BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?

Subject: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:47 AM

Yesterday, in a speech, that can be seen all over internet, Atty. Gen'l Eric Holder, noted that Americans, in their personal lives are largely cowards, avoiding speaking of things racial with friends, acquaintances and neighbors.

Many comments on the web disagree, some vehemently, with his assessment, or even that he brought it up at all I believe much of what he had to say was spot on. I know that I am uncomfortable speaking of racial matters with people of color, even though I consider myself color-blind. Only a couple of times have I had private conversations with a Black person about race where it didn't turn into a blame the other guy thing.

We currently have threads going on about Rev. Wright, and of the Chimp/Stimulous editorial cartoon. We've had threads about singing SC Foster or Old Man River in dialect. These are extreme cases, and test us mightily...but we have never spoken of race relations as part of our daily life while discussing these specific topics. Can it even be done without falling into ad hominum posts? Such discussions can be cut dead, by the mere accusation of 'Racism' making them very difficult to continue.

JotSC

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:00 AM

John - I've been hoping that the election of a black president will lessen the sting of being called racist. As you say, it stops the dialogue on almost any subject. If one party can't come up with an intelligent response, he/she simply calls the other person a "racist," and expects the discussion to end.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:04 AM

Excellent question, John.

Such discussions can be cut dead, by the mere accusation of 'Racism' making them very difficult to continue.

I've seen that happen several times, here.

My ex-son-in-law is form Antigua. We had a lot of discussions, mostly of him telling me about incidents of discriminations he has experienced over the years since coming to live here as a teen. He knew he had unconditional support and love from me and my family and there was never a question. Now, my daughter is dating an American of African descent, the same holds true. One curious thing about him, his family has been unable to find any slaves in their genealogy which is extensive.

Around here, there is more racism towards Hispanics. I have many long time friends who are Americans of Mexican descent, but haven't been out and about enough to meet anyone new, but I think the newer residents probably feel more racism than my friends. I find it more difficult to get to know them and talk with them because I do not know enough of their language and I see that as my problem, not theirs. We do shop at specific Mexican shops, partly because we like what they have for sale, but also to show support.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:05 AM

The problem with an accusation of racism (and pretty much every other "ism") is that in defending it, one labels oneself as that of which accused ; and in not defending it, the accuser is convinced of his rectitude.

What never fails to piss me off is the "but" which invariable follows "I'm not a [insert relevant adjective], but . . . ".

No ?

(As a Limey I'm not qualified to cast nasturtiums on Americans, even tho' Mommy is a Septic :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:07 AM

Years ago I served cups of soup to two Japanese college students while the two white boys didn't get any. They protested. I said, Well, they ordered the meals where soup is included. You didn't.

One of the Japanese students said, Ha! How do you like that , white boy?

(Nothing particularly significant about the story- I just like it.)

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:11 AM

Dern it. I left out the definitive part:

Well, they ordered the meals where soup is included. You didn't. I don't like to discriminate but...

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: pdq
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:12 AM

"As a Limey I'm not qualified to cast nasturtiums on Americans..."

Try the forged nasturiums next time. Much stronger than the cast ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:18 AM

Big time.

Also, don't forget "bless their heart" - (followed by some awful insult said indulgently).

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: meself
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:18 AM

"...but we have never spoken of race relations as part of our daily life while discussing these specific topics. Can it even be done without falling into ad hominum posts?"

On the contrary, John, there have been a number of times here when people have "spoken of race relations as part of our daily life while discussing", etc., and the ensuing discussion does not necessarily fall into ad hominen attacks. For instance, Azizi has offered considerable insight into her experience growing up African-American, while any number of white posters have related anecdotes from their own experience by way of making some point regarding race relations.

As for "cowardice" - remember, "discretion is the better part of valour".

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: olddude
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:22 AM

I would think electing a black president after 40 years of struggle does indeed show how far this great nation has gone. Obama wasn't elected by minorities only , he was elected by the American people all colors and creeds ... No we are not Racial Cowards ... we may take a while to atone and admit our sins of the past, but we put our sins in the front of our window for the world to see and don't hide them as many other countries do. We also teach our kids to be better. Yes there are hate groups, there always will be no matter what country you live in. WE came a long way ...

Not perfect by any means, but you will be hard pressed to do better I thinks. Unlike the American of my childhood, American's are looking at people as Americans these days and I thank God Almighty for it

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:23 AM

At the current rate of "PC" here in the UK I imagine in about ten years it will be the whites rattling the sabre about racism !

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:31 AM

When I first became a road salesman (peddler, if you will), one my first customers was the Afro-American (term in vogue then) owner of a furniture store. Over the years as territories changed and businesses moved, he and I would cross paths, and he was again a customer of mine at the time I retired.

A few years ago, a very hot, summer day in the valley, I walked into his store. He was wearing a colorful dashiki and matching skull cap.

"When did you start doing the African thing?" I asked on greeting him.
"Well, if you haven't noticed after all these years..." he answered with a huge smile.
"Oh, I've noticed, alright," I said, "but this is the first time in over thirty years I've seen you attired in other than a dapper, double-breasted suit."

He was one person I felt comfortable speaking of race with, but somewhat guardedly.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: number 6
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:38 AM

Holder made that remark to a crowd celebrating Black History Month at the Justice Department..... the actor Morgan Freeman comes to mind here .. the following is an excerpt from Wikipedia regarding Freeman ...

"Freeman has publicly criticized the celebration of Black History Month and does not participate in any related events, saying, "I don't want a black history month. Black history is American history." He says the only way to end racism is to stop talking about it, and he notes that there is no "white history month".

More from Freeman ... "Freeman once said on an interview with 60 Minutes' Mike Wallace: "I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man."

I can't help but fully agree with Freeman. Once we stop seeing each other as black or white ... we don't have a problem.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:42 AM

"Azizi has offered considerable insight into her experience growing up African-American, while any number of white posters have related anecdotes from their own experience by way of making some point regarding race relations"

Azizi and her posts prove (test) my assertion. So never is too strong. We rarely discuss our race as part of our daily life.

Oldude, that is not what the thrust of the Atty. Gen'l's comments were about. He acknowledged, that we've come along way in the public sphere of race relations; he was clearly addressing private race relations, as I noted in my opening sentence. Do you think he is wrong about that? I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:44 AM

I think Americans can find among themselves, in every ethnic group:

Racial Cowards

Racial Prevaricators

Racial Optimists

Racial Ignoramuses

Courageous Advocates of Racism

Courageous Advocates of Non-Racism

Courageous Advocates of Anti-Racism

Wasn't it in the movie "Bulworth" that the eponymous character announces to all and sundry: "I think we should f*&^ each other until we're all the same color!"?

I think that took a little courage to write, print and film. . .

In short, I think that Americans are among the overall best confronters of racial matters, having lived with 'em since the inception, fought a war over 'em, and dealt with 'em up and down the entire legal system AND the entire political system.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:54 AM

Bryn Pugh said (correctly):


What never fails to piss me off is the "but" which invariable follows "I'm not a [insert relevant adjective], but . . . ".

Remember what "but" means. It means, "Forget what I just said; here's what I really mean."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bert
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:56 AM

...until we're all the same color!...

We ARE all the same color under our new President.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 12:01 PM

I think Americans can find among themselves, in every ethnic group:

TRUE -- But THAT ISN'T THE POINT of his comments. There are most always individual who take brave stands..go against the grain publicly.

PRIVATE LIFE is what he is speaking to. Do people of different races living in the same neighborhood, shopping at the local market, speak with their neighbors frankly about their views. I believe overwhelmingly this does not happen.

He is not speaking to educational, political and work place gains which are light years ahead of 50 years ago. He is talking about everyday personal interaction and dialogue.


And I'm the Conservative at Mudcat...I'm beginning to feel like a flaming Liberal, based on many of the responses here. Stay on poin folks!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:12 PM

For instance, there are a thousand reasons to be concerned about illegal aliens residing in America, but if one is to mention just one reason, someone will call him/her a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:45 PM

"Americans" - you surely mean USAians. Please don't insult the normal folks of Canada, Central & South America.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 01:58 PM

You think Holder stands corrected?

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:09 PM

One of the problems with discussions of any sort is that most people are trying to be heard, but most people are only eharing that which they prefer to hear and then responding by truing to be heard, but are only met by people who can only hear what they prefer to hear who then trespoind with....

I need some aspirin.

I got some good advice once which was not to say anything you would not say in just the same way while wrapped up in a relaxed, loose embrace with the person to whom you're speaking. Wouldn't it be GREAT if communication followed that advice? When we're speaking, we'd be able to feel the hearer tense up as the words leave our mouths, and maybe we'd try a little harder to soften our speech.

Hm, but we're in text.... well, I think I'll just start by borrowing Andres' approach:

Abrazos,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:09 PM

I'm far left on most things political but in America, "liberalism" appears to be the problem; these people...and there are quite a few on this forum, will tar ya if you dare to dicuss race or sexuality objectively.
You will be called a "vile filth spewing bigot" if you disagree with their most illiberal stance on these subjects.

Just like Rig says really!

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 02:11 PM

Canada has its share of bigots, racists, etc. Hell, we have 'reserves' for Indians (First Nations people; aboriginal people; native people). That institutional racism. I do my best to avoid that kinda crap, but when I was growing up it wasn't until I was about 14--and I got a slap across the face for being a wise ass--when I heard a close family relation say regarding a person's skin colour, "It's only an accident of birth." The kid (me) replied, "Some accident considering he's got two Black parents." Hoooooly, did I pay for that remark. It kinda ranked there with that same close relative saying, "Eat everything on your plate; there are children starving in Korea." I said, "Name three!" Swack.

Times are changing. Likely not as fast as we'd all like, but changing nevertheless. King said it best, IMO: words to the effect that he looked forward to the day when people were judged not by the colour of their skin but by the conduct of their character.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:14 PM

I wouldn't say cowards..pragmatists...realists..desiring to make some amends for past abuses..fatigued..mg

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:20 PM

Peace has always been a weisenheimer; its in his genes.

As to racism, I think--apparently along with Mister Freeman--that there is no such thing in any objective sense that can be treated as a topic of general discussion. Individual merit is much more interesting, and lumping people into pots of color is about as dumb as arguing against the theory of evolution. It doesn't serve any purpose, and often offers heat without light.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 03:41 PM

I have trouble grouping people by colour, religion, socioeconomic status, banjoplayers, whatever. I find all kinds of red flags going up if I encounter inclinations in myself or others to limit individuals to a group.

I feel a bit uncomfortable with the term colour blind in this context. Is that something to be proud of?

I am not (I hope), nor would I ever want to be colour blind. Better to see and embrace and value all aspects of the person than to be blind to any of them, especially the lovely package that person is wrapped in. And by package I don't mean only colour of skin. The package includes the intelligence, wit and personality formed by experience and society with other people.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:15 PM

I was listening to NPR earlier, and some caller thought Holder should resign over the remark..

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:25 PM

Why? He spoke the truth. Maybe someone else should have other than the attorney general, but why should he resign? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 04:26 PM

To me it is racist to make race the issue. How about "Human Relations? If race comes up, deal with it then and there instead of making it a prerequisite for relations. When trying to overcome differences it is just stupid to start things off by emphasizing the very differences one wishes to overcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 05:36 PM

As several have commented, his statements - in context - were certainly correct and completely justified.

The problem is that the only way it will ever really be easy to talk about is when there's no need to say anything.

We do have a ways to go, and there are many other very similar subjects.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:07 PM

The problem is that the only way it will ever really be easy to talk about is when there's no need to say anything.

That sums it up pretty well. As with hair colour.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:29 PM

JotSC:

I think we are entering a period where we can speak more frankly about race when appropriate, as in not every barbecue with neighbors must result in a heart to heart about race, sex, or the true American social 'third rail', money.

I went to college as a freshman, straight into a social experiment, the institution of a dormitory which was targeted to be a black dormitory. I found it very interesting and eductional, but it didn't mean I was talking about race every day.

I also don't personally think that every incidence of cowardice is denigrating. I think it's natural and often acceptable to make "discretion the better part of valor".

Years ago I saw a movie called "The Hell With Heroes" and while I've totally forgotten it, I've remembered the title and used it to myself when that word is being flown from the media staff for folks who had few choices or were really victims.

As for Holder, I missed the actual statement and context of it, so I'm sort of glad there's a fuss but at the same time there should be some latitude for freedom of expression which also means freedom of (mis) expression. If we become afraid to merely utter anything in public, we enter into our own Stalinesque world, which in fact we are doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 08:49 PM

Well, gol friggin' danged...

Now here's a subjets that I have wrutten about here in Mudville goin' back a few year and a subject near and dear to my heart...

Not...

Seems that "divide and conquer" has been alive and well in the US forever...

Okay, it is now cleaverly codified with an entire language that has replaced the old "nigger and honkie" times but is still very much alive and...

...well... Well, not so well and that is a good thing...

For me, I had the fortune of spending a great deal of my life living with black folks and so I'd kinda like to recuse myself as an impartial witness... In many ways I am more black than white... I play black music... My speech is very influenced by the speech patterns of black folks... I trust black folks more than whites...

I guess that makes me some kinda racist... lol...

But really, yeah, Bill Clinton tried to get this discusssion going back in '96 'er '97... The country wasn't ready yet...

I'm not too sure when the country will be ready 'cause this discussion is going to lead to a discusssion of "repair"ations and white folks have been conditioned to not want to talk about repairing the damage that our country has done to black people...

"Well, Ralph, why should I have to pay for somethin' that my great grand-daddy did?"

Well, becasue we all live in a country of great wealth and alot of that wealth was created on the backs of black folks, that's why...

So, that's why the conversation doesn't happen...

As fir me, I'd love nothin' more than to have this discussion... It would not only be specifically about balck folks but would open up the larger question of how America's wealth can be expalined and who should be benefiting...

Lastly, there were no African volunteers in 1619 to board a ship headed for the colonies to "help out" (lol...)...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 09:20 PM

Resign over the remark? The poster is a perfect Red Queen: sentence first, trial later--if at all. And he's been such a strong Obama supporter for so long.   I'm truly shocked.

But I'd certainly say Holder's remark is over the top, and I'm surprised to hear Mudcatters defend it. (Or maybe not so surprised).

Those who do defend it seem to be a type often seen here--far more comfortable in the ivory tower of ideological purity than in the grit of actually getting something done--in real politics. Politically it was a classic faux pas. Politics is the art of the possible. So you want as many supporters as you can get. Holder's statement does not help the cause, to put it mildly.

As a black friend of mine at work noted, even if Holder believed this, he should not have said it. It doesn't even matter if it's true or not.   It's pointlessly inflammatory--and being Attorney General is not exactly like being a Mudcat poster.   My own view would be that some Americans are "cowards", some aren't. Some probably feel that discretion is the better part of valor in this sort of topic. It also depends on how comfortable you are in general with your conversation partner.

But I don't buy this "we are all Martin Gibsons", "we are all racists", "we are all...(fill in the blank)" tripe. Even though some people here seem to like to wallow in that stuff.   Sorry, hairshirts have never seemed to fit me. And I''m not alone.

Holder should have thought twice. I would think that all Cabinet Secretaries--and that's what Holder is--should know they are constantly under the microscope. People are just dying to pounce on them--so don't give them the chance.   It goes with the territory. My sympathy for Mr. Holder is limited.

But I hope--and expect--that he has learned from this. Biden was considered to be the loose cannon--not Holder.

Obama might be starting to wonder if he's captaining a ship of fools. Which of course would not reflect well on the man who appointed them.

But it's still early. Better to make your mistakes early and learn from them.

In fact the Holder remark is actually trivial in the grand scheme of things--despite the seemingly endless fascination of such small potatoes for some Mudcatters. Obama has actually had some good success. He's managed to get the huge stimulus bill passed in an amazingly short time.   He's rolling back some of the most despicable Bush ideas.

And now it looks like he will be able to get voting rights for DC--quite soon even. The vote in the Senate, I understand is scheduled for next Tuesday.    Voting rights for DC would be a big feather in Obama's cap. Maybe then people will stop the endless nitpicking--for at least 30 seconds.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:06 PM

I opine that one significant reason race in the USA is so difficult to talk about has to do with validation. It is difficult to accept that each person has their own point of view, based on a complex set of experiences and social learning, and that each person's point of view is valid. To validate does not mean to agree with. It means acceptance that each of us has a point of view, is entitled to our POV, and the understanding that POV is based on our interpretations of our individual and collective experiences and teachings. It includes the notion of respect for one another's POV, and implies a mutual willingness to be open to the notion that one's interpretation may not always be "the truth" of the situation. It also recognizes complexity, incorporates the willingness to acknowledge ambiguity and relativity.

That is a tall order and can reguire a significant commitment of psychic energy within the context of relationships as well as a mutual commitment to "stay the course" if the relationship is to be preserved. It is possible to value professional or personal relationships that are not particularly close or intimate, and if they are not close or intimate, it is difficult to assess the commitment of the other to "stay the course." That being the case, it is not surprising that people often choose to hold onto the relationship they know they have, rather than risk losing any connection.

My own rather broad experience in my relationships with friends and professional colleagues is that issues of race have very little effect or need of discussion in our personal relationships, and that we can easily talk about our differences in experience and interpretations of events and situations that have been influenced or affected (effected?) by our differences in race and all that implies in terms of life experience, cultural history and context and social learning. In short, we value and validate one another. Each of us recognizes that we have something to learn, and also to teach. The dialectical process flows easily and naturally, not because we are color-blind, which would mean disregarding the realities of our psychosocial personal and socio-cultural histories, experiences and social learning, but because there are not value-judgements placed on the ways we are different. The ways we are different include racial identity and experience, but we are also different in many other ways. Mostly, however, we are alike in our interests, values, education and aspirations. Like all significant relationships, they are built on a solid bedrock of common ground.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:09 PM

Click here for the Associated Press article on Holder's speech. If the article is accurate, I think I could accept with what Holder said, although I might not completely agree.

I'm not sure it's a lack of courage. I think it's a lack of communication - or a lack of the ability to communicate. The U.S. is not at the point where people of different races can discuss racial matters with honesty, a feeling of safety, and a degree of comfort. We're just not at that stage yet, and I don't think it's something that can be forced; although I think having a black President will move us along a lot quicker.

We're still at a stage where I have to think twice about describing Barack Obama as a "black President," because some people think I should say "Black President" (with a capital B), and some an "Afro-American President." And it we're still at the point where we argue about such things, then we certainly haven't "arrived." I don't know that it's actually cowardice - we just haven't reached that stage of interracial communication.

I would often like to know how it feels to be in another person's shoes when that person is suffering injustice - but oftentimes, it's patronizing just not appropriate to ask. You have to have a certain level of friendship and trust before you can ask such things. I guess I can name only two or three black people with whom I have been able to discuss racial matters with complete honesty and comfort. Is that shameful that I know so few? I dunno - I think that's just the way it is.

-joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:34 PM

I think most of you have missed the point of Holder's comments. I think Michael Medved, the liberal turned Conservative talk show host has misinterpreted his remarks. Have any of you read them or heard them.

Once more into the breech:

Holder acknowledges the great stride America has made in race relations in the public sphere. He is thinks we can do better in our private inter-personal relations. He thinks Americans are afraid to speak of race relations with neighbors of different races to understand what Blacks think about Whites or Hispanics or Asians, in a personal way, and so on among each group. We are, not everyone but generally, afraid to speak openly about race to anyone outside our own group. I believe that to be true, unless it is in a controlled moderated situation.

Ron Davies finds those comment over the top, and pointlessly inflamatory. He thinks the AG made a classic faux pas. I could not disagree more. And I don't think that Holder is placing the blame only on whites.

I don't think he means for any of us to knock on somebody's door and ask how they feel about whites, or or Asians out of the blue. I think he has in mind that as ideas come up, we should talk openly about things racial, perhaps as Robomatic notes, if they're in the news or come up in some other way.

That doesn't mean that anyone should be nasty or confrontational about it; it doesn't mean that if we say hear something outside of our comfort zone we need to be defensive, or the converse

Isn't it better to learn one on one about others perceptions of us and vice-versa? Doesn't that make more sense than mandated 'sensitivity training'? Doesn't that make more sense than imposed, restrictive speech codes?

I'm not sure where Bobert's post is going, but I didn't hear anything about reparations in Holder's speech. But it might be a topic for discussion amongst friends or neighbors of different races.

I think Holder hit just about the right note. He did not blame any group; he did point out that we can do better, but that as nation we are generally afraid to speak when we are not anonymous. Someone pointed out that some people are not afraid, and some are...I think most are. I think Holder spoke truth.

I don't think Eric Holder should resign based on anything he said yesterday. I don't think he said anything that anyone should take offense at.

Somebody wrote that they were surprised that anyone at Mudcat would defend Holder's speech. I am astounded that, given the left tilt to this website, there aren't more people here agreeing with him, and with my defense of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:50 PM

C'mon Sunset John. You think the majority of Americans will be fine characterized as "cowards" in any context?   By the way, have you ever heard of Toby Keith? Lots of Americans identify with his "Courtesy" song. That's a more likely reaction to this sort of remark. Fortunately, it was not Obama who made it---he knows better.   

It may be fine with you-- though somehow I doubt it.   As I said, one of my black friends at work said it was a mistake on Holder's part. I suspect my friend's political instincts are better than yours.

Though, as I said, if you are only speaking for yourself, fine.

Problem is: at this point Holder is a political figure--and there are consequences for him for inflammatory speech--which this is, and needlessly so. Holder will have to get used to living in a fishbowl--like every other politician.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: fumblefingers
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 10:57 PM

Holder had some more to say about race. He reckons there are too many blacks in prison.

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/race-baiters-want-racial-quotas-for-prison

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:09 PM

John, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. Our nation is well-served when those in positions of well-defined and circumscribed political power are willing to "speak truth" to the power embodied in the collective body politic of the general population. Mr. Holder's remarks signify both courage and respect for the capacity of "Joe Bloe" to contemplate and be responsive, rather than reactive.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:10 PM

Well, I listened to the whole speech, live. The only shocking thing about it is that we/I are not used to a speaker being so blunt. However, I did not feel that "the" remark or any part of his speech was over the top. Keep in mind that the context was Black History Month.

Keep in mind also that he was referring to "us", not to "you". It was not accusatory, it was inclusive.

When he said, "...in things racial we have always been and I believe continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of cowards..." , he could have used a more politic term than 'coward'. Had he instead said, "in things racial we have always been and I believe continue to be, in too many ways, essentially a nation of intimidated people."

Would that have been better? Less confrontational?

In my own family I have in recent years used a term that the family deplores. I have charged that our family is not/has not been honest, people preferring to gloss over or to ignore some elements of our commingled history, continually arriving at a conclusion that has little resemblance to what really happened.

They prefer to think that "we don't like to hurt other people's feelings", instead of facing that we are trying to spare only ourselves.

I stick with my interpretation, because we are all adults and we should be able to face truth. If not now, when?

Perhaps Atty. General Holder things that we are adult.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: mg
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:10 PM

THere are too many in prison and I would like to see as many released as can be safely released, with electronic surveillance, prison-like facilities where they must be in for the night but allowed out in the daytime, mandatory work, paid or unpaid, parenting classes, vocational education, subsidized employment. For all races of course. Very frequent drug tests. Screening would have to be really really good though and surveillance would have to be very very good with no second chances. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Janie
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:12 PM

Or...."What Ebbie said."

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:19 PM

Ron

1--I do not think any part of EH's speech inflammatory. I wish it were, so I could carp at Democrats.

2--Is your sample of one black friend a definitive survey?

3--A former Black customer of mine, one of the few with whom I openly spoke of racial issues would likely be in sympathy with Holder's remarks. Saleem is not (at least was not then) either a black activist nor an Uncle Tom type. Is he an accurate survey of how Blacks think?

4--I AM speaking for myself, of course. I am drawing on sixty years of interaction with folks of all races, creeds and ethnic backgrounds. In school, in playgrounds, on my paper route, working along side of, working under the direct supervision of, attending parties, giving parties, attending weddings and other happy occasions, advising and counseling, I have had contact and interaction with minority peoples. We once had a Black family, whose church celebrated Jewish holidays, to a Passover meal. We explained the ritual to them from a Jewish perspective, and they told us how their church interpreted those same actions. I have to admit that before the age of 10 I had very little interaction with Negroes (as we called Black folks in those days).

Perhaps if I had had more interaction as with that Black family or Saleem, I would have more of an understanding of other American groups.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 19 Feb 09 - 11:38 PM

Some I'm put to mind of a remark made by the late Robert Benchly:

Girls today will talk about anything.......in fact they won't talk about anything else.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:06 AM

Exactly what is the purpose of referring to someone as a white person or a black person?

To use the term infers that there is something wrong with that person or that the person is better for some reason.

To use those terms is racial. Just talking about it keeps it alive.

It is the racists that keep bringing it up and perpetuating the problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 12:14 AM

Because, Sawzaw, folks of different ethnic and racial backgrounds often have different historic backgrounds. Sometimes it colors (no pun intended) how they interact with others.

It behooves us to understand each other as a means of eliminating, to the extent possible, tensions between groups.

PS-glad to see you took time away from your other duties.

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 01:50 AM

Not only that, Sawz, many people take great pride in how their ethnic group met challenges.

Plus 'racial' does not necessarily denote 'racist'. Big difference.

(By the way, you meant 'imply', not 'infer'. You/I imply something, I/you in turn infer its meaning...)

Subject: RE: BS: Americans, Racial Cowards?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Feb 09 - 07:43 AM

Look, John, it's simple.   The vast majority of Mudcatters are educated and articulate people. That means we can express the same thing in many different ways. You can choose to be incendiary or not.   You do not, for instance, cite Hitler in a discussion of how popular Obama is--unless you are trying to be an agent provocateur---which in fact a lot of Mudcatters enjoy being. We realize the power of words--and we enjoy it.

Similarly, Mr. Holder is a very educated and articulate individual.   Had he said: "Many Americans still refuse to grapple with the issue of racism" nobody in the media would have taken notice of the speech at all--that is a totally unobjectionable way to phrase what he did say.

But the word "coward" is a loaded term. I'm surprised that as an educated person you did not see this.

Not that his reaction should be considered the litmus test of anything, but look at the reaction of our own delightful poster, Mr. Riginslinger.   He doesn't seem very pleased at Mr. Holder's choice of terms.

Consider the months-long huge storm then-Senator Obama caused when several of his words were picked up and used----out of context--especially by Hillary.   I suspect Obama wishes he had not said that some people are "bitter" and "turn to guns and religion" as a result. I suspect that if Senator McCain had not so thoroughly botched his reaction to the financial crisis, while Senator Obama was the picture of calm and good sense-- , McCain would have won the election.   And I suspect that many people are still bitter at Obama's use of "bitter".   So why antagonize them further?

Mr. Holder should have learned from his leader's experience.   In both cases the speaker was talking before a very friendly audience--and may have felt he could let his guard down. Wrong.   (The irony of Obama's experience in San Francisco is that it was a friendly blogger, on Huffington Post, who first publicized his remarks.)

Your own reaction to my comments reminds me very much of Teribus lashing himself to the mast and going down with his ship, rather than choosing a more seaworthy vessel in the first place.

Anybody who recognizes the power of words would see that "cowards" is just the wrong word for Mr. Holder to use in this context--unless he actually wanted to create a firestorm.   And as a politician, he should realize that carrying out President Obama's agenda should be the top goal of anybody on his team. So a needless distraction from that path should be avoided--as should risking alienating somebody needlessly--which calling them a "coward" may well do.

Mr. Holder is just lucky that there is a real firestorm going on now--the continuing plunge of the world economy. His words have sunk like a stone most places---except where people enjoy debating--like Mudcat.