BS: The Child Presages the Man

Subject: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jan 09 - 11:34 PM

Oh, oh. This is one of those threads that some here will just hate but I'm a brave - if foolish - person. There's nothing you can do to hurt me -nyaa, nyaa, nyaa

I've been mulling on this subject the last few months, ever since I started a part time job serving lunches to elementary school (and high school kids at a different school too, but that is a different subject).

The children I speak of range in age from 5 to perhaps 11. They are mostly cute as California quail chicks and I enjoy them a lot.

Most of them are also 'normal' kids, nothing particularly outstanding about them at least not on this superficial level.

But there are some who are old. Some are old in the sense of prematurely careworn people but mostly I'm thinking of those whose spirits portend something, I just don't know what. There is a steadiness in their eyes, a knowledge, a balance, that is head and shoulders above what I tend to expect from school kids

I would call them 'old souls'.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 12:03 AM

My daughter is one and so is my grandson, Ebbie. They've been around the block, so to speak, a number of times. Morgan often comes up with the darndest things, things that should be beyond his ken, adult things which just catch you up and really make you marvel and most of all listen.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:20 AM

The funny thing is that I remember when I knew more. I no longer remember what it was but I do remember.

By the way, the title I gave this thread is misleading. A different subject entirely- one that has struck me forcefully recently about being able to tell in many kids what they will look like in later life- as well as in some people you can tell what they looked like when they were kids. But different subject and I'm not sure why I didn't notice I was mixing the subjects.

This 'old' spirit one has me bemused and I like dwelling on it. Do you think your daughter knows she is one, kat? I'm sure that Morgan does - but he may lose the knowledge. Until later. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:39 AM

My son is like that. Even his dad, who doesn't believe in reincarnation, used to say he felt like Ian had been here before and that he came into the world knowing far too much for someone was here for the first time.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Bert
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:59 AM

Actually it's "The Child Presages the Woman".

Girl babies are born into this world knowing and cute and flirtacious. Tree says it is because many primitive societies killed girls at birth and girls had to be especially cute to survive.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 02:09 AM

Ebbie, my dau. has known all of her life. We even did a past life regression and found out she was my mother one time and not very nice! I was a child, hurrying home with a jug of milk, slipped and fell, breaking the jug. I was so upset, during the regression, about how angry she would be, they brought me out of it. We joke about it, now.

Morgan knows, I talk with him about it and, if I have my way, he will always remember. His ability with a "light sabre" is astounding...he does a lot of Asian-style play fighting with that and anything resembling a sword, so I am fairly certain he was Japanese or Chinese in one past life, at least. He also astonished me the other day. The radio was on the college station which was playing a lot of headbanger and/or hard rock music. One set finished and they segued into the next which started out with a lone flute. I thought it sounded Native American, but Morgan immediately lit up and said, "Mama! That's Chinese music!" As it was, it led into a rock song, but it could have been Chinese flute music just as easily as NDN.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 08:56 AM

The child is the father of the man, wrote Wordsworth.

The child is the father of the child is the father of the man is the father of the child....

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 10:32 AM

I love people. :)

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 12:14 PM

Even though, as you all know, I put no stock in 'past lives' or similar ideas. I have said for many years that I never did 'get' being a child in many ways. I didn't like stupid kids' jokes or most of the stories & games that seemed to me awkward or trite.

   I argued with 'authority' about what to accept as truth & fact as soon as I could frame the questions. When I was 9-10, I was
told' that those tornadoes that we worried about
"came from the SouthWest". I would NOT accept why a wind would do such a thing until I heard a technical explanation, and my parents didn't have one.

...so, it follows that I don't accept any arcane explanation for how I was... *grin* ....I think it was just weird DNA and 'conditions'.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:07 PM

A little girl who had that look used to live next door to me. Her father is in prison, her mother is a an addict who goes in and out of jail. She has a relatively stable existence because her grandmother cares for her, but her grandmother has a bad heart and is on oxygen. The grandmother should have custody, but the mother refuses to give it because it gives her power. ('If you don't give me money, I'll take the kids away.)

That knowing look comes from fear and bitterness cagily unexpressed.

I am convinced that the life of mainstream kids of today is often of poorer quality than it was when I was a child.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:11 PM

leenia, I agree with you- it must be extremely difficult to be a child today. Whether fortunately or unfortunately, they don't really know that; I'm sure they accept it as the norm.

Kind of like in Dickens' day- kids probably thought life had to be like that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:06 AM

Yes, I agree.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 02:11 PM

Bill D, I'd like to be present when you are "regressed". *g*

My mother's fifth child (she had five more eventually) lived just nine days. My mother said that when Catherine was born, my mother knew from the start that she was 'different', that she knew too much. Evidently the baby looked intently at people's faces as well as around the room. She said that she was not really surprised when the baby died, from no discernible cause. (This was back in 1930)

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 04:52 PM

In my belief system, that probably would have meant she was a very old soul and had no need for this type of incarnation, at the time, i.e. nine days was enough for her to progress to the next plane of existence. Her birth and being there for nine days may also have been for teaching something to those around her besides for her own soul growth.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:25 PM

"Bill D, I'd like to be present when you are "regressed""

Well, Ebbie...come along - but when it turns out that I claim to be the reincarnation of William of Occam, don't look surprised.. *grin*


My guess is that 'regression' is simply like dreaming or using certain drugs.... that is, a way of tapping into subliminal memories and rearranging images and information in ways that make **some** sort of coherent story line. We want the thoughts in our heads to make sense, and if someone is 'guiding' the process, it is even more pressure to ummm..'please' ...the guide.

Why do I always take this approach? Because we KNOW ...sort of... how dreams work and that our heads are full of patterns and memories that we are not conciously aware of, whereas we have NO direct evidence of some metaphysical aspect of 'being' which can transcend physical existence ...or explanation as to how.... it can move from one plane to another.

It's a fascinating **concept**, and obviously quite tempting...just as 'soul' is. No wonder it is easy to buy into.

(which makes me curious... how do folks who believe in BOTH Heaven and reincarnation explain where their 'soul' goes? If one goes to 'Heaven', do they leave Heaven in order to inhabit another body? Are souls like amoebas and divide, so that one 'piece' can enjoy paradise while another piece gets sent down to be an extra voter in Chicago? This would explain how there were only a few million 'souls' in 30,000 BC, and 6 billion now.....of course it doesn't explain at what point our ancestors GOT souls...5 million years ago? 50,000 years ago?")

ah, well.... you pushed the button, Ebbie... *grin*,,, and off I went. This is what I DO.... I ask those questions which certain belief systems don't directly deal with....in the hopes that it will make folks uneasy about easy answers.
.....mean, ain't I?

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:50 PM

Well, you have no way of disproving it, either, Bill.

I don't believe in a heaven, per se, rather different planes of existence. Each soul has a life span of around 144 years or so, but not all of it need be spent here. So, if I were to die at 120, I could hang out on whatever plane I went to for another 20 years or not as time is immaterial in other realms. One hopes each time will be a little higher in the progression of growth. *Remember, I am stating this as part of my belief system.*

As to regression, Bill, if ya ain't done it, don't assume about it. A legitimate practitioner will no more put ideas in your head than the man in the moon. I've been through one really significant one and there was nothing she said to make me think of anything except regressing back through my age to before I was born this time around. Where I went from there was up to me. I have a recording she made. All she was there for was to reassure me if I got scared and help me come out of it when I was done. I was aware at all times AND had NO idea where anything that came to me came from; it certainly was nothing from any dreams or anything I'd read, seen, heard of etc. And, no, I was not the Queen of Sheba, nor anyone else of any worldly significance.

I do wish you'd try AMORC. You are exactly the type who makes the best one of us! A freaking Walking Question Mark!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:22 PM

It's more like a change in frequency than an actual place that is separate from the physical. All of it is all around us all the time, but we can only perceive what our understanding of what we are equipped to perceive allows. The bodyless soul is of a different frequency than a physical body, so the soul sans body is mostly aware of what can be perceived in the frequency that is the same as it. There are always some who can perceive other frequencies, or at least some elements of other frequencies, and that accounts for different people's differing abilities for seeing, hearing, or otherwise perceiving what is not of the same frequency of the physical plane or realm.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:33 PM

The basic concept of soul that I am most familiar with and that makes the most sense to me is that there is no real separation between us and the rest of creation. That we are tiny sparks of the thing that makes up the whole of creation, and as such are a part of it, even though we may only be aware of a very small part of it. We differentiate from the rest of the whole in order to have experiences and to learn and grow, and we do this over and over again, however many times we need to or choose to. We may do this as humans, or we may do it as other forms of life. My understanding of it is that there are many kinds of configurations of these differentiated aspects of consciousness, and that they can involve splitting fragments or combining fragments, and that the number of possibilities for how this can be done are infinite.

All of what is learned and experienced by all of the differentiated aspects of the whole is incorporated into the whole and becomes a part of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 09:08 PM

I agree with both kat and Carol. (I would, wouldn't I!)

Not only do I think that we see/perceive only a small part of what is around us, I think there are unscripted moments when a glimpse of the larger picture comes through. Leaving the UNbeliever befuddled, no doubt, but the BEliever most likely is thrilled. I agree with kat- there ar times when things come through that my own brain has no previous concept of.

Bill D, as far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to keep on keeping on. You may get passionate but you never get nasty. I've learned a lot from you but I am far from convinced that we know everything. We don't even know the important things. Far from knowing the answers we don't even know the right questons.

As I was "told" once by an unseen being when I asked whether he would rather be 'here' or 'there': "That's like asking would I rather be a baby or an adult."

So I still don't know. *g*

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:34 PM

"Well, you have no way of disproving it, either, Bill."

oh my, oh my, oh my.... kat, me love...that is the ONE remark that sets me off lecturing! *wry grin*...luckily, it is late here and I don't have the energy for all 247 paragraphs!

I say now for perhaps the 97th time... **I am not TRYING to disprove anything!**. This is important! I am simply refusing to admit claims/insinuations/speculations made by others... and trying to show WHY they can be explained much more easily by knowledge we DO have.

Where do you GET "a life span of around 144 years or so" for a "soul" to BE part of your *belief system*? Did you pick this out of the air? Did you get it from some tome like The Urantia Book? (one which does speak of "planes of existence")

Ebbie...of course we don't "know everything". Even more reason to not emotionally buy into 'belief systems' which are arbitrary ...

It is not illegal to have personal belief systems...heck, one of 'em might even be correct...but, they cannot **ALL** be!
Many more people DO believe in "Heaven as such." Why are they wrong? You reject that one and adopt a different one... and good old **Daylia** had a different one...and Little Hawk has a still different one.....and various folks are wishing each other relevant seasonal Pagan greetings on another thread today.
In NONE of these cases am I suggesting I can DISprove them......it makes no sense to try. All I or anyone who takes the skeptical attitude can do is to keep suggesting that - BECAUSE not all arbitrary belief systems can be true, it would be well to be VERY cautious about getting too caught up in them. IF one 'likes' a certain system as a metaphor for life and truth and existence, well.. *shrug*... I can see some very good ways to cope and meditate within them. There is some amazing poetry, value assignments and comfort in some of them...and some pretty nasty depths in others.

I seem to be kind of alone in my admonishments.....it is really, really difficult to walk that fuzzy line between cynical ridicule (you've seen that)on one hand and benign neglect on the other. (I'm not sure that 'neglect' is the term I want...but it's late) It is also difficult to be sure I don't sound like I'm accusing people I genuinely respect and care about of being foolish...or worse. It is ideas and the support or lack thereof that concern me.

Sometimes a 'belief system' is downright dangerous and a major concern in life....witness 'some' Muslims' belief that dying with a bomb strapped to their bodies will, in the right circumstances, get them directly into Paradise! Obviously, belief that a 'soul' has a span of about 144 years is pretty innocuous in comparison.
You see? I can't DISprove that suicide bombers are going to Paradise. I can even see why (sorta)they would find it a tempting 'belief system'...but would you be unhappy if I could convince them otherwise with my logic?


Mercy...I have 29 strains of thought and examples and disclaimers and sub-issues, all nagging and wanting time from my cold typing fingers (all both of them) to expand on various themes....but I swore I wouldn't do all 247 paragraphs right now... (I did slip further into it than I intended though... ☺)



sorry Ebbie, kat, Carol C. - as always, I do NOT expect these 'lectures' or whatever they are... to change any minds - but if it helps ANYONE to get some perspective on the very concept of what 'belief' means, it twern't in vain.....

off to bed....where I shoulda been an hour ago.

g'night

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 11:47 PM

No worries, Bill. I am sure Little Hawk will be in soon to tell you more about the way it is.:-)

I do not reject; I go with what I believe is true for me and, no, it does not have to be true for someone else. The Universe is infinite, imo. Oh, boy, I have about 247 paragraphs to write, too, but just not going to get into it...I know what you think of metaphysics, so why do so?

The 144 is NOT carved in stone and no I did not get it from some crackpot book or whatever.

Just sign me airy-faerykat:-)

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 12:28 AM

We were asked some questions, and I answered to the best of my ability from the standpoint of how I understand things. Had I known that the questions were only asked in order to provide someone with an opportunity to lecture me, I wouldn't have bothered. Pearls before something or other.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 12:33 AM

I would just point out that there is also a belief system that some people have, the belief being that they are the only ones who know what's real and what's not, and they have a responsibility to set everyone else straight. That one's called "delusions of grandeur".

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 04:14 AM

When I was very little I knew stuff. Stuff not experienced in my short life. Stuff like minute details of the inside of an abandoned and boarded up house a few blocks away from home.

The wallpaper in the living room and stains on it, the broken out corners and tangible blisters of green flecked linoleum tiles on kitchen floor, the dirty rose coloured upholstered rocking chair that had no arm rests and a yellowed doily on the back, the fraying around the cord to a table lamp. Don't remember the lamp but I remember the table legs. Slender, tapered and black with 3 grooves on the front, I could trace down with my finger tips. Just remember everything from a small child's maybe even a babie's eye view of a house.

I don't remember seeing that house at anytime in this life except when being transported by minibus to kindergarten a few blocks away from home. This vehicle designed in such a way that I could see out of the windows and me having the curious feeling that I knew the neighborhood and the house yet didn't know why I knew them.

Once when mom had to drive me to or from kindergarten, I said I knew that house. She told me the house had been boarded up for years before I was born.

I remember testing empiricism when I was like 3 and 4. I would keep peeking around the door to kitchen to see if it was still there, thinking I could catch it not being there. I remember sitting in a little white leather upholstered chair thinking about my own exisistence, trying to figure out how to prove it and coming to the conclusion that if I can think about this stuff then I must be real. Pretty Cartesian for a 4 year old.

I used to play with stream of consciousness at a very early age too. Though I didn't know what it was. Just following and chasing my thoughts around and backtracking to find the beginning thought. A real highchair philosopher.

I do believe that I have grown duller, stupider as I aged and I have been conscious of this loss since early childhood.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 11:48 AM

I dunno if it will help my 'image' in these matters, but I lay awake last night trying to think how I could have said it all better...and then had dreams that felt like they were attempts to reconcile my need to 'explain' with my concerns about upsetting others.


...and *grin*...Carol...regarding

" Had I known that the questions were only asked in order to provide someone with an opportunity to lecture me, I wouldn't have bothered. Pearls before something or other.

point taken...and it reminds me of a similar one: "Never try to teach one of those "something or others" to sing - it wastes your time and annoys the whatchamacallit."

I need to remember both...let's see if my aging brain can manage it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:01 PM

Alternatively, one could just let everyone have whatever beliefs (or lack of beliefs) that work for them without trying to convince them they shouldn't. I know that some people like to invoke the idea that religious and/or spiritual beliefs can be dangerous. But then so can people who religiously try to stop people from having religious and/or spiritual beliefs, like the Soviets and the government of Communist China. Everything can be taken to extremes. So lack of religious and/or spiritual belief is no less dangerous than having them, and it's really nobody's business whether or not someone else has or doesn't have religious and/or spiritual beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:34 PM

"Alternatively, one could...." ...yes, lots of alternatives] in many directions.

   It's a lot more complicated than just shrugging at the myriad convolutions of beliefs people can invent, but since the discussion has become confrontational rather than just comparing opinions, and my feeble attempts at 'lightness' are not working, I will drop it.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: CarolC
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 03:47 PM

It became confrontational when someone came into the thread and tried to lecture everyone else about how they are wrong. It always happens that way. Sometimes people just like to compare notes on the things they believe, and they would like to be able to do it without being lectured and patronized by people who think they know better than anyone else what is real. It's not anyone's job to make sure that everyone falls into line behind their own prejudices on matters of spirit. Not even those whose prejudice is that people shouldn't hold beliefs on matters of spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Jan 09 - 04:07 PM

Actually, Bill, I thought you went rather lightly this time, though I confess it would be nice to be able to compare, discuss and share without some one coming in to tell us how illogical it all seems, etc.:-) SO, I guess you could say it would be a thread for believers in metaphysics or some such; otherwise I guess it could be open to any comparison, discussion, etc. as has happened in the past. Perhaps we haven't been specific enough for you non-believers!**bg**

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM

After watching Dean grow up for 8 years the concept of old soul is exquisitly tangible to me.

I wrote an abstract of a novel about an old soul who has access to a panopoly of ancient wisdom yet goes on the same journey of discovery that we all attempt. While inately knowing so much, the journey of finding meaning wastes so much time in his redundant quest.
Surprisingly the inate knowing of the young 'old soul' causes more annoyance among other people than joyful understanding.

Particularly poignant is how the old soul came to be while still in the womb...but I won't get into that right now.

Subject: RE: BS: The Child Presages the Man
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 09:24 AM

I am convinced both my grandsons have been here before.

The only 'previous' I can remember - and it's vague - is as a monk of the Celtic Church.