H.W. Bush got a high rating of 89 percent, though his lowest rating was 29 percent. Bill Clinton topped out at 73 percent, and his lowest rating was 37 percent. Our 43rd President, George W. Bush, achieved the highest approval rating of all, at 90 percent, but also received one of the lowest at 29 percent.

But Sawzaw, you mean GWB is ranked higher than Mr Pean.. er.. Carter? Ouch!

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: kendall
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:08 PM

When it comes to the worst presidents, it's hard to beat good old Useless s Grant republican
Warren G Harding republican
Richard Nixon republican
George W Bush republican

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 09:11 PM

Well, I wasn't around for Warren G. Harding or U.S. Grant, but as far as I'm concerned Ronald Reagan was way worse than Nixon or G.W. Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:08 PM

2/16/07 US News and World Report

A Survey of Major Polls:

U.S. News examined five polls and determines the 13 lowest scoring presidents

1. James Buchanan (1857-1861)
He refused to challenge either the spread of slavery or the growing bloc of states that became the Confederacy.


2. Warren G. Harding (1921-1923)
He was an ineffectual and indecisive leader who played poker while his friends plundered the U.S. treasury.

3. Andrew Johnson (1865-1869)
He survived impeachment after opposing Reconstruction initiatives including the 14th amendment.


4. Franklin Pierce (1853-1857)
His fervor for expanding the borders--thereby adding several slave states--helped set the stage for the Civil War.

5. Millard Fillmore (1850-1853)
He backed the Compromise of 1850 that delayed the Southern secession by allowing slavery to spread.

6. John Tyler (1841-1845)
He was a stalwart defender of slavery who abandoned his party's platform once he was president.
William Harrison

7. Ulysses S. Grant (1869-1877)
Serving right after Johnson, he presided over an outbreak of graft and corruption, but had good intentions.
Herbert Hoover

8. William Harrison (1841)
He was president for all of 30 days after contracting pneumonia during his interminable inaugural.

9. (tie) Herbert Hoover (1929-1933)
He was known as a poor communicator who fueled trade wars and exacerbated the Depression.
Zachary Taylor

9. (tie) Richard Nixon (1969-1974)
Though politically gifted, he will forever be associated with the Watergate scandal and his resignation.

10. Zachary Taylor (1849-1850)
A political novice, the war hero is entirely forgettable as president.

11. Jimmy Carter

12. Calvin Coolidge
        
13. (tie) James Garfield                 

13. (tie) Chester Arthur

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:32 PM

Jimmy Carter, however, will be vindicated in this ongoing economic crisis, while Ronald Reagan will be excoriated. This time next year will see Carter way up in these polls and Reagan's fortunes will suffer.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:39 PM

A serious segue here- the thought just occurred to me that each 'age' has its blind spots.

Back in the day, the concept of slavery had its adherents. Today we would not take seriously anybody who advocated it.

Today the concept of choice in the matter of homosexuality has its adherents. Tomorrow (?) that opinion will have become ludicrous.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: bankley
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 03:15 PM

it has already in Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:33 PM

Today the concept of choice in the matter of homosexuality has its adherents.

For example Julie Bindel writing in today's Guardian ,arguing that it can be a matter of choice - a choice she recommends for all feminists :"Come on sisters, you know it makes sense. Stop pretending you think lesbianism is an exclusive members' club, and join the ranks. I promise that you will not regret it."

Lots of online letters dashed off in response - generally not too enthusiastic about the notion...

It seems pretty obvious that, as with all human activities, there is an element of choice in this context, but that that is only part of the picture. As with Morris Dancing.

How on earth did a thread about Jimmy Carter drift this far?

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:46 PM

That's what happens when the masts break and the engine fails...

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: frogprince
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:03 PM

Crimeny; it must bother someone like that no end to know that the race can't reproduce without that nasty stuff that comes out of males. I've known any number of outspoken feminists by now. Out of all of them, a couple had issues with fear & distrust of men. I've probably known more women who weren't avowed feminists who had similar issues. I've never heard any of them, or even any lesbian that I've known, come on with a line like Bindel's. So who gets the headlines, and gives Pat Robertson and idiots of that ilk fuel for burning all feminists.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 09:52 PM

"That's what happens when the masts break and the engine fails..."


                      Jimmy Carter is a submariner, masts don't concern him, and engine failures only cause him to surface...

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 10:00 PM

My fault, Kevin. Sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 12:36 AM

"?"

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:26 AM

"How on earth did a thread about Jimmy Carter drift this far?" McGrath 5:33

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:50 AM

Actually I think free-range threads can be quite good for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: DougR
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:08 AM

Gee, Riginslinger, you must have great forecasting powers!

Who's going to win the Superbowl tomorrow?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 09:16 AM

The jury is still out on the Superbowl, but the die has been cast for Reagan and Carter.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 02:17 PM

Let's take a moment to reflect on how lucky we all are to have....each other! (to disagree with on these political threads) ;-)

It keeps our minds occupied.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 02:49 PM

Of course, some commentators are more disagreeable than others.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:36 PM

The Chavez-Carter Connection

With Hugo Chavez romping around New York this week, plugging Noam Chomsky and sniffing out sulfur, let's not forget the man who in his own humble way did so much to make this visit possible — Jimmy Carter.

Recall that just a few years ago, Chavez was on the ropes in Venezuela. Elected president in 1998, he embarked on a despotic course that sparked enormous opposition. Ousted briefly in 2002 by a military coup, his return to power was met with nationwide strikes and protest. Jimmy Carter, with his Carter Center, got involved; and in August, 2004, Venezuela held a referendum on whether Chavez should remain in power. Amid serious signs of vote fraud, Chavez announced victory. Dismissing huge evidence of a stolen election, including such stuff as bizarre statistical discrepances, a failure of secure auditing procedures at the central tallying center, and more votes cast in some districts than there were voters, Carter went to bat for Chavez, certifying him as the victor.

Now we have this Carter-certified winner doing weapons deals with Russia, doing business and swapping avowals of brotherly love with Iran's Ahmadinejad, and running for a seat on the UN Security Council.

Scratch almost any current threat to the U.S., and behind it — radiating mediation and appeasement — is a Jimmy Carter moment. It was during his presidency that the Soviet Union was emboldened to invade Afghanistan, creating the cauldron whence ultimately emerged Al Qaeda. It was during his presidency that Iran had its totalitarian Islamic revolution. It was Jimmy Carter who in 1994 went to North Korea and conceived the "Agreed Framework" nuclear freeze deal, which helped sustain and consolidate the cheating Pyongyang regime now testing missiles and presumed to have a stash of nuclear bombs. I could go on, but the news of the hour is the Hugo Chavez show — in which Carter, for his supporting role, deserves to take a bow.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 10:37 PM

Observers Rush to Judgment
Jimmy Carter gets rolled--first by Fidel Castro, now by Hugo Chávez.

by MARY ANASTASIA O'GRADY
Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:01 A.M. EDT

When Jimmy Carter went to Cuba in 2002, Fidel Castro reveled in the photo-ops with a former U.S. president. Mr. Carter seemed to think he was heroically "engaging" the Cuban despot. But in the documentary "Dissident," celluloid captures something most Americans didn't see: Castro giggling sardonically as Mr. Carter lectures the Cuban politburo on democracy. That foreshadowed what happened when the media splash ended and the former president went home: Dissidents he went to "help" today languish in gulag punishment cells.

I was reminded this week of how Castro so artfully used Mr. Carter when Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez took a page from his Cuban mentor's playbook. On Monday, the Carter Center along with the head of the monumentally meaningless Organization of American States, Cesar Gaviria, endorsed Chávez's claims of victory in the Venezuelan recall referendum, rather too hastily it now seems.

The problem was that the "observers" hadn't actually observed the election results. Messrs. Carter and Gaviria were only allowed to make a "quick count"--that is, look at the tally sheets spat out by a sample of voting machines. They were not allowed to check this against ballots the machines issued to voters as confirmation that their votes were properly registered.

If there was fraud, as many Venezuelans now suspect, it could have been discovered if the ballots didn't match the computer tallies. The tallies alone were meaningless. The problem was clear by Tuesday but it didn't stop the State Department spokesman Adam Ereli from chiming in. "The people of Venezuela have spoken," he proclaimed.

Mr. Carter marveled at the huge turnout on Sunday. Venezuelans, who have been voting 2-to-1 against Chávez in opinion polls, waited in absurdly long lines to cast more meaningful votes on electronic machines. But did the machine really record the vote as registered on the paper ballot?

According to experts, it is relatively simple to tamper with encryption codes in electronic voting machines. American Enterprise Institute resident scholar John Lott says, "You can easily write a program that tells the voting machine to record something different in its memory than what it prints out on the receipt that is to be dropped in the ballot box."

To rely on the tally sheets alone, as Messrs. Carter and Gaviria did, is to abdicate the heavy responsibility an observer accepts when overseeing an election. A Venezuelan who is a former U.N. deputy high commissioner of human rights wrote of his suspicions in Wednesday's International Herald Tribune (right beside a pro-Chávez New York Times editorial, by the way). Enrique ter Horst cited as cause for concern the fact that "the papers the new machines produced . . . were not added up and compared with the final numbers these machines produce at the end of the voting process, as the voting-machine manufacturer had suggested."

An exit poll done by the prominent U.S. polling firm of Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates showed 59% of voters opposed to Chávez and only 41% in favor. (Messrs. Penn and Schoen both worked for Bill Clinton in his 1996 re-election bid.) Raj Kumar, a principal at the polling firm, told me Thursday that the firm has gone back to try to explain the 34-point spread between the PSB poll and the results announced by the government. "While there are certainly biases that can impact any exit poll, we do not see any factor that could account for such a significant difference," he said.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 10:27 AM

'"According to experts, it is relatively simple to tamper with encryption codes in electronic voting machines. American Enterprise Institute resident scholar John Lott says, "You can easily write a program that tells the voting machine to record something different in its memory than what it prints out on the receipt that is to be dropped in the ballot box."'


             Yes, we had that experience in the US in Florida in 2000, and again in Ohio in 2004.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:02 PM

Chavez has strong support in Venezuela among the poorer people, and his opposition is strongest among the wealthier people. Hmmmm. Doesn't that tell you something, Sawzaw? He has been elected repeatedly because the most economically disadvantaged people in his own country figure he's on their side. Guess who isn't on their side: large American corporate interests and the CIA and the rich people, who attempted to topple him in a coup. You seem quite sad that they failed to do so. This suggests to me that you prefer coups to democratic elections. Is that right?

Would you prefer it if it was happening in your own society? A coup, I mean? I don't think you would, I think you'd prefer an election....but I guess it doesn't matter when the coup and the bloodshed is happening in Iran or Venezuela or Iraq or Cuba or some other small country that isn't cooperating financially with the great American Overseas Empire, does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM

This suggests to me that you prefer coups to democratic elections. Is that right?

As in 2000...

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:10 PM

Smartmatic has a brief but controversial history. The company was started in Caracas during the late 1990s by engineers Antonio Mugica and Alfredo Anzola. They worked out of downtown Caracas providing small-scale technology services to Latin American banks. Despite having no election experience, the tiny company rocketed from obscurity in 2004 after it was awarded a $100 million contract by the Chávez-dominated National Electoral Council to replace Venezuela's electronic voting machines for the recall vote.

When the council announced the deal, it disingenuously described Smartmatic as a Florida company, though Smartmatic's main operations were in Caracas and the firm had incorporated only a small office in Boca Raton. It then emerged that Smartmatic's ''partner'' in the deal, Bizta Corp., also directed by Anzola and Mugica, was partly owned by the Venezuelan government through a series of intermediary shell corporations. Venezuela initially denied its investment but eventually sold its stake

Flush with cash from its Venezuelan adventures, Smartmatic International incorporated in Delaware last year and purchased Sequoia, announcing the deal as a merger between two U.S. companies.

Smartmatic says the recall vote was clean and that it is independent of the Chávez government. Responding to my inquiries, Smartmatic-Sequoias sent a written statement: ``Sequoia's products consist only of voting devices and systems, all of which must be federally and state tested and certified prior to use in an election. As Sequoia's products do not have military, defense or national security applications, they do not fall within the parameters of the matters governed by CFIUS.''

In fact, Smartmatic International is owned by a Netherlands corporation, which is in turn owned by a Curacao corporation, which is in turn held by a number of Curacao trusts controlled by proxy holders who represent unnamed investors, almost certainly among them Venezuelans Mugica and Anzola and possibly others.

Why Smartmatic has chosen yet again to abuse the corporate form apparently to conceal the nationality and identity of its true owners is a question that should worry anyone who votes using one of its machines. Congress panicked upon hearing that our ports would be run by an American ally, Dubai, but never asked whether America's actual enemies in Venezuela have been able to acquire influence in our electoral process.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:16 PM

The owner of one of the companies making the voting machines that were used in the 2000 election vowed to deliver the election to GW Bush. And he did, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 11:33 PM

"vowed to deliver the election to GW Bush" When where and how?

Homicides have soared from fewer than 6,000 in Chávez's first year in office to 13,156 last year

Washington Post Foreign Service
Tuesday, November 18, 2008

CARACAS, Venezuela -- Three of Miriam Sánchez's sons had already been shot dead in neighborhoods where the crackle of gunfire is a nightly occurrence. So she feared the worst when word arrived one recent night that her 24-year-old son, José Luis Arias, had been shot.

Sánchez found his bullet-riddled body off one of the narrow passageways of a violent slum -- another murder among thousands that have made Venezuela one of the world's most violent countries. Those slayings have exposed the government's inability to formulate a response to the sharply rising crime rate, a central theme of opposition politicians vying for governorships and mayoral posts in Sunday's regional elections.

For the first time in years, Venezuela's political opposition is poised to break President Hugo Chávez's nearly complete hold on local and state offices. Sánchez is one reason why.

She is among those who supported Chávez in the past but is now considering a vote against the president's candidates because of the government's hapless response to rising crime rates. Of her four slain children, three were killed since Chávez took office in 1999.

"This is a nightmare for any mother," said Sánchez, 45, sitting in her tiny, stuffy home high in a poor barrio. "I tell you it hurt, and it still hurts, because I see there are more criminals than police, and there is no safety in this country."

As Chávez completes a tumultuous decade in power, polls show that Venezuelans are most concerned about rampant crime in this oil-rich country. Homicides have soared from fewer than 6,000 in Chávez's first year in office to 13,156 last year, according to official government statistics collected and released by private research organizations. That amounts to a homicide rate of 48 killings per 100,000 people, among the highest in the world and more than in neighboring Colombia, which suffers from a slow-burning internal conflict.

Here in the capital, the rate is even higher -- 130 homicides per 100,000 people, translating last year to a total of 2,710 killings.

"Venezuela is going through the biggest crisis in public security in years," said Luis Cedeño, director of Incosec, a crime policy analysis group in Caracas. "Most Venezuelans live in fear of being in a public space, of being victims in public transportation, and they live in fear of being victims in their houses."

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:02 AM

I remembered some of the details incorrectly.


This was written in March of 2004...

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html

"Walden 'Wally' O'Dell was the chairman of the board and chief executive of Diebold...O'Dell last fall penned a letter pledging his commitment 'to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President.'"

And that is what he did.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:44 AM

Frankly, as this economic situation plays out, I think Jimmy Carter's fortunes will rise exponentially.   He had to vision to establish both the Department of Education and the Department of Energy, and those are the most vital issues for getting out of this mess.
    If the American people had listened to him instead of going off with the babbling buffoon, Reagan, the country would be in much better shape today.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

I think that's probably true.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: pdq
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:24 PM

World Top 10 - Countries With Highest Murder Rates

Country               Murder Rates
Honduras                     154.02 / 100,000 population
South Africa                121.91
Swaziland                     93.32
Colombia                      69.98
Lesotho                         50.41
Rwanda                        45.08
Jamaica                        45.08
El. Salvador                  36.88
Venezuela                     33.20
Bolivia                         31.98

{these numbers may date from 2002, not sure, but they do show somthing odd: Venezuela is the only one which qualifies as "oil rich"...the others are very poor}

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:38 PM

Of course, if one sets out to improve one's quality of life through murder, one has to sure to murder the right people.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:41 PM

Going by what I've seen in Trinidad (where there is a very high crime rate, and frequent violent kidnappings for ransom which sometimes end in murder), I think poverty is generally the primary engine of crime....and specially extreme poverty which exists alongside the presence of an obviously wealthy elite. It is the social disparities between rich and poor as much as the poverty that will drive the crime rate up.

Another thing that can exacerbate the situation is a corrupt government and police force. If the police themselves are subject to bribes and corruption on every level, as is the case in Trinidad and has always been the case in much of Latin America, then it can only get worse.

Another thing that can drive crime up is a poor educational system.

Another thing is the illegal drug trade.

Another thing is competitive political games between different partisan factions who use criminal elements to promote instability.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: pdq
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

"The owner of one of the companies making the voting machines that were used in the 2000 election vowed to deliver the election to GW Bush. And he did, too"

That is absolute crap and should have been shouted-down by our news media over 8 years ago. If Florida had not counted the tens of thousands of "snowbird" votes by people who live in Chicago, New York and New Jersey in the summer and spend the winter in Florida, George W. Bush would have won by 10s of thousands of votes. As so, he got 1604 more votes on election night. Yes, he won.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:26 PM

Check out my post after that one, in which I corrected the details and provided documentation.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:26 PM

You're just believing what you want to believe, pdq. ;-) And so are all the people you disagree with. (double ;-) ) It's how the human ego functions. It first decides what it wants to believe...it then runs around collecting "proof"...it then harangues others with that "proof", while ignoring, denying or discounting any conflicting information that would threaten its beliefs. This keeps it busy and enhances its sense of identity, while comforting it with a sense of its own rightness and increasing its instinctive contempt and loathing of all those who disagree with it. It is utterly unaware of its own innate unfairness and lack of objectivity...but acutely aware of others' innate unfairness and lack of objectivity. It blames everyone else around it for its own pathological need to be "right" at their expense.

Welcome to the human club, man! ;-) We are the reason for our own distress and confusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 01:54 PM

LH - It's seems as though, over a long period of time, one would be able to assess right and wrong answers to some of these disagreements. It doesn't make sense that everything can be directed to a successful conclusion on the basis of opinion alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:26 PM

There is always that possibility, yes. Still, most people basically just believe whatever it is that they want to believe...and they only search out the facts which support their belief. That's how the human mind functions.

You can usually find some facts which appear to support either side of any given argument, and you can easily ignore those that don't...or just reason your way around them somehow. That is exactly what people generally do.

I'm not saying there isn't an ultimate and final truth. There always is. Sometimes it's a mixed truth...that is to say, both sides can be partly right and partly wrong. But it's not the truth that people are really after. What they are after is to "win" the confrontation. They may think they're after the truth, they may believe it with all assurance, but what they are truly after is victory over their opponent(s).

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: bankley
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 02:27 PM

and I plan on stopping by Plains again in April. The General Store has lots of Jimmy memorabalia, all his books, novelties and old Creek arrowheads dug up by farmers in the area. The owner likes to tell corny jokes and you won't hear negative talk about their local son. "Yes, We Pecan"

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:30 PM

No! No! It's not pecan, it's peanut!

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Sawzaw
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 10:03 PM

CC: Even if Odell did do what he said the was "committed to", not vowed as you mis-characterized it, what does that have to do with elections in Venezuela or Jimmy Carter?

If you read the article, it says that if anybody rigged the election via the voting machines, it was Chavez, not the opposition.

And now the same company has bought and American voting machine company and the true owners are unknown.

Subject: RE: BS: Lucky to have Jimmy Carter
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:55 PM

I suspect that there has been some vote rigging in most of the past USA elections (sometimes it benefited one side, sometimes the other, sometimes both)...and I bet there's been vote rigging in a great many Latin American elections, if not most of them. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Chavez rigged some of the votes. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if his enemies did so either, but it's always a lot easier for the government that's already in power to rig votes than it is for a challenger. Why? Well, the government has more connections in place to do it, that's why.

Incumbents tend to have special advantages when it comes to rigging the game, and they will always use them if they think they can get away with it.

Is Chavez an angel? Ha! Hell, no! And what about the people who'd like to bring him down? The people in league with the CIA and US business interests. Are they angels? Hell, no! I think they're probably quite a bit worse than Chavez, but that's always open to debate, of course, isn't it, Sawzaw?