BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit

Subject: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:03 PM

Geronimo died of pneumonia in 1909, at Fort Sill, Oklahoma.

In 1918, members of the Skull and Bones Society desecrated his grave and removed his skull to their club at Yale University.
Members of the society included Presidents Howard Taft and both G. H. W. Bush and G. W. Bush, Senator John Kerry and others of 'importance.'

Harlyn Geronimo, great-grandson, and other descendants, are suing the Skull and Bones, the federal government and Yale University asking that the remains be returned to New Mexico for proper ceremonies and reburial.

The validity of the story has been questioned, but it is firm belief among Apaches and other southwestern Indian groups.
In 1918, a letter from Winter Mead, a Skull and Bones member, to F. Trubee Davison, told of the removal of the skull, femurs, bit and saddle horn from the tomb at Fort Sill.

I wish Harlyn success in his attempt to discover the truth, and to obtain the remains if the story is proven. The society and Yale are represented by powerful people, and I would not doubt that they will try to hide the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:08 PM

Story "A Push for Geronimo's Remains, Stephanie Reitz, Associated Press 2/18/2009; printed in the Santa Fe New Mexican.

Geronimo Remains

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Megan L
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM

Lets hope they have more sense than to drag this on. In a similar vein the Lacota Sioux asked that a ghost shirt held in Glagow museum be returned and were delighted with the response from the city Ghost shirt .

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 01:46 PM

Let's say "allegedly" removed, since it was (supposedly) a teen-aged prank in the first place and I don't take teenagers as reliable sources much. I was speaking to an Apache friend of mine about this yesterday. We agreed that nobody has any business digging up anyone's remains, for a club ritual or anything else, but she said that this is much more of an issue for the Geronimo family than for Apaches in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:12 PM

I hear that a case may also be brought to the courts through NAGPRA (Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act).
Indian groups have been successful through court actions in obtaining not only material taken from burials, but objects important to tribal rituals and cultural history, past or present, through court actions (Cultural Patrimony provisions of the Law enacted in 1990).

(Actions before the courts and decisions are briefly summarized in "Legal Briefs," in "American Indian Arts Magazine")

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 02:14 PM

I would be glad if they had to give the bones back, but if Geronimo had any sense at all (and historically, he seems to have had) he won't be hanging about worrying about an unused skull no longer fit for occupation, no will he?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 04:37 PM

NAGPRA is the way to pursue it. They have been very effective in having remains returned since that went into effect.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 04:47 PM

I hope they are successful, also. However, far more important, imo, is asking Obama to release Leonard Peltier, who is still alive. No disrespect to Geronimo or his descendants.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: maeve
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 05:57 PM

Thanks for that link, Megan.

maeve

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 06:05 PM

Word on the street is that George Bush's old college club the Skull & Bones has Geronomos's skull... Heck, George being the mischievious little frat boy, might have made off with the skull... Who knows... Starnger stuff has occured...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 07:13 PM

Actually, W's Grandfather is supposed to have done so about the time of WW1, Bobert.

If it IS at S&B they really SHOULD give it back. I am not opposed to digging up graves and utilizing the contents for scientific knowledge I don't see why there would be any need to study Geronimo's bones -- we already know quite a bit about that period.

Perhaps it's time, perhaps past time, to shine a little light on Skull and Bones and similar "clubs."

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 07:37 PM

There's a pun in there somewhere, Rap...

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 07:39 PM

Gosh-a-rooty, really???

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 07:52 PM

A story also was told that the thievery was abetted by an officer at the post, a member of S&BS. To successfully carry out the removal at Fort Sill would have required on-post personnel (the grave is within the post boundaries).
Prescott Bush is alleged to have been a member of the group who did the job, but this, of course, is hearsay.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 07:54 PM

Well, one thing is fir sure, Q... Prescott ain't talkin'...

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:15 PM

Maybe some Apache fraternal society should go and dig up the skull of this Prescott or one of the other scullprits, and hold it till they get Geronimo's skull back.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 08:41 PM

"Let's say "allegedly" removed, since it was (supposedly) a teen-aged prank in the first place and I don't take teenagers as reliable sources much. " artbrooks

It doesn't seem to me that it would have been "teenagers" who dug up and desecrated the grave - by the time most people get to college they are at the very end of the teens and by the time they get sponsored and voted into the Society they are likely a year or two older.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:15 PM

Especially on an Army post.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:25 PM

What are ya tryin' to say, Rap??? That by diggin' up Garonomo's grave and making off with his skull that Bush can not use that as evidence that he completed his military duty???

LOL...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: bankley
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:34 PM

skullduggery.....

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:38 PM

OK...Prescott Bush was born in 1895. That would have made him 22 when he was at Ft. Sill for training in 1917. The mentality of a teenager, then.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:47 PM

OK on that one!

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:54 PM

Which mentality he definitely passed on...

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:30 PM

Art, I'll grant you that as a young 'cruit I did a lot of silly things ("The young recruit is silly..."). Even as I grew older I did a lot of silly things, even some damned silly and even dangerous things. But I never considered digging up the skull of anyone, especially not from a cemetery on a military base.

I'll grant that others might do something like that -- I've been around long enough to know that because I wouldn't do something doesn't mean others wouldn't. IF Geronimo's skull has been stolen (and the grave could be opened and such a theft easily determined) then several laws against grave robbery were broken at the time.

It's too late to prosecute under the applicable laws but it's not to late to determine if a crime DID occur and to right, as far as we are able, the wrong that was done.

Let's dig up Geronimo, return his remains to his descendants, and if it has indeed been taken return his skull. The word of a couple of young men in their early 20s is, to my mind, insufficient evidence of wrong-doing. I propose we dig in and find out for certain.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: bald headed step child
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:41 PM

I think Geronimo should be dug up.

DNA would be able to prove if a skull at Yale is his. Then his remains should be re-intered on his native soil.

Part of the conditions of his surrender was that he would be able to return to his home. He was never allowed, as the gov't never really took serious treaties made with the Native Americans. They still don't.

IMHFO

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:16 AM

As I remember, Geronimo's remains were not returned to his people because the government were afraid they would become the focus of a warrior cult. The same was true of Sitting Bull's; in that case his people went to the now-abandoned fort where he was buried (and which was due to be flooded by a reservoir) and took them.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: pdq
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:43 AM

"the gov't never really took serious treaties made with the Native Americans"

There are 56.2 million acres in the US set aside for American Indians. That is approximately the size of New York , Illinois OR Iowa.

The United States has treated its native people better than Canada has, far far better than Mexico has...


"An Indian reservation is land a tribe reserved for itself when it relinquished its other land areas to the U. S. through treaties. More recently, Congressional acts, Executive Orders and administrative acts have created reservations. There are approximately 275 Indian land areas in the U. S. administered as Indian reservations (reservations, pueblos, rancherias, communities, etc.). The largest is the Navajo Reservation of some 16 million acres of land in Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah. Many of the smaller reservations are less than 1,000 acres with the smallest less than 100 acres. On each reservation, the local governing authority is the tribal government.

The United States holds approximately 56.2 million acres of land in trust for various Indian tribes and individuals..."

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 04:59 PM

I know, pdq. And each rez is just rolling in the dough.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 08:27 PM

"The United States has treated its native people better than Canada has"

Would you care to expand on this curious statement?

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:28 AM

"Often the treaties were drawn up before the Indians even arrived for discussions. Tribes negotiated changes anyway, but few of them were ever written dwon, as the Native representatives assumed that verbal agreements would be honored. In much of Canada -- nearly half the total land area in fact -- not treaties were ever signed, and the land was appropriated more by stealth and momentum than by any pretext of legality. In British Columbia, with only a few exceptions, and all of the Atlantic Provinces, and all of Quebec, no agreements were reached.

"At first, the Native groups were allowed to choose their own Reserve lands, but that promise was quickly broken. Good farmland was excluded for the most part, and -- devastating to tribal custom -- large tracts were disallowed. Instead, Indian bands were splintered among small, unconnected plots of land. When they resisted, the government simply withheld food that was promised under the Famine Clause of the treaties. Thus we coerced, shoved, and blackmailed nomadic people into subdivisions and sub-subdivisions.

"What's more, the reserves do not belong to the people living on them. All title and ownership remains in the hands of the federal government, making Native both legally and psychologically charity-case tenants.

"This system of divide and rule did not happen by accidnet; it was all carefully worked out as a matter of policy. The young Dominion of Canada did not consider Natives to be equal citizens, and as the Indian Act of 1876 made very clear, they were to be wards of the state. The paternalism was explicit and unapologetic. The government was to be the guardian of the Indians, who were deemd to incapable of taking care of themselves...."

             --Will Ferguson, Our Home On Native Land, in Why I Hate Canadians (Vancouver: McIntyre, 1997), p.163ff.

Sure sounds like the US...only our reservations are much larger.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:32 AM

Misspellings are mine: it's early and my fingers aren't typing right.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: bald headed step child
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:28 AM

If you think Native Americans are treated so well here, you should go spend some time around the reservations in the Dakota's, and see how they are treated.

Or go to the area around the huge Navajo reservation in NM and AZ.

Many of the white owned businesses will hire illegal Mexicans before they will hire Native Americans.

The N A's are told to go back to the reservation, where there ain't too many jobs.

Of course, one of the things Bush was trying to get done was to re-open the Uranium mines there, partly because of the available workforce. The problem with that is the experienced miners there all died of cancer years ago, along with a lot of the townspeople.

But hey, they got all that land, right?

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:34 PM

Ft. Hall Indian Reservation: 45% unemployment.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: bald headed step child
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM

Having Cherokee ancestors, I have to wonder about the "giving" of land.

The Cherokee had their own democratically elected govt and Constitution, based on the US Constitution.

Gold was found, or thought to be found, on their land and the state of Georgia tried to force them off.

The case was taken to the US Supreme Court and the Cherokee's won.

Andrew Jackson refused to enforce the ruling of the court, in the opinions of myself and many others a treasonable offense, and to make a long story short, the end result was the Trail of Tears.

Forced relocation, in a death march, to a land 800 miles from their native home, in violation of several treaties and an order of the Supreme Court. At least half didn't survive the journey, but the US has never practiced genocide now, have they.

But, of course, they got all that land.

Btw, the only way they can get any of the "benefits?" of the treaties is to remain on the reservation.

And anyone who has been to both areas knows, Georgia and Oklahoma ain't exactly the same type of land.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:55 PM

You ever hear of the Trail of Death?

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: bald headed step child
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 01:16 PM

Yes, being from Kansas, I had read about it along time ago, but had forgotten the details. Of course now most people think the Pottawatomie's are from Kansas. They also seem to think Cherokee's are from Oklahoma.

Very few of the native tribes now live on their native land.

Along with the death marches, we must also remember the giving of blankets to keep warm. Oh yeah, those blankets were infected with smallpox. That can't be right, because I remember hearing that the US has never used biological warfare.

Different studies estimate 25-50 million natives living on the North American continent when the first Europeans arrived.

I'm not sure what the current numbers are, but Hitler had nothing on early American Imperialists.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 01:47 PM

The smallpox story is pretty apocryphal; the only semi-documentable instance was a plan by (British) General Amherst during the French and Indian War, but there is some doubt that he ever followed through with it. However, there is no question that the indigenous population in the Americas (North and South alike) suffered a virgin field epidemic following the introduction of European diseases that is estimated to have killed up to 90% of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:25 PM

Art is correct about that. Giving infected blankets was never a US government policy. Civilian traders, on the other hand....

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

Simple contact with the early explorers was sufficient, since measles, etc., as well as smallpox, could be fatal to one without the proper antibodies and immune responses.

The story was bandied around in western Canada in the 1850s-1860s when smallpox spread through the region. Many whites had been immunized, but most Indians and some whites had not. An early missionary named McDougall had not had his family treated, and he lost a daughter, also some family members of Metis settlers were affected in the place once on maps as Fort Victoria (later Pakan) in Alberta.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: bankley
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:56 AM

his real name was Goyathlay... Apparently the Spanish prayed to St. Jerome when they knew Goyathlay was coming after them... so he became known as Geronimo.... plus his nickname was used far too often by people jumpimg out of airplanes...

restore the artifacts and relics to their proper places....

wonder if Greece will ever get the Elgin marbles back ?

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: pdq
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:30 AM

"Geronimo's parents educated him according to Apache traditions. He married a woman from the Chiricahua band of Apache when he was 17; they had three children. On March 5, 1851, a company of 400 Mexican soldiers from Sonora led by Colonel José María Carrasco attacked Geronimo's camp outside Janos while the men were in town trading. Among those killed were Geronimo's wife, Alope, his children, and his mother. His chief, Mangas Coloradas, sent him to Cochise's band for help in revenge against the Mexicans. It was the Mexicans who named him Geronimo. This appellation stemmed from a battle in which he repeatedly attacked Mexican soldiers with a knife, ignoring a deadly hail of bullets, in reference to the Mexicans' plea to Saint Jerome ('Jeronimo!'). The name stuck.

The first Apache raids on Sonora appear to have taken place during the late 17th century. To counter the early Apache raids on Spanish settlements, presidios were established at Janos (1685) in Chihuahua and at Fronteras (1690) in northern Opata country. In 1835, Mexico had placed a bounty on Apache scalps. Two years later Mangas Coloradas or Dasoda-hae (Red Sleeves) became principal chief and war leader and began a series of retaliatory raids against the Mexicans. Apache raids on Mexican villages were so numerous and brutal that no area was safe."

{article shortened}

{the problems the Apache had were with the Mexicans, not the Anglo population...after the Gadsden purchase in 1853, the region became part of the United States...so did the bad blood with the Apaches}

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:58 AM

Saint Jerome (Geronimo, Heronimo) is one of the Patron Saints of Librarians....

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: pdq
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM

Jerome Garcia is the patron saint of Deadheads.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:47 PM

We have a very nice photo of Jerry (also Janis, Robert Plant...) in a permanent photography display here in the Library. We are very careful with them (they're permanently fastened to the wall) because I suspect that the Garcia photo, at least, would bring some decent bucks from Deadheads.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:59 PM

Geronimo had several wives (two at the time he was taken to Fort Sill, but gave one up).
He has quite a few descendants.

Subject: RE: BS: Release Geronimo's Spirit
From: pdq
Date: 24 Feb 09 - 01:32 PM

If he has many descendants, people should have no trouble getting DNA to use in a comparison test.

Assuming there is usable DNA in the skull and/or other bones, the good folks at the Yale-based club should pay for the tests. It should be done soon, and if the items should be returned if the DNA is a match. {not likely since it was a youthful prank...no certaintey the items even came from Ft. Sill, and the graveyard caretakers say Geronimo is just where he was planted years ago...}