BS: What's a fair tax rate?

Subject: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 02:54 PM

I get really tired of conservatives whining about taxes. I get the feeling that no matter what they get taxed they are going to consider it too much. It was really frustrating to grow up in Florida and see all of the education bills voted down because the retired people didn't have kids in school any more. Taxes are the price of admission. If you have water to drink, roads to drive on, bridges to cross, kids in the neighborhood going to school then you need to be willing to pay some taxes.

What should a person be willing to fork over in taxes? And are you willing to pay it?

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:04 PM

How about a flat 10%?

If it's good enough for God, it should be good enough for the US.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:06 PM

Because the education is so bad in Florida, my brother and his wife (they are childless by choice) volunteered as mentors to disaffected highschool students for several years, until they were worn down by the futility of it. They said they may have had a lasting impact on one out of dozens of kids they worked with.

The kids know the state does not care.

The really disgusting bit is those elderly voters, are retired transplants from other states. They are not native Floridians or they might have some pride in the state. The entertainment and leisure lobbies (Disney and co inclusing hotels and restaurants) don't help. They want to keep cheap labour. Does not profit them to put money into education.

it all sux

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:29 PM

I couldn't agree more, Wesley.

The way I see it.....it should be one of two ways.

1. Flat Tax

Everyone will be subject to a 17% across the board tax on any and all income, with the first $10,000 - $12,000 being exempted from taxing, providing the person does not make over $100,000/yr. All those making over $100,000 then all income is taxed.

Forms are simplified.
Easy to figure.

No more hand-wringing as the 15th of April gets closer and closer.

2. Consumption Tax

First, abolish the IRS.

Then with them out of the way, the government applies a 20% tax on all goods bought and sold with the only exception being food.
This will put an additional burden on businesses to be the collection agency for the government but on the upside, it will provide more jobs because of businesses being able to re-invest the "once meant for the IRS money" back into their businesses.

There are of course, ups and downs to both plans but you did ask for "fair" and that's about as fair as I can see.

But then my definition of fair: What all sides can agree on.

Your definition may be different.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:36 PM

"First, abolish the IRS."

WHAT ??? And throw all of those people out of work and out in the streets?

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:44 PM

You betcha!

I hear HR Block is hiring this time of year.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 03:58 PM

For a start, something like this:

Income tax. The first 25000-35000 per family tax free. Tithe above that. Minimal opportunities for deductions, which are basically social engineering benifits.

Government spending--follow Dickins' axioms.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:08 PM

This week's issue of Forbes has a columnist suggesting a flat 15% on everything from income, to corporate, to estate. to capital gains.

They note that with such a code even Daschle could have gotten his tax records correct.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 04:18 PM

Education children is the responsibility of the state not the federal government. I think there may be some who confuse the two.

I think a flat tax of 10% of gross income would be reasonable and fair to everyone. I don't think those who earn salaries above $100,000 should be penalized by having to pay more than 10% for being more successful than others.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: kendall
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:35 PM

10% flat on everyone. No deductions, on all income.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:40 PM

I think that's a bit harsh for really low income earners, that's why I would exempt the first 25K or so.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 07:53 PM

If you're into regressive taxes, why not go the whole hog and raise all your money with sales taxes? That would really soak the lower-income groups.

The reasoning behind a graduated income tax (as initiated by that old socialist Teddy Roosevelt) us that the more money you make, the higher percentage of that money that isn't earmarked for food, shelter and healthcare becomes. What's being taxed is income that's available for discretionary spending.

Which, by the way, is no excuse for the complexity and loopholes provided by our present tax laws.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:09 PM

I would be thrilled to pay 20% in exchange for security and good national defense and a well-behaving citizenry. Throw in health care, which I hope comes to pass, and I would be happy at 30%..even 40 or 50% at higher income rates (say $40K for a single person..)

I do not want a consumption tax.

I want more help for more suffering people, but at the same time I want people, like I keep saying, to behave themselves, have responsible reproduction, not use drugs, not join gangs, not be vandals etc. I don't think it is too much to ask. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:30 PM

Maximum wage, say double the average wage. And that'd mean all income or other perks.

Can't see it happening, but I think it'd greatly improve the world.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 08:35 PM

Guest,mg--I think western Europe and Scandinavia will be sending recruiters trying to lure you to their icy climes. They really need willing, high rate taxpayers to gin up their welfare states.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: GUEST,MarkS (on the road)
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:17 PM

A flat rate may sound great, but remember we pay taxes to a number of different authorities, Federal, State, Municipal.
Can anybody figure out how to satisfy all the above in a fair way?

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 11 Feb 09 - 11:42 PM

They wouldn't like me at all. I would insist on people behaving in ways that do not frighten people, do not harm people and do not cost people money, if they are biologically capable of that sort of behavior. And if they weren't they would be in secure places.   They would not like me at all. mg

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 12:47 AM

There are a great many hidden taxes built already into the prices of the goods and services we buy, there's the sales tax, there are municipal taxes, state taxes, and property taxes, and there are various licenses that must be paid too. There are tons of other taxes completely outside of the income tax, which is the one tax that gets all the attention, because it happens at one time in the year, so people notice it. The true taxation level is way higher than people realize. Inflation is also a damaging form of taxation. I bet that the true level of all our taxation, all the above things included, is about 40% of annual income.

What would I be in favor of? I'm with Doug and Bearded Bruce on this one. I think no society should take more than 10% of its people's money each year in taxes, and I mean ALL taxes, not just income tax. Flat rate: 10%

You couldn't do that right now, though, without totally screwing things up in our current social system, because we're so far away from that at present that it isn't possible to make such a drastic change, so when I say it should be a flat 10%, I am thinking in ideal terms only...as a statement of my personal philosophy.

Here's the thing, though...if it weren't for the absolutely insane amounts of money that are spent around the world each year on war and armaments and researching and building new weapons and carving out and defending competing empires...why...I think we could do fine at a 10% flat rate of tax worldwide, AND we could have good public health systems and social services too.

We are slaves to war and to imperial ambitions on the part of the largest military powers.

So it would require the entire human race growing up and ceasing their wars with one another to get us to the point where we could all pay a fair rate of tax (ALL the tax, not just income tax), and a fair rate would be 10 % of a person's annual income.

I don't expect to see it happen any time soon.

Given the present realities, if you expect to continue fighting wars all over the place and you expect to keep building more stuff for future wars...well...you're screwed. Even the high taxes we are presently paying are not enough to keep doing that and to also provide the kind of social services that are truly needed in a healthy modern society.

It can't be done, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: GUEST,jts
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 01:37 AM

The people making more money are proportionally a bigger burden on the state. The only thing we've used our huge military for in the past 50 years is to protect the interests of capitalists, you know, people with lots of capital. They should pay the higher tax rate. Tax should be on an exponential scale based on net worth.

The right tax rate would be high enough that we stop living off the next generation's money.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 07:46 AM

As long as there are politicians making the laws and special interest groups to lobby them, we will have unfair taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 10:45 AM

JTS,

"Tax should be on an exponential scale based on net worth."

I will disagree with this, but acknowledge that it is your opinion.




"The right tax rate would be high enough that we stop living off the next generation's money. "

No, the right amount to have the government spending is as little as needed, so that we stop living off the next generation's money.

Taxes may be a needed evil- but they are still a form of theft.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

if I had the power...


8 % fed
8% state
4% to go exactly where you want it to go without Congress or anyone else diverting it.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM

Susu'sHubby:
1. Flat Tax

Everyone will be subject to a 17% across the board tax on any and all income, with the first $10,000 - $12,000 being exempted from taxing, providing the person does not make over $100,000/yr. All those making over $100,000 then all income is taxed.

Forms are simplified.
Easy to figure.
So someone earning $99,999 gets $84,700 to take home
Someone earning $100,000 gets $83,000 to take home.
Get a $1 pay rise & lose $1,700,

What a system!

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: MMario
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:19 AM

So how about lose a dollar of exemption for every 2 dollars above 88,000 in income? With the 12,000 exemption.

Ideally with a phase-in at the lower level.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:20 AM

"Taxes may be a needed evil- but they are still a form of theft."

I'll disagree with you there Bruce. In my opinion it's the price of admission to live in this country. You have to use the roads, bridges ect that the taxes build. There is no way around that unless you build a cabin in the woods and live as a hermit. And of course you would want to pay your fair share when it comes to keeping the military in good working order. Wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:29 AM

needed I said.

There were toll roads ( as there are now) , fees for using bridges, etc.

Before the Income tax, the government got by on customs duties and alcohol taxes.

And it was a lot smaller. The more money the government has to spend, the more it will expand to areas that it was not in before. And the more it will demand more money.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 11:33 AM

I agree that there is a LOT of waste in government spending - no argument there. How to eliminate it is the tricky part. And getting folks to agree which parts are wasteful.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 12:27 PM

Asking the question is backwards. Ask first what you expect from your government, and then figure out what each person or entity's portion should be. Of course those on the bottom should not be taxed (or should even be given assistance). Also of course, those higher up on the income scale (including, as has been mentioned here before) all forms of income, not limited to paycheck income.

Saul

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:24 PM

All of those advocating a "flat tax" are making the ASSumption that everybody gets all their income from a paycheck.

The tax system is as simple as it needs to be once INCOME is determined. All of the complexity is in figuring out what one's INCOME actually is, and the complexity is most evident only for those people who write the paychecks one way or another.

Life is, unfortunately, quite complex; and handling (meddling with) the lives of others is quite likely to be messy. The tax system is imperfect in some areas, but for most people it already is ridiculously simple.

Assuming it can be "simplified" by making everyone "do as I do" is the hallmark of the BIGOT, the IGNORANT, and the childishly simple-minded.

Choose your own category, or grow up and try to actually understand the tax code for those who are in a little different circumstances than you yourself.

John

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: pdq
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 06:39 PM

I have suggested this before, but you don't suppose that our wonderful public education system could teach kids how fill out the Fedral tax forms?

Perhaps they could do that in conjunction with a course in balancing a checkbook?

Perhaps the teachers could give a whole course in such practical matters, including living within a planned budget?

No, that's too logical. Might lead the little darlings toward being happy folks and responsible citizens, and they will not need the Nanny State anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: What's a fair tax rate?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Feb 09 - 07:05 PM

That "Nanny State" is needed to keep rampant greed & cheating in check. Deregulation and complex tax rules allowed those who could afford clever lawyers to beat the system.