Composing tunes

Subject: Composing tunes
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 05:53 AM

I have composed about 10 or 12 tunes now but I always have to compose them at paticular times. Like after a festival or for a paticular incident, which the titles often echo 'Lost pin' 'Broken plate'

The question to you mudcatters is how do you compose your tunes? Any tips to making composing easier?

Cheers, Sam

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Jun 99 - 09:42 PM

I'm thinking Sam.

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 12:37 AM

Sam, I doubt if this will help you a whole lot but some years ago I wrote this "talking blues" ~ thing about being a songwriter. Maybe you will at least get a chuckle out of it.

SONGWRITER TALKING BLUES

I had an inspiration that I'd like to pass along,
So I sat right down and wrote this song.
It isn't very short and it isn't very long
The words don't rymn and the tune....... it ain't much neither.

I started writing,
Words justa flowing,
Something like the way the toilet does,
When I pull the plunger.

I heard on T V some time ago
That a man should write about what he knows
Where he lives, the things he see's
Experiences he has, You know things like these

Think John Boy said that,
But I'm really not sure,
Anyway it was one of them
Big Tee Vee celebratories.

Well I live up here in the jack pine land
The soil ain't nothing but durty old sand
Look out the window, see nothing but trees
Not many experiences in things like these's.....

So I turned my thought's inward,
Really started grop'en deep
You know something friend......
Weren't a darned thing in there neither.

So If you want to be a songwriter let me tell you what to do
You have to put on your stump jumping shoes
Blindfold your self, go out and walk around in the woods for a while
And before you know it inspiration will swat you right along side the head.

At least it worked for me...
But then I've been having these terrible mi...grain head ache's lately
Guess you might call that the price one has to pay for success.

Cap't Bob ~~~~I know the lines are going to be mixed up.....I need to work on that.

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 02:47 AM

Too short Bob! Watch out or we might lengthen it for you!(Geez, I hope Catspaw doesn't see this)
Rick (sweltering in Toronto)

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Bert
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 08:35 AM

I don't really know, mine usually just arrive along with the lyrics. Perhaps that's why they are so ordinary.

When I really can't think of a tune, I steal one and change it bit by bit until I hope no one recognizes the original.

Bert.

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Jason LaPrade
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 11:09 AM

Hi Sam.

I find it difficult to give tips on composing songs -- with or without lyrics(do you write lyrics?). I have no set way of doing it and every song is a different process. One thing I can say is to do it everyday if possible. For me, the more I write or play, the easier it is to come up with ideas(and the stronger those ideas are). Structure is also important to me. Maybe focus is a better word to use. I find that there is never a shortage of ideas. But I need to stay focused enough to put the ideas together. I need improvement in this ability. I've got enough for 3 or 4 new instrumentals but they are in little pieces at this point. I've also got quite a few lyrical songs on the go. This often means that none actually get done. Focus! Focus! Focus!

Organization helps too. Each new song I start gets a separate folder. Anything related to the song(i.e., notes, newspaper articles, etc) go into the folder.

One final tip -- read. There are a ton of books on songwriting and music theory that can help you. A new song will often develop when I sit down to learn one simple technique or idea. Theory that has recently helped me includes Jazz chords, chord substitution, flamenco techniques, and the list goes on.

Hope this helps. Jason LaPrade

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Jeri
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 11:16 AM

Bert, I do that too, but usually unintentionally. I have an identifiable tune in my head in the beginning of the day, but later on it turns into something entirely different. If I can manage to write it down, I've got a new tune. I did an experiment once to see if I could do it on purpose. I started with Morrison's Jig and it ended up as this:

T:Frosty's Denial
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:140
R:Jig
K:Em
||:EDE B2B| BcA BGD|EDE BAG|FAF DEF|
EDE B2B|BcA BGE|GFG ABc|BAF E2F:|
GBB dBB| eBB dBd| edB cBA| BAG ABd|
dBB gBB| fBB eBB|AFD DEF| GAF E2D:|
GEE BEE| cEE BAG|AFD DEF| GBA GFE|
GEE BEE| cEE BAG|AFD DcB| AFD E2F:||

Sometimes I've written tunes from scratch based on a feeling. I think about what melody would most express that feeling, usually a bar at a time. (aside to SueH - that's how Dragonfly happened) This is much more difficult than the "tune mutation process" since I do it conciously instead of just letting it happen.

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Sam Pirt
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 02:48 PM

I mainly only write tunes as I can't get my head around lyrics, I'm into rhyming to much, so I stich to tunes.

Bye Sam

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 02:50 PM

Thanks Rick. You and/or who ever are welcome to add as many verses as you see fit. Might be interesting.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: The Shambles
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 03:16 PM

I have only recently started to compose tunes, as opposed to songs. When the words for songs come, they usually are accompanied by the tune.

When doing the tunes, I just keep doodling away until I am happy with it. This can be for 2 or 3 hours at a time and by the time I am happy with it, every one else in the house, including the dog and cats, are hiding under beds.

It always amazes me how much the detail of the tune matters to the composer and how little notice anyone else seems to take. Even to the point of not even noticiing if it is a jig or a reel, or whatever?

I seem to find 'hornpipes' quite easy and have no idea why that should be?

I think the best part is coming up with the titles, as you can call it what you want.

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 03:33 PM

HORNPIPES. Hmmmmmm ~~ That reminds me of a Hornpipe that I wrote several years ago for a friend (as if the world needs another hornpipe). I called it Havlena's Hornpipe. He subsequently renamed it the (Humbolt~Clarksburs Hornpipe). A few years later I was playing through a section of a book containing THOUSANDS of Irish songs. I ran across the (Lamplighter's Hornpipe) and by golly it was almost identical to the one I had written. How in the world did that happen???? I have no recollection of having heard that tune before.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 06:57 AM

Cap't Bob.

When I address you as Cap't Bob, I have this mental image of the failed publishing magnate, Robert Maxwell. He who was found floating behind his yacht, after spending all his employees pension fund money. For Cap't Bob was his nickname, please reassure me that he IS gone and that you are not he.

As to what you say about your hornpipe. The thing that amazes me is not that that tunes sometimes sound similar, but that given the limited number of note combinations, that they ever sound different.

I think sounding different is the key. For although written down the tune you found may have looked identical to yours, actually hearing it played it probably would have not sounded identical.

Dependent of factors such as the nature of the lead instrument, who is playing it, the combination of instruments being used, the tempo, the timing, the key, how well or how badly it is played, where emphasis is placed and any number of other reasons, a familiar tune can sound almost unrecognisable.

I will use the following as an example. this is how my thinking goes at a session, on hearing a tune started.

On hearing the A and B parts the first time around: -- I don't know this tune.

On hearing the A and B parts the second time around:It sounds a little bit like *????*.

On hearing the A and B parts the third time around:---It's The Blarney Pilgrim!

It could be the drink though ?

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 11:46 AM

Shambles

Well you can rest assured that I'm not that other Cap't Bob (Robert Maxwell), though at times you can find me floating behind my yacht (a little 22 foot Westerly Nomad) ~~so far I have not been harpooned although when floating I do somewhat resemble a whale. I'm often not only the captain but also the crew, head cleaner, cook, & what ever else it takes to make it go through the water. Some of my friends call me Cap't Row Bare if you find that name easier to deal with.

Actually the hornpipe that I wrote (Havlena's Hornpipe or Humbolt Clarksburs Hornpipe) started out as a song and is thus one of the few hornpipes that has words. I wrote it for a friend of mine who always playes his fiddle muted with usually two or three mutes. The words are as follows:

"There was Dennis Havlena, he was sitting on the ground ~~~~~~He was trying to play his fiddle but it wouldn't make a sound~~~~~~~He was turning all the levers, twisting mutes to make it go~~~~~But Dennis forgot to rosin up his 8 hair bow.

While I was playing penny whistle~~~~standing in the weeds~~~~~with fifteen strumming rythmn guitars, they had to have a lead~~~my breath was running low~~~my fingers would not go~~~~would somebody hury and go find some rosin for Dennis Havlena's bow...." (actually it goes better with music)

I do wish that someone would come up with a list of around 200 tunes that all players of Irish music would be required to learn. That way when we get together we would be assured that we would have at least those tunes in common. We live in a rather remote area (especially when it comes to Irish music) so I always look forward to getting together with other folks.

As to why there are so many tunes I have the following theorys: (a) years ago people lived so far apart that they seldon got together and hence more tunes evolved. (b) they are just fun to write. (c) everybody made their own beer so there was no reason to go to the pub.

Cap't Row Bare

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 12:54 PM

Cap't Bob.

Thanks for that, I am reassured. If I had any doubts, they are now gone as I can't really imagine Robert Maxwell coming up with songs as good as those above. (Maybe 'Walking Away With The Money Talking Blues')?

I have just had another hornpipe roll off the production line and if you are agreeable, I would like to call it Cap't Bob's Hornpipe, in your honour, not his?

I would like to go back to something you said earlier, about whether the world needed another hornpipe. It is something I have touched on here before. It was in conversation with a melody player at a session, when I mentioned that the tune I had just played was an original one. He said words to the effect that, "there are enough good tunes already".

It is strange to hear this, as I have not heard the same said about songs or poems, or anything else?

I have developed this theory that to a melody player an unknown tune is a challenge, a bit like an un-climbed mountain to a climber. Every time you produce a new tune, it's like producing a new mountain to conquer and there are only so many mountains you can climb and only so many tunes you can learn.

We all need to live in houses but some of us like build them too.

Even with your 200 essential Irish tunes (which there are books and there was a thread here on the same subject) there would still be tunes you did not know, or like me, ones you did not recognise until they were over. All part of the fun, I think.

You also have the problem of 200 tunes and at least 300 titles for them.

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: jay420 (inactive)
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 02:37 PM

playing acoustic on the jersey shore originals and a little more hard folk rules

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 09:45 PM

Actually I really do enjoy the great quantity of tunes. It's fun at times just to sit down and play through a section of O'Neill's Music of Ireland (fifteen hundred and fifty melodies) or the book 1,000 more tunes. I guess you would say it's sort of like looking for a perfect gem. A couple of other tune books that I enjoy are: NEW ENGLAND FIDDLER'S REPERTOIRE and THE MASTER COLLECTION OF DANCE MUSIC FOR VIOLIN. All of the tunes are good although some require playing through several times to get the right sound.

The only problem I have is when I get together with others to play it's rather difficult to come up with tunes that everyone knows. Luckily, as time marches on, you get to know people and start picking up some of their songs. One thing nice about playing "Old Timey" music is that a song may last around a half hour and by the time it ends everyone knows the song and you are in sort of a trance.

Over the years I have written several tunes and songs. Basically it seems that I have no real technique. Songs with lyrics are usually inspired by some situation or something that I see or hear. For some unknown reason most of my songs are of the novelty type. Tunes just seem to crop up from nowhere although I usually come up with better tunes when I'm playing the recorder or penny whistle in the woods, sailing, etc. I don't recall every setting down with the soul purpose of writing a song or tune.

Shambles....I would be honored to have you name your hornpipe Cap't Bob's Hornpipe. Better watch out though, I just might come with something like Shambles Strathspey.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From:
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 06:48 PM

k, If any of you ppl out there have the lyrics to "Aloutte", i would like a Copy. It would help alot, Thnx

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 10:13 PM

ALOUETTE

Alouette, gentile Alouette, Alouette, je te plumerai. Je te plumerai la tete, Je te plumerai la tete, Et la tete, et la tete, OH! Alouette, gentile Alouette, Alouette, je te plumerai.

Alouette, gentile Alouette, Alouette, je te plumerai. Je te plumerai le bec, Je te plumerai le bec, Et le bec, et le bec, Et la tete, et la tete, OH! Alouette, gentile Alouette, Alouette, je te plumerai.

Repeat, using: Le nez; Le dos; Les jambes; Les pieds; Les pattes; Le cou.

SO LONG, IT'S BEEN GOOD TO KNOW YOU

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: The Shambles
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 01:51 PM

Cap't Bob

I would have enough trouble just trying to say Shamble's Strathspey, let alone play it!

Subject: RE: Composing tunes
From: Matthew B.
Date: 01 Jul 99 - 05:38 PM

Well, after all of those fine words from my accomplished colleagues, here's something you might even be able to use.

I find that a good melody is harder to create than anything else, but the satisfaction is worth it.

One method I use is I start playing random chord progressions until a melody slips out from between the chords and into my ears. What's really happening is that I'm just sort of combining elements of those chords in a new way (which is why so many songs can be played with the same chord progression).

Arlo Gutherie said at Clearwater this year that the key to songwriting is not so much a matter of coming up with original stuff, as it is stealing the existing stuff and disguising it so well that even you can't recognize it. So try playing the exact chord progressions of a song you really love the sound of (such as Greensleeves or Michele or Drop Kick me Jesus through the Goalposts of life or any other melody that you're really in love with) and see if you can start to "hear" a different melody in those same chords.