BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:07 PM

anding insult injury a wee bit of snow hits the south of England and the coutry grinds to a halt

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:28 AM

They are pathetic, even more so with their hideous northern accents!

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 09:28 AM

Great news.

The PM has agreed to look at workers' rights which should go someway to helping to prevent these strikes in the future. This should of course have been done before now.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Rasener
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 08:41 AM

Well I don't know if there is a personal vendetta, but please refrain from flaming if thats whats happening. This is about Wildcat Strikes and the discussion should be open and non personal.

Anyway, as Roy Orbison sang "It's Over"

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 06:15 PM

OK Goatfell, that comes under personal vendetta and you need to stop it now.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 04:19 PM

On this thread that's probably what the government would say.........but we know it's a load of rubbish :-)

LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 01:56 PM

toi quote Megan L this is a racist thread if you back the workers

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

Villan,in the past wildcat strikes have[sometimes] been agreed by management and unions,when there has been slight over production,quite sensible really.
The reason,to be in a union , is to get better conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

Well BBC report this

The final number of jobs on offer for British workers is expected to be about 100.

The full details, plus a recommendation from the unions to return to work, would be confirmed at another mass meeting on Thursday morning, he said.

End of quote

So not completely there yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 10:29 AM

A deal has been "agreed" so hopefully the strikes will end.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 09:15 AM

I prefer things to be done the right way too.

The government has chosen to ignore certain issues and, of course, all it takes is a recession for things to come to a head. I do have some sympathy with the strikers; it was probably the only way they could get some immediate action. I find it unforgiveable that some members of the government have tried to make this look as though it is a racist issue - which it is not.

Builder and Engineer online outlines Derek Simpson's plan to deal with the situation.

Derek Simpson, joint leader of Unite has proposed a three point plan for dealing with the current wave of unoffical strike action taking place across construction sites in the UK. He said: "Unite is proposing a three point plan that the UK government should follow to resolve the wave of unoffical unrest gripping the UK. There needs to be a systematic aproach which deals with the immediate problem of the current unoffical strikes and then addresses the root cause of the discontent. "

1. Resolve the immediate problem that exists at Total's Lindsey oil refinery. Reach an agreement which gives fair consideration for UK labour to work on the contract.

2. Carry out an investigation into the practices of contractors and subcontactors in the engineering and construction industry. Follow by action from the government which will insist that companies applying for contracts on public infrastructure projects, sign up to Corporate Social Responsibility agreeements which commit to fair access for UK Labour.

3. Overturn European legal precedents which allow employers to undercut wages and conditions. A European Court of Justice precedent gives employers a license for 'social dumping' and prevents unions form taking action to prevent the erosion of UK workers' pay and condition.

"The government is failing to grasp the fundamental issues, " he added. "The problem is not workers from other European countries working in the UK, nor is it about foreign contractors winning contracts in the UK. The problem is that employers are excluding UK workers from even applying for work on these contracts."

Point 3. (IMO) should have been done well before now.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:35 AM

Oh, and just before you may make comments.

My father was on of the staunchest Trade Unionists going. I worked for many years at probably one of the biggest employers at that time in Birmingham GEC Witton.
I was brought up to believe that the correct way to deal with issues like this was through the correct channels.
Unofficial Strikes are like taking the law into your own hands.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:23 AM

Dick
Becuase they are not official. Why be in a union?
Les

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:09 AM

villan, why are you against wildcat strikes?

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 07:04 AM

The 51% is my calculation from the figures but I'm not sure that is correct. The original offer was 40 skilled workers plus 20 ancillary staff so my percentage may go down depending on the split between skilled workers and ancillary staff.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 06:58 AM

Unite were asking for 50% but the offer was 21% and that was rejected. The GMB union says that an improved offer has been made for 101 British workers out of the 198 construction engineering jobs on the project which is 51% but they are waiting for the offer to be put in writing.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Rasener
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 05:46 AM

Oh no it isn't, at least thats what the BBC are reporting this morning.
Quote
Workers battling against the use of foreign labour at North Lincolnshire's Lindsey Oil Refinery have refused to accept a deal proposed in Acas talks.

The suggested solution came after talks between unions and the refinery owner.

There were reports that about half of the disputed 200 jobs would be offered to British workers, but workers have been told it would be less than 25%.
Unquote

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: GUEST,member
Date: 04 Feb 09 - 03:32 AM

Looks to be sorted out this morning. There will be BRITISH JOBS FOR BRITISH WORKERS.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 05:43 PM

No, I was indeed wrong, m@w, for which apologies. I hadn't realised NALGO ever existed under the name Liz used. Pedant point for Liz: two words wrong - not bad going for the name of your own union!

eanjay, I go with you some of the way. For instance I regard the ECJ directives as objectionable if they are as described in some recent media reports. But I'm not clear that those directives have been invoked in this case. Even if they have been, I wouldn't regard that as justifying wildcat strikes, though I have no problem with peaceful protest nor in extremis with civil disobedience.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 04:07 PM

Mandelson IMO is without morals.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 11:05 AM

I was the Union H&S rep, I think I'd know who for - even if I did misremember one word... I haven't been NALGO since UNISON formed, and that was considerably more than 10 years ago, but I am still a rep....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:10 AM

Peter K (Fionn), I think you are probably right; I'm sure that legal loopholes will show that I am not justified.

This is an interesting article. Some of the arguments that have been put forth, by companies involved, such as the argument that British labour is not as highly skilled and qualified or the implication that foreign health and safety is superior are just rubbish.

Jean

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 08:00 AM

Ah! I see your point now. Still, prior to 1952 it was as Liz said.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:56 AM

?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_of_Local_Government_Officers

How is this not a union?

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:50 AM

VirginiaTams's first post summed up the issue. I will be amazed if eanjay turns out to be justified in his or her belief that Brits were discrimintated against by the LOR subcontractor. But let's wait and see.

To deal with The Villan's question, wildcat strikes are allways potentially disastrous for employees because employers will always profit from division in the ranks. Whether we like it or not, the EU is a single labour market and xenophobic squabbles within that market again will benefit only employers. The NUM became Britain's strongest union through the discipline of its members. Scargill's inciting of illegitimate strikes before and during his national presidency destroyed it.

Pedant point for LtS: there has never been a UK union called the National Association of Local Government Officers!

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 07:27 AM

neither is new/old Labour

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:50 AM

no friend of the working men and women of this country

Exactly, the ECJ already appears to rule in favour of employers all we need is Mandelson jumping on the bandwagon.

Even he was surprised when Brown welcomed him back into his cabinet; hopefully he won't be there for long.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Stu
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:27 AM

Mandolson is the reason I would never vote Labour again. His Lordship is no friend of the working men and women of this country, preferring to hob-nob with the sort of people that have led us into the mess we're in now.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 06:27 AM

I supprt them 100% and anyone doesn't support them is either a Tory or they should be one.

UP THE WORKERS

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 05:05 AM

The following is taken from the mirror.co.uk.

Lord Mandelson provoked fury yesterday after claiming strikers protesting about the use of overseas workers were driven by a hatred of foreigners.

The Business Secretary's remarks fuelled an escalation in the dispute, with thousands more workers walking out at nuclear power stations across the UK.

And enraged Union leaders accused Lord Mandelson of being in denial about what was happening to British workers at the Lindsey oil refinery.

He said Total "strongly" denied British workers were being discriminated against, insisting: "The initial examination suggests the company is right". Then he added: "Let's stop feeding this xenophobia."

If this is what he said then it appears to be irresponsible, unhelpful and for the majority of strikers I would say that it is untrue.

The strikes are not about xenophobia they are about fighting for the right to work in one's own country.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Kampervan
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 07:26 PM

But back to the original question of as to whether the wildcat strike is right or not.

I agree that a lot of damage was done in the mid to late 20th century by some stupid strike tactics, and it is right that there should be some thought given before a workforce walks out and brings an industry or even a country to a standstill.

But, at the end of the day, it is still a person's right to withdraw their labour. If they and their colleagues feel that strongly, and whether their argument is right or wrong,no-one can force them to remain at work if they choose to strike.

K/van

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 06:25 PM

the recession has been brought about by a number of factors,unwise lending by the banks ,greed ,Icesave,etc,but not by wildcat strikes .the way out of this recession is to employ people in repairing and rebuilding infra structure.[not for the time being, in producing commodoties that are not selling]
when those people have money in their pockets[whatever nationality the are originally],they will spend the money in the country they are in,this then kick starts the economy ,and increases the demand for consumer goods.
why have people idle, claiming unemployment money when they can be repairing the roads maintaining flood barriers,repairing sewarage pipes etc,and with the extra money they get,able to spend more.
capitalism relies upon consumer spending,the people[whatever their nationality] have to have money to buy back the goods that are produced.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: GUEST,Member
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

It's saddening and maddening to see the UNITE officials wanting workers kept away from the picket lines - but not surprising given the union's subservience to the Labour Party.

I'm sure that the protest has come from the bottom up; from the members, not from the leadership who are now obliged to respond to their members' anger. But UNITE members need to be asking the question of why their leadership allowed this in the first place. UNITE's funding of Labour makes them complicit in the existence of these treacherous E.U employment laws - it's Labour who put them in place and the government appears fully committed to their continuance.

Capitalism likes cheap labour, Socialism likes multicultarism seems obvious that both parties will back each other up on this one. As for Lib dems, who knows. I suppose it depends on who built the fence they are sitting on.

230,000 brits are supposed to have found work in europe with many of those in middle management whilst over one MILLION + have migrated to the uk and found work, with even more pouring in.....and that's supposed to be fair according to Mandelson and co ?

This goverment cares nothing for it's indigenous work force and even less what it thinks.......may the wild cat strikes grow........may the lights go out......and may this goverment be driven out of power whatever the cost......we owe it to the future of our children if they are to have one at all. Seems to me that Mandy & Broon think we should all act like opportunistic itinerants with no fixed abode. People have families, roots and history. Is it so much to ask that people can settle in the area of their birth?

I remember in the 80's when Tebbitt said "If you want work, get on yer bike". And a lot did. This social upheaval was the real start of a nation that has lost it's spirit and roots and now Liebour want us to go even further afield.

Well why the hell should we - just so you can manipulate us as pawns in a game and cream off the profits with your corporate buddies? Seems to me it is they who should get on their bikes!

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: paula t
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:18 PM

Racist people will always be there - looking to stir up the fears of the most vulnerable people in times like these.They are very clever. They target a minority group in an area which is particularly struggling,then they use half truths or highlight a particular issue - claiming it to be a major reason for the loss of jobs and then watch it spread like wildfire.
All they then need is to fire up the right wing media and Bob's your uncle.
The banks have caused this recession - not a few "foreign"labourers who are exploited horribly by the people who hire them. I believe the unions would do better to try to ensure these workers were treated properly and paid the going rate rather than striking about their being employed.After all , many British people work in European countries because they are well paid. We would be up in arms if they were treated in the same way as the labourers here.

Gilly, you have not replied to my question so I'm not quite sure if you were "Having a dig" at me or had misunderstood my motives . However , I would like to point out that I was using the example of lies being told about the so-called effect of a minority group on the economy of a country,and these lies being used as an excuse for racist attacks. I don't believe either side in Gaza have used economic reasons as an excuse for their behaviour .This is why I didn't give it as an example.It wasn't relevant to the point I was making.There are other excuses being made for the atrocities there - on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 03:11 PM

Les, not having a dig at you at all! It was just an opinion. :-)

But the fact is that these guys are not bringing the country to its knees. As you rightly say, it's already on its knees and the LOR workers are victims of the foul misdeeds of the wankers, oops sorry, bankers who put it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:45 PM

This is taken from the guardian.co.uk

Paul Kenny, general secretary of the GMB union, said Mandelson was "in denial about the nature of the problem" and the Labour party had been aware of the issue for five years.

"The facts are that the manner in which the EU 1996 Posted Workers Directive was applied into UK law in 1999 was botched," he said. "The Labour party recognised this in 2004 and made a manifesto commitment to apply Article 3(8) properly into UK law. That commitment, which was repeated in 2008, has not been honoured."

About 600 mechanical contractors met at the Sellafield site's Yottenfews car park at 7.30am to agree a 24-hour walkout in support of the Lindsey action.

One of the strikers, the GMB convener Willie Doggert, said: "All we want is a level playing field. It's not just about foreign workers. We need jobs to be advertised with transparency so that everybody gets a fair crack of the whip at getting them."

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:32 PM

It isn't the fact that EU citizens might work here, it's the fact that British workers were specifically excluded from working on some jobs, they had no opportunity to apply, no chance of ever getting the job. I'm sure that a lot of British people working in EU countries had to compete with citizens from that country for the job they are doing.

[No mention of Gordon Brown or banks :-) LOL]

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Lib Democrat leader Nick Clegg,"The truth is twice as many British people live and work in the EU than EU citizens work here. Any attempt to ban EU citizens from jobs in Britain would be a massive own goal".

My English born nephew has worked in Germany for the past 20 years along with the rest of his geordie mates he has settled down in Germany.    It reminds me of those London dockers downing tools and marching to Westminister in the 1960s, goaded on by arch racialist Enoch Powell, this protest was against the influx of black migrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: paula t
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:19 PM

What do you mean by that?

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: GUEST,Gilly
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM

Here we go again, World War two recalled, try a quote from Gaza Paula.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: paula t
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 01:12 PM

I find thia all rather scary. It smacks of WW11 and the scapegoating of the Jews for the recession in Germany........................

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 10:22 AM

Just to clrify, incase that was aimed at me :-)

My Quote
This country is already on its knees, and these strikes will only make matters worse.
End of quote


bring somebody/something to their knees
b) to have such a bad effect on an organization, activity etc that it cannot continue [= cripple]:


I was on about Wildcat Strikes not what the banks have done. Thats another matter. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 08:18 AM

Correct, Dave. Those are the pricks who brought the country to its knees, not the Lindsey Oil Refinery workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 05:00 AM

At the moment the banks are on strike - they won't lend money either to people or to each other.

But of course this is never referred to as a strike.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:58 AM

I'll have to check the news for something about UK wildcatters, but perhaps "how it's done in the US" would be of interest:

Bailed-out banks sought foreign workers

Use of lower paid labor criticized by lawmakers, workers' advocates

The Associated Press
updated 1:02 p.m. CT, Sun., Feb. 1, 2009

SANTA CLARA, Calif. - Major U.S. banks sought government permission to bring thousands of foreign workers into the country for high-paying jobs even as the system was melting down last year and Americans were getting laid off, according to an Associated Press review of visa applications.

The dozen banks now receiving the biggest rescue packages, totaling more than $150 billion, requested visas for more than 21,800 foreign workers over the past six years for positions that included senior vice presidents, corporate lawyers, junior investment analysts and human resources specialists. The average annual salary for those jobs was $90,721, nearly twice the median income for all American households.

As the economic collapse worsened last year — with huge numbers of bank employees laid off — the numbers of visas sought by the dozen banks in AP's analysis increased by nearly one-third, from 3,258 in the 2007 budget year to 4,163 in fiscal 2008.

...

[end qoute] (The article also gives some clues as to how the Visa'd workers are cheaper.)

Back to the discussion.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 02 Feb 09 - 04:22 AM

Essex now in Charlotte - I see you have not posted on mudcat before under this ID.

I am curious. Are you now living and working in the US?

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: GUEST,Essex now in Charlotte
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 07:32 PM

I have to say that I am behind all those chaps who came out and think it was a jolly good show. Those workers are angry at the pro-immigration, out-of-touch internationalism of many left-wing union leaders. Now's the time to stand up and defend the rights and livelihoods of British workers.

Good luck I say. Best of British.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 02:35 PM

I think I'm most concerned that the contract was awarded to a US company, that presumably makes a profit by using an Italian sub-contractor. So the money lost to UK workers is finishing up in US hands, and we know how US capital plays trade rules.

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 01:09 PM

Quote from BBC News

The PM is under pressure from the trade unions to close a loophole in EU law which the unions say enables foreign companies to discriminate against British workers.

It follows two rulings by the European Court of Justice (ECJ) over the interpretation of the EU's Posted Workers Directive, which seeks to ensure companies cannot get round domestic labour laws and pay rates by using foreign employees.

The ECJ rulings suggest a company should be free to decide how it is composed, its staffing in other words, and free to provide the services it wishes.

The most significant ruling concerned a Latvian company, Laval, which had a contract to build schools in Sweden. Laval sought to use its own Latvian workforce. Swedish unions protested. Laval went to the ECJ claiming its freedom as a company was being inhibited by the action of the Swedish unions. Its complaint was upheld.

Unions in the UK suggest this ruling has now enabled foreign companies to discriminate against British workers for jobs.

Unquote

Subject: RE: BS: Wildcat/Unofficial Strikes in the UK
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 01 Feb 09 - 12:01 PM

What about the British workers who are working elsewhere in the EU?

The argument is not against foreign workers, it's against EU companies discriminating against British labour.

It appears that the EU "posted workers" directive has given companies outside the UK permission to operate in this country using workers from its country of origin to the exclusion of British workers, as long as it's for a limited time and the company abides by local working conditions. Presumably this is a reciprocal situation but from my knowledge British companies working abroad invariably use local workers alongside British workers. The British always play it fair.

The directive appears to be allowed on the basis that the workforce brought into the UK will only be allowed to operate for a limited period. Is this period set out in the directive and if so what is it or is it negotiated as a part of the terms and conditions of the specific contract agreed for the work?

Whichever applies what happens when that time runs out? It is well known that construction projects are nearly always completed later than intended and are delayed due to various reasons, the weather, poor management, client changes etc. Do the companies immediately return workers home and employ local workers once the original time period expires?

Also is it the case that the company involved secured the contract because it could exclusively use Italian and Portuguese workers who may accept less remuneration for the services that they provide thereby giving the Employer an unfair advantage in pricing for the contract? Is this why there is an EU directive allowing companies to discriminate as to whether or not they use local workers?

Gordon Brown has said that his comments relating to British workers for British jobs was said in the context that British workers needed to be better trained to match the jobs available. We have some of the best trained construction workers, architects and engineers in the world currently sitting at home out of work. They are also probably the best trained in Health and Safety practices whereas this is not always the case in other European countries.

Perhaps it is time to get out of the EU!