BS: Octuplets

Subject: Octuplets
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:54 AM

Forgive me if someone else has started a thread on this and I didn't see it . Is anyone else totally repulsed by the thought that a doctor would implant 8 embryos into the womb of a woman who already has 6 children (all by embryo implanta).Did it ever cross the mind of the 'medical professional' that if you implant 8 eggs you could get 8 babies? not to sound crass but who will pay for an care for these poor babies. I'm all for this kind of thing to help an infertile woman get one child, or even two,,,,,,,,,but 14? Sorry but i think this is gross.

Subject: RE: Octuplets
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 02:55 AM

Oops - sorry, should be BS But I don't know how to move it...

Subject: RE: Octuplets
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:36 AM

They have to place som many fertilised eggs because typically they do not take. It is rare to have more than 2 or 3 egs survive. 8 is a miracle.

Also I would say if you have the capacity to love and care for one child you can care for 8 or 14 or 30 or more. Teachers spend the majority of the day looking after and teaching 25 to 30 children. Nursery workers have how many babies in their charge per day?

I believe I have seen that in cases of multiple births communities rally around to provide babycare, shopping, housecleaning, cooking, laundry duties. I think this type of event brings out the best in family members and neighbhors and friends. The assistance typically lasts until the children are off to nursery. Older siblings will also help and this provides valuable lessons in caring.

I think it is amazing.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: jacqui.c
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:03 AM

Teachers spend the majority of the day looking after and teaching 25 to 30 children. Nursery workers have how many babies in their charge per day?

Fine, but they get to go home at the end of the working day. Even in a childrens home, where it is possible that one might find the same numbers and ages there would likely be more staff and they would work only so many hours a day. This mother has to face up to 24/7 365 days a year with fourteen small children under her care.

Friends of mine had triplets following IVF when all three embryos implanted took. That was hard enough work, even with the help they received through the NHS and both grandmothers doing their bit.

The other problem with multiple births is that, often, the babies can be handicapped in some way as a result of not carrying to full term. That can add extra strain to the mix.

I believe that the other children in the family are still very young, one report said that the oldest was about seven years old. This means that the adults in this family, consisting of the mother and her parents, will be responsible for the caring of fourteen children, none of whom is really old enough to care for themselves in any major way. Then there's the financial aspect. Who is supporting this family? There is no husband here - is the family wealthy or will they need to rely on the local welfare services?

I believe that it is the case, these days, that guidelines suggest that only two embryos are implanted during IVF, because of the problems that have arisen from multiple births. Based on the experience garnered ever since Sarah Brown became the first successful IVF birth, I would think that this is a sensible suggestion.

It's probable that all these children will be loved by their family, but that does not, of itself, overcome the gargantuan problem of such a large family of very young children. It was totally irresponsible, IMHO, for any doctor or parent to even consider the risk of implanting so many embryos at one time.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: open mike
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:16 AM

they (she) are having thier own population explosion...
this is ridiculous...how could someone think they have the
right to crowd the world so??

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6806753&page=1

It was unclear if Nadya Suleman is currently employed and some have questioned her ability to pay for the cost of caring for 14 children. Her mother, Angela Suleman, filed for bankruptcy in March 2008.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WomensHealth/story?id=6774471&page=1

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:44 AM

God I did not know there was no father or that the other children were so young. Also a bit worrying that she appears obsessed (by her own mother's admission) with children. Next time I read before I open my big gob.

Well, still it has happened, what is the point of moaning about it now.

from the ABC news link Open mike provided

The infants' delivery was performed by a team of 46 doctors, nurses and surgical assistants stationed in four delivery rooms at the Bellflower Medical Center

How'd they stretch that woman across 4 delivery rooms?

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: gnu
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 10:54 AM

Now, that's squeezin out a litter!

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:20 AM

I'm waiting for the family to sue the hospital that allowed them to have more children than they can afford.

It should be called: "Family accounting by boot-strap"

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

She has a publicist and they are predicting she could be paid as much as $2 million for her "story." She has already contacted several television companies. Hell of a way to reach gainful "employment."

There is another family who has made money with multiple births, but I don't believe they did it on purpose: Jon and Kate plus 8 with a set of twins and sextuplets.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 11:49 AM

I doubt it was done by a doctor, at least in US. She had worked in a fertility clinic before and who knows how it was done.

Certainly I would go after licenses of any US doctors who did this. I think there should be laws that no more than two could be implanted, regardless of fertility issues. Sometimes people are not going to be able to have children, and it is sad, but there still should be boundaries. I would hope they would decide to adopt if treatments did not work, or afterwards if they did.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM

From what I have read, she showed up at the hospital pregnant. She has yet to say who implanted the embryos. When told of the eight fetuses, she refused to have any removed.

This is going to get a lot uglier before it is over.

No one, no company has stepped up with a house, clothing, vans, diapers, etc. because no one wants to appear supporting this kind of insanity (inanity?).

Who is the father? Fathers?

Today's news says she has applied for some form of Worker's Comp. Her family seems supportive. I hope her parents live a long and healthy life for the babies' sakes.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:37 PM

Applied for worker's comp? That implies she got pregnant as a result of some bizarre on the job accident.

This gets weirder and weirder.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: pdq
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 12:42 PM

With the world population approaching 7 billion and much of our finest farm land going under new houses, I see no reason for more reproduction than "replacement" level.

Also, this lady may have mental health problems. Shouldn't that be a reason for fertility clinics to bar people?

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 01:07 PM

Supposedly she is being inundated with offers.

According to her mother, she has a lot of kids because she was on "only child" and was always mad at her mom for not having more. Good grief! Here's a bit more about the "new" mom:

Two years before her divorce, Suleman earned a degree in child and adolescent development from California State University, Fullerton. As late as last spring she was studying for a master's degree in counseling, college spokeswoman Paula Selleck said.

Suleman was employed by a mental hospital from 1997 through 2008, but her income remains unclear.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM

This has been talk show fodder for over a week on the Sunset Coast. Beyond the initial news, I've pretty much ignored it. She has earned the sobriquet of "OctoMom."

According to what what my wife says she's heard and read about this case:

The mom has been married and divorce; none of her children are from that marriage.

The implantation was done by a doctor unknown. Most doctors who perform this procedure implant only 2 or 3 embryos. Some have called the unknown doc unethical.

The grandmother says she was against her daughter's pregnancies, and plans to leave when mother and babes come home. She (the GM) is currently caring for the other six children of the lady in question.

Mom has been on Workman's Compensation for years, as well collecting food stamps and Aid For Dependent Children.

She has been noted as saying she wants a television show posing as an expert in child-rearing.

A couple of radio hosts have said that the OctoMom should be arrested for child endangerment (too many kids), and the children should be removed from her home and care.

I will gladly pass on any other questions you might have to Mrs. Coast for you edification, and amazement. I almost said 'amusement' but I find nothing funny in this situation.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:52 PM

I just don't understand going for another pregnancy after having 6 children previously and to have 8 embryos implanted is ridiculous and should never have happened. Multiple births pregnancies are hard work and take it's toll on the body and that's before they are born, the hard work continues long after that. It seems (from coverage over here in the UK) that the mother has had babies as part of a money making exercise and that is plain and simply wrong on all levels.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 04:55 PM

Addressed to no one:

Is China the only world power that limits family size?

How do freedom-craving folkies feel about the state governing THAT?

No, let's just be judgmental over what we don't understand and are not involved with as decision-makers-- quickest route to feeling better, I guess, but does anyone REALLY feel better when they do that? And does it actually change anything?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:08 PM

I feel much better after being judgemental..works for me.

I feel just fine about the state governing certain aspects of reproduction-- we are the state and we pay for it. I would feel great with refusing reproductive assistance at the very least to people who are not married, who do not have enough money, who have children with special needs (one is autistic), two are twins age 2, who mooch off their parents, who seem mentally disturbed.

In addition, I wish there were much more social pressure (not abuse, merely pressure) on single women having babies without husbands, thereby depriving a child of a father, of a protector, of a whole side of a family they do not know or repeat social benefits from, of at least double the financial support, of someone who can rescue them in emergencies..think of the fathers in Russia or former USSR country who rushed into a school where their children were held hostage.

Yes, I would like to see the state step in, certainly to yank the license and sue like crazy any licensed doctor who did this (and I doubt it was done by a doctor). I would like to see the same sort of social pressure that makes people feel guilty for owning an SUV having children without marriage and without enough financial support. Of course, I am Catholic, and this gets into religious aspects of birth control etc., so I just don't go there, which is hypocritical but there it is. mg

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

There is nothing inherently wrong with a family having 14 kids. In past generations, especially in rural areas, a dozen was about average - but the births were spread over a fairly long span so that the older kids got to help raise the younger ones and it's no longer considered acceptable to let the kids run loose around the barnyard while daddy (or mommy) plows the back 80. The mother quite obviously has relied on her own mother for the care of the earlier half dozen kids, and granny has said "I'm outta here." (Commendible "tough love," although a little late.)

The larg single tragedy is that the largest of these "babies" was about 3 pounds at delivery, with the smallest barely a pound. It is an almost absolute certainty that every one of these children will suffer - for their entire life - from at least some of the developmental disabilities associated with extreme premature birth. Principal problems (that I know and have seen) are with lung development, immune system, and circulatory defects and there are no known methods of treatment that have high probability of "curing" them. (Half of them will have impaired hearing by age 6, due to recurring "ear infections" attendant to undeveloped immune response?)

Although the publicity surrounding this "birthing" pretty much mandates that the infants will receive the best possible care in the hospital, it would be no surprise if one or more do not survive to "infancy;" and the "loss" of one or more should cause no complaints about the competency of their care, since the infants are at a stage of (un)development that makes their survival questionable beyond what current medical resources can assure.

The really "scary" part of the story is that this woman is studying to be a counselor to help others solve all their problems. (But a very compentent psyciatrist once told me that "only crazy people study psychology.)

John

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM

On the Sunset Coast John, do you have any cites for some of that info? Esp. he work history? According to what I read and posted, she was still working in 2008.

JohninKS, thanks...that's what I was thinking about the babies; born 9 weeks early...that's a lot of safe development time lost for each one of them.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 06:55 PM

Kat - The information came from Mrs. Coast who said she either heard it or read it; I passed it on with that caveat. As I said, I have not paid that much attention to the story after my initial dismay. If you have better info, with a cite, I will pass it on to her.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:03 PM

Well, John, it looks as though the media was confused and now has more info. Apparently she was listed as working, but was unable to work for a good share of that time and was also on Workman's Comp because of back problems during which time she had six kids!

Anyway, you all may read more HERE.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:32 PM

Well, the lady certainly is a piece of work! And I guess Mrs. Coast was reasonably accurate in her reportage to me.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: SINSULL
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:36 PM

She is unemployed. Her mother filed for bankruptcy fairly recently. All fourteen of her children are the result of artificial insemination.

Who paid for this? It is my understanding that this is a very expensive procedure and careful vetting (both emotional and financial) of applicants occurs before it is approved.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:40 PM

I too stand guilty of judging this and feeling ok about it...........my assistant is a diabetic -- really serious -- wears an insulin pump 24/7 and is constantly checking her blood sugars etc. Her husband has been diagnosed with MS -- he'll be ok for a while but it is something they have to live with -- they both work full time, they have one child and they would love more but both their illnesses and their financial state means they have chosen to stop at one (a sweetheart I might say).

I hear Susan's admonition to us above, but how can this be right. There are homeless people that we can't feed, there are old people choosing between drugs and food -- I'm a realtor. My income has cut in half in the past year (not to mention my investments). I'm adjusting my lifestyle to that. 8 horribly underweight babies with all kinds of potential issues and a parent who has simply not got the time for them........WHAT is good about that? What am I missing?

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: MaineDog
Date: 05 Feb 09 - 07:42 PM

We had a similar situation in small town Downeast.
A woman had an obsession for "rescuing" damaged and difficult children by adopting several of them, from different countries, each year. The burden on the town, and the schools, both of which had to pony up for the special services mandated by state law, was horrendous, and all normal citizens were really upset with this. (Don't know the end of the story though)
MD

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 09:13 AM

My understanding is that the artificial insemination was from the womans own eggs, inseminated in vitro from a single male donor.

There are those who, usually for religious reasons, object to in vitro insemination since usually many embryos are produced, and the majority are "culled" as unsuitable/defective. Murder #1?.

The first few inseminations were with one or two embryos, and produced her first children one or two at a time. All her children apparently were from implanting of embryos from the single fertilization, with the remainder being kept "in storage" for possible later use.

There are many who, usually for religious reasons, object to any use of "left over" embryos, as for stem cell research, on the grounds that such use "kills a baby." (Of course an embryo not used dies just as certainly, but that's a separate argument?) Murder #2?

The woman was reaching the age at which further pregnancies would have lesser chance of success, and was facing the "left over embryo" problem - what to do with them.

Perhaps when they asked "how many do you wnat before we toss the left-overs" she just said "all of them" - for reasons that I don't find particularly humane or morally defensible but that might have made sense in what she thinks is a rational(?) mind.

I find it difficult to believe that there was no "co-enabler" in her madness unconventional choices.

John

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 10:10 AM

Its called farrowing, & these days AI is the norm. What's the problem?

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:39 PM

If you go by her comments in THIS ARTICLE she sounds fairly delusional and/or contradictory. ON one hand she is making herself available to all of her children completely yet is going to finish her degree so she may provide for them. There are others things in that article, too. I wish her and her children the best. I hope she gets some help.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:07 PM

"There are those who, usually for religious reasons, object to in vitro insemination since usually many embryos are produced, and the majority are "culled" as unsuitable/defective. Murder #1?."

"There are many who, usually for religious reasons, object to any use of "left over" embryos, as for stem cell research, on the grounds that such use "kills a baby." (Of course an embryo not used dies just as certainly, but that's a separate argument?) Murder #2?"

What has this to do with the octuplets story? As far as what I've read (The LA Times has a big story today) and heard (mostly from my wife), religious belief or scruples had nothing to do with the births. The woman simply wanted to have children.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:26 PM

Save the planet. Mandate no more than two children per mother here and elsewhere. It's too late for us to reproduce compulsively in the name of democracy.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:37 PM

There is plenty of room on the planet for more people, just mal-distribution...not that I would advocate having lots of kids.

Maybe the third child in a family would be the Messiah, or cure alzheimers in the future. Of course, s/he could also be the next Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM

As usual, I disagree with you, Hardly. Wrong again you are. The planet is already overburdened with people. Poor water, not enough food, terrible living conditions, poisoned and disappearing resources. Surely, you are not that blind.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM

Medics in here - the ones who implanted 8 more embryos for a woman with 6 children already - are surely more guilty of professional misconduct than the ones who pumped that other silly young woman up to 38KKK - but at least the others didn't waste scarce resources that many infertile people would have wanted on doing, on average, harm to 14 children.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM

"Poor water, not enough food, terrible living conditions, poisoned and disappearing resources."

These things a matter of misusing some technologies or not replacing resources properly. It is also. in part, not using resources and technologies that are available. Surely even you know that!

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: open mike
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:17 PM

imagine if any of her chilcren--are there 14??!!
will ever be able to go to college, as she has.

even if they live that long

some people start saving for their kid's education
even before birth.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: pdq
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:30 PM

"...some people start saving for their kid's education even before birth."

Yes, responsible people do. The rest dump the burden on society as a whole.

What happened to the concept of a "social contract"? That is, the concept that each citizen is expected to give back to society as much as they take.

Oh, that ain't taught anywhere in our public schools. Perhaps we could fit it in between "Rap appreciation" and "nose ring piercing"?

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:32 PM

FWIW, I don't think either of these "Johns" are John Hardly. Correct?

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:35 PM

We now FINALLY know were to draw the line.

Cheaper by the Dozen is cute, but 14 is too damn much.

Reality TV shows of large families draws large corporate sponsorship and free diapers and formula from corporations like pampers and Neltles but this woman, largely due to ideological political reasons, will get NOTHING.

She stepped over the line.

You can't even tie the tubes of a single mother like this.

She took welfare.

She should go to jail.

Do we all feel better now?

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:17 PM

I knew where to draw some lines a long time ago.

I have not read that she took welfare, but she certainly takes advantage of her parents.

I don't think she should go to jail. I do think what she did was terribly wrong, and she should face public rebukes, if for no other reason than to make the next mentally disturbed woman who gets this idea to think twice, and certainly, in the unlikely chance that a licensed, reputable doctor did this, have him or her not repeat this travesty of technology or whatever.

Some other big families have them one or two at a time. I do not believe in a lot of reproductive technology. I would prefer people took their chances,but that is not going to happen. I do not believe in people having children without husbands or wives. I think they can adopt if they pass a test, which should be applied to anyone thinking of having a baby. Like I said, I am Catholic and there are things I am supposed to believe in and not supposed to believe in, which I have extreme difficulty with, but I will say that some large families can be done very well and produce some very wonderful people.

My main thing against single women having babies on purpose (I am not talking about accidents of passion etc...I think society can absorb a few of those) is that you do not know in advance which children absolutely need fathers, and which do not. You can not predict it. And saying I will be both mother and father (wretch) or I have enough love to make up for a lack of a father..wretch again. You can not make up for the lack of a father if the child truly needs a father..and I would guess around 50% come into that category.

Some children do not need fathers or seem to be OK without them. Some do not need mothers. Some can be left out in the woods and raised by wolves and will do just fine. But you do not know in advance. And if you can only find abusive or irresponsible men to reproduce with, forego it altogether and try to adopt. There is no excuse for going into that situation either. We don't get to have everything we want in any quantity we want. Period.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:19 PM

"Taxpayers may have to cover octuplet mom's costs"         
Feb 11 06:20 PM US/Eastern
By SHAYA TAYEFE MOHAJER
Associated Press Writer

No 'may' about it, guys and girls, she already gets state aid for the first six kids. Kaiser is asking for state reimbursement for the hudreds of thousands of dollars cost they're shelling out. With the California budget debacle, that ain't happening soon. As an unemployed person, she hasn't an income to raise the 14.

But she sounds like a very sweet person on the radio.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:32 PM

Saw the Dateline programme last night. It did not make me change my mind. IMHO this is a very sick lady with no real thought for anything other than satisfying her own desires at the expense of the taxpayer.

She has been living on student loans and still thinks that, with 14 children, at least three of whom have health issues, she will be able to finish her studies and then not only support her family single handed but also pay back the loans. She has been collecting over $400 in food stamps, I think monthly but am not absolutely sure if I have that right, but doesn't see that as taking state aid.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:03 PM

How can you not see food stamps as taking aid? It seems a trifle obvious to me.....I haven't seen her on tv or heard her on the radio and I am aware that this is a judgement comment but I think 14 children by embryo implantation - planned - is just plain wrong.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:18 PM

I wonder how any person (parent or carer) can cope with so many small kids.

I remember when my friends had twin babies & a toddler - only 2 hands, & 3 wanting mother's attention NOW. Fine when father was around, but otherwise difficult when they were too young to accept a reasonable explanation.

2 hands & 14 wanting attention? 8 only capable of crying, 6 others at various ages stating their needs? & all saying NOW

sandra

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 12:05 AM

exactly....

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 10:43 AM

I've noticed over the years that some people go into the fields where they actually need help themselves. It's particularly hard on the families of social workers and psychiatrists when the family practitioner could use counselling themselves. It looks like she is breaking new ground in the child development and welfare category. This woman has a lot of unhealthy issues that clearly weren't resolved by exposure to scholarship about childhood development or mental health counselling.

My son had a follow-up visit with his pediatric surgeon yesterday, and we got onto the subject of surgery in newborns (he does a lot of this--he removed my teen-aged daughter's spleen two years ago, but her surgery was delayed a couple of hours because he had an emergency surgery on a newborn with a heart condition). And we got into the subject of these eight. For someone who sees children in distress on a regular basis, he was very clear that the doctor who implanted all of those eggs should lose his license. "That procedure was done irresponsibly, even from a fertility clinic standpoint. They had no business implanting all of those eggs--a woman of her age who already has six children does not have a fertility problem." Couldn't have said it clearer, and the implication is, I think, that this woman is mentally ill and instead of hoarding cats or dogs is hoarding children.

She, in her madness, has put a huge stress on the local health care providers, on the money they must spend on long-term care for all of these tiny babies, and also, I think, on the family court and legal system. There will be a lot of scrutiny on this bizarre "family."

It was hard enough to deal with one child at a time home as a newborn, the thought that this one woman can raise all of these children by herself in just plain nuts. The child welfare folks need to keep a close eye on her from very early on, and maybe they can avoid a disaster. This is surely a train-wreck trying to happen.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 12:18 PM

We will be hearing more about her as her children grow up with a whole assortment of medical or mental problems. Indeed the doctor responsible for this should lose his or her license. 3 children in this over-populated world is already more than replacement, and no family is "entitled" to more than that. And yes, society may make that decision. Because it affects the whole "village," and not just the parents, or in this case, one single and very confused mother.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: olddude
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 12:38 PM

Heck I look at it this way, as a taxpayer, I would much rather pay for a bunch of kids then a Bank of America CEO's bonus or redecorating his office with a million five of taxpayer dollars or a million dollar vacation junket for the sales staff. At least we get something with kids, one of them could grow up to be a great statesman or find the cure of cancer, another OBama heck we just don't know. At least as a society we are getting something for our dollar unlike the financial system bailout that only lined the pockets of CEO's and executives.

She probably did not make the best choice given her circumstance. But it was her choice and for me, well kids, at least our society will benefit someday

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: Neil D
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:01 PM

I remember a time when Zero Population Growth was gaining wide acceptance as being a good idea. Now, you never even hear it mentioned in the mainstream media. A few years ago there was a similar story to this ,only it was 7 babies born to a couple, and the media coverage was all sweetness and light. The word miracle was even bandied about loosely. The community (somewhere in Kansas or Iowa I think) all rallied, with a new job for the husband, a new house for the family, food, supplies, etc. rolling in.
   I personally, was just as outraged by that story as I am this one, but felt the voice in the wilderness as there was not one other negative feeling about it anywhere. Imagine the carbon fotprint of a family of 10, 11, 12 or more. Now that the media has turned about face on this issue I hope it is not only the fact of her being unmarried that is fueling their outrage, but a recognition of the other issues as well.

Subject: RE: BS:Octuplets
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:40 PM

This current multiple-birth story has been an exception to the general rule of positive press coverage. Until now, whenever a set of five or six or more "tuplets" has arrived to become a naitonal-news event, coporations have fallen all over each other to donate diapers, formula, clothing ~ even houses ~ to the suddenly-expended families.

In almost every one of those earlier episodes, some kind of "artificial" fertility technology has been a factor, but few if any public commentators have dared to criticize the parents. People have taken the view that multiple embryos may indeed have been implanted, or whatever, in the expectation that only one or two would "take," and that the unexpected survival and development of an unusually high number of babies was an accident, even a miracle.

Ms Suleman's case is different only in degree. So many babies, so many kids already, such low income and prospects, such utter cluelessness, and (of course) no father to be seen anywhere or to share responsibility.

It's understandable that this "new mom" had been banking on windfall profits from living out her fantasy and selling her story, based on so many recent precedents. Neither she nor any of us could have foreseen that the details of her particular case, extreme as they are, would so suddenly change the trend of public sympathy ~ even love ~ for strangers with remarkably large numbers of newborns.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: jacqui.c
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 04:59 PM

I wonder how many of those multiple birth families went on to have further children, using IVF? I know that my friends with triplets decided that three was enough, although they lost one to leukemia when she was nine.

I would agree that the surgeon who implanted these embryos should be held to account. Maybe he should have to cover the cost of the medical bills to date.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:34 PM

The story I read said the person(s) who implanted the embryos has not come forward. Is this still the case?

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: jacqui.c
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:05 AM

During the Dateline programme the mother said that she had gone back to the same guy for each implantation. I missed some of the programme but thin that they did have an interview with that surgeon and I thin that he has now been identified.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 08:11 AM

I guess someone didn't like my opinions! Another deletion based on some clonehead's disagreement. Did you see yourself in my post?

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 09:45 AM

She is a very stupid, selfish woman, who will no doubt be sponging off the government.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM

From the LATimes (I don't like what this woman did, but I don't think she deserves death threats!):

By Kimi Yoshino, Jessica Garrison and Alan Zarembo
February 13, 2009

A few months after Dr. Michael Kamrava helped Nadya Suleman become pregnant with octuplets, he transferred at least seven embryos to another patient.

She was in her late 40s and wanted just one baby.

Now she's five months pregnant with quadruplets and hospitalized at Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center, according to several sources familiar with the situation.

The new case could add to concerns about Kamrava's practice and about whether the fertility industry needs more regulation.

In fertility medicine, any pregnancy greater than twins is considered a poor outcome because of the danger it poses to the mother and the babies. Quadruplet births are rare, with an average of 14 sets born in California each year, according to state records.

"Historically, we have been very hesitant to regulate anything close to procreation from parents making judgments about how many children they will have and when," said Kirk O. Hanson, ethics professor and executive director of the Markkula Center for Applied Ethics at Santa Clara University.

"However, that worked under a natural process of fertilization and incubation. There are serious questions about whether it works in an era of scientifically enhanced procreation."

The woman in the latest case arrived recently at Good Samaritan Hospital in Los Angeles for unspecified treatment but was transferred last week to County-USC Medical Center because she lacks insurance. Doctors placed her on bed rest until the birth of the babies, which could be two or three months from now.

The California Medical Board has said it is looking into the octuplets' case to determine whether a doctor may have violated any standards of care.

The American Society for Reproductive Medicine, which has guidelines limiting the number of embryos that can be transferred depending on the woman's age and other circumstances, said it is also examining the doctor's practice. No laws govern this issue.

The guidelines allow for the transfer of more embryos in older women. But in this case, the woman was using embryos made from eggs donated by a woman in her late 20s -- which fertility specialists said increased the possibility of a multiple birth.

"I do think it is concerning, and dangerous, especially to the mother. She is close to 50. When women get to be that age, our fear is the cardiovascular complications, such as stroke or heart attack. That's how serious this is," said Dr. John Jain, a fertility specialist with knowledge of the case.

Reached by telephone, the woman did not confirm that Kamrava is her doctor. However, The Times has verified the information through several independent sources.

She said her doctors urged her not to talk to the media because she is already dealing with a high-risk pregnancy and doesn't need more stress.

"Please respect my privacy," she said, adding that her circumstances are much different from Suleman's.

The woman has three grown children from a previous marriage but wanted another child with her second husband, who is in his early 30s and doesn't have any children, sources said. She works as an apartment manager; her husband is a contractor.

She started fertility treatments seeking one baby, but after becoming pregnant with quadruplets, declined medical advice to reduce the number of fetuses, the sources said.

Kamrava could not be reached for comment and has declined previous interview requests. A woman who answered the phone at his West Coast IVF Clinic said: "If [a] mother wants to bring four kids, so what?"

Doctors at County-USC and Good Samaritan Hospital also declined to comment, citing patient confidentiality.

Suleman said in an interview with NBC that her doctor transferred six embryos. She gave birth Jan. 26, and although the births were initially celebrated as a medical miracle, public opinion quickly turned when it was discovered that Suleman had six other children, was a single mother and was relying on some public assistance, including food stamps and Social Security benefits.

Los Angeles police said Thursday that they are investigating death threats made against Suleman and her publicist.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: PoppaGator
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:28 PM

No else has mention this yet, but I've seen reports on TV that some folks are accusing Ms Suleman of trying to emulate Angelina Jolie, to the point of (allegedely) having plastic surgery ~ a "lip job," at least, if not more.

Also, on TV this morning, I saw for the first time a photo of her showing her HUGE bare belly shortly before giving birth. Pretty unbelievable.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Feb 09 - 04:49 PM

PG, Keith Olbermann noticed the same thing on Countdown the other night.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 12:23 AM

to whomever said s/he hoped the outrage was not because she was not married -- mine certainly was not. Married or single, partnered or not - this woman has too many children,,,,,,,,,period. IMHO nothing more to be said......

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 06:38 PM

Another Octuplet Mom in LA?
Last Edited: Saturday, 14 Feb 2009, 7:29 AM EST
Created On: Saturday, 14 Feb 2009, 12:04 AM EST
* By MIKE BRODY, MyFox National

LOS ANGELES - The doctor who helped Nadya Suleman get pregnant with octuplets has reportedly transferred at least seven embryos to another patient.

According to the Los Angeles Times , a woman in her late 40s went to Dr. Michael Kamrava hoping to become pregnant with one baby.

The Times now says she is 5-months pregnant with quadruplets and hospitalized. The paper adds that the woman has no insurance so she was transferred to a county hospital where she will stay until the births which might not be for two or three months.

The new case has fueled the controversy over the ethical standards of Kamrava's practice and whether the fertility industry needs more regulation, according to the Times.

The American Society for Reproductive Medicine , which has guidelines limiting the number of embryos that can be transferred depending on the woman's age and other circumstances, said it is also examining the doctor's practice. No laws govern this issue.
                            ---------------------

The woman in this story will cost the county over $200K just for her hospital stay BEFORE she even has her children. Who knows what the implantation cost, and the probable hundreds of thousands of dollars for immediate post-natal care.

I know there are many woman who want to have the wonderous experience of child bearing and birth. I sympathize that they cannot always conceive in the usual way, and science has been a boon to them.

But I wonder sometimes if it isn't more about the mother or the doctor rather than about just having a baby. So I have a modest proposal:

1) Any doctor whose implantations result in more than two or three live births, becomes a financial partner in the care of the children.

2) Sperm donors also should be financially responsible for any children produced, just as they would be if they'd impregnated her the old fashioned way.

3) The mother should be required to repay the county/hospital from earnings and endorsements from the notariety of the births, in the same way--only more timely, one hopes--college grads are supposed to pay back student loans

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 06:43 PM

Not excusing the doctor or mothers in these cases, but we also need to see more education AND decent healthcare.

If these women were independently wealthy, there wouldn't be the furore this has caused, at least not as much. It is convenient to use the financial costs to express our outrage over the carelessness of the doctor's actions and the possible mental health of the women involved. In actuality, the costs are a drop in the bucket to what our gov. has paid out to slick CEOs, banks, and spent on killing thousands in Iraq and elsewhere.

Like I said, not excusing any of those involved, just pointing out some comparisons, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:26 PM

Kat--people with money can afford to do lots of things the rest of us can't. Id like to live in a mansion overlooking, say, Malibu rather than where I do in a 1200sqft house. I'd like to spend six months a year at sea on a world cruise, instead of a two week vacation to Branson.

I'd like to have the world's best heart surgeon if I have another heart attack, instead of the schlub my HMO will probably provide. And the very latest medicines, not just effective medicines but the very newest ones. Bill Gates will get it, why shouldn't I? or you?

I'd like to be 6'2" instead of a shrinking 5'9". Maybe the state or county should pay for experimental spinal insertions for me, or thigh extensions. I have rights too!

Why do people have the right to live beyond their means, or do things which consequences of they are going to foist on others...the taxpayer?

The world has gone topsy-turvy in the past forty-five years. Many people don't have a sense of personal responsibilty these days. These woman and this doctor are prime examples of that.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: pdq
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 07:26 PM

" but we also need to see more education AND decent healthcare."

And just where did this lady not get decent health care?

48 medical personel working the incubators, helping deliver babies and whatever was needed isn't enough?

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 09 - 11:57 PM

Oh keep your shirt on, pdq. I didn't say one gd word about her NOT getting decent healthcare. You know just as well as I do that our healthcare system is fucked up. There are TOO many who do not get any kind of care, decent or not. And, too many who are losing their shirts paying for it. I was making a general statement about things that need to be fixed around here and IF it were a wealthy, single woman who had done this, it would not be as much of an issue, IMO.

John:
Why do people have the right to live beyond their means, or do things which consequences of they are going to foist on others...the taxpayer?

You mean like what the shrub did that we are all paying for now? Or, those "fiscally responsible" CEOs who helped others to live beyond their means and have foisted the consequences on all of us?

I never said that. In fact, I said, twice I was not excusing the woman or the doctor. I think the whole thing is outrageous. I was just trying to point out some disparities in our society, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:06 AM

Kat, I'm speaking of the personal level...personal responsibility. We have thrashed political, governmental or other great problems at other threads over the years.

Also, my response in no way was meant to imply that you personally condoned her (their) behavior. I was simply amplifying my argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 01:15 AM

A wealthy single woman would still have put her octuplets in grave danger. She also put her six children at risk because she would be at high risk of death frankly. Presumably she would have good child care for the others, and be able to afford whatever specialized services any special needs children ...and she has one who is autistic, one with ADD and one with speech problems...could require. She would have to be very wealthy to just pay the hospital bill.

She still brought 14 children into the world, who used to be called orphans if the father or mother died..and are fatherless nevertheless, regardless if she was filthy rich or not. She still would be setting a terrible example for people without her resources, and perhaps wtihout the intelligence to work things out in their minds. She would not be let off the hook at all in my book, nor would the doctor. I think there is no doubt that the O. mother is not mentally stable, and that the doctor here is to blame, and the "father" if he is mentally stable...

Subject: RE: BS: Octuplets
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 08:49 PM

Evidently her publicist has decided to walk away -- as a result of - among other things - death threats........