BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire

Subject: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 04:39 PM

This is so disturbing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7891410.stm

Here in the Uk, we all sit back and watch what is going on, as though it may never happen over here.

Some people may think it is nothing to worry about, but the way they operate through the back door is very disturbing.

Lets face it we have failed miserably trying to wipe out the Ayatolla and the Taleban both in the UK and USA.

Sharia law exist already in the UK, which deeply disturbs me. I don't agree with it and we have our own laws and we should stick to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 05:01 PM

If you saw the way we operate through the back door in their countries and their societies...and you were one of them...you'd probably find it even more disturbing.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: GUEST,sib
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 06:35 PM

So LH, you're pefectly happy that all the girl's schools in that region are being closed down.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:02 PM

I seriously doubt if anyone here is cheering for the Taleban in the Swat Valley or the rest of Pakistan. But it might be useful to know what motivates their members and why they are evidently so successful.

Or not! Maybe it's better to throw some more stones.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:17 PM

I'm perfectly happy that I like myself and that today is a reasonably okay day. I haven't read the article in your link as yet, so I have no basis for reacting to it one way or another at this point.

My point, though, was that everyone has problems now and then because of some other people who think differently. You do. The Afghans and Iraqis do too. Their problems are considerably worse than yours are at this time.

I'm not particularly happy about either your problems or theirs, though. I'd rather see no one having a problem at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 10:48 PM

Okay, I've read your article. It sounds like a horrible mess. My family has known people from Pakistan and in Pakistan since the 1970s. Anyone we know there now is pretty desperate to get out, because the present conditions are very bad and it looks likely to only get worse. Things could hardly be more different than they were a few decades ago. The entire area has been grossly destabilized by the Aghan War and Pakistan has suffered terribly because of it.

I see nothing in it that would make me happy, needless to say, and I misconstrued your original intent in linking to the article.

I don't think there is any realistic chance whatsoever for the West to secure a final victory in Afghanistan or to wipe out the Taliban or Al Queda. The West should evacuate their troops from that region, just as the Soviets did before them. The West should not be building military bases in Middle Eastern countries or fighting wars on their territory. They should leave those people alone to sort out their own affairs, and leave them alone to market their oil as they choose to, and then there'd be no further reason for Al Queda to attack the West. They are doing it because of our foreign policy, not because we have "democracy" or "liberty". The Afghans have been fighting tribal wars amongst themselves and wars of unremitting resistance to any foreign presence since time immemorial and they always outlast the foreigners. The British discovered that in the 1800s. The Soviets discovered it in the 1980s. America and its present coalition have yet to discover it. That is a war that cannot be won, in my opinion, and that should never have been fought.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Feb 09 - 11:16 PM

Western policies, esp. those of the U. S., keep the Taleban strong, adding recruits from their Pashtun tribes in the Northern provinces of Pakistan and from Afganistan.
The U. S. and allies are trying to prop up a minority regime in Kabul, and they will fail. The Taleban, and the people of the region, are completely misunderstood in the West.
The Taleban will advance, retreat, reform and re-advance as necessary in support of their views and with the backing of their Pashtun people.

In the news today, announcements from Pakistan indicate that sharia law will be permitted to the Pashtun in the northern provinces. A form of power-sharing in Pakistan may be possible, and offers some hope of truce. The provinces should be left as independent entities, but pressures from Scind and other groups in Pakistan push the government into an antagonistic stance.

We find the Pashtun culture repressive, but the Pashtun majority is still rooted in their culture handed down from biblical times. Only gradual change over 2-3 more generations will bring them more in line with our democratic, Western, liberal societal views.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:23 AM

Excellent posts and I am very pleased that it is being discussed in a sensible way without flaming.

I personally think that we should pull out and get our own house in order.

I wonder how much money has been spent/squadered on the wars in Iraq and Afganistan and how many innocent people have been slaughtered.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 03:56 AM

I m not sure that removing the western military presence from say Iraq and Afghanistan, or even persuading the Israelis to top the killing in Gaza would result in the evential somnolescence of the Taliban and Al-Quaeda: surely they object not only to the western military invasions but also to the western cultural and economic invasions (Coca-cola and MacDonalds and rock music, dancing and bikinis - oh, and internet porn) that they see as immoral and tending to undermine their religion(s). Are they not similar to the Western crusaders in the period say 1,000 AD to 1,300 AD, running a military invasion for religious reasons?

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:38 AM

I take your point Richard, but military presence IMHO is only fuelling the problem.

How do we stop it then. Certainly my concern is how we in Britain seem to let these sort of people breed in our country and do very little about it.

Didn't the US mention the other day that Britain is harbouring many of the people who are likely to committ further atrocities in the name of the Taliban and Al-Quaeda.

It wouldn't take a lot to imagine Britain going the same direction as Pakistan. Stealth Mode springs to mind.

We sit on our arses just watching it happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 09:37 AM

Militant Islam has as its goal an end to democracy, and a global califate.
Wilder was not allowed to enter Britain because he argued just that.
Ten years ago that would not have happened, and Salman Rushdie was allowed to publish.
Would he be today?
I do not know how we should respond, but the militants are inspired by each new concession and hail it as a victory, and a sign of our weakness.
The fighters in Swat will not be laying down their arms. They will continue the fight elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Arnie
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:04 PM

Unfortunately we are locked in an unwinnable war in Afghanistan but one that we dare not abandon. The inevitable consequence of pulling out would be a Taleban takeover. The Taleban would doubtless invite Al Qaeda to use Afghanistan as a training base for jihadists before they are sent to the West to wreak havoc in our countries. I don't know what the answer is but I suspect that 'cut and run' is no longer an option.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: pdq
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:09 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: pdq
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:16 PM

" The Taleban would doubtless invite Al Qaeda to use Afghanistan as a training base for jihadists before they are sent to the West to wreak havoc in our countries."

Er, isn't that what they were doing before the NATO coalition went in to stop them?

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM

They are not invading anyone. They are being invaded by us. Those are their countries, and our troops are over there invading them.

As for some statement by some few fanatics that "Militant Islam has as its goal an end to democracy, and a global califate"....well, I don't doubt that some lunatic has said that at some point and even believes it, but it's utterly laughable in its unreality, it is completely unachievable, and you will not find very many young Muslims out there who will waste their lives in an attempt to achieve what is an utter fantasy of such an unrealistic sort that it's just completely absurd.

Now, go and find a similarly ridiculous statement by some lunatic Christian evangelist about the End of Days and the Rapture and the destruction of all the non-Christians, and see if you can convince all the Muslims that we people in the West all believe that and are about to act on it and invade and destroy them all. It's on about the same level...sheer fantasy.

It's not even worth wasting the time to talk about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM

I doubt that the Taliban or the government of Afghanistan back in 2001 had any idea of the 911 plot or anything to do with it, pdq.   They had no reason to want such a thing to happen, and the very strongest reasons not to want it to happen, as their concerns at the time were internal security, not the desire to goad the Superpower into invading them.

If the 911 plot was indeed organized by an Al Queda cell located in Afghanistan (and I'm not convinced it was) I think that it occurred completely without the knowledge or awareness of the Afghan government. I think it was done in complete secrecy, and that no one was aware of it except those who planned it and carried it out.

911 was not an attack on the USA by any nation or any government. It was an attack by a group of conspirators who had no army, no government, and who represented no one but themselves.

It was a criminal act, not an act of war. Criminal acts should be responed to on the basis of what they are. The appropriate response to a criminal act is to find and prosecute the people responsible for it, not to invade and smash up an entire country that did not plan the act and was not responsible for it.

If a secret group of Christian fundamentalists hiding out in Wyoming planned a terrorist attack on China...or Russia...and carried it out by hijacking some Chinese or Russian airliners and flying them into some big buildings in Moscow or Beijing, would that justify China or Russia attacking the entire nation of the USA, invading the USA, and taking it over?

No! It wouldn't. The proper response would be a criminal investigation to capture the conspirators. It would be insane to respond to such an attach with a war between nations. The American response to 911 was similarly insane...only on a bit smaller scale, fortunately. I doubt that the smallness of that scale was evident, however, to ordinary Afghans or ordinary Iraqis caught in the fighting...they have become the main victims of the 911 criminal act of terrorism. Their dead number in the hundreds of thousands, and they did not plan or carry out the 911 attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 12:36 PM

Equation of Taliban and their aims with those of Al Qaeda is completely wrong, a bad mistake. The Taliban are fighting for their beliefs, which are the beliefs of the Pashtun people in their central region.

Leave them alone and let them evolve at their own pace. Change will come, but not by ramming it down their throats; resentment, defiance and bloody resistance results.

Pakistan's leaders seem to be taking baby steps towards accomodation.
The West must leave the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:01 PM

That's the way I see it, Q.

Al Queda is, I think, largely (though not entirely) mythical. Not that it doesn't exist at all. It does exist to some extent, as scattered groups of conspirators. But it was mostly conjured up by planners in the USA and Britain and used in a gigantic PR exercise to provoke wars in what is a vital strategic region. Why? Because of the oil that is there. We are reaching...or have reached...peak oil. We have passed the point where the world's oil production peaks and we're on the downcurve. Oil is going to become scarcer, harder to find, much more expensive to produce. This is going to put the squeeze on our entire industrial civilization and create a world crisis that will only get worse, and it will probably get worse rapidly.

The USA and the UK have had plans in place for a long time to secure control of as much of the world's remaining oil reserves as they possibly can, and to do it quickly...if necessary, to do it violently.

Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran are absolutely crucial areas in those plans, and that is the real reason why events were put into motion such as 911 and why wars have been fought in Afghanistan and Iraq. It's the real reason why a completely unnecessary cultural conflict has been provoked between the Muslim world and the West.

Afghanistan doesn't have oil itself, but it's positioned between regions that do, and it's meant to serve as a route to transport the oil from some former Soviet republics down to the Indian ocean. Iraq and Iran do have oil, lots of it, therefore the intention has been to create compliant regimes in Iraq and Iran which will cooperate fully with the UK and America as regards the oil. That required an invasion of Iraq. It will require an invasion of Iran as well.

And that is the most dangerous move of all in this Great Game.

Al Queda is just an excuse, a handy one, a provocation. If Al Queda ceased to exist, a new Al Queda would have to be invented, because the UK and America need them as the official boogeyman to scare their public into supporting wars. They need Ahmadinejad for the same reason. If he goes, they'll have to find another "bad guy" in Iran to take his place.

This is a very big game. It's about survival. That's why the people playing it are willing to do absolutely anything, no matter how awful it is, to advance their agenda. They probably feel that they have no choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:15 PM

LH:

I disagree pretty much fully with your previous ms, I think you are confusing motives and actions. It's natural to be highly motivated to secure stable energy supplies. It would be horrific if the USA and UK were really doing what you allege. For one thing, it's very cynical, for another thing, they'd be doing such an awful hack of it. the US hasn't even secured payment from Iraq, via oil or any other means for the incredible expenditures of the Iraq war. Afghanistan and Pakistan are not ready sources of oil, and your argument of their proximity to oil doesn't really wash, in my opinion, the depth of our involvement.

Unless you are alleging that Usama Bin Laden and his Al Qaeda organization are CIA/MI6 constructs, we have Usama on numerous recordings taking full credit for 9/11.

Also, I am cynic enough to believe that if energy and oil were our main motivations, they'd throw over Israel in less than a heartbeat.

Having said that, the historical record shows plenty of assertive action on the part of both the USA and the UK to safeguard, promote their economic/ energy interests, one thing I think is an excellent example of this was overthrowing the legitimate elected government of Iran in the 50's. I was glad to read that we (the US) actually apologized for it.

Anyhow, I'm interested in the argument for Sharia law in the UK. Is it worth starting a new thread over it?

Regards,

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:17 PM

"Al Queda" means "the database". The name arose directly from the huge computerized database by which the CIA kept track of the many Muslim fanatics they recruited as Mujahedeen to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 80s. Those Muslims became the Taliban after the Soviets left, and they also served as the founding fathers of what has become known as Al Queda. Afghanistan in the 80s was one of the earlier battlegrounds in this Great Game. The intention was to drive the Soviets out of that region, hopefully bankrupt them, and eventually cause the breakup of the Soviet empire. That plan succeeded. The breakup of the Soviet empire has allowed western corporate oil interests to get access to much of the oil in the Caspian region. The pipelines to move that oil are being built through Afghanistan.

Any loss of life, foreign or domestic, is considered acceptable in this game...if it will secure control of most of the world's remaining oil for the West.

If they can get you to hate and fear the Muslims...if they can get the Muslims to hate and fear you...that only helps advance the plan.

They seem to be doing fairly well with it so far, although the part about invading Iran is problematical, because it might just prove to be too big a bite to swallow.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: GUEST,sib
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:18 PM

The left used to be internationalist, why don't they care about other people anymore.

Watch and do nothing as teachers are beheaded for teaching girls. Bomb the schools, oh it's ok they'll sort themselves out eventually.

It's their culture and all cultures are equal are they not?

Shame on you, you're prepared for them to suffer because the west is the big evil.

You pretend to care, don't make me laugh. Lot's of words Little Hawk, I'm sure the kids over there might wish to challenge you but they'll never get a chance will they.


It's parochial it's racist, it's sexist.

It's disgusting

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM

>>Anyhow, I'm interested in the argument for Sharia law in the UK. Is it worth starting a new thread over it?

<<

Robomatic. Yes I think thats a good idea.

Why don't you start it. Hopefully people will not flame.

Guest sib. Please try to debate without trying to flame.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:36 PM

I don't actually think I can do anything about it. What would you have me do? It isn't that I "don't care". I care as much about things that happen as any other person does, but I cannot do anything about the pirates in Somalian waters or the Taliban fanatics in Swat. Oh, I can get upset about such things, yes...and I do...but what exactly do you want me to do about it?

You know, the Viet Cong and NVA sometimes did terrible things to civilians in Vietnam. The USA and the ARVN also sometime did terrible things to civilians in Vietnam. In either case...very upsetting.

In a political sense, I had to come down against that American war. I do not feel it was justified, and I am glad they lost it and had to leave that country. That doesn't change the fact that BOTH sides committed terrible acts.

Both sides have caused innocents to die in the present wars too. I am simply saying that those wars have been caused by the West's need to control the oil. That is the primary cause of what is happening. What the Taliban is doing to those schools? That's one symptom of a much larger illness. Of course it's awful. So what do you want me to do, scream and rave about how awful it is? Will you then feel that I "care"?

You have no idea what I really care or don't care about, you're just bugged that I don't choose to rave on about the specific things that push your particular buttons, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:38 PM

I thought Guests were not allowed to post in BS?

Can we please debate this without starting a flaming war (pun not intended). Otherwise it will finish up with the thread being closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: GUEST,sib
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:44 PM

I don't believe I'm flaming, just telling it how it is.

LH, you've made thousands of posts, i think it's possible for someone to get an idea about what you care about - this isn't flaming just stating a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: pdq
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM

GUEST,sib: you are required to use a consistent name, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: GUEST,Sib
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:06 PM

Thanks.

Suggestion: make the "preview" button large and the submit small, saves a lot of mistakes

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:08 PM

Okay, sib, you are welcome to your opinion. For all I know, you could be right. (shrug)

There are some things I care a great deal about. There are others I tend to think about or focus on a lot less. Everyone's like that.

I don't really have any way to determine where I stand on the "caring" scale, but I'll say this...I've seen people who care more than I do, and I've seen people who care less than I do. I'm probably somewhere in the middle range. I can't care about everything that's going on, because I simply don't have the time, the energy, or the personal resources to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: GUEST,sib
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 02:10 PM

Fair enough on that point LH

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:11 PM

Hello, "the Villan"?

I think I really should apologize for my first 2 posts on this thread. I went off half-cocked, didn't pay any real attention to what you were talking about, and I misunderstood your point entirely.

My mistake. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

Not a problem Little Hawk

We all have a viewpoint. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 05:55 PM

Q's assumption that the Taleban speak for all Pasthun in Afghanistan or in the NWFTA of Pakistan is, I believe, a false assumption.

The people who can bring peace, stability and prosperity to the area will get the backing of the people of those areas.

The fact that there are foreign troops in Afghanistan does not act as a "Recruiting Sergeant" for the Taleban - their recruiting is much more direct. They enter a village round up the men and say fight for us or die - that's one of the reasons they have not been too sucessful when it comes to direct confrontation and why they have gone back to placing bombs, using car bombs and suicide bombers.

They now can only recruit heavy weapons teams in Pakistan, most are ex-Pakistan Army and are are very good, but like the Highlanders of old they tend to duck back o'er the border with the onset of winter - makes it very difficult for the Taleban to sustain any real effort - and each time, if they make the effort, the return trip gets more and more dangerous. But they're getting hit on the "safe" side of the border now, with greater frequency.

The other statistic that never ever seems to come up relates to "civilian" casualties in Afghanistan - 80% of those killed are killed by the Taleban.

The Taleban have announced a cease-fire for one reason and one reason only - They need time to regroup and rearm. pakistan has I believe at last woken up to the danger lurking within its borders. The Government of Pakistan and it's armed forces are going to have to deal with this problem because it is not going to go away.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:18 PM

Very informative Teribus

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: pdq
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:44 PM

An approximate distribution of ethnic groups in Afghanistan
(based on the CIA World Factbook) is as follows:

*        Pashtun: 42%
*        Tajik: 27%
*        Hazara: 9%
*        Uzbek: 9%
*        Aimak: 4%
*        Turkmen: 3%
*        Baloch: 2%
*        Other: 4%

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:50 PM

Are they not similar to the Western crusaders in the period say 1,000 AD to 1,300 AD, running a military invasion for religious reasons?

What military invasion? The only invaders around are Westerners (and also perhaps the Pakistan government). When it comes to a historical parallel, the more relevant one for the Taliban is surely with the extreme Reformers in the 16th century. That wasn't a nice time or place to live in either.
...............................................
"The people who can bring peace, stability and prosperity to the area will get the backing of the people of those areas."

Rather the people who are perceived by the locals as being able to do that can expect to get such support. However it seems all too likely the perception of very may will be that the people most likely to achieve that are "the Taliban". And this ceasefire in Swat is the kind of thing that will strengthen that perception. It may turn out to be disastrously wrong, but that doesn't change it at this stage.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Feb 09 - 06:52 PM

Making the whole situation more interesting and much more desperate is:

1) The varying popular support for the Taleban depending on various fears that Islam/ Pakistan/ way of life is being threatened by outside interests (hearts & minds).

2) Penetration of Pakistan military and secret service by those sympathetic to Taleban.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:32 AM

"Rather the people who are perceived by the locals as being able to do that can expect to get such support."

I don't think so Kevin not after decades of nothing but war and terror. The ISAF and US Forces enter an area and things get better, if and when the Taleban move back in things get worse, people get killed in bizarre fashion to "teach the others a lesson" then the Taleban get driven out and again things immediately improve. The five additional brigades plus the increasing strength of the Afghan Army mean that the occasions where ISAF and US Forces enter an area then withdraw will get less and less.

"However it seems all too likely the perception of very may will be that the people most likely to achieve that are "the Taliban". And this ceasefire in Swat is the kind of thing that will strengthen that perception. It may turn out to be disastrously wrong, but that doesn't change it at this stage."

The people know full well after the best part of six years suffering under the Taleban what their rule will mean - Fear and abject terror, particularly if you are a woman. Those in Swat who could flee have fled the area, the public executions and punishments are now the main "entertainment".

The Taleban in Swat need the cease-fire to regroup, reorganise and rearm. Three Predator Strikes recently two in Pakistan and one in western Afghanistan. In Pakistan 36 Taleban and Al-Qaeda militants killed and in Afghanistan 12 Taleban killed - Who do you think is providing the target information Kevin?? Oh by the bye no claims at all about those killed being "civilians" in one of the strikes in Pakistan 25 killed were all "foreign fighters" Uzbeks and Chechens.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 01:31 PM

I think the Russians made similar claims about how successful they were being in Afghanistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 03:05 PM

Those interested in the region should read the articles in aljazeera.net.
The article posted feb. 17, 21:00 Mecca time, 18:00 GMT, "Pakistan army 'holds fire' in Swat,' has a better account of how sharia law will be applied.
Al Jazeera, despite comments from some western reporters, is well-balanced in its reports, albeit from a Middle Eastern point of view.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/02/20092177166785608.html

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:48 PM

One big difference between their little trip to Afghanistan and ours Kevin is that they gate crashed we were invited in by the Afghan Government in exile and the United Nations.

Another big difference Kevin is that the whole country was raised against the Russians and the puppet Government that they forced upon the people, they fought the Mujahadeen. Today ISAF and US Enduring Freedom Troops are working in conjunction with an Afghan Army that is improving in capability and increasing in size by the day. The effort in Afghanistan is international and by and large the people appreciate it. ISAF, US Troops and the Afghan Army are not fighting the great mass of the Afghan people they are fighting the Taleban who terrorised and raped the country for six years and who are now in hiding along the border with Pakistan.

The Russians went into Afghanistan with 154,000 troops, armour and airpower - they weren't there to build anything - their conscripts lost.

Currently there are 63,000 ISAF and US troops in Afghanistan, which probably translates to something like 18,000 combat troops - and the Taleban are hiding where Kevin? 48 they lost yesterday, not a big number I know, nothing like the 250 they lost attacking the decoy convoy to the Kajaki Dam, that those 48 men thought that they were "home-and-safe" - they weren't - they lost.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:10 PM

The Russians were actually invited in by the Afghan government of the day, following a pretty bloody coup. This proved a slight mistake from the point of that government, since they subsequently decided to overthrow that government and install one they preferred. (Rather analogous to some of the stuff the Americans pulled in Vietnam.)

As for "invited in by the Afghan Government in exile" - there is always liable to be a government in exile handy anytime it's seen as necessary to invade a country.

There are lots of differences between the Soviet-Afghan War and the current one. But an awful lot of similarities as well. And I expect the final outcome (insofar as any outcome is ever "final") is likely to be towards the similar end of the spectrum.

In 1989, the Russians pulled out, leaving a "friendly" government in in Kabul, supposedly able to see off the mujahideen.   Before too long that government fell, and the mujahideen called it victory. The fighting continued, and eventually someone came out on top, and imposed a strong-arm regime - the Taliban as it happened. I don't imagine things will go all that differently this time round.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 06:58 PM

"Al Queda" means "the database". The name arose directly from the huge computerized database by which the CIA kept track of the many Muslim fanatics they recruited as Mujahedeen to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan in the 80s. - According to Little Hawk.

Unfortunately Al-Qaeda is an arabic word and directly translated means "the base" not database and has absolutely nothing to do with any huge CIA computerized database. Utterly ridiculous.

The organisation takes its name from what Osama bin Laden set up in Pakistan to assirt the Mujahadeen in their fight against the Soviets - A "Base".

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM

For LH's benefit here's the chapter and verse on it:

"The name of the organization comes from the Arabic noun qâ'idah, which means foundation or basis and can also refer to a military base or database. The initial al- is the Arabic definite article the, hence the base. In Arabic qa'idah bayanat is database where bayanat is data and qa'idah is base.

Osama bin Laden explained the origin of the term in a videotaped interview with Al Jazeera journalist Tayseer Alouni in October 2001:

" The name 'al-Qaeda' was established a long time ago by mere chance. The late Abu Ebeida El-Banashiri established the training camps for our mujahedeen against Russia's terrorism. We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda. The name stayed."

Saad Al-Faqih, a Saudi expert on al-Qaida, has stated that the name al-Qaida, "…originated from a documentation system in the Bait al-Ansar guesthouse back in the 1980s."

The United Kingdom politician Robin Cook, who served as the United Kingdom Foreign Secretary and Leader of the House of Commons described Al-Qaeda as meaning "the database" and a product of western miscalculation. Cook wrote, "Al-Qaida, literally 'the database', was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians."

Robin Cook was a complete and utter idiot at the best of times. His contention is ludicrous considering how little the US intelligence services knew about Al-Qaeda, mainly because they always dealt with them via middle-men in Pakistan's ISI.

Subject: RE: BS: Taleban announces Swat ceasefire
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:09 PM

How could anyone ever confuse "a documentation system" with "a data base"?