breakneck speed and Irish Music

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 17 - 09:48 AM

big difference between playing traditional music and being a traditional musician- one to ponder, eight years on?

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: mayomick
Date: 10 Mar 09 - 06:24 AM

Many old "hot" jazz purists hailed the arrival of rock n roll as a reassertion of the roots of the music against the "cool" of modern
jazz . Chuck Berry's Rock n Rolling Music :

I have no kick against modern jazz
Unless they try to play it too darn fast
And change the beauty of the melody etc

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 07:28 PM

I suspect it's due to a stage of musical development between learning to play an instrument and being a musician.

It has to be a signicant contributary factor. Musicianship is as much about knowing when not to do all these wonderful tricks that we learn as it is about doing them. The same principle can be applied to ornamentation and dynamics. Restraint and self-awareness usually take longer to master than digital dexterity, particularly in an untrained musician.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:18 PM

the syndrome, of course, isn't restricted to Irish music--bluegrass and Old-Timey stuff also suffers from over speeding.I suspect it's due to a stage of musical development between learning to play an instrument and being a musician.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: meself
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 04:14 PM

I can remember a time when it took at least a good sixty seconds to play the Minute Waltz. With all these steroid-popping pianists nowadays, fifty-six seconds is considered slow ...

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:21 PM

I should modify my last point to read:

"This phrase seems to support the idea that the dance, like some flamenco, 'could' occur without music."

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: mayomick
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 02:10 PM

Pantomimic dances were accompanied by music, Lox -The Planting Stick, The Butchers'March ,Droghedy's March etc .


Writing in 1944 in the first chapter of A Handbook of Irish Dances, the authors O'Keefe and O'Brien have this to say under the heading Modern Dance :

"Generally speaking ,step-dances are danced much quicker than they should be.No dance ,no matter how accurately the step may be performed or the time marked, can possibly look beautiful if it is danced -as frequently happens - twice as rapidly as it should be."

At no stage do O'Keefe and O' Brien blame the musicians for playing too quickly .Their criticism is levelled at the dancers alone( If musicians were paid to go slower at the time they surely would have done !)

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 09:22 PM

Thanks for the information Lox.

It seems to me that some of the problem concerning speed at sessions could be due to the fact that some instruments are inherently or potentially faster than others. I mean no offence to anyone here, but if one were to 'race', say, a whistle, a fiddle and a concertina, the whistle would win every time. I'm sorry to put it in such an irreverent way and I hope it illustrates my point adequately.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:48 PM

This phrase seems to support the idea that the dance, like some flamenco, did occur without music.

"contemporary literary references suggest that jigs were fast pantomimic dances for one or more soloists with lively rhythms created by virtuoso footwork,"

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:38 PM

And finally

1. Etymology and origin.

The various words for the dance form known as the jig or gigue have rather confused histories that in turn have led to confusion about the origins of the musical form. In French, Italian and German, the word seems to be derived from a medieval word for fiddle (as in Dante, Paradiso, xiv.110: 'E come giga ed arpa in tempratesa, Di molte corde, fan dolce tintinno'), a word also used to refer to the musician who played such a fiddle (see Gigue (ii)). The usage survives in modern German as Geige (violin), a survival that has contributed most to past uncertainty about the gigue's origin. It is now believed that if the English word came from the Continent, it came not from gigue or fiddle but rather from the verb 'giguer', to frolic, leap or gambol. Although no choreographies have survived for the 16th-century jig, contemporary literary references suggest that jigs were fast pantomimic dances for one or more soloists with lively rhythms created by virtuoso footwork, and that they were somewhat bawdy (Shakespeare, Much Ado about Nothing, Act 2 scene i: 'Wooing is hot and hasty like a Scottish jigge'). Dean-Smith pointed out that the word 'jig' may have derived from slang in a manner similar to the more recent evolution of the word 'jazz', becoming a generic term encompassing many forms of non-aristocratic music and dance. As with the first American meaning of the slang 'jass', most 16th-century connotations of the English word 'jig' were vulgar.


So there you have it.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:34 PM

From the same source ...

jig.

(1) A traditional dance of the British Isles, probably dating back to the 15th century. The word may be derived from the Old French verb gigner ('to leap', 'to gambol'). It is characterized by lively jumping steps, the only common feature of its many varieties. The best-known jig is the Irish, danced solo or by a couple to the accompaniment of the pipe and fiddle and usually in compound duple or triple time. The jig appears in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book and other contemporary keyboard collections, with examples by Byrd, Bull, and Farnaby. Shakespeare mentioned the 'Scotch jig' in Much Ado about Nothing. See also gigue.

(2) From the 16th century to the 18th, the jig (or jigg) was also an often bawdy farce in rhyme, sung and danced to popular tunes, performed both in England and on the Continent.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 05:32 PM

Pip - you are right that I should rely on more than just half heard utterances so I will retract that point and offer something else instead.

I have just been to oxford music online (the new name for the online new grove dictionary of music and musicians) and would provide a link to the relevant pages but for the fact that you must have a password to view it, so I hope it proves useful and not annoying that I am cutting and pasting onto this page instead.

Perhaps Joe or Mick would like to check the legality of this so Max doesn't get in trouble.

Here is the first instalment.

"Jig.

Term used for several types of dance originating in the British Isles. The origin of the word is problematic; when used in connection with dance it may derive from Old French giguer ('to leap' or 'to gambol'). It contains the idea of a vigorous up and down movement, of which the dance is expressive. This is particularly true of the male solo dance; thus the English during the time of Elizabeth I described a Scottish jig as 'full of leapings' (J. Florio: A Worlde of Words, London, 1598) after the performance of the Scottish lords. This aristocratic form is distinct from the form resembling the hornpipe (see Hornpipe (ii)) and is a variety of 'stepping': beating out intricate movements with the feet (usually, but not always, without movement of the body and arms). Although prevalent in the north of England the form of stepping identified in the jig has become associated particularly with Ireland, and has spread from both countries, through traders and immigrants, to the USA and Canada. Differing from this form of stepping, but somewhat resembling the Scottish form popularly regarded as 'highland dancing', are the 'pater-o-pee' and the morris jig. A fourth type is the scurrilous song and dance act or farce-jig developed in the late 16th century (see Jigg). Country dances called jigs in Playford's Dancing Master are figured dances of geometrical form but their tunes may, in some instances, derive from farce-jigs: for instance Nobody's Jig is the tune of the farce-jig Pickelherring, and Kemp's Jig is a variant of Rowland, the most famous of all farce-jigs performed by Will Kemp and the Earl of Leicester's players.

Until the early 19th century the terms jig, hornpipe and reel were used interchangeably, as none of them was a distinct form in either style or rhythm. The Scottish association continued in what was known as 'Scots measure' (2/4 as distinct from 3/2); similar dances for two male soloists were known as jigs in central Scotland, as strathspeys in northern Scotland and as Cumberlands south of the Scottish border where, as in Ireland, the two soloists were often of opposite sex, the woman's performance being the more subdued. By the end of the 17th century, however, the jig, although undefined, was associated with Ireland; and Tom d'Urfey's Choice New Songs (London, 1684) contains A Scotch Song made to the Irish Jigg. With the invention of infinite steps and tunes the jig (again, like the hornpipe) was taken up by the dancing schools in the 18th and 19th centuries and fostered by competitions and championships, evolving into a distinct form of stepping and acquiring the terminology of single and double jig, hop jig, slip jig and set-dance, each having its own measures.

Irish jig tunes, sometimes known as 'ports', can be either regular or irregular in structure and are played in 'double time': that is, each section is repeated. Regular jigs consist of two eight-bar sections; irregular tunes have sections of unequal length and are employed in set-dances, each dance having its own name and movement figures. Single and double jigs are in 6/8 time, the single jig containing two crotchet-quaver groups in each bar, the double jig containing two groups of triplets. Slip (or hop) jigs are in 9/8 time, each bar consisting of three groups of triplets. Single and double jigs are danced solo or with a partner of the opposite sex, as in those dances called Cumberlands; slip jigs, in which stepping is alternated with a promenade, as in the reel, are performed by couples dancing independently of other couples. Country dances ('long-dances' or 'rounds') for mixed couples are not termed step-dances, although they may employ jig steps and tunes in jig (or hornpipe, or reel) time. Music is usually provided by the union pipes or fiddle, but tunes called jigs (in 6/8 time in two regular eight-bar sections) are found among harp compositions by Carolan (1670–1738) and are regarded by some as imitations of Corelli's gigas (see Ireland, §II, 5 and exx.1–3).

A similar but less elaborate form of stepping is found in the northern counties of England in solo clog dancing, of which tap-dancing is a stage variant. It is most commonly performed solo, and more often by men than by women. The posture of the body differs from the Irish rigidity, the arms being somewhat raised and the head and body tilted forward to preserve balance. Stepping in a stationary position is also executed in the 'rapper' sword dances of Durham and Northumberland. In rural areas of the Midlands and southern counties of England there is a form of jig sometimes called 'pater-o-pee' (a word, possibly 'franglais', descriptive of the light patting of the foot on the ground) which has some resemblance to the Scottish broad-sword dance. The rhythm is stepped over crossed whips, flails, sticks or churchwarden pipes, a feat of dexterity in which the dancer must preserve his own balance and the position of the objects laid on the ground. Another form is the morris jig performed with the usual steps of the morris dance accompanied by a counter-rhythm of arm and hand movements, sometimes emphasized by handkerchiefs held in each hand or a stick passed from hand to hand. Favourite jigs are Jockie to the Fair, Shepherd's Hey, Bacca-pipes and The Fool's Jig. These tunes are in 4/4, 2/2 or 6/8 time, usually consisting of two or three eight-bar sections repeated as required. In many jigs the time of one section will be augmented to permit the 'capers' or leaps which alternate with the figures and conclude the dance. Morris jigs are performed solo or by a number of soloists: three abreast successively repeating the figure, or four facing inwards. To perform the jig the dancer leaves the 'side' of six men and doffs the hat worn for set-dances and processional dances. Music was traditionally provided by the pipe and tabor until well into the 19th century, when the fiddle or concertina replaced them.

Pieces entitled 'jig', 'jigg' or 'gigge', although of no definite character, are found in early instrumental methods and were used as themes for keyboard variations. For example, in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book are A Gigge by Byrd (no.181); A Gigge, My Selfe and A Gigge both by Bull (nos.189, 190); and A Gigge by Farnaby (no.267). Others are derived from songs in farce-jigs: in the same collection are Farnaby's Nobody's Gigge (no.149) and Rowland or Rolandston, which also appears in My Lady Nevell's Book, Will Forster's Virginal Book, Robinson's Schoole and elsewhere up to Bach's Choralgesänge (no.371, 'Keinen hat Gott verlassen') of 1765. The majority of such identifiable jigs, however, are in Dutch collections such as J.J. Starter's Friesche Lust-hof (Amsterdam, 1621). The jig was also accepted into the dance suite, finding its place as the final movement (see R. Cotgrave: A Dictionarie of the French and English Tongues, London, 1611, under 'Farce')."

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 02:37 PM

I can confirm that it is in fact accepted to be absolutely true, having been informed of it in a lecture at uni

I can see my job's more responsible than I thought!

I checked this in the OED & found quite a complicated story. The French 'gigue' (the dance) does seem to derive from the English 'jig'. But nobody seems to know whether 'jig' derived from the older French 'gigue' (the musical instrument a bit like a viol), and if so when or how.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 08:51 AM

The link between "jigs" and "Gigues" is correct. I had forgotten till I read the post above but I can confirm that it is in fact accepted to be absolutely true, having been informed of it in a lecture at uni not more than a couple of months ago.

As for learning to play fast, Yes you can learn, but the way to do it isn't to practie at breakneck speed, but to do the exact opposite.

Just as good kung fu is practiced at excruciatingly slow speeds (t'ai chi) so the musician learns to play fast by practicing at uncomfortably slow speeds.

It teaches you unerring rhythmic accuracy and when you speed up your fingers are so much better trained and dextrous that they don't seize up so easily and get lost.

The primary obstacle to playing fast is tension. People trying to play faster tense up their whole bodies trying, and this in fat considerably slows them down.

If you train yourself to be accurate by practising extremely exaggeratedly slowly to a metronome, and then when you play fast trust your muscle memory, you can move on to step two.

Step two is, when it is time to play fast, concentrate on being relaxed - release the tension in your body and the tension in your fingers will be easier to to release.

Relaxed fingers will be able to devote themselves to playing, not being occupied with being tense - know what I mean?

Tension is a hindrance as it results in opposing muscles working against each other to achieve no purpose.

Relaxed fingers are free to do their job unhindered.

So train slowly - and perform relaxed.

You will be able to play at much faster tempos.

A teacher of mine sometimes refers to an old colleague of his who could play really fast, but was no good at fast tempos.

That kind of speed has nothing to do with music.

Being able to play at fast tempos is what its all about.

How many times have I repeated myself? - Sorry!

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 07:04 AM

terrier,

The supersonic pace you & Keith play at Glan yr Afon [Fry an Anglo?]
no one'd be able to dance those chunes!!

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Mar 09 - 06:55 AM

'Clare is usually fairly steady' - it has been said that when Clare set dancers used to dance the Plain Set to polkas (which it rarely is these days, dancers seem to prefer reels which came in the 80's I think, in Dublin, and it caught on), they would have been at a slower pace than Kerry ones. I doubt whether there are many musicians around now who would have had the experience of playing Clare polkas, I do know of 2, Michael Tubridy and Eamon McGivney, if anyone know knows of others, it would be very intersting to hear about them!

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: terrier
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 10:38 PM

Declan, that's the point I would make, but I don't have the knowledge of Irish music to argue the point.

Maybe they're just playing the tunes as they learnt them not knowing any different. There is an understanding that if you hear someone play a tune a certain way, then that's the way to play it. That goes for singers as well as musicians. Right or wrong???

To get back to the 'metronome' idea. I was recording dance tunes with an Enlgish band. The tempo was all over the place. The recordings are very popular with English dancers. The musicians are long time dancers. I can only assume that they are playing the music as 'dancers' and not as musicians. I know from my days playing for the morris (I was also a dancer) that I used to play the music as I would have liked to dance it and that, due to the mechanics of the dance, was certainly not 'metronomic'.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Declan
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:51 PM

I'd say most trad music is not played specifically for dancers at this stage so this is a bit of a red herring (unless you are actually playing for dancers).

Tempo does vary (among other things) with regional styles - Clare is usually fairly steady. As you move up the west coast towards Donegal things tend to get faster. I'm not personally a fan of very fast sessions, but a lot of people find really fast playing exciting and mistake it for virtuosity. Because of this bands tend to play fast on recordings, others learn from these recordings and a whole viscious circle gets going.

Sometimes when I hear people playing really quickly, I wonder if they really like the music they are playing - or are they trying to get the tunes finished as quickly as possible.

Mostly I'd advise musicians to develop their competence to be able to play tunes at a reasonable speed. Once they are competent in doing that they should consider an appropriate speed for whatever set of tunes they're playing - mostly I think a steady pace is preferable, but it's not for me to say. As a backer in a session my job is to back the tune at the speed it is started, although if I think people are overdoing the speed, I will generally say so. Discussing things like this generally works better than trying to impose 'rules'. For example its useful to point out to beginners with a limited repertoire of tunes that if they play the tunes they know at very high speed that they will run out of tunes they know very quickly.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:47 PM

I'm not knocking it - I was there and I did it. I still can.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: terrier
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:36 PM

Thanks Smokey, it's just that some people are more enthusiastic than others. When I was many years younger and more enthusiastic than my ability warranted, I would feel the gentle hand of experiance on my shoulder offering contextual help. They never complained about my playing or said I was playing it wrong, but just gave friendly advice and guidence and led by example. That's something I've tried to carry on and use as a sort of Mantra( if that's a good explanation). I still regard my early mentors with great affection that they took the time and patience to impart their own feelings for the Music to me. Maybe we should all take a step back and give some room.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:48 PM

None taken Terrier.
What I meant about personality is that it's far more likely to come out if you're not consciously trying. Just play the music and allow it to happen rather than trying to make it.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: terrier
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:25 PM

Any chance we're getting hypercritical here, there's good players and not so good players, we all got to learn. I agree, keep your ego out of the music but your personality is how you play the music. Lots of good advice in this thread but I don't think the last comments are helpful( no offence intended, Smokey).

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 06:56 PM

Fiddle jockeys.. whistle gusters.. bagpipe drivers.. accordion pilots..
They could put them on cigarette cards..
Then there's the Olympics..

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 06:41 PM

Perhaps proper instrument-racing events could be organised, in order to separate the concepts of music as a sport and music as art from each other.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:59 PM

On the one hand, there's the musician who says, "Here, come listen this lovely tune," while the other says, "Here, come listen to me."

Nail hit firmly on head..

I always say a good singer/musician should never get in the way of the music. It's got me some funny looks, but it's my unshakeable belief. My advice to performers would be: If you want your personality to come through the music, don't try to put it there.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: curmudgeon
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:53 PM

I've been following this thread since it started, but have not have the chance to read all the posts. But of thoae I have, I've seen both wisdom and balderdash.

Only my opinion, but I feel that excessive speed is a matter of attitude.

On the one hand, there's the musician who says, "Here, come listen this lovely tune," while the other says, "Here, come listen to me."

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:23 PM

JohnB
Regarding your metronome - I trust you don't live on a very steep hill? Only kidding, but I live amidst an inordinate amount of clutter and often have great difficulty finding a truly level surface. It's one of the advantages that an electronic one has, but I still prefer my old wind-up one. A good tip for wind-ups is to not watch them, because the eye follows the sweep of the arm from end to end, and the click is in the middle of the sweep. The rhythm perceived by the eye is out of phase with that received via the ears.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: John P
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 05:20 PM

JohnB, I was amazed at how slow Morris music is the first time I played for some dancers. I'd watched Morris dancing for years and always thought of it as sprightly. Who knew it just looks sprightly because the dancers are pretty much in the air all the time? Playing too fast is courting heart attacks. I've always thought most Irish music is played too fast, but it was still quite an act of discipline for me to slow down to the appropriate speed. I can understand how your Irish musician kept bounding forward. Not that I'm excusing him for not getting it pretty quick, of course . . .

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 04:46 PM

It certainly should be a matter of personal choice. Manners and competence are important factors too. If we're talking specifically about Irish dance and its music as we know it, it's reasonably safe to assume that they evolved side by side, but that's only a small part of a big picture.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: JohnB
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 04:45 PM

Got to agree somewhat with the Cap'n about metronomes.
We have a Morris dance group, when we get a musician with an Irish session background, they always play too fast. In general it comes from the diddelys or triplets, they play them with total disregard to the length of time of the piece (ie. as fast as humanly possible). Then after a couple of triplets they keep up the new tempo, or end up out of synch with the dancers. A metronme would definitely help there.
Unless it was like the one I bought for $5 in a garage sale, it went
T I C K - toc, it took quite a while to get the arm recentred on the shaft.
On the subject of the music/musicallity though, just remember the Police Force advertising mantra "SPEED KILLS"
JohnB.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: terrier
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 04:28 PM

...Irish dance music was performed at a ceiili...
and I'll raise you one i , ceiiili :)
I'm afraid I take Wiki very lightly as a serious resource, maybe it would be more acceptable to think that Irish music and dance evolved side by side, one discipline feeding off the other. Many times at Irish sessions I've been at, the musician/s have struck up a tune and people have just started an impromptu dance or set and in doing so have had no qualms about telling the musician/s to speed up or slow down to their needs, but I've never heard a dancer say "you're playing the wrong tune".
I'm not sure where this thread is leading as the speed at which tunes are meant to be played varies from tune to tune and area to area and different dancers will want to dance at different tempi. To my mind, I like to hear a tune played well, no matter how fast or slow it is played. Is it just a matter of personal choice?

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 04:12 PM

The word 'jig' comes from the old French 'giguer' (to Dance) as far as I can tell.

Unreliable though Wikipaedia is, their definition of the reel doesn't support the hypothesis of the dance taking its name from the music either, nor does 'hornpipe'.

Not that it really matters....

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,mayomick at slavery
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 09:52 AM

Whatever about flamenco ,you do need a bit of music when you're performing Irish dance . The music came first historcally.
According to wiki
"The jig derives its name from the French word gigue, meaning small fiddle, or giga, the Italian name of a short piece of music popular in the Middle Ages. It was widely played as a dance tune at Irish fairs, and from the music the dance took its name.[1]"

Irish dance music was performed at a ceiili . Without musicians these ceilis wouldn't have happened :

"The céili can be traced back to pre-famine times, when dancing at the cross-roads was a popular rural pastime. These dances were usually held on Sunday evenings in summer when young people would gather at the cross-roads. The music was often performed by a fiddler seated on a three legged stool with his upturned hat beside him for a collection. The fiddler began with a reel such as the lively "Silver Tip", but he had to play it several times before the dancers joined in. The young men were reluctant to begin the dance but after some encouragement from the fiddler, the sets of eight filled up the dancing area."
http://www.irelandseye.com/dance.html

I'm certainly with the slow it down brigade on this issue ,but I don't think we should be taking the speed of dancers as the model . It could actually be the case that over-athletic dancers have been at fault in forcing musicians to speed up.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Stu
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:11 AM

"Is the ability to play fast an innate skill or can it be acquired?"

I'm not sure there is such a thing as a truly innate skill. I think the players I've seen who play fast but can still articulate properly are so versed in the subtleties of the instrument and the music it seems effortless, when actually it's taken a lifetime to get to that skill level. Which I guess means anyone who puts the effort in could learn to do it, although whether they would be subject to the same influences that enables them to be as good as they could be is another matter.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 07 Mar 09 - 08:03 AM

I don't know if the following has been discussed in this thread, but here goes...
Is the ability to play fast an innate skill or can it be acquired? Or, put another eay, are we born with a certain finger speed, or can we practice hard and gain real speed in our playing. I know a player of Irish music in Liverpool whose technique is so undisciplined that it's amazing that he can play at any speed at all; also, I've been watching the Kevin Burke fiddle tuition dvd recently, and so many techniques he employs are bound to make fast playing more accessible.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:32 PM

This is interesting, though not conclusive:

http://www.annaswebart.com/culture/dancehistory/history/

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:21 PM

possible - but also possible that vocal expression came first, later developing into melody and harmony.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:55 PM

We can only guess I suppose but I'm pretty sure rhythm must have came before melody. I wonder how fast they were banging the rocks? :-)

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:11 PM

As for dances without music - I went to see a flamenco exhibition recently - divine it was - there were dances to music ...

... but there were also dances with none. The dancers made their own music with their feet - you could have set your watch by the rhythm - and you could have added music if you felt like it - any musician watching would certainly have been inspired to.

Flamenco is similar to Irish dancing in respect of percussive feet.

I don't know one way or the otheer for sure, but I can easily conceive of a group of people singing airs and dancing reels without instruments.

What instruments would they have been dancing along to?

did the dances exist befor ethe arrival of thee guitar , the fiddle, the bouzouki etc or was everyone sitting around sipping guinness waiting for the musical instrument ship to arrive?

I don't know any better than you - but I contest the view that any part of this debate is logical or safe to assume.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 07:01 PM

See my earlier comments concerning the third movement of a mozart or haydn symphony.

A "dance" can be a musical form as well as a piece of music written for dancing to or it can be a series of choreographed movements.

Which came first - dancing or music?

Maybe chanting and dancing simultaneously without a divide between dancers and musicians?

Who knows - who cares.

Both art forms can exist independantly of each other.

What do you call a tune from Ireland with two or three parts in the dorian or mixolydian mode at a moderate to fast tempo in either 9/8 time or swung 3/4 time (depending on how you hear it)

I'd save time by calling it a slip jig.

We could try to construct a logical hypothetical view about whether music or dance came first, but jigs and reels came into existence long after that time, so there is no telling whether musicians invented them first and dancers were inspired to get up and follow the music, or whether dancers requested music that fitted the rhythm of their dance.

All you can do is do the research and find the earliest reference to jigs and reels as dances or as musical forms and even that is unlikely to be conclusive since the tradition was passed largely from musician to musician and from dancer to dancer.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:43 PM

And you don't get much thythmic percussion these days, it's a dying art.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,Smokey
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 06:40 PM

Regarding the definitions of the words, (jig, reel, hornpipe etc.) it's my belief that they were first coined to describe the dance, hence the way the dictionary treats them. To call a jig (music) a jig is by no means wrong, but knowing why leads to a greater understanding of the music even if you never play it to be danced to.

The dances themselves could be danced to no more than percussion instruments if necessary, just as the tunes can justifiably be played without dancers. I'd guess that the very first dancing humans ever did was to no more than thythmic percussion, not melody.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: mayomick
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 03:31 PM

Large numbers of people were spontaneously frolicking around in 6/8 time and then Italian musicians come along and invented the jig ? No, the music had to have come first.

There are no dances without music that I can of -even a bee dances to the humming of its own wings. Dances without dance ? Could you clarify Lox. I don't see how it's possible without the inverted commas ..

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 12:59 PM

they're just different appendages of the same beast. Some of us became fascinated by the musical aspect, others by the dance.

There are dances without music - and there are "dances" with no dance.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,mayomick at work
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 10:57 AM

You can have music without dance but not the other way around ,so the original Irish dancers must have had something to dance to. To dancers the steps would have been more important than the music itself and so over the years the music would have changed to suit the tempo of the dancers .But you should never lose sight of the fact that the music in some form or another must have come first .

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Stu
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 10:31 AM

There's no right or wrong with this one. I know musicians who love playing tunes at a clip, and others who hate fast tunes along with plenty who like both.

Is breakneck speed spoiling Irish music? No.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Zen
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:54 AM

Has anybody actually broken a neck playing Irish music too fast

I don't know but it's probably prudent to have some spare ones.

Zen

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: GUEST,LPG
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:38 AM

Mick, how often in a session have you heard someone say give us a set of reels (or whatever) and the response has been someone getting up to dance a reel of 3 (or something)? never? because that's not what was meant, they meant The Tune. I may be young but I have been playing most of my life and have inherited it directly form family and friends.

Don't make out like you somehow are passing on the torch to me. I don't believe I have even heard you play, so can't have been influenced by you. Mine and your traditions may coexist but are almost entirely independent.

Plenty of specialist terms are not found in general dictionary. These are some of them. Reels and Jigs aren't words I've learnt from books, they are everyday terms that I use (funnily enough) on a daily basis. Maybe this is why I am confident in my defintion. Are you a tune player Mick? I'm thinking not.

I will admit that I have been a bit inflamatory on here but that was only in response to a thread that was basically saying the thing that I enjoy doing is somehow ruining it for everyone.

Short answer - No.

No - it's not ruining it overall.

Yes - of course no one should ever speed up a set started by someone else. That's beginner level etiquete. Any good player that breaks it would only do so if there are more underlying reasons.

Yes - variety in tunes is good. But that doesn't mean a fast set played poorly followed by a slow set played poorly.

Yes - all tunes sound the same. (sort of) Although if the players are good and it still sounds the same to you. Then you are out of your depth. Learn the tunes being played. Once you've done that you should be able to hear the differences at at last.

Sometines we play for people that can't hear the tune for the ornamentation, however most enjoyment is gleaned from playing tunes with people that can appreciate the subtleties that distinguish a great player from a good one, not trying to educate the masses.

Lilt should always be in the music. If people aren't tapping there feet then somethings probably wrong. The music maybe "dancey" with a strong rhythm but not at a speed you can dance a convoluted step dance to.

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: meself
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 09:13 AM

I saw someone break a fingernail once ...

Subject: RE: breakneck speed and Irish Music
From: Sugwash
Date: 06 Mar 09 - 08:44 AM

Has anybody actually broken a neck playing Irish music too fast?