BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?

Subject: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:42 PM

Since some object to the implication of "Should we care..." threads, I will bring the stories of deaths that seem to go unnoticed in threads like this. I invite civil discussion of what can be done to lessen these deaths in the future.


"more than 1,000 people have been killed in the first eight weeks of this year, ....also said that 6,290 people were killed last year in drug violence"

....................................................................




AP Interview: Mexico's AG says violence peaking
         
Traci Carl, Associated Press Writer – 22 mins ago AP – Mexico's Federal Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora speaks during an interview with the Associated …

MEXICO CITY – Mexico's federal attorney general said Thursday that more than 1,000 people have been killed in the first eight weeks of this year, but he believes the drug violence is reaching its peak.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora also said that 6,290 people were killed last year in drug violence — the most specific accounting yet of killings that doubled the 2007 toll.

Medina Mora said the world's most powerful drug cartels are "melting down" as they engage in turf wars and fight off a nationwide government crackdown.

The government doesn't expect to stop drug trafficking, but hopes to make it so difficult that smugglers no longer use Mexico as their conduit to the United States, he said: "We want to raise the opportunity cost of our country as a route of choice."

He applauded cross-border efforts to arrest more than 700 Sinaloa cartel members in the United States, but called for more U.S. prosecutions of people who sell weapons illegally to the cartels.

He also would like more U.S. efforts to stop drug profits from flowing south to Mexico: Mexico has spent $6.5 billion over the last two years, on top of its normal public security budget, on the fight against drugs, but that falls short of the $10 billion Mexican drug gangs bring in annually, he said.

Mexico has no choice but to press ahead with its fight, he said, predicting that violence will ease.

"I believe we are reaching the peak," he said, but added that the government won't achieve its objective "until Mexican citizens feel they have achieved tranquility."

While violence in Tijuana is down sharply from last year, killings have spiked in the largest border city, Ciudad Juarez. The city of 1.3 million across from El Paso, Texas, is now the most worrisome of a number of hotspots, Medina Mora said.

"But this is not reflecting the power of these groups," he said "It is reflecting how they are melting down."

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: kendall
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 03:47 PM

And they are getting the weapons from us.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: robomatic
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:09 PM

A lot of this is because a ready market can be found for drugs in this country, it has not been successfully diminished, and provides funds and motivation for extreme violence in a corrupt society.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:22 PM

The obvious answer is to legalize drugs, watch the values plummet, and the gangsters won't be able to buy ammo.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:23 PM

Obama's administration is proposing to reinstate the ban on assault weapons, which are finding their way into the hands of cartelistas south of the border. I am sure some of my respected friends who feel most strongly about the absolute interpretation of the Second Amendment will feel upset that such a thing should recur in America; personally, I am not excited about living in a country where I can imagine needing an assault weapon and would rather work to avoid the need than defend the extreme solution of privately owning one of these mayhem-wreakers.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 04:29 PM

Amos,

Assult weapons ( as in fully automatic) are already banned- it is the semi-automatic "look-a-likes" (without the firepower) that the administration is trying to ban.

And how do additional laws help? Are not drugs ALREADY illegal?



Too many are being killed- either legalization OR enforcement (within the US, to destroy the market ) is required, yet we have neither.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: GUEST,Sorcha
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

"If not, why do we not have an uprising by all Moslem's ... "

I suppose for the same reason we didn't have an uprising by all Christians in the US to expose Timothy McVeigh, or the Unabomber, or the Manson Family, or ...

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

A semi-automatic assault weapon is hardly without fire-power, Bruce.

Unless my house was being assaulted by raving hordes of diappointed CEOs, I doubt I would need even a semi-automatic weapon. I have a shotgun, which is sufficient for any purposes I can realistically envision.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:31 PM

"A semi-automatic assault weapon "

No such thing. An Assault rifle is an automatic weapon, by definition.

I fail to see how a handgrip and a bayonet lug makes it so much more dangerous, yet THAT would qualify a gun to be banned under the proposed legislation.

You think that criminals can't duct-tape a knife onto the end of a stick?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:40 PM

Sorry to interrupt -

I was in Oaxaca a few years back where I had a bizarre and enlightening time.

One of the many wierd things about my stay was my nightly visit to the Zocolo (the main square in the city centre).

This square was surrounded on three sides by restaurants and cafes and on the fourth side by the state executives offices.

A band of farmers from the surrounding hills had set up camp there opposite the government building, and had chickens, goats ad other basic means of sustenance tethered by their tents (canvas sheets, more like awnings, held up by poles).

They had arrived the same day I did and as I passed through their number on the way to my accomodation, as they reached the end of their march and began planting their banners where their camp was about to be pitched, I asked what they were demonstrating about.

The answer seemed reasonable - we have come to ask that something be done to stop the local corrupt police/militia from coming up into the hills and killing us.

It was obviously much safer living under a tarpaulin in the centre of a busy city.

A few days later, a massive demonstration swept like a river down a main road I was using, which stretched as far as the eye could see in both directions. The protestors were carrying placards bearing photos of political opponents of the local administration who had been murdered to make the job of corrupt government a little less complicated.

Later, in Puerto Escondido, further south, I met some Italian tourists who had had all their money and passports taken by armed cocaine dealers, who had first asked if they wanted to buy cocaine, then opted for a more convenient way of making money.

I was glad not to have suffered the fate of the Italians, but it seems that life is pretty cheap in Mexico if you are poor, regardless of which power you cross.

I never followed up on any of what I saw, but the images stay fixed in my mind.

Bruce, In my opinion, the solution in mexico requires serious anti corruption efforts. I suspect the dealers and the government have a working relationship of sorts.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:46 PM

Endlessly: Criminals, by definition, will always gain the means to perpetrate their crimes. It's what they do. It is insane to disarm the citizenry.

Anyone who buys, distribute, or uses illegal drugs is, in a very true sense, a traitor and an enemy to his country as that person perpetuates the violence and death and public disorder.

Legalizing dangerous drugs does not work, That little experiment in Holland fizzled, to that country's detriment. It doesn't bear repeating.

People of shared moral values who put family, neighbor and country ahead of self are the answer to anarchy, to drug-fueled anarchy! If you ARE an anarchist, sorry, I can't help you. You are ANTI-social.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 05:50 PM

Lox,

When I visited Oaxaca, back in the mid 70's, the police were armed with machine guns, and we were warned not to go outside town after dark.

Of course, since we came into Mexico on a visa issued in Washington, DC, we had no problems at all.


And that was when the peso was 12 cents, and a real silver coin.


The poverty of the people that I saw, compared to the wealth of the upper class, gave me a view of where we might be headed. IMO, the lack of a strong middle class, and oppurtunity for the poor to advance into it, have provided a situation that will eventually blow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM

Maybe - maybe its just the same age old disparity and it will carry on forever, pausing only to let each successive generation of pigs take over the farm.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:01 PM

WARNING: Cut and Paste follows- people hiding heads in sand should not read.


.................................................................
AP: Mexican President rejects 'failed state' label
         
Traci Carl, Associated Press Writer – 36 mins ago AP – Mexico's Federal Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora speaks during an interview with the Associated …

MEXICO CITY – President Felipe Calderon on Thursday rejected U.S. concerns that Mexico is losing control of its territory to drug cartels.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Calderon said his government has not "lost any part — any single part — of the Mexican territory" to organized crime. He also called "absolutely false" the idea that Mexico is in danger of becoming a failed state if the violence continues.

That concern has been a major topic of discussion in Mexico and along the U.S. border since the U.S. military first raised it in November. The Pentagon report on potential future threats singled out Mexico and Pakistan as countries where state control is at risk.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090226/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/lt_mexico_drug_battle

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:08 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 06:15 PM

Hmmm

I'd be curious to read any comments from catters on a thread entitled "what is the solution to the problem fo Taleban hiding out in Pakistan?"

Of course that title would have to be abbreviated considerably ...

A destabilized Pakistan is a much more serious prospect altogether.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:20 PM

We are seriously thinking of buying a retirement abode down in state Jalisco Mexico. They are trying in earnest to control the drug cartels. Over a 1000 Mexican military have lost their lives in the last year trying to put a stop to this drug violence.

IMHO Kendall's statement is correct ... The U.S. sells the weapons to the Mexican Cartels ... the Cartels in turn makes a very large amount of $$dollars$$ from the never ending thirsty demand for the drugs up in the U.S. and Canada. As long as this market exists, the gangsters will thrive unfortunately.

So ... should we care ... yes, because our drug tolerant society is partly responsible for this shameful violence.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:37 PM

"Do we notice dead Mexicans?"


             Only if they're laying around in the street!

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:40 PM

Unfortunately we don't even notice our own dead and half dead addicts lying in the street.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 07:51 PM

thinking of buying a retirement abode down in state Jalisco Mexico ...

My understanding from previous small flaps about retiring in Mexico is that you must be a Mexican citizen in order to own property. Foreigners can only lease a place; and a few years back many retirees found their leases "forcibly vacated" (no refunds) when local businesses decided they wanted the property "for other purposes."

Mexico has lacked a reliable system for ownership of property of any kind for a very long time, and with almost built-in corruption throughout all their legal systems, among things lacking is the ability of the poor or middle class to "own" something in any provable way. If someone richer wants it, you lose it since the "courts" will uphold the claim that the rich already owned it.

The 6,000 or so drug murders last year came on the heels of a lament that one province had more than 500 murders of women, with many of the cases nearing the expiration of the statute of limitations with none solved. (Yes, Mexico has a statute of limitations on MURDER.)

Newpaper and media workers are under threat of death even for reporting anything "negative" about the drug cartels (or even about some "successful busines persons").

There is evidence that some are attempting to clean things up; but there seems to be no office in Mexico where one is immune to being shot on the street, if someone else is "offended."

And it is spilling across the border into the US.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:19 PM

Canadians / Americans can buy property in Mexico ... there are restrictions on foreigners buying coastal property though ... you also have to prove that you do have certain amount of income.

As per per corruption ... well, are not the canadian / U.S. governments corrupt and inept in many ways ... it's easier to point the finger at a poorer nation ... the richer ones just package their corruption and dysfunctional processes in a more deceptive wrapping.

As per the statement .. "among things lacking is the ability of the poor or middle class to "own" something in any provable way. If someone richer wants it, you lose it since the "courts" will uphold the claim that the rich already owned it." ... whoa there buddy ... this kind of stuff happens all the time in the U.S. and Canada ... I have even witnessed here in good old New Brunswick where the powerful can easily kick you off paying a minimum value for your land.

I will not argue the violence of these cartels ... but there is a big flow of money coming from above the Mexican border fueling the brutality if these mobsters. These guys will do anything retain their their greed for $money$.

yes ... it is spilling across the border ... whey wouldn't it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: pdq
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 08:54 PM

You hear lots of opinions on the ability of foreign nationals to buy land in Mexico.

As far as I can tell, unless you are a Mexican citizen, you are prohibited from owning land that is less than 100 kilometers from am a national border and 50 kilometers from the coast. That is actuallly 64 miles and 32 miles respectively.

The "100 year lease" is actually two "50 years leases" with automatic renewal. Since the present lease system is (correct me if I am wrong) less than 50 years old and no "automatic renewal" has yet been done, it really does not exist (yet).

Buy land in Mexico? Get your head examined. A shrink may be expensive but will save you big bucks in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 09:02 PM

Not 100 .... it's 50.

"Buy land in Mexico? Get your head examined."

Buy land in the U.S. ... well .... :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:34 PM

biLL - Yes, you're right that we don't pay attention to people decimated by American culture. Why, I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 10:53 PM

Like the in the U.S. and Canada not all the streets are dangerous to walk through ... and like many towns in the U.S.and Canada they are populated by fine human beings .... below is a link to prove it

3 amogos

Yes ... we should notice dead Mexicans

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:00 PM

Frankly, I don't think many of us do!

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Amos
Date: 26 Feb 09 - 11:25 PM

You can buy land in Jalisco. It is well removed from the coastline. There are restrictions on ownership of coastal land. In addition the stable income is a qualification for a residential visa, which allows you to live in Mexico indefinitely and also work there, I believe. There is nothing insane about it--thousands of Americans around Gudalajara, Medina, Veracruz own houses and live on their Social Security or retirement savings in better style than they possibly could stateside. But there are many ins and outs to learn about the lifestyle. I met plenty of Americans who had managed them successfully int he year I lived outside of Guadalajara.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: CamiSu
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 12:48 AM

I'm not always certain we notice dead anybodies! I still wince when I hear x number of people were killed and y Americans... They are all PEOPLE! And, yes we are sending the guns down there and so many could be stopped at the border, if the crossing police checked the cars going south, (with small #'s of guns to avoid detection,) AND if dealers would not sell to people who are ignorant of what they are buying and pay in cash--2 major tip-offs that people are buying for the cartels and gangs. We should particularly notice the dead when we are primarily responsible for the situation that causes the deaths.

CamiSu

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 07:22 AM

"The radio said, they're just deportees"

Woody Guthrie.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Feb 09 - 01:23 PM

Gun emporia in the four border states are the major suppliers of guns to the Mexican gangs. There are more than 6600 dealers, too many to police properly.
See NY Times editorial, "The Drug Cartels' Right to Bear Arms," Feb 27, 2009.
http://nytimes.com/2009/02/27/opinion/27fri3.html?_r=1&th&emc=th

Art. 27 of the Mexican Constitution sets out the regulations on land ownership and leasing to foreigners. One provision is that the Mexican States can vary the rules; see post by Amos, above.
Leases originally were for 30 years, now extended to 50, and renewable. As Amos says financial stability is necessary, and a trust established with a Mexican financial institution.
In addition to sites mentioned by Amos, the old silver towns are popular with foreigners because of the fine climate at a few thousand feet in altitude. As well as Americans, many UK and EU citizens have settled in Mexico.

Years ago, Vera Cruz was very popular with tourists before the west coast got the publicity and the big tourist hotels. A fine old city, and cheaper now than the west coast for expatriates.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:03 AM

"There is nothing insane about it--thousands of Americans around Gudalajara, Medina, Veracruz own houses and live..."

                I wonder, how long will it be before the drug wars spill over into these areas?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 10:40 AM

Drug Gangs Drive off Cops, Terrorize Mexican Town

Since police quit, Mexican town defenseless against the terror of drug gangs


By JULIE WATSON Associated Press Writer
VILLA AHUMADA, Mexico February 17, 2009 (AP) The Associated Press

"For people caught inside Mexico's drug corridors, life is about keeping your head down and watching your back, especially when the sun dips behind the cactus-studded horizon.

No town knows this better than Villa Ahumada, where the entire police force quit after 70 cartel hit men roared through last spring, killing the police chief, two officers and three townspeople.

Residents were left defenseless again last week when gunmen returned and kidnapped nine people, despite the soldiers manning checkpoints far outside town.

"This was a mellow town where we would walk along main street at night. But now we're too scared to even go out," said Zaida de Santiago.

For this lanky 14-year-old, everything changed last May 17. She was dancing at a neighbor's ranch when gunfire shattered the night. The party's hosts turned off the lights and silenced the music. The guests stood frozen, ears trained to the sound of automatic weapons as the gunmen raced down gravel streets in their SUVs.

When the sun rose hours later, the party guests learned that armed cartel commandos had killed the police chief and five others. Soon after, the rest of the 20-member force quit in fear.

"That day will always remain burned in my mind," Santiago said.

Federal investigators say Villa Ahumada is a key stop along one of Mexico's busiest drug smuggling routes, where the Sinaloa cartel has been challenging the Juarez gang for control. The military staffs checkpoints miles outside town, and soldiers and federal police roll through each day, but residents are largely left on their own.

Sliced by a railroad and the Pan-American Highway heading straight to the U.S. border, the town is one of many outposts across Mexico — many of them too small to appear on maps — that cartels need to dominate in order to ensure passage of their U.S.-bound loads of marijuana and cocaine. The town of 15,000 is about 80 miles south of El Paso, Texas..."

             more here

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:24 AM

Whew ... scarry stuff pdq ... sounds like Vancouver, L.A., New Orleans Montreal (a few years ago when the Rock Machine bike club controlled the city).

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:35 AM

To be fair, the problems on the US border with Mexico are not new. I was there in parts of Arizona and Texas many years ago and saw things "first hand". Ain't pretty.

It isn't limited to the border anymore. The police chief of Union City, California, was assasinated by Mexican street gang thugs. That is a middle class town in the SF Bay Area, probably 500 miles north of Tijuana.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:39 AM

No it aint pretty pdq ... this whole drug business f@*k fest brings to mind the movie "No Country for Old Men".

Nothing can stop it. Just way too much money feeding human's lust for greed.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 11:52 AM

"I wonder, how long will it be before the drug wars spill over into these areas"

In regards to that question Rig ... wherever there are large populations of gringos with money to spend on hedonistic pleasures there will be drug wars for distribution rights.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 12:15 PM

I suspect you're right, number 6, but there is a way to stop the violence. All you have to do is legalize drugs. We don't have people running around in Pierce-Arrows shooting at each other with Thompsons in Chicago any more, sice we lifted prohibition.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: number 6
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 01:48 PM

I agree with ya all the way Rig.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 03:12 PM

In Calgary, drug shootouts have killed at least one bystander; I haven't checked into the number of drug gang members killed. These dealers are citizens of Canada, not Mexican; many are Asian in origin. The same thing is happening in most cities across the U. S. and Canada; home-grown gangs and citizens, not illegals. Nothing on the scale of Mexico, but appalling just the same.

Increasing amounts of drugs are made in dangerous labs in homes and business tracts.

Our drug laws are designed to make drug suppliers rich and continue the carnage. Legalizing, followed by setting up effective treatment and education centers, would be a first, important step.

Effective treatment of addicts in a joke in many areas, where incarceration in prison is the main prescription.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Feb 09 - 09:11 PM

That's got to be the stupidest part of it, Q. At least in my opinion. The American tax payer forks over millions and millions of dollars a year to keep drug users locked up, when they aren't a threat to anyone else, and with treatment could be doing something constructive.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 02:23 PM

I keep hearing "legalize drugs" and the drug dealers will cease to exist.

They are criminals that are currently engaged in selling illegal drugs because it is very profitable.

If they cannot make large amounts of money dealing drugs they will find some other criminal activity to enrich themselves with like theft, kidnapping etc.

Then what? Legalize burglary? Legalize kidnapping?

Criminal activity must be dealt with by the law, not by the false logic of legalizing crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:00 PM

Sawzaw is confusing the issue as usual.

Burglary, etc. are contrary to the codes (ten commandments, etc.) that people follow in order to live together.

Prohibition of liquor was a failure, drug prohibition also is a failure.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Ebbie
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 03:10 PM

I don't do illegal drugs although I do have my drugs of choice: coffee, music, food.

I think that legalizing at least some drugs and near-drugs deserves a serious look.

Marijuana, for instance. It would be hard to make a case for it being a menace to society. Smoke a toke and you're not going home to beat your wife and babies; the same cannot generally be said of alcohol.

And yet, alcohol is legal; regulated and heavily taxed, true, but it is still a killer that is accepted by law and in society.

Chasing the will-o-wisps of drug trafficking has not been shown to be a great success, because there is no way the law can catch up, much less keep up, with the Medusa of drug users.

Take away one of the legs of the stool and see what happens. That's all I'm sayin'.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: kendall
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 08:54 PM

When I attended the U.S. Treasury Dept. school of law enforcement and criminal investigation one of the things the instructor was very firm on was, "Organized crime can not exist where it is not wanted." It was a thinly veiled comment about crooked officials.

As long as the cops are as crooked as the drug dealers there will be violence, and drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 09:19 PM

That also can be read as meaning the people who buy the drugs. If the demand is there, law enforcement can only harrass, never shutting it down.

An unimportant example of this is the market for Cuban cigars. I had no trouble getting them on assignments in the States. (They are, of course, legal in Canada).
I quit smoking years ago, so this is one expense I no longer have. The conduit I remember was from Cuba to Venezuela or Mexico, then to offshore oil rigs owned by U. S. companies and they by helicopter or supply boat to the mainland.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 09:52 PM

"Prohibition of liquor was a failure"

That is true but when prohibition was repealed, did the gangsters who did the bootlegging and murdering go legit, operate breweries and distilleries and start teaching Sunday school?

Try some drug free logic for a change.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:20 PM

Many of them went into the labor unions.
(Common belief, but I am unable to quote statistics)

Most bootleggers I knew, in the dry days in Oklahoma, were good church-going citizens, who performed a service appreciated by all who liked their dram. I had one as a next-door neighbor.

A childhood memory, from the Prohibition 1930s before repeal, I remember them delivering Canadian goodies (this was in New Mexico, a long way from the border). Hell, the Elks Club would have been dead without their regular deliveries. Canadian Club was the big seller. At home, a dead Victrola (horn behind the gauze removed) was the storage cabinet.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 10:42 PM

"That is true but when prohibition was repealed, did the gangsters who did the bootlegging and murdering go legit,..."


               No, they went into drug dealing. It was the business opportunity the government left open to them. And the G-men who were chasing them, the government didn't want to lay them off in the middle of a depression, so they made drug enforcement officers out of them. Otherwise, they would have simpy made drugs legal then.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Mar 09 - 11:01 PM

The military also got into the act, and asked that marijuana be prohibited.
The American Medical Assn. objected to the passage of the Marijuana Tax Act in 1937, which prohibited hemp farming.

In 1992, 330,000 arrests for cannabis possession. Dunno current figures.

I saw figures that marijuana was a major crop in some states and provinces; it grows well in much of North America. Here in Calgary, it is grown commercially under lights. Lots of busts, but the growers (who have rented the house) just disappear, a paid tender arrested.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we notice dead Mexicans?
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Mar 09 - 01:57 AM

" No, they went into drug dealing. It was the business opportunity the government left open to them. And the G-men who were chasing them, the government didn't want to lay them off in the middle of a depression, so they made drug enforcement officers out of them. Otherwise, they would have simpy made drugs legal then."

Creative history at work.

They went into illegal gambling, loansharking, labor racketeering, hijacking trucks, protection.

What does his Majesty Mr Chavez and his Excellency, Fidel think about drugs?

They are such great, benevolent shepherds of their common folk in a workers paradise. So down on the rich evil minions of capitalism. Surely they would not deny their loyal subjects the simple pleasures of some dope every so often would they?