BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009-2020

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Mar 09 - 12:01 AM

GO! Joybell! Here's to a good soaking!

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 11:28 PM

Thanks, Janie. It is looking good for us here in the West. Maybe I can start planting for the year. Most of my local plants are hanging on. Time now to "hold the advantage" before the introduced grass revives.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Janie
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:36 PM

Hope it is a good soaker, Joybell.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Mar 09 - 06:09 PM

The last fire (at Wilson's Prom.) has at last been controlled; the rain helped. And now there is the worry that the rain might be too intense on the bare soil.

I can't comment (these days) on what Victorians and other places outside NSW use for hose connections. I know NSW uses Storz fittings (made famous as part of the fuelling lines for V2 rockets during WWII) because they're bisexual/hermaphroditic; either end can connect to any other of the same size. The NSW town brigades carried the biggest size (and a few of the medium size) while the RFS carried the larger of the two medium sizes and a lot of both of the small sizes, and NPWS carried the smaller of the medium sizes and mostly the two small sizes. Our brigade (RFS) made sure we carried interconnectors for everything, as well as the ability to break into polypipe lines of most sizes and still leave them "intact" after we'd gone; I kept banging on about the Tassie experience and was supported by the fact that the mother of one of our members had been a teacher trapped in a refuge on the Tasmanian coast in '67.

If you were there before '97, Bill, you arrived when every Shire council was its own separate Bushfire Service. That changed (as a result of the Coroner's report into the '94 fires) when the Rural Fire Service was formed from all the separate versions and welded into a cooperative entity. It took a few practice runs with seriously major events but I suspect there has been so much interstate cooperation that any truck that goes interstate gets as set of interconnections as they cross the border, so to speak.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:59 PM

It's raining at last. Can't remember the last real rain. Looks like we can relax a bit until next Summer. Just found out that our local grass-fire, on Black Saturday, -- first fire for the day, but quickly put out -- started from a burn a week before. Lucky that the area was checked on that morning and that the wind was mostly burning it back on burnt ground. A slight wind-change and it would have been off and running. Shows how even controlled burns can become untamed.
Cheers, Joy-wet-from-dancing-in-the-rain

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Bill S from Adelaide
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:30 AM

The interconnecting hose issue in Tas was mentioned above. In the huge Hawkesbury fires in the 90's, I was in SA and we sent a convoy of fire appliances to help. They were sent out to fires but found they couldn't connect to the hydrants, each state had a different system, so they wasted a lot of time scouring hardware stores.
I had a fire at work, we already had a hose set up from the hydrant and security sent a nozzle which wouldn't fit - SA nozzle on NSW hose! A small fire became a conflagration
I believe that the situation has been rectified but I can't confirm that. I hope so as we had fire equipment from other states here in Vic
BS from M

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 06:45 AM

Welcome to 97.1 ABC Kinglake Ranges This is a special radio & online station is part of the community's rebuilding and recovery process, broadcasting news and information to an area including Kinglake, Kinglake West and the surrounding towns of Dixon's Creek, Flowerdale and Strathewen.

Signs of life after Kinglake carnage - pic of new growth appearing on some of the trees burnt by the fires.

Helping to save 'Australia's story' - restoring damaged videos

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:58 PM

isn't there a plant or tree in Australia whose seeds only open in the heat of a fire? They require fire to germinate.

Greetings Sinsull,
I don't think there has been specific mention of this in this thread, so here goes.

It's not usually the seeds that open but the fruits, but that's probably just the pedantic botanist in me. Many Oz plants have woody fruits; some insulate the seeds within from short exposure to heat. Some eucalypts have capsules (the technical term for their fruits) that have pedicels (the technical term for the stalks attaching the capsules to the rest of the tree) that burn through in a flame, allowing the capsule to drop onto the ground where, perchance, the fire's heat passes over without the heat penetrating the capsule's insulation. Most eucalypt capsules open as a result of it drying out and this happens after the fire front has gone. Winds may break small branch tips off eucalypts and, if they're carrying fruits at the time, the capsules later dry out and release their seeds.

Some seeds of eucalypts and wattles (Acacias) have tiny little sweet bits on the end so that ants seek them out and carry them underground, where they are better protected from heat. Eucalypt seeds may eventually decompose in the soil's moisture or may germinate after a period but be unable to establish because of the dense shading of fully established vegetation. Most wattle seeds have a seriously protective coat that resists such decomposition for many decades and must be breached before the seeds can germinate. The usual method of breaching is the high temperature of a fire, which is why wattles can be the among first to appear after a fire. Mountain ash seeds might be slower off the mark but will outpace the wattles and quickly become taller than the wattles, gradually inhibiting the species that require full sun and allowing only those species that can tolerate shading to subsequently become established. That's the story behind the Prickly Moses at the Prom.

The eucalypts belong to the Myrtaceae family and others in this family (tea trees, paperbarks and bottlebrushes, eg) all have similar woody capsules that, to some extent, resist heat and release their seeds by drying out.

Probably the most spectacular of the other Oz plants with woody fruits are the Proteaceae family, particularly Banksias, Grevilleas and Hakeas. Their fruits (technically follicles) mostly will resist fire, which then starts a slow process by which the follicle gradually opens, releasing the seeds (two per follicle) onto a cool ash bed that has possibly already had some rain on it. These species specialise in growing on soils with low phosphorus content (too much, as in normal fertiliser) will kill them. Another group (and this is relatively new research) require their fruits to be exposed to wood smoke before their seeds can germinate; there is a chemical in the smoke that dissolves into part of the fruit and triggers germination. This may be widespread among Oz native plants; I only know that it affects Wax flowers (Eriostemon) species in particular.

And no, apart from my thesis I haven't written any books; it was an offputting experience. But getting others enthused about the things that enthuse me has been the story of my life, I suppose, so I've spent a lot of time teaching and this has led to various small bits of writing. And, in the case of this thread, I've come to suspect that concentrating on the material that I have posted has kept me "up" in the face of so much that could lead me "down". So I owe y'all some thanks.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: SINSULL
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 08:41 AM

Sorry if I missed it above but isn't there a plant or tree in Australia whose seeds only open in the heat of a fire? They require fire to germinate. I have seen films of it but can't recall the name.
Mary


Nice that we can be having these discussions rather than trying to find out who is where and still has a house.
Rowan, your knowledge of the area is astounding. Have you written a book? And if that is above and I missed it, I apologize once again.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 03:43 AM

Amen to that.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:37 PM

Even for fast-growing trees seed to forest will be longer than the usual fuel-reduction burning allows.

Sometimes the management version of a fire regime is designed to prevent those trees that grow from seed becoming re-established. Sometimes it happens that vegetation that is regenerating from the seedbank in the soil and a fire burns the saplings before they've had a chance to set seed; the previous seedbank for susceptible species (those that "expect" a fire only rarely) has been exhausted. leaving the way open for others to take over.

This happened at Wilson's Promontory, where I was doing fieldwork for a thesis on plant succession in the 60s. We all knew that a fire had come from the north, across Mt Latrobe and down into Lilly Pilly Gully, in 1951; it was so severe that it had devastated the southernmost Warm Temperate Rainforest (the Lilly Pilly stand) in the world. What interested us was that part of the '51 fire's progress had overlapped with a previous fire's area.

The previous vegetation over this area had been mixed species tall Wet Sclerophyll Forest, dominated by Eucalyptus regnans and E. obliqua (commonly called messmate), with some Cool Temperate Rainforest species such as Nothofagus cunninghamii (Myrtle Beech) included in it. These species need at least 15 years' growth from seed before they can set seed and they were absent from the area where the two fires had overlapped; what had replaced them was Acacia verticillata (Prickly Moses) that was fearsomely thick and awful to try and get through.

So we figured that the previous fire was one of the 1939 fires that had caused the Black Friday devastation. Trouble was, all my research through local papers and other sources indicated that, while there had been fires in South Gippsland during January 1939, everyone was adamant that "the Prom was safe and had not had any fires that year.

I mulled over this conundrum for a while and mentioned it to a family friend (my father's family were all Korumburra people and Reuben had married into the extended family) and he came out with a story that I've told before on Mudcat but can't easily find to link to.

Most Victorians might be aware of the fact that the first six of the 10 Commando units used in WWII were trained at Wilson's Prom. The memorial at Tidal River was erected during my work there and I had "retrieved" a map labelled "Top Secret" and had discovered all sorts of military archaeology in my perambulations. Reuben told me that, after the commandos left, they were replaced by "the 2nd Medium Artillery Battery" (of which he was a member), and stationed at the foot of Mt Bishop; this area is marked by a huge granite slab as visitors arrive by road and is about a mile from the Tidal River beach area.

Their SOPs required them, if smoke was seen, they were to move all the materiel (supplies, ammunition, artillery pieces etc) down to the beach at Tidal River; if flames were seen, everything on the beach was to be bulldozed into the water and retrieved when the fire was out. Reuben said that they had seen smoke over the ranges to their north and were carrying ammunition down the road from Mt Bishop to the beach,

There was an armed guard across the only access to the Prom, at Darby River 20 miles away and the nearest civilians were at Fish Creek, 40 miles north. Carrying all the gear was hot work so they were dressed in nothing but boots and hats. During the operation they were visited by Colonel (later Brigadier General, Sir) Ivan McKay, who later became Governor of Victoria. Officers of that rank don't drive: they are driven. In this case, by a WAAC who, for mile, was privileged to see the pride of Australia's manhood, dressed in nothing but boots and hats, with their arms full of 25 pounder artillery shells.

Reuben was sure that such an event would have been recorded in the Unit Diary but occurred probably in January or February of 1943, explaining the invasion of Prickly Moses. I did try to find the Unit Diary but my headband and beard were rather frowned upon by the military during the late 60s. It was only a couple of years ago that I found out that Reuben's Unit was part of the same regiment I had been in and the period from 1940 to 1944 was the only gap in that Unit's Diaries held by the Australian War Memorial.

The real problem for management of this vegetation was that A. verticillata has a life expectancy of only about 30 years and is a fire promoter, setting a huge seedbank that can last at least a century. To allow reinvasion by the euclaypts from surrounding areas, the wattles would have to be protected from fire for at least 30 years after senescence, death and subsequent decay; it would take that long for the fuel to become wet enough to not sustain a fire except in drought conditions. Fire frequency increases with tourist frequency and Wilson's Prom National Park has always been in the top 3 or 5 National Parks in terms of visitation rates.

And most of the land managers, for whom fire became a preferred tool as a consequence of the late 60s, had little understanding of such details. When I attended the very first Bushfire Ecology Conference, in Adelaide in 1966, Alan MacArthur was using his WA experince and promoting the use of fire to reduce fuel loads and thus fire intensities; Every Forester from the eastern states was adamantly opposed and the Chief of the CFA (Brigadier Hay, as I recall), was vitriolic in his condemnation of such an approach. Tony Mount gave a paper on the fact that the three Tasmanian fire response services each had their own plumbing and none had any interconnectors; he suggested that this would lead to disaster. On 7th February 1967, Tasmania around Hobart was burned to a crisp, killing about 70 and scarring the nation's psyche.

After Rhys Jones published his Firestick Farming paper in 1969, nobody resisted the notion of fuel reduction by burning the vegetation; trouble was, they thought that the broad area burning approach used in WA was the best technique and it's taken quite a while for the pendulum to swing back.

So, yes, science will prevail, but it would be helpful if a bit of history counterbalanced some of the hysteria that gets mixed into the judgement of how the science is applied.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:27 PM

art, I was reading about the California man this morning. A man is in custody facing charges of setting one of the Victorian fires. He was moved to a jail outside the area where he was arrested.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:17 PM

Rowan, Thank you again for sharing your knowledge. I noticed those rows of trees. Hadn't thought about it for 40 years. Seems I noticed those differences before I had any book learning on the subject.
Further to your comments about the longer recovery time in the forests of this area. I think I've heard that Eucalyptus regnans must re-grow from seed? Even for fast-growing trees seed to forest will be longer than the usual fuel-reduction burning allows. Science will prevail, though, won't it Rowan? Surely. Take care.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: artbrooks
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 07:31 AM

FWIW, a man in California has just been convicted of five counts of first degree murder because of series of fires he started in the summer of 2006.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 04:52 AM

Its the survival and regrowth that is so encouraging. And it can be deceptive.

When a fire goes through stringybark forests with an intensity high enough to burn all the leaves and small twigs but not high enough to kill the tissues under the bark of the trunk and major branches, the scene may appear one of black and ashy devastation. A month later if there is any moistrue still stored in the soil or it has rained a bit) the epicormic buds under the bark sprout out like green fur all up the trunk and out along the branches. A year later and you have to know your ecology to be able to even tell there had been a fire, let alone get a handle on its characteristics.

The ash forests (sorry for the apparent pun but the common name for Eucalyptus regnans, the dominant species of such forests, is Mountain Ash, unless you're from Tasmania; there hangs a tale) like those of the areas around Kinglake and Marysville take longer to reach a stage where the innocent are unaware of an area having been fired (because the devastation is more visibly obvious straight after the event) but 30 years later you have to know your ecology even better to tell that it's a vegetation community with another century to pass in recovery mode.

Most Melbournians will have travelled up the Black Spur road from Healesville to Narbethong (and Marysville) so they can get to the ski fields or just drive through "pleasant bush". Many don't notice that the trees they are driving through on that road are not randomly spaced but are in serried and regular rows. [Or, at least they were; I haven't been down there this year.] They were planted after the 1939 fires to prevent catchment erosion and were thus an artificial environment. But precious few realised they were not "natural" and the vegetation community was "not the real thing".

But at least it now seems we're all at last in Recovery Phase.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:53 PM

No no Rowan, I don't mean from you. Sorry it looked like I did. I know where you stand. I was just feeling down. Guess I'll never get "Death of a Wombat" out of my head.
We're taking stock. No fires to deal with but the big dry means we have to re-think our planting plans. I'm looking at what has survived. Amazing -- but I haven't lost many local native trees at all -- even among the ones I planted last Spring. Middle and ground plants are another thing.
We just installed a wonderful waterless toilet. Onward and onward.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 04:44 AM

It's good to be back home, but it was also good to be in the bushfire area & reading all about it in the local Bendigo paper every day. It was a different perspective to reading about it as "news" in a distant place. Having friends & acquaintances in the area certainly made it more personal & less "news" - my friends were only a few km. from the Bendigo fires (but in no danger) & had friends & family in bushfire areas. They had their fire plan & we even listened to fire warnings on an old leather-covered transistor radio! I haven't seen an AWA radio for decades! My uncle used to work for Amalgamated Wireless Australia back in the 50s & 60s.

I arrived Sunday night & left Friday morning & each day the local paper had pages of bushfire coverage. As the week wore on & the weather changed (we had 3mm of rain in one 24 hour period! & my host got very wet dashing to the car while we were visiting an antique centre), warnings became less in the paper & on local radio, tho Bushfire relief fund-raising & people's experiences were constantly mentioned.

I tore out an article about the fires in Walhalla, scene of some of John Warner's songs. Des Micah and Flo Swan at the entrance of Walhalla's gold mine the shelter for the tiny Gippsland town's population during last month's fires.

The burnt house I saw in Bendigo was across a small laneway from a shopping centre of about 6 shops, one of which was closed because of smoke damage. The grassed area & trees around the shops were burnt & I took a pic of the grass & a dead tree, but not the house. The house was a heap of debris around a standing chimney, so was probably one of the older houses which were weatherboard with an external chimney. I didn't ask how many other houses were lost in that area, I'd never make a reporter!

As the big winds were weaker than expected the fires didn't flare up & we managed to travel around, doing our bit for the economy, by hitting as many antique & Op (charity) shops as we could in the time available. We visited the 15 Op shops in the area & the antique shops in several tourist towns (including Daylesford, where Danny & Gael Spooner had been evacuating when I spoke to them before I left Sydney, but I didn't contact them again when I was in the area.) We didn't visit the McKenry's either, tho I'd have loved to have seen their alpacas, nor did we visit other folkies in the area, we kept away from the areas that been burnt or were still in some danger.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 07:55 PM

Apologies, Joy.
The activity of firefighting encourages one to think in terms of fuel because it's that attribute of vegetation that affects wildfire behaviour. And then my ecology background kicks in and I still think of the vegetation before I think of the fauna.
But you're right.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 05 Mar 09 - 01:16 AM

I keep hearing the word "fuel" knowing it's actually "food, shelter, life". Wildlife habitat can't be rebuilt as easily or as quickly as human homes.

"Death of a Wombat" was the reason I started planting native plants and began to understand their relationship to animals and birds and insects. It was over 40 years ago. I was invited to the home of the Elliots at about the time they were setting up their first nursery business. Long before they began writing books about native plants. We sat by an open fire in the dark and listened to this piece. After all these years the memory of it still has such a profound effect on me. I can't hear it again. It isn't in me to cope.
Hugs all 'round, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 11:55 PM

That sounds like it will be a very enjoyable afternoon.

No worries, Rowan and Joy, thanks, though. We live on the Western Slope of Colorado and, far away from any wildfire dangers, barring any neighbours' burning weeds getting out of hand. But, even then, the fire truck is just around the corner, so we're safe. We do have wildfires over here, but not as much concentration of human occupation in the areas where it is likely to happen.

Andrez, so glad to hear they think the worst is over!

Take care, all of you,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 10:41 PM

Thanks Joy, I'm doing well and fine.
I just received this via the ausfolk list; Ozcatters in the area will enjoy it I'm sure. Dave and Di are two of the people whose activities during the Marysville fire were described in the letter I posted and Keith is the instigator of The Fanged Wombat series of poems and other publications.

Dear People

Bushfire Benefit Concert

A superb afternoon of music, song and poetry, including a performance of Ivan Smith's acclaimed international award-winning radio feature
Death of a Wombat
Sunday 22 March at 2pm, 121 Fenton Drive Harcourt North

featuring Dave Alleway and Diane Gaylard, Jim Smith, Andy Rigby & Polly Christie, Keith McKenry

Tickets: $15 (Children free)
Bookings: ph. 03- 5439 6525
All proceeds to the Red Cross Victorian Bushfire Appeal Fund. Please support this undertaking, and pass on this message to your friends.

This delightful house concert will take place on our alpaca farm, on the North Harcourt Plateau, located less than 90 minutes' drive from central Melbourne, and under 30 minutes' drive from Castlemaine, Bengido and Maldon. If you need directions, give us a call.

Cheers
Keith and Jenny McKenry

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 05:19 PM

As to when our dry season is supposed to end -- well actually 13 years ago. It's looking like we can no longer call it a drought but a major change in weather patterns. Here in the Western District of Victoria it's supposed to rain a lot during Autumn, Winter and Spring. Then we're supposed to get occasional down-pours during Summer storms. Now we get dry storms in Summer and no Autumn rains. Spring is getting drier too. When you live outside the city you notice the effect on the plants and frogs, birds and insects. We're getting a bit of drizzle now -- enough for our food plants and maybe enough to save some of last-years revegetation efforts.

Yeasterday I received a form to apply for a grant to help in wildlife care relating to the fires. It's designed to help pay for everything from food etc. right up to lost shelters. I don't need it but it's good to see this help offered.
Yes, Kat stay safe.
Thank you for the hug Rowan. How are you doing? Please have a hug back.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Andrez
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 03:18 PM

With the rains yesterday and maybe more today, the Vic Govt has now declared the bushfire crisis officially over.

Thats not to say that all is now well for those who lost family members or properties and who are living in emergency accommodation etc, etc but at least folks can now get on with doing what they need to do without having too much concern that they are going to need to evacuate yet again or have to defend themselves from more fires.

With any luck there wont be too much bureaucratic wrangling involved in making the recovery process happen.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 01:10 AM

Back again! I was incommunicado for a while so missed the turn of events. Glad you weren't molested by too much trouble Joybell; have a great hug anyway. If you drop into Daylesford, Sandra, you might check on the Spooner. One day I'll get there again myself, as I did a lot of walking around there; courting was a great lure.

Janie;
I watched the video of the ABC show "After the Fire Storm" (did I remember that right?) last night.

I cannot now remember the title of the half hour program the ABC broadcast about the 2003 Canberra fire (and about 6 months after it)so I'm not sure whether it's the one you refer to; the program about the Canberra fire is one I referred to in one of my earlier posts, where I described the public servant who saved his and his neighbours' houses with relatively simple gear but a lot of attitude.

It was interesting and gave some inkling of the impact of the fires on the human population, but basically ignored the wildlife. What is the reputation of the fellow who so vehemently endorses controlled burning?

The mainstream media have usually concentrated on destruction of property and loss of human life; even when describing loss of habitat and vegetation they have habitually used the term "destroyed". Regeneration is almost always a consequence in Oz (even if it takes a century or two to get back to a close resemblance or "original" vegetation; and, in a landscape where fire is almost certain (even a few centuries between events), what validity can be attributed to "original" as a term. "Incinerated" (to me) seems a much more evocatively accurate a term but it might be beyond the journalists' vocabulary.

Wildlife have only relatively recently featured in most people's understanding of 'consequence', and this has been largely due to wildlife rescuers and carers in organisations like WIRES and Wildlife Victoria. At last!

If the video you saw is the one I remember, the fellow who so vehemently endorses controlled burning is probably Phil Cheney. Phil is a seriously experienced researcher into fire behaviour and he is to be ignored at one's peril. I think I'm on safe ground, however, if I suggest that most of his research into fire behaviour in vegetation has been concentrated on those vegetation types where land managers (foresters and National Parks staff, in particular) have fuel management as their major concern and the main methodology requires "Prescription Burning".

[When such burning is done during a wildfire, to establish control lines and reduce the fuel available to the front or flank of a fire, prescription burning is usually termed "Back Burning; when it is done away from the context of a wildfire event it's usually termed "Controlled Burning" but the aim is the same. Most in the media don't understand the distinction and usually describe all burns set deliberately to control vegetation fuel as "Backburns".] End of little rave.

Much of the vegetation in the water catchment areas near Kinglake and Marysville are not susceptible to such management, as I described in another earlier post and this is the nub of the manager's problem. A lot of the material considered by the forthcoming Royal Commission will centre on how such vegetation can be or should be managed while preserving its character.

People's attachment to living in the bush was very clear.   Just about everyone made clear they intend to stay and rebuild.

Well, yes. And the fact that, after the Ash Wednesday fires (1983)and the Sydney/Blue Mountains fires (1994) they mostly rebuilt exact replicas of what had burned down exactly where the originals had burned down says much about how people "learn", even when the research (even by august parts of CSIRO) clearly advises town planners and architects otherwise.

Oz ought to have a bit of an advantage over the US in this regard, if what I observed at the 2003 Wildfire Conference in Sydney is true. San Francisco fires researchers indicated that householders there regarded the land manager of the property over their boundary as having the major duty of care to prevent fire escaping and damaging the householder; this allowed the householder to build a fire-vulnerable structure right to their boundary and assert (and litigate about)"damages" if a wildfire escaped and damaged them.

Oz planning legislation allows municipal councils to "manage" developments in areas vulnerable to flood/storm/fire/tempest/etc. The fact that most elected representatives on such councils are property developers who stand to make a quid out of flogging anything to anyone 'is neither here nor there'. You can bet your life the Royal Commission will be hearing about aspects of this as well.

Stay safe, Kat.
And never try to outrun even the smallest of fires by going upslope; across slope is better, and not even being there is definitely "the go".

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 12:10 AM

We've got a grass fire on the eastern slope of Colorado which has grown to 6,500 acres. And, "the National Weather Service has issued a red flag warning for much of the area, signifying an extreme fire danger with gusty winds and warm temperatures."

It was weirdly warm today over there. We kind of expect it to get warm over here, but not even as high as they got..in the 80s F in some places and very windy and dry. Of course, the west is always dry, but it is too early for fire season!

Still keeping you all in my thoughts. Thanks for all of your sharing throughout.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Mar 09 - 12:00 AM

http://www.4bc.com.au/blogs/michael-smith-blog/gods-revenge/20090211-843r.html

story about pastors using the fires to get some political milage.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 11:33 PM

A great sigh of relief that this bullet seems to have passed you by. Now, for good soakers all 'round.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Janie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:52 PM

And here's hoping you get some rain, too, Joybell. When is your dry season supposed to end?

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Janie
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 09:51 PM

I watched the video of the ABC show "After the Fire Storm" (did I remember that right?) last night.

It was interesting and gave some inkling of the impact of the fires on the human population, but basically ignored the wildlife. What is the reputation of the fellow who so vehemently endorses controlled burning?

People's attachment to living in the bush was very clear.   Just about everyone made clear they intend to stay and rebuild.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 04:20 PM

Thanks, Sandra. Hugs back. Have a lovely time. The fire areas all got good rain last night. All fires should be contained during the next week.
Sadly we go on with the long dry. Hardly any rain at all. But if that meant the rain was saved for the east of the state then that's the urgent need.
Thank you so much everyone. I can't tell you how much I needed to come here. Mudcat has been my refuge and my comfort. The hugs and the kind thoughts are so much appreciated. I passed them on to my daughters too.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: GUEST,sandra in bendigo
Date: 03 Mar 09 - 06:58 AM

today the winds arrived 12 hours late! around 2 instead of early hours of the morning. And we had a bit of rain a few hours later, & even a blackout - just long enought for Wayne to get th kero light lit! Then back came the electicity.

Today we shopped - we hit the op shops & a few craft shops. I also took a lot of photos, & tomorrows we head for the antique shops. Fun!

We also saw a burnt house, one of the 60 that were lost on Black Friday - I didn't linger & gawk, I learnt when young not to gawk at tragedies when we lived on a dangerous corner.

Tomorrow we hope to head out of Bendigo towards an area that has had fires, so might not get there, depending on the conditions. Unfortunately we aren't going west, Joy, maybe next visit?

More hugs to you & your family.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 06:10 PM

We haven't got that rain. Just a bit of a sprinkle. However the first part of the front with the gale-force hot northerlies went by in the night without incident. Now it's calm again. Waiting for the change.
Oops! spoke too soon. The wind has picked up and it's still from the North and it's fierce. The change should be here soon. Maybe it will rain.
My daughter is staying at home. She's thought it out. The children have to stay too -- the school buses have been cancelled. They're keen to resume normal life and if that includes surviving a fire that's a bit less aggressive than Black Saturday's ones -- then they're ready.

Stay safe Sandra. It looks good for travel after tomorrow. Let me know if you are heading West at all. Maybe we could have a picnic together. In the rain!!! That would be something.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Tangledwood
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:34 PM

Take care all of you down south, I'll be thinking of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Andrez
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:55 PM

Curiously I've been looking at the weather radar and there is a huge rain front starting to cross over Melbourne at the moment. It is raining over me right now. Mebbe it will help by dampening things down before the hotter Northerlies come in.

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: GUEST,sandra in bendigo
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 07:23 AM

we've been listening to the radio - damaging winds are expected all over the state, which might make it too dangerous to travel around touristing. there are no fires anywhere near us, nearest are at Daylesford (50-60km away) but the winds can cause damage anywhere - in fire areas & outside.

best wishes to your family, Joy

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 02:01 AM

Good thoughts for all of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 01:07 AM

No we couldn't either until recently, heric. This time, at least, people in the most dangerous areas are ready. Thought we were all ready last time. Tonight many families will again move to safer places. Haven't heard what my daughter's doing but they've had lots of practice after weeks on alert. We're not in forest and we'll be home to tackle a grass fire if necessary. Lack of water will hamper us a bit but we'll survive alright. We've been told to prepare for power failures. Hope the roof stays on. This part of the world used to be such a peaceful place. We'll keep calm. Keep smiling.
Maybe in the dark.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:57 PM

Hot dry gusts up to 93 mph according to the news. I can't even imagine it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 09:01 PM

And it's not just the ongoing fires. It's the new ones. High winds and drought-stressed trees are a bad combination too.
It's very still and sunny. A perfect day if you don't think too much about the dryness all around.
Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 04:28 PM

Everyone's hoping the fires are contained and under control before Tuesday; the forecast for Tuesday looks bad.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 08:55 AM

Hot conditions to bring Tuesday fire danger

I'm off to Bendigo in a few hours (why am I on line & not packing or better still, sleeping?????) & have been looking at forecasts - better pack the brolly & raincoat & a jacket for nights. Mid-late 20's most days, except Tues 36 - it'll be better weather than the fire affected areas

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:48 AM

Victorian fires release huge amount of CO2 "With increasing concerns about rising CO2, rising temperatures and reduced rainfall in many of the forested areas, then we could well see much greater emissions from forest fires," Professor Adams, dean of the Faculty of Agriculture, Food and Natural Resources, Sydney university, said.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Rowan
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:32 PM

3000 firefighters deployed to deal with 1100km of fire front when a cold front (hopefully also a cool change) is coming.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:22 PM

And may they all get back out alive and well.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:19 PM

Crews fight 4 major blazes as temperatures rise In the Yarra Valley, local, national and international firefighting crews from CFA, DSE, Parks Victoria, Melbourne Water, NSW Rural Fire Service, Tasmanian Fire Service, Western Australian DEC and Fire and Emergency Services, NSW National Parks and Wildlife, New Zealand, Canada and the USA have been deployed.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM

Thanks, heric and kat. The Prom is one of those truly magic places that everyone feels.
The barometer is dropping towards "change". Why do they never go so far as to say "rain" even when it does? Hot wind's increasing. Temperature is too. Just been filling bird bowls. Birds are not too stressed yet. I don't even think about how low the water is in the tanks. We've got plenty in the house tank.   
My little heat-stressed Ringtail is asleep in his hanging basket inside a cage. There's a doorway out now and he forages around the place all night. Brings home leaves and flowers to put into his covered basket. He's a free Possum again. Lucky (so many creatures in our care are named that) the Mudlark is due for release, but I'll wait until the weather settles.
Some things are so normal. Just collected a basket of tomatoes and we've got some apples that weren't baked on the tree.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:24 PM

Following along and sending hugs and good thoughts of rain and dying embers turned cold to the touch.

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:45 PM

(an armchair adventure tour of Wilson's Promontory on google images is highly recommended.)

good luck

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: Joybell
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:45 PM

Calm so far. Out here in the West of the state it's still cool and still. Two grass fires burning to the south-east. They shouldn't be a problem.

The Yarra Valley, where my daughter is, is waiting and watching. So far no problem with the fire still burning to the north-east of them. Our main worry is a fire breaking out in a new area.

The fire in the national park of Wilson's Promontory isn't a problem in human terms, but it's a really serious one for wildlife and because of its unique flora. The whole Promontory will probably burn. The fire has jumped to nearby Snake Island. These fires jump water and kilometres of cleared ground making the idea of cleared areas around homes, in bushland, sound a bit simplistic.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Bushfires in Australia - Feb 2009
From: SINSULL
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:28 PM

Friday is the day - good luck!