BS: Obama and Torture

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Peace
Date: 23 Feb 09 - 12:25 AM

"Welcome to the liberal media."

Yeah. And it's about time. Under Bush, it would never have made the news at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:16 PM

"Bruce-
The graduated income tax was instituted as a permanent arrangement by Teddy Roosevelt--a good bit before WWI."

Sorry. Should hasve been clear. I'm a Canuck and was talking about Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 09:55 PM

The other thing that I think has to be vigorously stressed is that this person was not tortured for information. He was tortured for a confession. There is no valid reason for torturing someone for a confession unless what is sought is the conviction of someone for whom there is no proof, or even sufficient evidence of having committed a crime (or whatever they're being accused of).

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 09:28 PM

The guy in the article I posted the link to in the opening post had his genitals sliced by our people when they were torturing him. I don't think our methods are as subtle as only "threatening" to torture.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 09:21 PM

I think it is actually a larger subject that has been inadequately explored.

Is it torture to threaten a subject with the torture / rape/ murder of his / her relatives if he / she does not cooperate?

Is it effective torture to perform the above?

This has been performed on Soviet citizens by their government, On Persian citizens by their government, and has been used in many other circumstances. And of course, it is a staple of organized crime. I'm not aware of its use by the US, Canada, or UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 09:19 PM

Bruce-
The graduated income tax was instituted as a permanent arrangement by Teddy Roosevelt--a good bit before WWI.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 08:59 PM

Considering the track record they have of people they've tortured who were not in any way dangerous to anyone, I think it's pretty safe to suggest that the only reason they were torturing people in the first place (and it has been firmly established that information obtained by torture is famously not reliable), is so they could have warm bodies in their prisons whom they could point to and use to justify an endless war, trillions of dollars of US taxpayer money going to their cronies, and the eroding of our freedoms and civil liberties.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 08:01 PM

The ride's a little different when you're in the driver's seat.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: robomatic
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 07:36 PM

Obama Thanks Cheney For Good Advice

It also turns out that Obama and Cheney are Eighth Cousins (but isn't everybody?)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 06:15 PM

The article had a quote in it about "Obama being painted into a corner".

I'd like to take this just a bit further.

Let's say that if Obama agrees and gives in to this, then what other secrets may be in there other than "if the govt's of USA and UK torture prisoners".

As was said above, Obama was privy to reports from the Bush admin as well as reports from his own people after he was sworn in.

Don't ya think that there might be something in those reports that neither gov't wants out? Such as info that if terrorists knew we had would jeopardize lives? Strategic military plans, methods of warfare, locations of high profile targets, sources of information?

Don't assume that just because he wants some war related info to be kept secret that it's automatically something bad or devious.

There's probably a lot more to this story than what Salon.com is trying to make it look like.

Welcome to the liberal media.

Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Peace
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 05:43 PM

"I have little faith in executive branches willingly giving up power."

Yeah. Income tax was a temporary measure brought in during WWI. GST was supposed to be somewhat temporary. Yeah. Right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 04:07 PM

"GIVE THE GUY A CHANCE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM BEFORE YOU SAY HE'S JUST LIKE THE LAST GUY!!!!!"

Mr Obama is a product of the American political system, and as such, has neither the will or ability to change that system, be he black, white, green or purple, it matters nothing, Mr Obama has made it clear that the system which made him is in safe hands.
The Democratic Party have cleverly played the race card for personal power not to change anything of any significance.
Ard Mhacha is correct, Blair was the UK's Obama. He promised us "ethical foreign policy" and in exchange for our votes gave us a shameful war in Iraq.

Everyone knows that we require massive change in the political systems of the UK and the USA, but that change will never ever come from within the system, or be provided by a man of the system like Mr Obama.

Dr Martin Luther King was a man who made change really happen, and he did it from outside the political system, using people power to pressurise the establishment into ceding the biggest political change in my lifetime.

Don't be taken in, Mr Obama will tinker here and there....put his finger in the dyke, but as a product of the Chicago Democrats, he will turn out to be no Che Guavara. Mr Obama's hardest challenge in office is likely to be.... attempting to prise the claws of Hillary the Hawk from his throat!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: ard mhacha
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:53 PM

I did say he could turn out to be another Blair all piss and promises, he`s heading that way.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM

JtS tells me that the reason US politics and the US government tends to be so moribund is because voters don't hold the people they vote for accountable. We're perfectly willing to bitch and complain about the ones we don't vote for, but we don't hold accountable the ones for whom we ourselves vote. We tend to defend the ones we vote for ourselves no matter what.

He says this is the reason Canadian politicians are more responsive to the voters in Canada. He doesn't think they're perfect, but he says they couldn't get away with a lot of the stuff that US politicians can and do get away with. Canadian voters are very demanding of the people they themselves vote for, rather than just complaining about the ones they didn't vote for.

Personally, I agree with his outlook in this regard. The only way for us to get our politicians and government to respond to what the voters want is for people to be demanding of the ones they themselves voted for, and to hold them to account.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Peter T.
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 12:17 PM

I'm with Carol. This is typical executive branch stuff. Presidents -- including Obama -- talk about openness until they hear from the internal government people and the military, who are NEVER in favour of openness over secrecy. (Where's Charmian on this topic?).....

The increasing power of the executive always ALWAYS occurs when there is a war on, and one of the problems with the Cold War was that there was never a peacetime, and then there was this desperate scramble to find a new enemy, and bad luck would have it that that cunning lunatic Bin Laden came along, so now there is an eternal war on terrorism.

This inevitable encroachment was specifically discussed at great length in the Federalist papers, and it was one of the reasons why the legal system was strengthened, and Congress was created to be a check and a balance on the executive (which Congress has abrogated over the years).

I have little faith in executive branches willingly giving up power. This is especially true when your opposition constantly yells at you that you are a Democrat and so soft on terrorism, the military, etc.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:28 AM

All I have been trying to get across is GIVE THE GUY A CHANCE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM BEFORE YOU SAY HE'S JUST LIKE THE LAST GUY!!!!!

===

DAMN I like that sentence! I agree.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: bald headed step child
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM

My reference to thousands of cases did not just refer to Guantnamo.

Add up all the prison facilities around the world and there are thousands of cases to be reviewed.

Akenaton, I have been looking deeper into a lot of these issues.

The statement about not charging torturers is being a little misconstrued. Obama does not want another episode like the one in Iraq where low level soldiers were hung out to dry by the Bush administration. He doesn't want the low level guy who is following orders, he wants the guys who gave the orders. The low level guys are not going to rat out their superiors if they are going to have to share a prison cell with them.

Yes, the CIA is still allowed to render prisoners to friendly countries, but under the executive order, that is not to include countries that torture.

All I have been trying to get across is GIVE THE GUY A CHANCE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM BEFORE YOU SAY HE'S JUST LIKE THE LAST GUY!!!!!

Bush had 8 years of appointing and otherwise embedding his cronies into the system. It's going to take more than one month to get this, and all the other problems solved.

Writing letters is fine, but just writing to Obama is showing a lack of understanding as to how the system works. You should also include letters to your House Rep, and Senator, as well as members of the various committees who are involved with military and intelligence issues.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 11:12 AM

I don't think he can be as bad as the last prez. For one thing, the last prez knew that he wasn't beholden to the average voter because we're not the ones who got him into office. He knew it was the big and powerful corporate interests that got him elected. Obama, on the other hand, knows he couldn't have gotten elected without us (millions of us sending small amounts of money). I expect that he will be mindful of that when we make our voices heard. Which is why I am making sure that mine is in the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 10:44 AM

"Last time I heard there were about 220 detainees....."
Can't suggest an actual number (secret) but don't forget those who are shipped out for 'special rendition' to countries not so fussy about the methods used.
The almost certainly pass through my local airport (Shannon) on their way to such destinations, to the eternal shame of the Irish Government.
Still waiting for a positive response to the Gaza massacres - but won't hold my breath.
We live with the thought that he can't possibly be as bad as the last pres........ or can he?????
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 10:20 AM

Well done Carol....there's hope for America while you're around!

He did not re-define America's position on torture.
His spokesmen say that his administration will prevent charges being brought against CIA torturers; and Mr Obama has issued executive orders, under which the CIA still retain authority to "render" prisoners,(the secret abduction and transfer of prisoners to foreign countries which support the USA.)

"One solution for dealing with Guantanamo detainees upon its closure, as ordered by President Obama to occur within a year, would be to render them to foreign governments to be held in prisons there, or possibly transfer to other U.S. military detention centers, such as at Bagram Air Force base in Afghanistan, where court rulings such as the Supreme Court's restoration of habeas corpus do not apply."(NYT)

Ethics??? don't make me laugh....he's a politician isn't he?....Ake I posted this some time ago to deafening silence from the Obama "liberals"

BHSC.....I wish you would look a bit deeper......they all "condemn"
torture!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 10:15 AM

I can't take responsibility for what Obama does. I can only take responsibility for what I do (or don't do). And if I don't do anything, when I have the ability to do something (like writing letters and posting threads), then I am a part of the problem and not the solution.

As I said, some people might want to write to Obama, and some might not. But if people don't bring these kinds of issues out in the open, nobody will have any opportunity to decide for themselves which approach they prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: pdq
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 10:09 AM

"There are literally THOUSANDS of these cases to be reviewed, and they are reviewing them."

Thousands of "cases" at Guantanamo???

Last time I heard there were about 220 detainees, perhaps 20 or so had been told they could go home but refused, citing the probability of being arrested or killed by the ruling party at home.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 09:56 AM

Remember not so long ago I pointed out that the presidential intelligence briefings might start to influence the new Pres??? And a bunch of Mudcatters ASSURED me that the pres-elect was getting Dubya's briefings? I bet he was! :~)

But--

Did you really think Dubya was getting great briefings, and might Obama be getting different info about now, whether it's "new" or "not"?!?!????

[shaking head]

See Chicago politics primer in the Burris thread.

I know we all WANT Obama to keep all his campaign promises, and to be the new messiah the place needs-- but executive orders can cut both way, you know.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:52 AM

Well, everyone's entitled to their opinion. Including me. I think our attention to this particular matter is justified. Other people may see things differently. They are, of course, free to not write any letters to Obama. I'm glad I wrote (and sent) mine.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: bald headed step child
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:19 AM

I'm not saying that you personally are condemning him, but the article you posted makes some pretty strong allegations.

One thing to remember is Bush ain't in charge here anymore, and his buddy Blair ain't in charge in the UK anymore.

I think the current administrations in both countries already know what is expected in this area, and are doing what they can be reasonably expected to do.

"Holding his feet to the fire" might be something to do if he wasn't doing anything, but he is.

I don't think we need to set him on fire just yet, that's all.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:05 AM

And by the way, this part...

"It's up to us to make sure he knows what we expect of him."


This is what he has told us he expects of us

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 01:02 AM

I don't know why anyone would characterize what I am doing as "condemning" Obama because of this. That's a very bizarre way to characterize someone writing a letter for the purpose of making a request.

He's our president and he represents us. It's up to us to make sure he knows what we expect of him.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM

BHSC, thanks for a reasonable voice. I suspect you are on the right track on this issue.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: bald headed step child
Date: 22 Feb 09 - 12:08 AM

He asked that the information not be released at this time. That does not mean it can't be reversed later.

He has people investigating and when they are finished with the investigation, we'll see what happens.

It would be STUPID for him to just start making policy changes without finding out first what the real story is, and I'm not about to start condemning him over one article written by one person whose agenda I do not know.

There are literally THOUSANDS of these cases to be reviewed, and they are reviewing them.

I don't believe the Bush administration is going to get away with what they have done. If we don't do anything, I think the war crimes tribunal at the Hague will.

It's not going to happen overnight though.

Obama has more crap on his plate than any President in the history of this country, and I hate to tell you, he has no magic wand.

Give the man a friggin chance.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:47 PM

If he hadn't done anything at all, I would be prepared to give him time to sort it out. But he has done something. He actively upheld Bush's policy on preventing Mohamed's lawyers from having access to the facts of the case, and he upheld Bush's threat against the UK if it disclosed this information.

I think Obama's a good president overall. But we're going to have to hold his feet to the fire from time to time. I think this may be one of those times.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: bald headed step child
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 11:08 PM

The article paints a grim picture, but let's put things in perspective.

From what I've heard on the subject, I don't believe Obama is supporting Bush's policy here. I think it is more likely he might have asked the UK to hold off awhile til things can be sorted out.

I mean s%$#, the guy's been in office 29 days.

Give him a chance. He's stated he doesn't support torture, and members of both houses are calling for investigations.

These things don't get solved overnight.

There are people working on Guantanamo and the Iraq prisons to get people released and find out what has happened to them.

It takes time.

BHSC

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:21 PM

I'm hoping he'll hear from other people besides me. One email on a particular subject probably won't get noticed, but multiple emails (or letters) might.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Amos
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:20 PM

Carol:

Thanks for bringing the letter up, and for your letter to President Obama. I hope to hear he answers it genuinely, although I realize how unlikely that is in the general scheme of things.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Peace
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:09 PM

Good one, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Janie
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:09 PM

What Ebbie said.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:05 PM

Great letter, Carol C.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 10:03 PM

This is the email I sent...

Dear President Obama,

I voted for you, and I campaigned for you, both in the primaries and in the general election. I am very disappointed to read about your stance on the torture of Binyam Mohamed and not allowing his attorneys to have the facts of the case to use in his defense. I am especially disappointed that you would uphold President Bush's threat against the UK government to withhold intelligence that would protect civilians in that country if they provided Mohamed's lawyers with evidence of his torture at the hands of the US government.

If you have already corrected this stance, please disregard this message. If you have not, I request that you do so now. This man has a right to a proper defense. We do not allow confessions obtained by torture to be used to convict people.

We did not elect you to protect people in the previous administration who violated the law. We especially did not elect you to do this at the expense of peoples' civil liberties.

Please do not let us down, President Obama. We elected you to uphold the laws that the previous administration so flagrantly violated.

Subject: BS: Obama and Torture
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Feb 09 - 09:50 PM

I find this very disappointing. The article is fairly long, but it's worth reading the whole thing. I'm going to send him an email and request some answers...

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/02/19/exceptionalism/index.html