Origins: Curragh of Kildare/The Winter It Is Past

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:11 PM

For example , Forty Shades of Green - A traditional Irish song written by Johnny Cash

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:11 PM

Alberto,
Perhaps you'd like to name one Irish song that the English or Scotch have claimed as theirs.

The song under discussion here is clearly set in Ireland and in the earliest extant version, as mentioned by Bruce above, the lover is most definitely a jockey, nothing to do with soldiers. However it was widely printed in England and as already been said the version being currently sung is based on a version printed in Scotland.

There are many songs common to England, Ireland and Scotland. In most cases it is impossible to determine in which of the countries a song originated. As someone has already mentioned these sort of songs passed freely back and forth between the countries with a common language and that includes North America. Many of the songs nowadays taken to be Irish are in fact by American authors writing FOR the Irish in America.

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Newport Boy
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:50 AM

Not after St Patrick, Leadfingers. He took the snakes out of the curry for evermore.

Phil

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 11:46 AM

There were snakes and there was hair
In the Curry of Kildare

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:35 AM

Christie Moore's the one who claims it as a Scottish song.

At any rate the traffic was two way, hence the naming of a type of tune as "highland" in Donegal. There's lots of Irish music that is genuinely Irish, lots of Scots music that originated in Ireland, England or even Italy, the same with English music, and one of the fascinations of traditional arts is trying to follow how various strands have moved between countries and even continents.

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Albert O'Einstein
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:24 AM

Why is it that The Scotch & English always try to claim ownership of Irish music and Song? The only reason so much of this stuff exists in Scotland is because it was BROUGHT there by the constant migration of Celtic peoples to Scotland from the land of Saints & Scholars over the centuries.

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 07:51 AM

If you go down to the Curragh Camp,
Call in at number nine,
You'll see three squaddies standing there,
Ah the good looking one is mine,
He was a quaire one fol the dig a di do,
He was a quaire one and I'll tell you.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:51 AM

The Curragh is also home to the Curragh Camp, the chief base of the Irish Army. It's been an army camp since well before Irish independence and was the site of the Curragh mutiny, when officers in the British army based in Ireland threatened to resign their commissions rather than enforce the Home Rule Bill then before the British parliament. This is an almost-forgotten episode in British military history - the closest thing in modern British history to a military coup. The mutiny was a huge boost to Edward Carson's Ulster Volunteer Force and a spur to the formation of the Irish Volunteers and James Connoly's Irish Citizen Army.

My reading of the song has always been that it refers to the army camp rather than anything to do with racehorses - or sheep.

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:39 AM

I believe Christie Moore took the version from Johnson's Musical Museum, believing it was written by Burns, and added the Irish chorus.

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:31 AM

Curragh is different to currach, it originally means 'place of the running horse'

Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: Margaret V
Date: 02 May 00 - 06:59 PM

Thank you very much, everyone! I had searched the forum for "Curragh of Kildare" and came up empty. Per advice from Guest, I searched using just "Curragh" and found the previous (informative) threads. I'll keep my eyes and ears open for some of the other recordings you mentioned, Phil. Margaret

Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 02 May 00 - 06:01 PM

Burns' title, "The Winter It Is Past" (Scots Musical Museum, #200, 1788) is that of the tune, which is in Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', bk. 10 (c 1759).

Subject: RE: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: GUEST,Phil Cooper
Date: 02 May 00 - 05:21 PM

What you heard at a Burns supper was Robert Burns re-working of the song. I believe he titled it the "Winter it is Past." That version was recorded by Jean Redpath on Vol. 2 of her series of Burns arrangements with composer Serge Hovey (I think) that was on Philo. Archie Fisher recorded a version with Garnet Rogers on the one album they did together a few years back. It has a nice tune that way. Though I like the other version as well. Bert Jansch did one on "A Rare Conundrum." Hope this helps. Phil

Subject: Help: Curragh of Kildare
From: Margaret V
Date: 02 May 00 - 11:31 AM

Does anyone have any information on "The Curragh of Kildare?" I have only heard it recorded by Cliff Haslam (beautiful! Version is in the DT), but recall hearing a poem with very similar words at a Burns Supper. Thanks. Margaret

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 30 Jun 99 - 01:50 AM

G'day,
Thanks Alice & Bruce (wearing shades).

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 10:36 PM

thanks, Bruce

Subject: Tune Add: THE WINTER IT IS PAST
From:
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 05:25 PM

There's little difference between the earliest Scots and Irish copies of the tune (1st two below). G. Petrie in 'The Ancient Music of Ireland' said that he had noted the tune from a Betty Skillin (about 1805), but P. W. Joyce in 'Old Irish Folk Music and Songs', #427, said that Petrie's tune is one he (Joyce) had noted in 1852, and had sent to Petrie. It doesn't appear that Joyce was correct in this. The copy in Stanford-Petrie, #439, has no note as to its source, is in 2/4 rather than common time, and lacks the repeat for the chorus (given in full by Joyce, 1908, and Petrie, 1855). Both Petrie copies (with minor differences in timing between them) are in F mixolydian, and Joyce's is C lydian.

More variant is the copy of the tune in 'The Scots Musical Museum', #200, which is rather poorly engraved so I don't guarantee the accuracy of the ABC below. I suspect that this version is what was called the 'different' Scots tune.

There are two broadside ballad versions of the text in Holloway and Black's 'Later English Broadside Ballads', I, #54, "The Irish Lovers" and #66, "The Lamenting Maid". "The Love-Sick Maid" version in 'Roxburghe Ballads', VI, p. 240, is from a garland of 1765.

The 1st verse is also found in the Scots song "Mally Stuart", given from a broadside copy by D. Laing in 'Additional Illustrations to the Scots Musical Museum', #497. A traditional version of this is in 'The Greig-Duncan Folks Song Collection', I, #97.

X:1
T:THE WINTER IT IS PAST
S:Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Companion', bk 10, c 1759-60
Q:120
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:G
G/A/|BABd|G2gf|dBAB|G2AB|cdef|{e/f/}g2 f3/2e/|d3::\
c/B/|cdef|{e/f/}g2fe|dBAG|A2GA|B2Be|dcBA|G3:|]

X:2
T:The Winter it is past, or Curragh of Kildare
S:Petrie's 'Ancient Music of Ireland', 1855
Q:120
L:1/8
M:4/4
K:Fmixolydian
F|FD FGB2e3/2d/|cB G3/2F/F2AB|c2def2ed|(c4c2)cd|ec de f2 ed|\
cB GFF2FG|B2ed cB G3/2F/|(F4F2)cd|ec def2ed|cB GFF2FG|\
B2ed cB G3/2F/|(F4F3)|]

X:3
T:The Winter it is Past
S:The Scots Musical Museum, #200, 1788
Q:120
L:1/8
M:2/4
K:C
F3/2G/|A3/2 G/ A c|F2f d |c A G F|G2 G A| C D E|\
(fe) (d^c)|d4{BAG}|Fe c3/2B/|A c d e|f3 e/d/|c A G F|\
G2 F3/2G/|A2 A3/2 d/|(cB A G|F4{DCD}|C2|]

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alice
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 02:29 PM

To Rich and Alan, here is a quote from a website called "The Curragh of Kildare".
-----
The Curragh of Kildare

Dr. A.P. Smyth wrote about Celtic Ireland "The ancient Irish knew good land as well s any modern farmer, and the Curragh of Kildare and the Plains of Meath formed the heartland of Irish civilisation".

The Curragh is situated in the heart of Kildare and is a Plain of five thousand acres. The plain is elliptical, twenty-two square miles in area and is a sheep common. The Curragh has a variety of amenities for the tourist, picnic areas, sporting amenities, a number of pitch an putt courses and two 18 hole golf courses, the country's premier flat racing track, which hosts the ever popular Budwiser Irish Derby, there is also lots of easy walking.

On the Curragh there is a population of thirteen hundred horses, this area is the home of Irish breeding and training. The National stud is located on the edge of Kildare town beside the famous Japanese Gardens both are open to the public and are well worth a visit.

Pollardstown Fen:

At the border of the Curragh on the Newbridge side of the Curragh is the Curragh racecourse at the back of the racecourse and off the plains is Pollardstown Fen. Pollardstown Fen is the largest fen in Ireland.. The fen which is a tract of Marshy land, this area is of particular interest to botanists and ecologists because of the numerous bird species that nest and visit the here also many rare plants and fen that grow here. A "Hide" has been built in the fen for those interested in viewing the wild life. There is 36 known springs serving the area, including Father Moore's Well and "Seven Springs" many come from deep beneath the Curragh plains sandy soils.

Here is a link to the page I quoted.http://www.rtc-carlow.ie/Kildare/misc/curragh.html

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 29 Jun 99 - 10:00 AM

G'day,
"Folksongs & Ballads popular in Ireland" says: "Taken down at different times by collectors like Petrie and Joyce, this song has been published with a set of lyrics known in Scotland and one of Irish origin, different airs were in use with this 18th cent. song".

I've always been puzzled by the line "He/she lives in the Curragh of Kildare".

(Dictionary definition: currach, Scot, Irish a coracle. Also curragh)

Why live in a boat?

More likely it refers to the racecourse of that name, but why live there??

How would an inland racecourse get a name like that???

Does "curragh" mean something else in this case, if so what????

Cheers,
Alan

Subject: RE: Curragh of Kildare
From:
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 01:35 PM

See "Winter it is passed" in the Scots Tune Index at www.erols.com/olsonw for early copies of text and tune.

---

https://mudcat.org/olson/viewpage.cfm?theurl=SCOTTUNS.html

Winter it is past, The [SMM #200. Song: Ebsworth printed an eighteenth century copy entitled "The Lovesick Maid" in Roxburghe Ballads, VI, p. 240, and noted another copy in The London Rake's Garland (NLS, Lauriston Castle Collection). Two other eighteen century copies have been more recently printed by Hollowell and Black in Later English Broadside Ballads, (I) p. 127, as "The Irish Lovers," and p. 152, "The Lamenting maid." Glen, ESM p. 125, discusses Oswald's tune and Irish claims.]; CPC10 9:

Subject: Curragh of Kildare
From: Rich Kelly
Date: 28 Jun 99 - 11:46 AM

Hi,

Anyone know the origins of this song? Is it old or a fairly recent addition, like The Fields of Athenry?

Rich