BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: robomatic
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 06:49 PM

As far as Uncle Tom and Aunt Jemima as symbols go:
It was my understanding that the original Uncle Tom was a hero, but rather recently, as in within the last couple generations, the term was one of opprobrium for a co-opted black man, as opposed, to a proud if not angry black man, the co-opted one becoming an apologist for a system of oppression however conceived.

I believe the term "Oreo" (black on the outside, white on the inside) to be a synonym to "Uncle Tom". There are many reasons to re-think the accuracy and appropriateness of both those terms, particularly as Al Qaeda has got in on the language and called our new President a "house negro".

I think the larger issue is whether or not using racial terminology in the context of rebellion against the system is relevant when "the system" approaches a "tipping point" of substantial multi-ethnic, multi-racial representation. "The Man" is now THE MAN.

Azizi, I do have a question for you: What was your take on The New Yorker's Obama Cover that came out last Summer?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:42 PM

The thing is - pretty well all of us do actually fit into some kind of stereotype. (When you think of it, when people talk about "role models" they are recognising that to be the case.)

It's just, even if onlookers get the right stereotype, rather than one that doesn't fit us, that right stereotype won't actually tell the whole truth about us, or most times, even the most important truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 01:17 PM

Mae West in I'm no Angel, 1933 -"Beulah, peel me a grape". (The quote's not in the clip - but Beulah is.)

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 12:19 PM

Perhaps there are also some interesting folklore leads here:

QWIKIPEDIA    Note: LANGUAGE ALERT.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:12 AM

See this complete review by Nigel Watson of Donald Bogle's highly regarded book Toms, Coons, Mulattoes, Mammies & Bucks: An Interpretive History of Blacks in American Films

"The title of the book indicates the different mythic types that have been used in mainstream U.S. films to depict black people, and which are easily mistaken as being aspects of real black experience. Briefly the different types can be described as follows:
Toms, a good negro character who submissively does everything expected of them, however degrading, and never turns on white people. Often they end up as saintly role models.

Coons, are a source of amusement because they are complete buffoons. There are two variants of this type; 1, the pickaninny being a black child whose eyes pop and plays about in a diverting manner; 2, the uncle remus, who is as saintly as the tom type, but he tends to be quaint, naive and comic in his philosophical assertions. As Bogle notes: 'The pure coons emerged as no-account niggers, those unreliable, crazy, lazy, subhuman creatures good for nothing more than eating watermelons, stealing chickens, shooting crap, or butchering the English language.'

Mulattoes, are usually tragic fair-skinned women who live as a white person, but have the secret of black blood in their veins. It is ironic that such characters were usually played by white actresses so that there were no problems for the white audiences' identification with her traumas.

Mammies, are similar to the coons, but she is fiercely independent in her domestic domain. A good example of this role is in Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House (1948). It is the mammy (Louise Beavers) who gives Mr. Blandings (Cary Grant) the advertising slogan that saves his job, house and family, and all she gets is a $10 rise!

Bucks, constitute the brutal black man out to cause havoc. Often the savage and violent character is also over-sexed and eager to get more than his hands on white women.

Bogle's view is that the best black actors who had to play these types actually subverted and transcended their stereotyping and gave pleasure to black and white audiences.

It is significant that even with more black stars on our screens they often conform to the old stereotypes. Eddie Murphy can be regarded as a coon-type and Whoopi Goldberg as a mammy- type. Denzel Washington's, Malcolm X is a buck (at first). This just shows that we haven't really got beyond old and shameful ideas, and this book makes you stop and think about how easy it is for stereotyping to continue even if they are dressed-up in more accessible forms."

http://www.talkingpix.co.uk/Books_Mammies.html

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 08:04 AM

The association of the female name "Beulah" with "Aunt Jemima" is directly attributed to the radio series and the television "Beulah" series.

See this excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beulah_(series) :

"The Beulah Show is an American situation-comedy series that ran in radio on CBS from 1945 to 1954, and in television on ABC from 1950 to 1953. It is notable for being the first sitcom to star an African American...

Like the contemporary television program Amos 'n' Andy, Beulah came under attack from many critics, including the NAACP, which accused the show of supporting stereotypical depictions of black characters. Beulah is considered by some to be a characterization of the stereotypical "mammy", similar to "Aunt Jemima".

After Beulah was cancelled at the end of the 1952-53 television season, black characters virtually disappeared from television, with only small and infrequent roles surfacing. The next television program to star a black woman in the title role was Julia in 1968, starring Diahann Carroll."

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:54 AM

katlaughing and others, as you probably know, the Hebrew female name "Beulah" means "married".

I believe that "Beulah" is used so often in the name of African American churches because of its Old Testament use and not its literal meaning. The Biblical use of the word "Beulah land" caused this word to be adopted by 19th century African Americans as an indirect reference for Canada, where formerly enslaved people could live as free people without the threat present in the Northern United States of being recaptured and returned into bondage.

See this exerpt from Rereading Isaiah 62:4: Beulah Land
by Claude Mariottini, Professor of Old Testament at Northern Baptist Seminary.

I'm quoting this article at length as a means of helping to preserve this information.

"One of my favorite hymns is Beulah Land, a hymn written by Edgar Page Stites and John R. Sweney:

I've reached the land of corn and wine,
And all its riches freely mine;
Here shines undimmed one blissful day,
For all my night has passed away.

Refrain

O Beulah Land, sweet Beulah Land,
As on thy highest mount I stand,
I look away across the sea,
Where mansions are prepared for me,
And view the shining glory shore,
My Heav'n, my home forever more!

My Savior comes and walks with me,
And sweet communion here have we;
He gently leads me by His hand,
For this is Heaven's border land.

The beauty of this hymn is that it speaks of the eternal glory prepared for believers. Beulah Land is "Heaven's border land," a land where "shines undimmed one blissful day, For all my night has passed away."

Today, this beautiful hymn is seldom sung in churches where praise songs and contemporary Christian rock music dominate the worship experience. But this phenomenon is not peculiar to contemporary churches. A brief survey of hymnals from several denominations reveals that this hymn is either unknown or no longer relevant to many churches.

The theme of Beulah Land appears in many Christian hymns but many people who know the hymn, sing its words, and love its message do not know the story behind Beulah Land.

The concept of Beulah Land comes from a passage found in Isaiah 62: 4. The reason many people are unfamiliar with the concept of Beulah Land is because the word appears only in older translations of Isaiah 62:4, including the King James Version and the American Standard Version of 1901:

Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah; for Jehovah delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married (Isaiah 62:4 ASV).

The words of the prophet are words of encouragement: Never again will you be called the Godforsaken City (Isaiah 62:4 NLB). Because of its exile in Babylon, the people of Judah believed that God had forsaken his people: Zion said, "The LORD has forsaken me, my Lord has forgotten me" (Isaiah 49:14)...

The metaphor of marriage is used in the Old Testament to describe the relationship between God and his people. The concept of Yahweh as Israel's husband appears in Hosea, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. This idea is clearly expressed in Isaiah 62:5: As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you...

To the surprise of many, the idea of the land of Beulah as heaven's border land comes from John Bunyan's Pilgrim Progress. In his work, Bunyan says that "the Enchanted ground is place so nigh to the land Beulah, and so near the end of their race." He also says that the land of Beulah is the place "where the sun shineth night and day."

Bunyan's concept of Beulah land as heaven's border land entered into Christian hymns through the Holiness Movement in America"...

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 07:32 AM

mg, I continue to believe and promote the position that people should seek to eradicate stereotypes from their own mind and from the mass media etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: mg
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 12:04 AM

I think that sometimes they can be used to counteract negative stereotypes though, even if they are exaggerated etc. Take the Italian organ grinder with his little monkey. If you have that stereotype firmly in your mind, you will not think Italian = Mafia, which of course it doesn't. It might not be a stereotype Italians like, but it seems better to me than the other one they have to face.

Take the Irish -- when they came here they were disease-ridden, dressed in rags, probably scary-looking, driven to crime sometimes, certainly to drink and fighting. There is that stereotype..there is also the one you see on St. Patrick's day cards, the jolly stage Irish..his shilleighi?? reduced to a cute accessory rather than a powerful weapon (I am sure there is some Freudian psychology here).this probably helped reduce negative or fear-based stereotypes, and every ethnic group probably has to deal with some..if not physical, then perhaps political or finanical..the WASP who wants to lord it over everyone, when probably most in the past were pretty poor...see what I mean? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:38 PM

I had an aunt Beulah and a great-grandmother who was also named Beulah. I've never heard of it being used in a negative way.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 10:55 PM

mg, I agree with you that it is good to give respect to our elders and to hardworking people of every race and ethnicity. But I believe that in the long run it demeans us all to use stereotypical images to depict any group of people.

Individuals, ethnic groups, and races are multifaceted. People are much too complicated for stereotypes.

Besides that, stereotypes help perpetuate misunderstandings and divisions between people. If we are to ever really know one another, we have to put aside our stereotypes of each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 08:16 PM

Topsy, of course, was a child slave in Uncle Tom's cabin who "just growed".

It was also, incidentally, William Morris's nickname. And the elephant who was electrocuted as a stunt by the unspeakable Thomas Edison was also called Topsy.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 08:01 PM

It is confusing for some of us because we see Aunt Jemima, Uncle Ben, probably some others..the man who sells the Columbian Coffee..Juan Valdez, Mrs. Olson of Folger's Coffee, as positive images..now we have been educated to the contrary, that people do find them offensive...but they weren't meant to offend people..they wouldn't have sold products if they were. And some of them fall into not fundamentally racial, but universal stereotypes..the dignified older worker, the grandmotherly cook type, the honest working man, the immigrant who thrives after adversity...Midge? the manicurist, Joe the Plumber...we deep in our American psyche honor these hardworking people..we had grandparents and parents who followed the same paths..the Italian craftsman, the Serbian fisherman, the Irish washerwoman, the Polish butcher..I think these are universal prototypes of America basically and I think when all is said and done that the good that came out of these stereotypes, in terms of breaking down fears among various ethnic groups, will be seen to outweight the bad. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:01 AM

Also, fwiw, that Wikipedia page notes that "Today, "Beulah" and "Aunt Jemima" are regarded as more or less interchangeable as terms of disparagement"...

I've never heard or read the name "Beulah" as an term of dispargement. But maybe I don't hang in the right crowds or see the right television shows, or listen to the right radio talk shows, or read the right books, magazines, newspapers, or online blogs...

Imo, "Beulah" is mostly found in African American communities as one of those common names for Baptist churches {I'm not exaggerating when I say that you could visit any US city that has a sizable population of Black folks and find a Beulah Baptist Church, a Macedonia Baptist Church, a Ebenezer Baptist Church, a Union Baptist Church, and First Baptist Church and a Second Baptist Church}.

That said, the female personal name "Jemima" appears to have been rarely given to Black females since at least the early 1940s. And the female name "Beulah" and the male names "Rufus" and Leroy, to cite a few, are negatively regarded by many contemporary African Americans as being old timey names. These names and such female "double names" as "Ora Lee" and "Lula Mae" have similar if not the same "country" connotations as the Aunt Jemima song in the Talley collection.

Okay, I was really on a roll, but I've caught myself. I'll stop with there with my off-topic comments.

:o)

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 10:41 AM

Although it's off-topic, for the record, here's the words to that Aunt Jemima song that I mentioned in my last post:

AUNT JEMIMA

Ole Aunt Jemima grow so tall,
Dat she couldn' see da groun'.
She stumped her toe, an' down she fell
From de Blackwoods clean to town.

W'en Aunt Jemima git in town,
An' see dem "tony" ways,
She natchully faint an' back she fell
To de Blackwoods whar she stays.

[Thomas W. Talley, Negro Folk Rhymes (Kennikat Press Edition, 1968, p. 107; originally published in 1922)

-snip-

In that song "Aunt Jemima" type Black women were being 'put down' because of their rural background & ways, and not because they ingratiated herself to White folks. But when Black people felt we needed a female counterpart to Uncle Tom, Aunt Jemima was chosen. I believe that this wasn't so much because of the fictitious Aunt Jemima character herself {as she was portrayed by women who dressed the part to promote that brand of pancake mix}. Instead, I think that the name "Aunt Jemima" was chosen because it was a familiar name, and because of how that character was drawn by White folks in the early to mid twentieth century. If you notice the Aunt Jemima drawing on the pancake mix today, her image is decidedly different than the image on the earlier packages and advertisements...

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 10:11 AM

Fwiw, Richard, I've never heard the saying "I ain't nobody's Topsy". It would be interesting to learn that "Topsy" is used as a pejorative referent for Black women in England where (if I recall correctly) you live, or in the USA where I live. It would also be interesting if either "Topsy" or "Aunt Jemima" is used as a dismissive term or a pejorative referent for White women or for any other women of color besides Black women.

Imo, the referent "Uncle Tom" is much more commonly used in the USA than "Aunt Jemima". Truth be told, I rarely have read or heard anyone refer to a woman as an "Aunt Jemima". And I can't ever recall ever using that referent to describe someone. In contrast, while I personally don't use that term a lot, there have been times {like in this thread) when I have labeled someone as an Uncle Tom.

Also, I think that "Aunt Jemim" is a much newer referent than "Uncle Tom". I'd guess that Aunt Jemima started being used in this way in the 1970s or 1980s. Before that and since, I believe that we (African Americans} use/d the term "handkerchief head" for female counterparts of Uncle Tom. "Handkerchief heads" refers to the bandanas that many 19th century and earlier Black American women in the South wore to cover their hair. However, Black men can also be described as being "handkerchief heads". I believe that it's noteworthy that Zora Neale Hurston's - Glossary of Harlem Slang defines the term "handkerchief head" as a "sycophant type of Negro; also an Uncle Tom". That 1930s glossary doesn't define "Uncle Tom" {perhaps because the meaning of that referent was so common]. But it doesn't include the referent "Aunt Jemima" or otherwise refer to it. This might mean that "Aunt Jemima" wasn't used then in the same dismissive or perjorative way that it is known to be used now.
I say "the same" because there's at least one song in Thomas W. Tally's classic 1922 book Negro Folk Rhymes, Wise and Otherwise that puts down a woman named Jemima because of her "country ways" and not because of her "Tomish" attitudes or behaviors.

**

Here's a decription of [the modern usage of] the term "Aunt Jemima":

"Aunt Jemima is a trademark for pancake flour, syrup, and other breakfast foods currently owned by the Quaker Oats Company. The trademark dates to 1893, although Aunt Jemima pancake mix debuted in 1889. The phrase "Aunt Jemima" is sometimes used as a female version of "Uncle Tom," known as a Mammy archetype, to refer to a black woman who is perceived as obsequiously servile or acting in, or protective of, the interests of whites.[1]

The 1950s television show Beulah came under fire for depicting a "mammy"-like black maid and cook who was somewhat reminiscent of Aunt Jemima. Today, "Beulah" and "Aunt Jemima" are regarded as more or less interchangeable as terms of disparagement"...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aunt_Jemima

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 09:19 AM

Interesting: the expression that a friend of mine used to use, years ago, when angry about the idea that since she was all right and doing well she ought not to rock the boat was "I ain't nobody's Topsy". Was she the one out of step with conventional parlance or when did "Topsy" change to "Aunt Jemima"?

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 08:55 AM

He [Williams] appears on Fox News, but he is usually cast as the liberal voice in panel discussions.

Q.E.D.

In case anyone needed a reminder of what absolute horseshit is vomited forth by Fox 'News'[sic].

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: GUEST,Oh Jemima...
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:23 AM

Hello,

I've been trying rather hard to find an mp3 of "Oh Jemima" for my grandmother's birthday.

Could you PLEASE help me locate one?

Much gratitude,

Mark
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:48 PM

"Comes the dawn. I've..."

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM

Mr. Riginslimer--

Comes the dawn   I've finally figured out why you defend the needlessly incendiary remarks of a Faux News shill.

It's because something else I've said also applies perfectly both to Faux News and you:   "All their best-laid plans lie in ruins--and they're desperate for some sort of credibility."

Consider:   you both predicted nothing but disaster for Obama--first against Hillary and then against McCain/ Palin. And of course both did their bit to try to assist in Obama's defeat by spreading any crackpot rumor imaginable.

Too bad it didn't work.   

Still curious--you haven't answered:   have you gotten used to saying "President Obama" yet?   Hope it doesn't hurt you too much--you'll have to do it for a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:50 PM

Or that she's a mother as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:27 PM

"an angry Black woman who hates America"

I can't see how the notion about Michelle Obama being particularly angry is likely to have much chance of catching on unless she actually stops looking so agreeable every time she appears in public.

As for her hating America, that doesn't seem too likely to ctach on outside the lunatic fringe. (I grant it you've got quite a sizeable lunatic fringe in the States, being such a big country|) Just doesn't stand up.

Which just leaves that she's black and she's a woman. Can't deny that those are true.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:11 PM

Your opinion, but I think there has been some very good stuff on this thread. There are all sorts of interlocking questions here, probably none with easy answers, but it is a journey we all probably will be on for a while. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 07:26 PM

In the present climate of togetherness and bi-partisanship created by the election of Mr Obama, I think this thread should be closed forthwith.
Obviously tired of scouring the threads for racial misdemeanours, Miss Azizi has taken to actively encouraging them...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 06:59 PM

It was? Gee, Azizi, I thought everyone would have been happy to be a slave (except, of course, the slaves themselves). As someone said, "If your slaves are so contented with their lot, why haven't you joined them?"

As Lincoln said, "Just as I would not be a slave, neither would I be a master."

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:56 AM

I hasten to say that those "pre-emancipation images of Black folk grinning widely, content in their lot as enslaved persons" were false.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:54 AM

Sorry for the small "o" for the name Michelle Obama.

And while I'm here, let me emphasize the fact that since the 1970s, the referent "Negro" is not an accepted formal or informal group or individual referent for African Americans.

The word "negro" with a small "n" or with a capital "N" is used as a pejorative referent for a Black person who acts in a subservient manner toward White people, or a Black peson who otherwise acts in a manner that is considered [by other Black people] to be against the best interest of Black people.

Fwiw, I'd never seen or heard the phrase "Happy Negro" before reading that article. Thanks, Jim, for posting a link to it. I think that phrase probably comes about as a result of the pre-emancipation images of Black folk grinning widely, content in their lot as enslaved persons. Given the way that the author of that linked article used "Happy Negro", I'd say its meaning is very similar if not the same as "Uncle Tom".

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:43 AM

"meme (pronounced /mi¢°m/)[1] comprises any idea or behavior that can pass from one person to another by learning or imitation. Examples include thoughts, ideas, theories, gestures, practices, fashions, habits, songs, and dances. Memes propagate themselves and can move through the cultural sociosphere in a manner similar to the contagious behavior of a virus."
-http://www.answers.com/topic/meme

This thread is not just about Juan Williams.

I started this thread out of concern that left alone, Williams and other of his ilk would succeed in establishing the meme that "Michelle obama was an angry Black woman who hates America".

Although I agree that "Memes propagate themselves and can move through the cultural sociosphere in a manner similar to the contagious behavior of a virus", I also believe that most memes don't get embedded in people's minds overnight. Those who seek to implant these memes prefer the slow and steady drip drip drip of poison until the meme they have started becomes so deeply rooted that it would be very difficult to extricate.

Unfortunately, America's history of racism & sexism and the fact that racism and sexism have not been eradicated just because we have a Black President, mean that there is still fertile soil to plant this particular pernicious meme about Michelle Obama.

For example, see this YouTube video:

Racism in Disney Movies

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:36 AM

Just hoping to set the record straight on Juan Williams. He appears on Fox News, but he is usually cast as the liberal voice in panel discussions.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 11:11 AM

After reading the first paragraph of the thread, I stopped. I find this topic extremely divisive and renewing of what is, IMO, better handled in positivity.

Yes there is still work to be done. Let's do it, instead of repeating and reinforcing the divisions of the past.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Jim, I didn't know that about Juan Williams, either. I've always enjoyed his reporting on NPR, but never knew he was so conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 10:28 AM

Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:34 AM

Mr. Riginslimer--

Nothing I have said is inaccurate.   As I said, global warming is by no means an apolitical topic.

Your record on virtually everything is a perfect negative indicator--look it up.

Have you gotten used to saying "President Obama" yet?

It's interesting that you evidently feel personally affronted by my suggestion to actually do research and think before posting.   Do you think I might have had you in mind? If the shoe fits......

And by the way, what kind of music do you like? We don't need "politics only" posters.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:24 AM

You're so right Ron, and you might want to remember that before you post next time. Flatow did "Talk of the Nation" only on Friday when it was devoted to science, and then changed to "Science Friday." Find below Flatow's career at NPR.


Flatow was born in to a Jewish family in New York City where his first experience with a television news program was in his high school. In 1967, however, Flatow entered college to pursue an engineering degree at the State University of New York at Buffalo, where he received his bachelor's degree in 1971.[1] He began working in radio at WBFO, in Buffalo, New York and his first news stories covered antiwar demonstrations and riots. Flatow's first science stories were created in 1970 during the first Earth Day. In 1971, he became the news director of WBFO.

Flatow was hired by the newly-formed National Public Radio in Washington, DC in 1971. There he covered the environment, health and medicine news, and technology stories. While at NPR, Flatow began to host the Friday edition of Talk of the Nation which became known as Science Friday. From 1982 through 1987 he hosted Newton's Apple, which originated at KTCA in St. Paul, Minnesota.

In 1991, he wrote and reported science and technology for CBS News' "CBS This Morning." He has written and host various PBS TV specials, including "Transistorized!"

Flatow is founder and president of TalkingScience, non-profit company dedicated to creating radio, TV, and Internet projects that make science "user friendly".

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:20 AM

I'm disappointed to hear this about Juan Williams. I was familiar with his work on NPR but not on Fox News. I never noticed that he had a conservative streak. Thanks for calling my attention to this.

Here's an interesting blog article about Williams by Boyce Watkins. Watkins criticizes Williams for kissing up to Bill O'Reilly. He called Williams a "Happy Negro" (which strikes me as a milder term than "Uncle Tom"—but I'm not sure about that). He says, "On CNN, I compared O'Reilly's use of Williams to Hugh Hefner hiring a stripper to tell him that he's not a sexist."

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:57 PM

He now does Science Friday.   He may well have done Talk of the Nation--BWL and I think he did.   And as for "apolitical", quite a few people think that global warming, which they deal with on Science Friday, among other subjects, is a rather hot political topic.

It pays to do a bit of research--and even a bit of thinking-- before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:13 PM

Ira Flatow does "Science Friday," a program that goes out of its way to remain apolitical.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 10:46 PM

You're right, Ron, it was Ira Flato.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:33 PM

I used to actually like Juan's commentaries and some of the programs he moderated. But evidently since he's been hanging around Bill Oh-Really? , he's gone downhill.

And if this turns into a big splash, he'll win points with Bill.

Another sterling reason to ignore it.



I thought it was somebody called Ira Flato--or something like that--who did "Talk of the Nation"--which was a singularly worthless program, true.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:23 PM

Juan Williams is a Senior Correspondent for National Public Radio. That basically means he's on their payroll, but nobody knows exactly what he does. I think he used to host NPR's version of talk radio, a program called "Talk of the Nation". I hated it. (But I hate ALL talk radio/call-in programs.) Nowadays, he comes on the radio a few times a week and talks with whoever's anchoring the program. Apparently, he does the same thing on Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:04 PM

Juan Williams is a person of color who appears as a guest on Fox News from time to time, but is traditionally known for his contributions to NPR and Public Television.

                He takes strong positions on most issues, and seems to me at least to be a pretty deep thinker. I don't recall seeing him "buying into the party line," regardless of the party.

                On Fox, he is used as a left-wing sounding board, much like Alan Colmbs(sp?) is. The problem with this venue is, the "right" side is so far right, the middle reflects the views of Barry Goldwater.

                I think it's safe to say, though, that Juan Williams expresses views that are his own and well thought out. Sometimes people on the left agree with him, sometimes people on the right agree with him, but nobody can change his opinions without good hard proven facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 09:03 PM

Well, let's go back to the first post, check the link to BET, and read what Williams actually said. He said Michelle's instinct is to blame the US .   That's obviously wrong. His supposed illustration of this is to say that "if that stuff (blame America first) comes out, people will go bananas".

Note that little word "if". Point is: Michelle Obama, in addition to being an elegant, accomplished woman, is smart as a whip. Therefore she knows better than to ever start with "blame America" rhetoric. She said one thing during the campaign about being proud of the US "for the first time"--- not "blame America" rhetoric--but nobody has ever let her forget she said it.

If they dig up militant speech from her past--and you would think if there were anything substantial, they would have been trumpeting it long before now--she can just point out that she's not exactly the first young radical to have moderated views with time. And that will be the end of it.

She and Barack are the best possible role models imaginable--and she's not about to create needless trouble for her husband, the President, by engaging in behavior such as Williams is shooting off his mouth about.

She's actually far more likely to be a spokesman for "stay in school"--which will resonate hugely due to the success of the Obamas by doing just that.

Also, remember Williams is a commentator--on Fox News yet. Controversy is mother's milk to them.

Just let it go. At this point, who cares what anybody on Fox News says? All their best-laid plans lie in ruins--and they're desperate for some sort of credibility. Or failing that, higher ratings.

Just remember Fox News is very Shakespearean--full of sound and fury and.....

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: kendall
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:52 PM

Who is Jaun Williams? Never heard of him. Don't want to either.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:22 PM

Sometimes it's not only necessary but it's a good deed to let a brother know he should check himself out cause his dishin out dirt dirties himself up and not the person he's tryin to dirty.

And sometimes it's also necessary to let a brother and those who sent him out to do dirt know that we're smart enough not to be taken in by his act.

And that's all I'm gonna say about this.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:05 PM

Well, I ain't gettin' in to no names but one man's Uncle Tom is another's activist...

I mean, in some ways it generational... Some of the older black guys that I play blues with seem more like my white father 'cause of the times they grew up... They ain't into that rowdy stuff and even though they are only 20 years older than me they just didn't get the 60's all the tough... They were out workin'...

I think everything is relative when it comes to Uncle Tom...

He used to be the house negro a long time ago...

Like I said, times change...

Yeah, there are always folks who work cross-purpose to their own interests...

A lot Southern white folk fall in that category...

That's as far as I'm goin' fir now...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: van lingle
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 08:05 PM

I totally agree with guest mg. I've been listening to Juan Williams on NPR for a long time and he seems to be a very thoughtful commentator and nowhere near your standard Faux News conservative hit man.

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 07:40 PM

Michelle Obama is supposed to pick her clothes by the ethnicity of the designer, instead of picking what she likes to wear? Gimme a break!

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM

I think this is horrifying. I also think it is quite possible that Juan Williams is voicing his honest opinion, which may be at times totally wrong, pig-headed, or whatever. I have seen him many times and like his point of view usually. I also like Michelle Obama and the president. He gets to think what he wants to think and say what he wants to say, up to some line no one should cross...It is OK to say Juan Williams is totally misinformed, he is illogical, wrong in his thinking etc, rude to the first lady, whatever. It is not OK, at least in my book, to refer to him as an Uncle Tom or a lawn jockey for expressing his personal opinion. This is America. He gets to. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Modern Day Uncle Toms & Aunt Jemimas
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 06:52 PM

Well, one thing I believe she has gotten right is to not be suckered into the cesspool by the yappy turds who populate it.

May she continue to have that strength to draw on.

The hate-mongers mentioned in this thread are a disgrace to American education.



A