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BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments?
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Subject: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: bald headed step child Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:33 PM The New York Post ran a cartoon this morning that seems to be rather distasteful. I haven't seen much on the mainstream media about it.(actually no mention). The Huffington Post has the cartoon and their take on it here I find this disturbing on so many levels, I'm not sure where to start. Any comments? BHSC |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Rapparee Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM On the contrary, there's a story about it on both the CNN and AP websites (at least). Stupid and in poor taste, yes -- but I don't see any racial overtones. Then again I might well be blind to such things. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:52 PM It seems racist on its face. But would this cartoonist have made this juxtaposition if, say, Hillary Clinton were president? Is he known for racist views? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: kendall Date: 18 Feb 09 - 02:58 PM There most certainly is a racial overtone.This crap goes way back and I hope everyone who ever buys that rag again will reconsider.I have no use for knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, racist bastards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: bald headed step child Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:00 PM It may be coming up more now. It wasn't earlier that I saw. I heard about it on a talk radio show and went to investigate. I find it extremely racist, as monkeys have been used to depict blacks in this country for centuries. The inference to Obama lying dead at the hands of law enforcement is even more disturbing. I don't know if the cartoonist was previously known for racist views, but IMO he is now. BHSC |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Rapparee Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:09 PM Depictions of the Irish (and other immigrant groups) as "ape-like" or stereotyped in other ways was (and is) common. I find the cartoon disturbing, but not for racial reasons. I find it disturbing because it seems to advocate violence as a solution to something with which you might not agree. I certainly don't find it funny OR offering a new or different insight into a problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:23 PM This is one where the cartoonist ought to be interviewed and asked to explain exactly what he meant. It's too strong to remain unclear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: DougR Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:28 PM Since Obama did not write the stimulus legislation, there is no reason to equate the cartoon with him. It's a cartoon, for God's sake! On the other hand, one might wonder if the cartoonist had Harry Reid in mind, or Nancy Pelosi. They reportedly were responsible for writing the legislation. If so, racist would still have nothing to do with it as neither of them are African-American. I agree with Rapaire. I see no humor in it at all. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:41 PM My comments? It's tasteless and stupid. It isn't funny at all. It's a little hard to say whether or not it's racist...that would depend on exactly what the cartoonist was thinking about and intending when he drew it. And that, I don't know for sure. I do know that I don't like his cartoon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: SINSULL Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:45 PM It's neither funny nor racist, IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Donuel Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM Even Sharpton will get over it. The sooner even Al learns that everything has racial overtones in our tribal herd societies, the better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:49 PM It is not true that every depiction of or reference to a monkey/chimp is racist...but cartoonists ought to know charges will be made. He could have done better. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: pdq Date: 18 Feb 09 - 03:59 PM "I see no humor in it at all." I don't find any humor in most political cartoons. They are mean-spirited. I don't find much insight in most newspaper editorials, either. I stopped buying newspapers a long time ago. I stopped looking at their cartoons when Jules Pfeifer died. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:14 PM well, the cartoon is just hitting the news... MSNBC is about to do a piece on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: ard mhacha Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM There was no mistaking the racialism in the Irish cartoons, even to-day this is still apparent in the US St Patrick`s Day cards. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: robomatic Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:38 PM I'm pretty sure Honest Abe was lampooned as an ape, on a good day. Our President could be in worse company. I KNOW FOR SURE 'W' was, before, during, and no doubt after, his turn at bat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 18 Feb 09 - 04:49 PM Whether it's racist or not is perhaps debatable, but whether or not it makes light of the recent tragic case in which a woman was critically injured in an attack by a friend's pet chimp, resulting in police having to shoot the chimp, is not. As such, it's definitely in bad taste on at least one level. Perhaps the cartoonist thinks it's funny when someone's face is almost ripped off by an animal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 09 - 05:14 PM On MSNBC, it was obvious that many of those who are sensitive to such language 'feel' it as racist, |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: EBarnacle Date: 18 Feb 09 - 08:54 PM "Allowed it to get out." hah! My friend Mark Lovewell, now a columnist for the Vineyard Gazette, worked at the Post at the time of the transition from Dorothy Schiff to Rupert "I never saw a right wing slur I didn't like" Murdoch. His comment at the time was "With few exceptions, the Post has always been a sensationalist rag." Under Murdoch, it has only gotten worse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 09 - 09:07 PM ...and... it now appears that Murdoch's empire simply doesn't get...or care to get... the response. We HAVE a response from the Post editor and the cartoonist, saying essentially that they reject any interpretation of why it should upset folks. The cartoonist says (paraphrased)"it was just a comment on the stimulus, and not about anyone in particular....if it was, it would be about Pelosi, but it wasn't".. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 18 Feb 09 - 09:21 PM Been thinking about this since my prevous post. BillD says the cartoonist should have known how it would have been perceived, and I agree with that. However, does this mean that he should self-censor for fear of offending someone or a group? By their very nature political cartoons are meant to express an opinion, and will by their very nature offend some group...else what's the point of doing them? The timing of the Chimp attack vis a vs the stimulous package was both unfortunate and fortuitous. Would the the cartoonist have used a pitbull attack, like the one in SF several years ago, to make this same point had it happened now? If he had, would it have actually seemed cogent? I guess we'll never know, unless he answers the criticisms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: John Hardly Date: 18 Feb 09 - 09:36 PM here |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:07 PM A damnable smear on monkeys. I'm sure that they could have written a better bill than that thing that came out of Congress. I will complain to PETA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill D Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:14 PM "..does this mean that he should self-censor for fear of offending someone or a group?" Not generally... I do not propose anything like either real censorship OR meek self-censorship just to avoid causing reaction. What I really advocate is a sane application of taste & sense to avoid this sort of reaction. If he had to criticize the stimulus, he could have easily done so without using images and stereotypes known to have a history of racial connections. I am suggesting that his paper should have realized that it was inappropriate, not illegal. If the cartoonist, his editors and Murdoch specifically want to say extreme things, as seems likely, they should not pretend to be surprised at the reaction and dismissive of the analysis. Let 'em own up to their meanings and take the heat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: dick greenhaus Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:28 PM A question for those who don't see it as racist-- What other connection can be drawn between tha chimp and the stimulus bill? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Feb 09 - 10:48 PM Simple- The bill is a hodpodge. Would showing a donkey or elephant make it more palatable to you? The objections are laughable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Genie Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM I agree with Rapaire. Ironically (since Rupert Murdoch owns the NY Post), the Irish immigrants to the US in the 19th C. were one group commonly depicted as monkeys. Abe Lincoln was also not infrequently 'caricatured' by his opponents as an ape. And have we so soon forgotten the frequent comparisons of Dubya to a chimp? Yes, I'd say that cartoonists need to be more vigilant about comparing those of African descent to simians, but the depiction of political rivals or unwelcomed groups as apelike has hardly been limited to dark-skinned people. To me, the cartoon isn't the least bit funny or clever. Period. No matter whom it's aimed at. But the not-so-hidden hint that maybe violence against government officials is justified, well, that is WAY out of line and dangerous, IMO. Genie |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: John Hardly Date: 19 Feb 09 - 06:08 AM "A question for those who don't see it as racist-- What other connection can be drawn between tha chimp and the stimulus bill?" Whose race? Two white people (or 100+435) seem to be the ones most responsible for the writing of the bill. "And have we so soon forgotten the frequent comparisons of Dubya to a chimp?" here (again) |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:23 AM At least he got everybody's attention! |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: maire-aine Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:47 AM Reprehensible! I can see no justification for it. I don't subscribe to the Post, so I can't cancel. But I hope they suffer for it. Maryanne |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Midchuck Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:17 AM Look: Every President we've ever had has been picked on and lampooned by the papers, especially those sympathetic to the opposition party. Since Obama is (partly) African-American, it's virtually impossible to do a caricature of him without being subject to accusations of racism. I agree that that cartoon was tasteless, stupid, and not very funny. So are a whole lot of political cartoons. But if people (the knee-jerk liberals, anyway) are going to yell "racism" anytime they see anything derogatory about the present President, they're trying to impose a double standard. Peter |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: John Hardly Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:25 AM The president did not write the stimulus bill. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Genie Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:59 PM I don't think the cartoon was meant as a caricature of Obama as a chimp, nor do I think it was racist (at least consciously). The obvious (to me) message is "the stimulus bill was so poorly thought out that it might as well have been written by an ape." (And in that sense, one might say some of the republicans who hammered out the 'compromises' might also be implicated.) And you're right, Midchuck, that caricatures of a black person are more likely to be perceived as racist, in a white-dominated society, than are caricatures of whites. But I think there are lots of ways to caricature Obama without seeming racist. (E.g., you could exaggerate his skinniness or his protruding ears, neither of which is a particularly "African" trait.) More importantly, I think we do need to realize that some words and images that are not viewed as racist or 'ethnicist' in one context are likely to be in another. George Bush was caricatured as a chimp because of his individual facial features and because of how a lot of people perceived his smirking and snickering and his demonstrated intellect. It was not racist in his case, because anti-white European-American bias does not usually involve comparing their looks to simians or attributing lower intelligence to them. Similarly, the cartoons depicting Lincoln and a monkey, while pretty vicious, weren't racist either. But when there's a fairly recent cultural history of putting down blacks as lower on the evolutionary chain, comparing their looks to apes, etc., a cartoonist should know that if you use simian imagery to lampoon a black person, it's probably going to be perceived as racist. One other thing. It is especially insensitive and in poor taste to make fun of and incident that resulted in a woman losing her eyes and half her face and her friend's having to stab a beloved pet that she had raised like her own child and have the police shoot and kill him. Can you imagine a scenario where someone's teenage kid goes berserk and savagely attacks their friend, with potentially lethal results, and the parent has to take a knife to their own kid and then watch the police shoot the kid dead? Do you think a political cartoonist would use that scenario in the way this one did the police shooting of the pet who attacked a woman? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: katlaughing Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:12 PM It's not funny, in very poor taste and has racist overtones. The woman who was attacked is not even out of intensive care, yet and faces yet more surgery. It is obscene for the cartoonist to use her tragedy for any reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: DougR Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:38 PM Maryanne: Well, why don't you subscribe so you can cancel? That should show 'em. Newspapers are hurting pretty badly these days. Our local paper sometimes has the same story in two separate sections of the newspaper. The Monday edition has about three sections, Tuesday three sections, Wednesday the Food Section is added in combination with the Leisure news, and by Friday, there is almost a full fledged newspaper (with about 80% advertising). I doubt the Post's circulation picks up much as a result of this cartoon. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: GUEST,mg Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:10 PM I don't know if it is overtly racist or not, although certainly anyone should know better, but I agree with others that the main point is using the chimpanzee attack in a cartoon, where the woman had her face eaten off supposedly, and a teams of doctors did surgery on her for 7 hours supposedly, is in such awful, absysmal taste..obscene. If it had been an ordinary chimp depiction, then we should have the racial discussion, but this is so way beyond that that other things have to be talked about first and foremost. And read up on this chimp attack. Very little sympathy is expressed for the woman whose face was ripped off. Too much for the woman who kept a lethal animal in her house. I guess the sympathy for the chimp is reasonable, saying he should have been on a refuge for chimps or something. So I think Sharpton et al should turn their energies into the appalling subtext of this and show their horror of this entire situation and let the racial discussion be tabled for now and brought up in a different situation. What I am saying is it was not one race or another, but the entire human race in this instance. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: kendall Date: 19 Feb 09 - 07:22 PM Sharpton should learn the difference between infer and imply. Look, black people have always been compared with apes. Although he didn't write the bill, he is the driving force behind it, and the cartoonist knows that. This cartoon is racist if you have eyes to see the obvious.We all know what Rupert Murdock thinks of democrats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: robomatic Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:47 PM Sharpton doesn't draw much water nowadays; his statements may derive from a sense that he has lost a great deal of relevance, which he deservedly has. I think he and Limbaugh are experiencing the same thing from different sides of the coin, a need to rabble rouse having lost on the field of logical discourse. Any President is going to draw a lot of fire, and Obama is and will continue to do so. American politics is not known for subtlety, and I'm sure a ton of stuff is going to fly towards color, multi-racial, multi-ethnic references, just as anyone's ethnic background can find itelf noted in public discourse. It'll be an interesting term in office. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:28 PM For what it's worth, the Post has apologized for offense given. However, they did not apologize to the professionally offended like Al Sharpton. Al and his cohorts plan a protest at the Post tomorrow (Friday). |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Donuel Date: 20 Feb 09 - 10:13 AM The editor for the Post will be replaced before the year is out. He has displeased his lord and master Rupert Murdoch. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill D Date: 20 Feb 09 - 11:35 AM It was a strange 'apology'...but coming from the Post, it was a milestone. (reminds me of the apology... "If I said anything I'm sorry for, I'm glad of it!") |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill H //\\ Date: 20 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM Interestingly I just pulled out a NY Post from 1963 to give to my grandkids---when it was still a newspaper and not a sheet that even fish would not want to be wrapped in. Back then--prior to the Murdoch ownership--they had great columnists (Lerner, Kingdon, Wechsler,etc;) but head and shoulders above all political cartoonists was Herblock---great cartoons with a point and not demeaning in any ethnic, religious, or other way. http://billhahnprogramnotes.blogspot.com |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Feb 09 - 04:13 PM Tempest in a teapot, signifying nothing, except, of course, the continual bad taste exhibited by the infamous New York Post, because they hijacked a tragic incident to try to make a political point. This is as insignificant as The New Yorker Obama cover that people got so bent out of shape about. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Skivee Date: 20 Feb 09 - 05:41 PM The cartoon is wrong in so many ways that it's a poster child for bad taste. It's also not funny, thought-provoking, or informative... A waste of ink. On the other hand ( and not wishing to hijack the thread), I have never understood why Herblock is regarded as a saint by so many folks. I always found his work painfully obvious and crudely drawn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Stringsinger Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:37 PM There were racist implications. Shooting a chimp suggest a kind of violence that is abhorrent. To whom was that violence directed? Be real! White-washing is a white American pastime. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Feb 09 - 04:35 PM This picked up the details of the Connecticut shooting of a 200-pound chimp that badly maimed a woman and commingled it with political issues of the week. It was in no way a deft cartoon, simply ham-handed. This cartoonist apparently has a reptuation for being an oaf. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Bill H //\\ Date: 21 Feb 09 - 04:57 PM I believe Herblock was so highly regarded because of ability to draw great caricatures that told the story (sometimes no words needed). Besides winning many prizes for his work he was also the recipient of a Pulitzer (I doubt this fellow will get anything other than a prize for bad taste). By the way----I seem to recall the the term "McCarthyism" was coined by Herbert Block bill hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: robomatic Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:16 PM Rupert Murdoch apologized in today's paper, as well he should. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:58 AM Yes, he wouldn't want to risk losing readership! |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Donuel Date: 25 Feb 09 - 10:05 AM I support any cartoonists right to satirize anything. Even the revoting image can cause necessary thought and debate. Personally I have shown the cowboy redneck aspect of Bush as well as his future grave, but I never depicted an assasination. Murdoch is not just behind the curve, he is a dinosaur on the verge of extinction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Mar 09 - 03:10 PM Let's see if the shoe fits the other foot |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Joe Offer Date: 02 Mar 09 - 04:48 PM I dunno. I hesitate to get all "huffy" about political cartoons, and I don't think there's reason for the Post to apologize. It's a real trick to make an effective political cartoon, and the cartoonist needs a lot of freedom to be able to pull it off. With few exceptions, the cartoon has to be funny; it has to make its point fairly clearly; and it ordinarily has to be acerbic without being offensive or overly shocking. This one didn't work - it wasn't funny, it didn't make its point well, and it was quite easy to read offensive overtones into the cartoon. In sort, the cartoon was a flop. If I were an editor, I'd expect a cartoonist to have a cartoon that didn't work every once in a while, and I'd make allowances for the occasional flop. It the cartoonist had too many flops, THEN I'd fire him/her. But despite what the Huffington Post and others seem to think, I can't get particularly upset about this cartoon. It just didn't work for me. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Sawzaw Date: 02 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM It seems to me that people are searching for something to be offended about. Then others make an industry out of it. Limbaugh etc, make an industry out of bitching about things. People need to have a thicker skin. There is a couple in Russia that want to name their son BOCh RVF 26062002. The officials tell them to pick a real name but they insist it is a violation of their rights not to be able to name him anything they want so he does not have a birth certificate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NY Post cartoon. Any comments? From: Sawzaw Date: 03 Mar 09 - 03:39 PM Where is the outrage over this? Come on Bobert, get out your Jim Crow racist cliche's and start pontificatin'. |
