BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 06:45 PM

Please Keith just drop it, leave the Irish situation to the Irish, you are like my ole dog with his blanket. You seem to have a bone to pick with republicans, I repeat, go to an Irish rebel site and talk with those that are interested, we an't mate. Now you have a guy teribus fired up too.

We all want peace, not just in Ireland, on here too !

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:02 PM

Al, all I said was that PIRA did not have the support of a majority of Nationalists, and I explained why it needed to be said.

We must all be prepared to come to terms with uncomfortable truths.

You posted justification for PIRA's campaign. I will not challenge that now but remember NICRA and SDLP did challenge it from the start, and they were not English like me, and they DID have the support of the majority of Nationalists.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:22 PM

Keith, the situation there wasn't one sided, there was wrong done by both sides and people see you care to overlook the actions of British soldiers and government policy for years against the Irish. Sometime admit the actions of soldiers and government were wrong and people might see your point.

Take a break from this, I saw some individuals in a totally different light during this debate.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:33 PM

Can't quite see what Big Mick did to deserve that tirade from Teribus, but if Mick is indeed moderating as well as contributing in this thread, as someone suggested, that surely is inappropriate?

All of which is by the by. My main purpose is to say that Keith A is showing himself to be blinkered, embittered and obsessive beyond reason.

I am on the record here, often and alas sometimes at length, condemning as criminal some of the excesses of the Provos - incinerating a dozen people with a napalm-type bomb at the Le Mons hotel in 1978, to mention one - and also urging republicans to make some effort to understand the protestant/loyalist mindset. Nearly always I was in a tiny minority here. I am delighted that at last I now seem to be on the majority side.

The difference between then and now, Keith, if you lack the capacity to work it out for yourself, is that properly democratic processes now prevail in Northern Ireland.

Perhaps even more important than that, Northern Ireland now has a police service that is fully accountable and which is supported by an overwhelming majority in all parts of the community. (Thus Gerry Adams was prepared to say on Channel 4 News and no doubt elsewhere that it is not for the Provos to take action in respect of the recent dissident atrocities because there is now a trusted police service whose job that is.)

Some sort of desperation must have driven Keith to say that the Provos never had majority support within the nationalist community. They had democratic legitimacy from the hunger strike onwards, and Sinn Fein went on to eclipse the SDLP.

Keith and I would probably agree about some of the atrocities of the past, but we would certainly disagree about the shameful shortcomings of governance in Northern Ireland throughout most of its existence. The real scope for argument would be about the extent to which the former were justified by the latter. But what on earth would be the point, Keith? Most people on both sides have moved on. Why the hell can't you?

One other point: the measured and thought-provoking way that Kate Carroll has spoken about the murder of her husband will have gone a long way towards negating any recruitment potential for CIRA/RIRA from these three murders.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:40 PM

Peter, Keith seems fixed on the actions of the ira, he over looks faults by the British army which leaves him wide open.

Well said, maybe your wording will edge him into 2009.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 07:54 PM

AR, you are mistaken about your earlier post. After I posted my last post I left home and have only just now returned. I restored the deleted post (and deleted the repeat later and references to it as they were not needed), because it did not violate any rules.

If the tone of your post was meant to be insulting to me, I am sorry to hear that. My positions on this subject are clear, and have been carried by me almost since the beginning of this forum. My knowledge of the issues is not uninformed, rather based on knowledge gained (and understanding sought) from those on the ground there, in addition to having lived among immigrant Irish Republicans most of my life. I do not embrace any glorified concept of this conflict, rather I believe firmly (for all the political and historical reasons) in a united Ireland. In fact I was one of the few carried those arguments early. But I support the process that is going on, primarily because it is supported by the people who live there. But I will not be an apologist for what has gone before. This is an old struggle, and it is a righteous struggle. And now it is taking a new path.

As to Teribus, it is clear that he cannot read for comprehension. Were he able to, he would understand that I support the peoples of the North and what they are trying to accomplish. But I do so with not a whit of apology for what went before, and which carried us to this moment. But as I said, the people of the North of Ireland have spoken and they have chosen a new path. And, btw, Teribus, your motives are so clear in your last post. I know you to be intelligent and perfectly capable of understanding the meaning and intent of what I wrote. For you to respond as you did only shows you for what you are. And it is my belief that what you are is a close minded bigot, and the antithesis of intellectual discussion. Intellectual discussion would demand that you try to explore cause and effect, and understand your opponent. But you simply seek to denigrate your opponents. Boor, neanderthal, provincial, and any number of less poolite terms come to mind.

As to being a "Plastic Paddy", let me say this. I am torn between responding as if the comment came from a mental midget, or conversely from someone seeking to somehow just insult. If it is the former, then I will just ignore it. If it is the latter, then when the day comes that we meet, I surely hope you will remind me of the same. We can resolve it then in whatever way seems appropriate at the time. Darts, billiards, arm wrestling......... or whatever else honor demands.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 08:25 PM

Mick, thank you understood. I re-posted my comment as I felt it broke no rules.
I am not interested in a slagging match here, but this guy Keith is so fixed in his reporting of a one sided past it is becoming annoying. He can't and won't admit to the murders by British army or the murderous role of the British in Ireland.

I read through several of your posts recently and you appeared to have a great understanding of the situation in Ireland, I read one post yesterday them moments later you pulled it, I have to say I can't run with you there.

This thread has moved a little into Keith and the past according to him.

Please do not take the bait with that teribus guy, I read some of his older posts too, foolish is the word that comes to mind, annoyed he wasn't involved at street level I think, please don't stoop that low to reply to him.

I will gladly admit to understanding the actions of the Irish and their right to deal with the invader. Regarding the age old comments by Keith and teribus, many things happen in war, not all are intended.

I will also say I felt you were deleting posts because they showed support for republicans. If I was wrong, sorry.

One last thing, remember when an english man uses that line teribus did, you know he beat him hands done in a debate. Poor guy.

The Irish people will always be grateful to the American nation for their support through the tough times, they delivered and it will never be forgotten.

Slan

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 09:01 PM

Al, I would never delete posts because they were in support, or against, anyone. I only remove posts that violate the personal attack rule, or under a very limited set of circumstances which are well laid out.

As to the issue of Republicans, in the Irish sense, I am a firm supporter of the Republican/Nationalist cause. I have been unequivocal about this over the many years I have been here. I am also a veteran who understands armed conflict in very specific ways. It has given me a grim understanding of the horror of war, no matter how legitimate the cause. Armed conflict is often necessary, but should never be seen as a glorious event, and if one is being honest, should be seen as a complete human failure when it occurs. And then steps will be taken to end it. That is where I see the peoples of the North of Ireland. They want a different way, and they are now demonstrating that. That is what I support.

And I concur completely about TB, and to a lesser extent, Keith. One could enjoy the debate with them if they would but admit that the root of all this lies in the actions of the Crown. If they would simply admit that the treatment of the indigenous Irish peoples at the hands of the British government, and that same government turning a blind eye to the egregious discrimination against the Catholic population by the monied capitalists, is a shameful episode with repercussions that have lasted centuries and will resonate for years into the future, then decent discussion could occur.

Al, may I suggest you search for the thread on "Back Home In Derry", and read it through, then look at some of the linked threads at the top of the pages. You will then understand how long this has gone on here. You will also see how opinions have changed and enlightenment has occurred.

all the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 09:24 PM

Excellent, just read it briefly there, worth more time tomorrow.

I do hope Keith finds peace in his heart and removes his blinkers. That other guy isn't worth speaking about, he firmly believes "In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king".

I do understand people may wish to express their feelings at recent events, but sadly in this thread one person has used it rake up the past and attempt to goat members. This serves no purpose.

One also has to accept there will always be those willing to carry on the age old fight for Irish freedom. They cannot be ignored because some disagree with them.

Goodnight and thanks

Al R.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 10:36 PM

I'm a complete outsider, and I wouldn't blame the knowledgeable posters here from jumping all over me for raising my head. But I took a graduate class in Irish Literature a number of years ago, and the professor was Irish--or maybe an Irish immigrant--and the course material concentrated on the more famous writers we all know from the Republic of Ireland, but the last week of the course, we read some material written by Catholic writers living in Northern Ireland. It was the most gut-wrenching literature I've ever been exposed to in my life. I'll never forget it.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 Mar 09 - 11:36 PM

I have read much from the same well, Riggy, and spoken with writers of literature such as you describe. I think your assessment is dead on.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:01 AM

I did not say wrong was on one side only.
I have not criticised or even mentioned any action of PIRA
I have not challenged the many views expressed that I disagree with.
I have not defended the army.
I have not discussed the origins of all these disputes.

In the above posts I have been criticised for each of those and more.

I did correct what I thought was a simple error of fact, that I thought significant.
For that I am branded combatative, blinkered, etc., etc.

If I was wrong I will withdraw and grovel.
I thought that SDLP did not eclipse Sinn Fein until the cease fire.

If I am right, it is my detractors who are blinkered.

So which is it? The voting figures are available, and I have posted them before.

Perhaps I missed some.

I am not interested in having one of the old slanging matches.
I just want to understand the dissidents' motivations.
Please stop telling me how bad I am and just correct my single mistake if that is what it is.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:16 AM

Keith of Hereford's views are unusual in this community. He presents those views dispassionately, if persistently. He SHOULD be protected from those in this community who respond with personal abuse and innuendo. He CAN'T be protected from those who respond with repeated raking over of material which we know, from vast experience, can't be resolved by argument.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: skarpi
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:47 AM

oh dear !!!

would rather like to talk abaut palmtrees and cocnuts ??

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:57 AM

Keith, I realise that my post looked like it was a sideswipe at you but this wasn't my intention. It was my intention to point out the fact that most people living on mainland Britain are utterly ignorant of the historical roots of the conflict in the North.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:51 AM

SAOIRSE32
27 August 2008
Trouble flared when police went to investigate telephone bomb warnings in the nationalist Tullygally and Drumbeg area on Monday evening.

http://saoirse32.blogsome.com/2008/08/27/sniper-fires-at-riot-police/

Dissidents used the bomb warning to lure police into the area to murder them.

A dissident representative was on camera condemning everyone except themselves, they decried the presence of the PSNI, even though they were there to deal with a nonexistent bomb.

What happened was a practice run to the murder of officer Carroll,he was called to the same area to deal with a brick threw through a window. Should he have not done his job?

I wonder how many people have ever set foot on the ground in N.Ireland's trouble spots, how many get information first hand or do they rely in the biased reporting of newspapers.

Why has the IRA/SF got the gaul to tell dissidents not to use violence,like the official IRA told the PIRA before them, all have one thing in common.

They found out that violence does not work and as a PSNI widow put it,the murdering only gets people a 6'by6' piece of land.

These so-called freedom fighters have oppressed the very people they want to "set free" more than any occupation could do.

In the Craigavon area mentioned in the above report I have family and friends,and some enemies, who say they want nothing to do with the dissidents,but they are shit scared to confront them.

They do not like watching the easily led young rioting and being hooked on this fighting for Ireland's freedom BS.   

I have always wondered why they do not do a DAAD and picket outside the known dissidents fancy house, they are shit scared to do it,why? because these people are terrorised into keeping their mouths shut.

We now have a 17 yr old who could potentially face life in prison, did we not have enough 15-17 yr old's throw their youth and their victims life away at the behest of some terrorist commander.

Any one answer why continuing the struggle would be a good thing or could they explain to that 17yr old's parents why his involvement in a murder was beneficial to their son?

After thirty or so years of armed violence SF would know what they are talking about and if they say violence was not working it, it was not working.


Here is an interesting vid, and we wonder how some get their information on N.Ieland. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y7SXIoTOx0&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

Ireland, get your facts straight, you said "A dissident representative was on camera condemning everyone except themselves, they decried the presence of the PSNI, even though they were there to deal with a nonexistent bomb".

This individual spoke on television on behalf of a respected all Ireland political group, not a so called illegal dissident group.

Stop trying to create trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:27 AM

The guest Observer was the only contributor defending the dissidents.
He has fallen silent.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Stu
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 08:30 AM

Here's a timely reminder of what the people of Ireland and Britain face if we slip back to the violence: Belfast Telegraph photo gallery.

It's the ordinary people of the North and Britain who bear the brunt of these troubles, not the politicians, commanders and those miles away.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 09:31 AM

Fraid not, even Sf have eluded to this person also and have asked why they do not come forward now, O'Dowd, if he is who you are referring to, made ridicules clams that the PSNI were protecting dissidents, what crud, why would they protect those who want to murder them.

Besides if they did have informers infiltrated in the dissidents ranks,like they had the IRA, it would be stupid to highlight that fact.

Here is also a timely reminder of what the other side of the equation can offer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li24LABcWHg

What happens those who want none of it and are caught in the middle.

K of H. has asked the questions that needs to be asked and not only for one side he has put many through the mangle to iron out their views. Nothing wrong with that. He is well informed on the situation in Ireland and imo he has more knowledge than most of the so called experts we have to listen to.

The question K Of H asked pricked some people and made the murder of 2500 or so people by the IRA questionable,what gave them the right to murder so many and tell others that they have no mandate or support for their acts of murder.

Was K Of H right that SF did not have the support of all nat/rep, the only people who can answer that is the people themselves.

The sad fact is, if the armed struggle had worked all those who had aspiration for a U.I. would "win" even if they supported the IRA or not.

I get a feeling when people use such statements as "slaves" etc they could write what they know about N.I. on a postage stamp or maybe on an elastic band to stretch it to a sentence.

We hear this word occupied,what nonsense, my family went through the same struggles as my families catholic landlord did. Back in the late 60's, as a child I can remember icicle's in my bedroom window.

WE did not have electricity, running water etc, this is not to diminish the problems that Catholics faced, they were treated like shit,but many protestants face the same problems.

The root cause was the pieces of crap that ran N.Ireland they need dug up and slapped for the legacy they left my generation onwards.

But in the spirit of K OF H I have to ask why these people thought the way they did.

Partition as we all know basically came about due to the same reasons we have peace today, people realised (Collins) that violence was not working.

The North was for the protestants and the south for the Catholics was a predominant mindset back then.I do not justify it but in a small way can understand it, given the war held mainly in the republic.

My point is these so-called heroes,Carson and his ilk, protestant Ulster for a protestant people had some small justification for holding them views.

Long post short

Should we not be looking at why people do what they do and just then we could come to some understanding. Which is I think K.Of H' point.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 10:19 AM

Yet again your talking through your ass. This guy is a clean skin otherwise they would have tugged him, they tried often enough. Please stop entering into debates you have neither proof or support of. Maybe you would prefer to address your lies to him ?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 11:11 AM

What are you on about, why is it that when people remind those that there is another side they are talking out their ass? Explain yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 11:13 AM

In response to Big Mick's post of 12 Mar 09 - 10:02 AM

1.        "Let me step in, even though I do not live in the North." –

OK, so you're an outside observer.


2.        "But you all know where my sympathies lie." –

So you have now identified yourself as a biased outside observer

3.        It is my opinion the body of evidence is clear as to the oppression, theft of land, and imposition of their laws by the British in Ireland, as well as the outright discrimination in employment and education against the Catholic Irish.

As a biased outside observer what body of evidence is clear? Upon what has this opinion been based? In a later post you admit that you have never been to Northern Ireland and that:

"My knowledge of the issues is not uninformed, rather based on knowledge gained (and understanding sought) from those on the ground there, in addition to having lived among immigrant Irish Republicans most of my life."

Hearsay in other words.

4.        I believe that the armed struggle was a legitimate one, as well as the guerilla tactics against that oppressor that had superior firepower. The North OF Ireland is just that.

Really?? You actually believe that?? Then in your view exactly the same would apply by way of justification to those who carried out the attacks of 11th September 2001, in New York and in Washington DC. I bet you shout that from the roof-tops for all to hear at home.

5.        "Having said that, it is clear that the people that live there have spoken with a very loud voice. They seek to move from the armed struggle to a political struggle."

I take it that we are talking about ALL the people who live in Northern Ireland here? Or are you only referring to one section of them? I somehow suspect that the latter is the case.

Can you tell us, as a biased outside observer, exactly when those people loudly voiced their support of the armed struggle in the first place?? I ask because I was over there at the time things started and while we were there protecting the Catholic/Nationalist Areas from Loyalists mobs and paramilitaries, and disarming the 'B' Specials, I never heard any of this clamour for armed struggle that you infer.

Additionally as agreed with the GFA a referendum was taken throughout the length and breadth of Ireland which clearly demonstrated that the people of Ireland saw no place for political violence in Irish Politics that view was supported by the vast majority of those who voted. The Republics "constitutional" claim on the six counties was also dropped. So the people spoke with a very loud voice about eleven years ago. Had they been given the chance, knowing what we all know now, they would have spoken in that same loud voice forty years ago.

6.        "They seek to move from the armed struggle to a political struggle. They have chosen to move from armed camps to political camps to express their chosen points of view."

The people of Northern Ireland, mainland Britain and various other locations never really had much option about finding themselves in an armed struggle to begin with. That reality was forced upon them by various paramilitary organizations including "dissident" elements of the "Official" IRA. Just as now the people of Northern Ireland and mainland Britain are faced with a return to those bad old days, coutesy of "dissident" elements of the "Provisional" IRA.

Currently the PSNI and Security forces are trying to locate a car bomb that the "Real" IRA has brought into Northern Ireland. Reported to be similar in size to the one rendered safe in Castlewellan at the end of January this year that would put its weight at 300lbs – What was it our biased outside observer said about guerilla tactics against oppressors with superior firepower again? – Oh yes, legitimate that was it – Guess who the bomb will kill and maim, if it goes off??

7.        "This has always been about those same people. It has always been about them righting ancient wrongs, and that has been a fight that they have never given up on."

I'll ask you once again, who are you referring to as, "those same people", the population of Northern Ireland, or just the "Nationalist" community of Northern Ireland.

So it's all about "righting ancient wrongs" eh, that's alright then, sounds like a bit of fun. By the bye, does everybody get a shot at "righting ancient wrongs" then, or does this only apply in selected cases that you happen to approve of? I ask because there might be more than a few in your own neck of the woods who might want some ancient wrongs "righted".

8.        "They supported the IRA, PIRA in the struggle. Now they support the ballot box and peace."

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the IRA, that's the "Official" IRA outlawed in 1921 by the Government of Eire? Didn't they fight a "civil war" about that time that the "Official" IRA lost, a civil war in which many, many more Irishmen, women and children died than were ever killed in the nine months period in which the "Black and Tans" were deployed. And yet you say that the people supported the "Official" IRA – I somehow don't think so, some maybe, but that does not equate to all or even a majority. In more recent times when were "those same people" given the opportunity to voice their support of the "Provisional" IRA? Or was this support only sort of taken as being read, on account of, if you voice any objection you'll find yourself nailed to the floor by your knee-caps. Had "those same people" actually supported the "Official" IRA in the early 1970's, there would be 3500 people still alive today and 36,000 who would not have been injured.

Now they support the ballot box and peace, you say. I think that as a whole the majority of the population of Northern Ireland always did. Mark you around Craigavon the ones who kicked over the flowers and candles left marking the spot where Constable Stephen Carroll was murdered might have a different take on things.

But taking everything at face value, if as you say the majority have moved from support of an armed struggle to a political struggle, then it is high time that they proved it. Like the killers of Robert MacCartney and Paul Quinn, the membership of the "Real" IRA and "Continuity" IRA are known to SinnFein/PIRA/IRA. If they are indeed committed to peace then the murders should be surrendered to face the courts.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 11:23 AM

I take it the peace movement did not happen, all those people protesting for an end to violence in 1976 with the same message in 2009 silent protests.

Yes very poignant question indeed K Of H. was the IRA having the true support of those people who attended the rallies.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:04 PM

1976 the year the "peace People" came on the scene is recorded as the third highest operational year of the war. Teribus,who was charged with the killings of "Robert MacCartney and Paul Quinn" name them please, as far as I know no soldier is serving time for either killing. Again, your arse doing the talking.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM

Al, PIRA said it was their men that killed Robert Macartney.
They even offered to shoot them.
Hope that clears that one up.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:24 PM

One of the most serious incidents has too many shades of the past for us all: the brutal murder of Paul Quinn. It resulted from a dispute between Paul and a son of Vincent Traynor, a local IRA chief. Paul Quinn and some other youths from the area were involved in activities that did not go down well with the senior republican leadership in South Armagh, especially as this new breed of republicans is defying the leadership. It is now quite clear that Vincent had oversold the case against Paul."

link to slugger O'Toole
http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/we-cannot-allow-this-to-be-brushed-under-the-carpet/

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:28 PM

I repeat, no one connected to the IRA has been convicted with either killing.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:36 PM

Would you think the army council would know and if they have a real mandate and are a legitimate army,why have they not admitted the killings.

Do you know who killed them?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:43 PM

I haven't a clue, how would I know, do you ? ask Keith, he seems to have all the facts and figures at hand, ask him about British army murders of children in the North of Ireland since he is again at his history book.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 12:57 PM

It is 24 hours since I made this short post;
"If only the will of the people can prevail this time, because they did not support PIRA before.
They always supported the ballot box.
It was Sinn Fein that changed, leaving the dissidents behind, and not the people."

In reply I had many long posts containing screenfulls of outrage.
You made an issue out of what I thought was a minor point.

In all that tirade, no one managed to put up anything showing I was wrong.
Peter K came close with, "They had democratic legitimacy from the hunger strike onwards"
It was true that Bobby sands captured the Nationalist vote in his local election, but PIRA had first to make sure that the poor Nationalist voters had not a single non paramiltary candidate to vote for.
For the rest of the 80s and 90s, the staunchly anti-PIRA SDLP trounced Sinn Fein for the Nationalist vote at every election.
Hard evidence.

In 1976 tens of thousands of Nationalists demonstrated in Belfast for an end to the armed struggle.
Hard evidence.

Consider also the Republican group, Belfast Citizen's Defence Committee.
They had 50,000 people sign a "call for peace", and hoped that the Provisionals would respect the wishes of the people and stop bombing and shooting.
Hard Evidence.

As I said, I had no intention of making an issue of this.
Blame yourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 01:14 PM

"I haven't a clue, how would I know, do you ? ask Keith, he seems to have all the facts and figures at hand, ask him about British army murders of children in the North of Ireland since he is again at his history book."

What is it your pissed off with him for, he did not take your side or that he asks questions that make you think.

How many children were left orphans by the group that killed the most Catholics than the B.A. RUC and the loyalist groups put together, need a clue.

You make such a point and an obvious reply would be how many did the IRA murder or do you want a blinkered yes sir answer, do no look toward K of H then. Rest assured his history will not be biased.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 01:17 PM

In response to GUEST,AR

"I could see your point if you'd been a serving squaddie over there or lost friends in Ireland, correct me if I got this wrong, but you were a part time soldier in the TA and never saw any kind of service deployment ?"

How do you know that he didn't Guest Al?? I don't know where you call home, but talking as you do about Northern Ireland and "The Troubles" you must know that the bombing campaigns of the "Provisional" IRA and the INLA did not just restrict themselves to targets in Northern Ireland, and they most certainly did not restrict their targets to regular Army units – TRUE??

"….you start threads about peace in Ireland or Irish rebels and welt the back of the Irish for standing against masters who arrived over there from Britain."

Shows how much you know about the history of Ireland or of the British Isles. I mean really:

•        "I will gladly admit to understanding the actions of the Irish and their right to deal with the invader."
&
•        The Irish people will always be grateful to the American nation for their support through the tough times, they delivered and it will never be forgotten.

Guest AR without any shadow of a doubt you are the Ernest Hemmingway of Bullshit.

" if the German army had landed on my shore during the 1939-45 war my old man would have cut the crap out of them any way he could."

Irrelevant, you are comparing "Apples to Oranges". Ireland as a united country only came into being under British rule, prior to that no such "country" or "nation" existed. What you did have were a number of small kingdoms who were never "unified" or fully at peace with one another. The "English" or more correctly the Normans have been in Ireland since 1172, that's 837 years Guest Al, hardly "Johnny-come-lately's" by any stretch of the imagination. Invading German Armies did not afford the inhabitants of the countries they occupied the option of voting on anything.

"So Keith, were the Irish wrong not to roll over and take what we did to them? There was a government in Northern Ireland in the 1950's which treated Irish catholic's like slaves and second grade."

Keith said something very true and yourself and Big Mick should take heed of it:

"Stating falsehoods as truths does not take us forward."

Now tell us exactly what it was that "WE" did to them. Who is the "WE" and "WHEN"? I personally have not done anything to them, might have played a small part in stopping some of them being killed or maimed but I see no reason to apologise for that. Oh yes Guest Al, I did spend some time over there "on the ground", two tours, unlike Big Mick.

That "government in Northern Ireland in the 1950's" that you refer to, was formed by who? If memory serves me correctly from around 1922 Northern Ireland was completely autonomous it had "Home Rule". So I'll ask you again what did "WE", as in us "Brits", do to them and "WHEN". That Government based at Stormont was an absolute joke and a complete and utter embarrassment. But as Keith, I think, pointed out The Civil Rights Movement and the SDLP were making them look increasingly ridiculous, and this was acknowledged by the "Official" IRA at the time, who saw the possibilities of real advancement through peaceful means.

"Come on man, be honest, if you knew the south coast was covered in landing craft and your town hall had been taken over you would be one of the first to "tip and run" against their rule."

You mean today – absolutely, I'd be there like a rocket. If you mean 900 years ago – forget it, after that amount of time, who the f**k cares. Mind you if you are absolutely set on causing trouble and want to blow folks up you could always invoke Big Mick's "righting ancient wrongs" crap. Personally I'm not all that keen on killing people on such flimsy and questionable premises. Besides when did the "British" ever invade Ireland Guest Al?? That charge might arguably be leveled against England, but not against the "British". And that English "invasion" if indeed it was one was pretty half-hearted. Things picked up a pace when James I and VI decided to settled his problems on the Anglo-Scottish border by shifting the riding families to Northern Ireland – Not an invasion as the King of England had been declared King of Ireland from 1541 – you can't invade your own Kingdom.

Al, ever wonder why England got interested in Ireland in the first place? If you ever want to find out read a book call "Sovereign of the Seas" by a Canadian Naval Historian called N.A.M.Roger. It is an excellent book which deals with an overall European view of things and not just with individual counties in isolation and should be compulsory reading for anyone teaching the history of the British Isles.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 01:46 PM

Haha teripus, don't get sore at me just because Big Mick made a little boy out of you !

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: meself
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:05 PM

Again:

"I realize this is a controversial subject. I request that it be discussed in a civil manner. ... and civil behavior is expected of everyone."
"-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator-"

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:44 PM

Oh you mean like:

"The real motives of these people are to justify their country's wrong headed and discriminatory policies in the North." – Big Mick

Well there you go, "their country's wrong headed and discriminatory policies in the North", care to tell us exactly what policies they might be considering that from 1922 until 1972 the Province had its own devolved Government, which during that time set their own policies. In 1972 that devolved government was first suspended then abolished in favour of direct rule from Westminster until the Northern Ireland Assembly was established in 1999. During that time (1972 to 1999) the problems indentified with the previous devolved government and reforms suggested in consultation with the various political parties in Northern Ireland were introduced in order to reach the point we are at today.

"I believe firmly (for all the political and historical reasons) in a united Ireland." - BM

Care to tell us when Ireland was ever politically or historically a united nation before the English and then latterly the British arrived on the scene Big Mick?

"But I support the process that is going on, primarily because it is supported by the people who live there. But I will not be an apologist for what has gone before. This is an old struggle, and it is a righteous struggle. And now it is taking a new path." - BM

This is an old struggle says Mick, too true. Let's see who we had fanning the flames down through the ages:
•        Spain in the 16th Century;
•        France & Spain backing Stuarts in the 17th Century;
•        France in the 18th Century;
•        Emigré Irish Americans in the 19th Century;
•        Germans and Plastic Paddys from America in the 20th Century.

I somehow get the impression that if they hadn't bothered things might have turned out a damn sight better for everybody. Up until the 20th Century Big Mick, down through 500 years the "people" of Ireland didn't even enter the equation, they had SFA to say in the matter. The wars and rebellions were instigated by the disaffected aristocracy of Ireland who bloody well told their tenants who was fight who, when and why. If they don't like it, or were not prepared to take part, they died or got turfed out. Nor were they fighting for Ireland's "freedom", in the case of O'Neill in the 16th Century he was going to turn over Ireland to Spain as a colony with him rewarded as Spain's Viceroy.

"Were he able to, he would understand that I support the peoples of the North and what they are trying to accomplish. But I do so with not a whit of apology for what went before, and which carried us to this moment. But as I said, the people of the North of Ireland have spoken and they have chosen a new path." - BM

Referendum tomorrow Big Mick and the population of Northern Ireland states that they wish to remain within the United Kingdom – Any more legitimate struggle after that? – Any more ancient wrongs to be righted? – Or will you and the rest of the outside observers over there in Boston accept the choice of the people who live in Northern Ireland and butt out of something that has got absolutely dam all to do with you.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Den
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 02:49 PM

Its funny how are pro-British posters never mention the most pivotal moment in the history of the troubles that was Bloody Sunday. The murder of innocents on that day changed the peace movement forever. Who in their right mind would not think twice in marching for peace at the risk of being shot to death. Prior to that day the PIRA had little or no support. Bloody Sunday was the greatest recruitment strategy the PIRA could ever have wished for. I have heard Bloody Sunday being described as, "heavy handed." It doesn't matter how you package it, murder is murder. It was a blatant attempt by the British to make Paddy lie down. It didn't work. And now some 37 years later no one has been charged for those murders either.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:01 PM

Teribus, please please don't talk as if British hands are clean in the North of Ireland. The world knows of your antics. Again, please stop the anal chat please.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:28 PM

GuestAR - I don't believe that I have. What I have done is counter claims by yourself and Big Mick that lay all fault at the feet of the UK Government.

Den - As far as "Bloody Sunday" goes I'll wait for the report. As far as references to "murder of innocents" and utilisation of phrases such as "It doesn't matter how you package it, murder is murder." Let me answer the question posed in the title of this thread:

"True IRA?? Who are they?"

The "true" IRA are the people who were responsible for the abduction, torture and murder of Mrs Jean McConville, an innocent if ever there was one.

The "true" IRA are the people responsible for terrorising Northern Ireland for 40 years now, primarily targeting innocent civilians, any doubts? Let's talk about "Bloody Friday".

The "true" IRA have had many prefixes "Official", "Provisional", "Real" and "Continuity" all anybody has to realise is that irrespective of name they are all butchers.

Oh a question for GuestAR, Big Mick and you Den:

"Give me one example of one IRA man who has given his life saving the life of an innocent civilian in Northern Ireland"

Note: Bombers getting blown up while assembling their bombs, or who get blown up while transporting their bombs to their targets don't count.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:29 PM

Den, sorry can not give link, but check my post to you on 12 May 05 - 03:05 .

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Den
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:49 PM

I was quoting the city's coroner, retired British Army Major Hubert O'Neill, from his statement on 21 August 1973, at the completion of the inquest into the people killed. He publicly stated:
"This Sunday became known as Bloody Sunday and bloody it was. It was quite unnecessary. It strikes me that the Army ran amok that day and shot without thinking what they were doing. They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder." Pretty informed opinion I'd say.

You might be waiting for the report for a very long time. Maybe there waiting until all involved in murder are no longer around to be brought to justice.

I have stated before on many occasions that I abhor all murder of innocents. It doesn't matter which side commits it.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 03:52 PM

Thanks Teribus, I will willingly accept your defeat, not easy for you to admit it, but thank you all the same.

Just a pity you wouldn't strecth it to giving honour to the great men of Irish republicanism, but I see your coming around.

Also I admire you for admitting British soldiers did murder innocent Irish children, you have surprised me tonight.

Best wishes
Al R.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:11 PM

I have been through this so many times, and I am not going to do it again beyond the obvious. TB should change his name to "Obfuscation 'r Us". He begins all tirades at a moment in time that suits his arguments, builds a premise that is either false, or out of context, and then crafts an argument that looks absolutely brilliant. And, as Al has pointed out, absolutely refuses to accept any criticisms of his country's policies, or any blame for the same. But one thing is clear to any observer that is willing to take the long view, and who craves justice and peace. That thing is that the English, during their colonial expansion, and conquest, decided to come to a land, subjugate its people, take their property, strip it of all resources and livestock, dispossess them of ancient lands and give it to others, and discriminate against them for centuries. They played the "Orange Card" and effectively used it right up until very recent times to maintain their hold on the industrial north. Their security forces used a shoot to kill without cause policy, provided intelligence to the loyalist terror groups, imprisoned people without cause, and did all they could to wipe out the Irish culture. They stood by and watched school kids be mobbed and scared out of their wits.

TB, there are many things done on both sides of this struggle that people should be ashamed of. I know this from my own experiences with conflict, and if you were half the warrior you imply you are, you would admit that is the way of armed conflict. So when one only engages in finger pointing, it is very easy to find atrocities. But the brilliance of the processes like the South African Truth Commissions, is that folks could look at each other and acknowledge what was wrong, and then move on. In the North of Ireland, that is happening primarily on only one side of the equation. Had you stepped up and simply acknowledged what is so, and expressed a hope for a peaceful future, and a self determination, for the children, and all people, of the North, I could give you grudging respect. But as far as I can see you are not worthy of that. If you cannot acknowledge what the world knows, which is that the policies of the Crown and governments of Great Britain, lie at the root of all this, then you will continue in my mind to be not worth spending anymore time with. And I shall not.

Your time has come and gone.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: skarpi
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:16 PM

eh !!
How many PALMTREES do you have ?? I have three short ones
and one coconut :>))

in this thread I have knowledge for the rest of the year
thanks all .

Iceman

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,keith
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:40 PM

detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=1483520
There you are Den

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 04:50 PM

A GuestAR start taking more water with it, it is obviously affecting your eyesight.

Big Mick:

"He begins all tirades at a moment in time that suits his arguments, builds a premise that is either false, or out of context, and then crafts an argument that looks absolutely brilliant."

What moment in time have I selected to suit my purpose Mick?

What false premise? So far you have not refuted a single thing that I have said.

Nor have you answered a single question put to you.

But there again I didn't get my information sitting over in America talking to immigrant Irish Republicans and their descendents.

"That thing is that the English, during their colonial expansion, and conquest, decided to come to a land, subjugate its people, take their property, strip it of all resources and livestock, dispossess them of ancient lands and give it to others" – BM

What English colonial expansion are you referring to Mick - America?

Maybe you should have put that post to music – it would be about as factually and historically accurate as "Back Home In Derry" or "Fields Of Athenry" – both complete and utter fairytales.

"So when one only engages in finger pointing, it is very easy to find atrocities."

You mean as you have been doing from your first post to this thread.

"there are many things done on both sides of this struggle that people should be ashamed of. I know this from my own experiences with conflict,"

The only thing wrong with that Big Mick is that you don't have any experiences of this conflict.

"the policies of the Crown and governments of Great Britain, lie at the root of all this,"

Bullshit it was not the policies of the Crown and Governments of Great Britain that opted to use the gun and bomb and in so doing cause the deaths, directly and indirectly, of 3600 people and further maim 36,000 others, the vast majority of them being the very people they were telling the world that they were "protecting". And now the very same people who took that decision have the nerve to describe as "wrong minded" former "comrades" who have done exactly what they themselves did 40 years ago that Big Mick is simply rank hypocrisy.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: GUEST,AR
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 05:09 PM

Well said Big Mick, that's him boxed in, no way out. Christ help him, it's a pity really. Why does he go on silly rants ?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:28 PM

No harm to any of you posters but do you honestly think what your posts translate to for us in N.I.?

We have people who get their Irishness from books films and the biased views of story tellers which may or may not be pro Irish or for want of a better word pro unionists.

Be sure of one thing idiots have stuck their nose in our land\history and it is us that pays the price,stop using N.Ireland/Ireland as a football in the game of how much I know.

Ireland is too complex to discuss the complete issues here, this bull that it was ever a united Island shows an ignorance that has caused lives to day hundreds of years later.

Here is the real problem, we have peace three people are murdered and that peace was shaken, now we have idiots giving succor to the very gunmen who murdered and maimed on our streets and who pays the price, us poor buggers in N.Ireland.

And guess what we have to read how such and such does not apologise for the actions of terrorists who they have given their moral support to but never stood in front of the aftermath of shootings or bombings. Try watching the blood of complete strangers run down the drains, they now have one thing in common,they were murdered by the very people who their supporters do not apologise for.

And what do we get, some person asking how many children the British armed forces murdered and ignore that the terrorists they supported murdered more people than all the rest put together and have no apologies for that, wow thanks very much I noticed no-one spoke of peace, easy to throw lives away especially if they are not your own.

And were do these people get the experience to hold such views not living here not lifting pieces of mince off the streets of Ireland that turn out to be the last remains of a human being,not having to wash the blood of friends off the streets, they get it through books and accounts from those who would carryout those actions.

This is all based on the fallacy that terrorists had full support, they never did as the dissidents are getting support from people in Drumbeg Craigavon today the PIRA got it in the past through shear fear.

But guess what has not got through to some,violence does not work,and we have people who do not apologise for using that violence how pathetic, to them peace is a threat.

Now we have a society were both sides can hold their head high the immediate need for the utopia of a United Ireland is not as prevalent and that threatens the nat\rep cause. Many people Catholic and Protestant are happy with their lot.

Why should we have it spoiled by outsiders who frankly really know little about us.

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: Ireland
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:34 PM

BTW GUEST,AR where about in Ireland do you live?

Subject: RE: BS: True IRA ?? Who are they ?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Mar 09 - 07:38 PM

100