 sj |
||
|
||
BS: No More Corvair Bashing...
|
|
|
Subject: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bobert Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:18 PM Seems that the "Pontiac" thread has become a dumping grounds for the Corvair... That's a bad thing... Plus, the Corvair was a good car... Not perfect, but good... So ya'll quit dumpin' on the Corvair, por favor... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:23 PM Get me the testimonial from Ralph Nader...er, I mean the testimony. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:29 PM I haven't bashed a Corvair in years. Haven't seen one in years, for that matter. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bill D Date: 23 Feb 09 - 09:30 PM Hey! I waited till others had drifted the thread thoroughly! Hummmpff |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: dick greenhaus Date: 23 Feb 09 - 10:45 PM The odd thing about the Corvair and Nader is that the model he bashed wasn't a bad little car. The later model had oversized tires, hydroplaned uncontrollably if you touchrd the brakes after a heavy dew and was totally ignored by Nader. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Peace Date: 24 Feb 09 - 12:17 AM The Corvair was a piece of-- oops, just read the title of this thread. Nice car to drive. Don't go over 30 mph and don't corner fast. And don't put it in third. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: EBarnacle Date: 24 Feb 09 - 10:45 AM Obviously, Peace, you have never driven a turbo corsa. They were great cars. My personal experience with them was ice racing in New England in the days before studs were legal for racing. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:14 AM As I remember Nader, he was good at condemning perfectly good products. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Midchuck Date: 24 Feb 09 - 01:04 PM Nader was, in one real sense, responsible for us having Bush II for 8 years. He took just enough votes from the Dems in '00 to throw it into the courts. So you need to balance the lives saved by getting the Corvair off the market against those lost in Iraq. It seems to me. P. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: JohnInKansas Date: 24 Feb 09 - 01:11 PM The disgusting thing about Nader's bashing of the Corvair is that just prior to his book on it ("Unsafe At Any Speed" I think it was) he published another blast at the entire US auto industry for building cars that where "sluggish" in their handling and "not responsive like the "european ones." Then the Corvair comes out with a slightly lower oversteer-transition speed (the most fundamental difference between "responsive" and "sluggish" in tech terms) and he completely reverses the argument to claim that makes it unsafe. Of course the man who never had a drivers license is the one whose opinon about auto safety should be respected ... And he has so many great ideas about other stuff too. One wonders if he's ever bought a house, sent his kids to school, or paid his taxes. (Or actually done useful work for a paycheck.) John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Feb 09 - 02:48 PM When I first met her, the woman who became my wife owned a Corvair and she loved it. Among other things, whenever it snowed, while other cars were spinning their wheels or laying in the ditch, she was tootling merrily along. When it finally pooped out, her father (a generous man) bought her a Mustang. She liked the Mustang very much, but she was (and still is) a bit nostalgic about the Corvair. Nader also hated the VW bug, another car that lots of people really liked. For what? Like the Corvair, economy and drivability. Nader was (is) a major twit. It always struck me as interesting that the Great Guru of Automobile Safety bragged that he didn't own an automobile and, indeed, didn't even have a drivers license. Like the Pope giving marital advice. . . . Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: dick greenhaus Date: 24 Feb 09 - 05:26 PM Very few people dislike Ralph Nader more than I do, but he deserves credit for a tremendous breakthrough: he, almost singlehandedly, established the precedent that manufacturers are financially responsible for the safe performance of their products. Aside from that, and it's a big aside, I can't really think of anything useful he accomplished. As far as the old Corvair went, it (like the VW Beetle) suffered from terminal oversteer. If you tried to drive it like you would a Buick, you were apt to find yourself being passed by the rear end of your car. Not a real problem if you knew what you were doing; a serious cause of one-car accidents if you didn't. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:10 PM It is true that if you had just stepped out of a Buick and into a Corvair, you had to be a bit careful until you got the feel of it. But the reverse is also true. There is nothing wrong with the handling of a Corvair or VW bug. They are perfectly controllable and millions of people have driven them without mishap. Just don't try to drive one as if it were a Buick. If you're used to driving an SUV and you find yourself at the wheel of a Honda Civic, you're going to have to pay a bit of attention because the Civic isn't going to handle like a Ford Expedition. I hear a similar style of complaint about small cars, which I like very much for their economy and maneuverability. "They're dangerous! Suppose you get hit by a truck!?" Answer: There's a classic photo of a big, heavy Cadillac being hit broadside by an eighteen-wheeler. There's also an old saying, "The only problem with that car is the nut that holds the wheel." Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bobert Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:36 PM Over-steer, over-smeer... I autocrossed my '66 Corsa and if anything, the front end pushed... That ain't over-steer... Tell ya' what, ya' put about 300 pounds of sand bags in the front of a 'Vair, take it to an autocross and it will eat just about everything else there... Great car... Now as fir Nadar, it is well known that I have voted for the guy several times... Even had a "Nadar for President" sticker on the back of my Corsa in 2000... But he didn't and still don't know jack about cars... I heard that he once had a driving license and that he drove a Studebaker... I rest my case... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Peace Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:47 PM One guides a Studebaker, not drives. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:54 PM "There is nothing wrong with the handling of a Corvair..."??????? This may be true for tricked-out (pimped in todays vernacular) specialty Corvairs, but it certainly was not true for your everyday factory car. See my post on the Pontiac page. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Peace Date: 24 Feb 09 - 07:02 PM I'm with John on this. I don't know whether the newer models--new to me in this case means after 1963--were better. But the 1963 car was tricky. Too much speed and too narrow a wheel base, imo. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Feb 09 - 07:09 PM Well . . . I dunno. Never driven one myself, but Barbara's Corvair was stock and she never had any trouble with its handling. I rode in it quite a bit, and it felt perfectly stable to me. Back to the nut that holds the steering wheel. . . . Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bobert Date: 24 Feb 09 - 07:36 PM The problem with folks is that they have driven way too many cars where the steering wheel is more ausggestion box than something that has alot to do with where you are going... Then ya' give 'um a responsive car and they don't know what to do... Tell ya'll what... Don't ever get in an Indy car 'cause they also go where you steer them and mnot where they want to go... Kinda like what Brucie said about the Studes... I loved autocrossing my Corvair... Handled as well as my old Karmann Ghia mini-stoker... Tight, baby, tight... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Feb 09 - 07:53 PM Steering ratio. Give someone used to a car with a steering wheel that's four-and-a-half turns from lock to lock and put them into something with tighter steering (an MG-TD, say) and unless they take it easy and spend a little time getting familiar with it, they'll be right up the nearest telephone pole. A friend of mine had an MG-TD. Busted an axle. While it was being repaired, he drove his wife's Buick Roadcrusher. We were going somewhere in the Buick, and Ray, pulling out of the parking place, cranked the wheel over and stepped on the accelerator. The various parts of the Buick sent memos to each other, arranged for a meeting sometime in the future, eventually took a vote and decided to go, and lo! the Buick heeled over like the Queen Mary pulling away from the dock and slowly oozed into traffic. Ray heaved a weary sigh and said, "I'll sure be glad when I get my car back!" Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bobert Date: 24 Feb 09 - 08:01 PM Yeah, Don... I have driven the TD and there ain't no forgiveness in the steering... Part of that was because it didn't have much track compared to wheelbase... Narrow... The A-Model MG's were alot more forgiving but still responsive compared to the boats that folks are used to today... Rememeber the Morgans??? They handling just like the TDs... TR-3s, the same... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: JohnInKansas Date: 24 Feb 09 - 11:35 PM Bobert - If it didn't oversteer you just weren't goin' fast enough. (Unless it's a Studebaker, in which case if it did oversteer you were goin' much, much, much too fast.) Any car understeers at low speed, and will try to straighten out if you turn loose of the steering wheel. Any car will oversteer in a turn of a given radius if you're going fast enough, and will "tuck into" the turn if you turn loose. What separates "sluggish" from "maneuverable" is the oversteer transition speed where it swaps modes. If you're going to be a competent (and safe) driver, you need to know where that happens - for the car you're driving; and about the only way to have it not happen is to stick to unicycles. Compared to quite a few dinky cars today, even the Corvair was a little on the sluggish side, but it was somewhat more responsive in the handling department than the average heap of its time. It seems that the majority of the designers of it's era believed that if the nose plowed in hard enough on the turns it would scare the s***t out of the idiots so they'd slow down to where it was safer to be on the road with them. John |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:04 AM I just used sand bags, John, to keep it from plowing... BTW, as you know the reason the car tries to go straight when you take yer hands of the wheel is because of caster set up into the front axle... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Feb 09 - 08:48 AM All of the modern and recent gurus of oversteer as far back as the Beetle, but including the Porsches, are nothing compared to the WW2 Tatras. Hitler complained that they killed more of his officers than the Allied armies. The even bigger problem was the swing axle rear suspension. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 09 - 05:35 PM Well, yeah, Richard... The outside wheel will tuck... The Corviar folks knew that so they put in these dandy bars that ran from the torsion housing to the outside of the axle.. Kinda forms a triangle and when the outside rear wheel tried to tich it met up with this arm that said, "No"... I used to autocross my Karmann Ghia and had some bars just like that, plus a rear stabilizer bar which ran from outside to outside on the axles... That stops the tuck... They worked great and when the Ghia was turned into a mini-stocker I just left 'um there and they did the trick... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: fumblefingers Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:47 AM My mother bought a new 1962 Corvair 4-dr. I drove it and liked it. Hers had a problem with an air or vacuum leak. The mechanics down at the Chevrolet house hated working on it because they didn't know anything about it. They never got it quite right either. The only thing I didn't like about it was there wasn't much room in the back seat for me and my girlfriend. Other than that, it was a good car. I was a 17 yr. old and never wrecked it or even put a dent in it. I never thought it was unsafe at any speed, and I drove it as fast as it would go. I don't think Nader ever drove one or got into the back seat horizonally. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: EBarnacle Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:42 AM There are two kinds of people in this world--those who drive themselves and those who expect others to do the driving. Guess which Nader is. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Big Mick Date: 26 Feb 09 - 12:50 PM Mine was a 1964 Corvair Monza ragtop, 4 on the floor. I wanted a Mustang, but ended up with this. Mom sprang for half, so I had to go with it. So I resigned myself to it, washed it, waxed it, put the top down, and drove over to my girlfriend's house. First thing I notice is that little bugger moved out very well. Next thing I notice is the handling. I pull in the driveway where my gal and her very good looking cousin are standing, and they go ga-ga over it. I'm thinking, "Mick, me old son, you might be OK with this thing". Finding a ski rack for it was a trick, but it handled wonderfully in snow and never got stuck. And it got 30+ miles to the gallon. The problem was the engine. Once they lost their seal, it was a short time to the end. That probably had more to do with me being a shitty mechanic than anything else. I loved mine and would love to have it back. All the best, Mick |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Richard Bridge Date: 26 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM Surely, Bobert, the first three or four years of Corvairs were simple swing axle systems and the semi-trailing arm design did not come in until the Monza (? maybe '66), and those ads about "Did you ever see someone enter a bend talking European and come out talking American" - am I not right? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Bobert Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:16 PM Well, I don't know about the earlier ones, Ricard... My 66 Corsa had those trailing arms and they worked just they way they were supposed to work... But that 'Vair was the only one I ever drove or owned... But I do know that the independent rear wheel suspesion can be a little tricky if you are not familiar with driving cars set up with it... I had a lot of VW's and owned and ran a VW shop for several years and sold read sway bars to just about every customer who brught their car to me for work... I mean, they were cheap and they really did a fine job of keeping the rear camber within safe limits under hard cornering... B~ |
|
Subject: RE: BS: No More Corvair Bashing... From: Don Firth Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:24 PM I think the only beef that Barbara had about her Corvair was that it tended to eat fan belts. She kept a gross of spares in the trunk. No relation to handling. Don Firth |
