BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)

Subject: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:24 AM

I have a fascination about Man made underground tunnels for instance Old Chalk mine workings and above all Ex Military underground establishments both W.W.2 and Cold War.
Listening stations. underground storage depots ,deep underground Magazines. And Bomb shelters both WW2 and Nuclear.

Having visited only a few in the past because of access restrictions my intrepid Explorations now bring me to the Medway town of Rochester.

Under the Town of Rochester is the top secret WW2 Aircraft factory housed in two huge abandoned underground tunnels.

There are also a number of Chalk mines in the area one can see these quite clearly has you approach Rochester on the Train.
My aim is to Legally visit these places or if indeed access is denied to try to discover has much about them has possible.
Libraries surprisingly from my experience hold little if any reference on such places.
The local authorities turn a deaf ear due to Heath and safety issues.

So I will start by asking

Does anybody know of and can confirm the above mentioned Ex military base and indeed the Chalk workings.
Kind regards Pierre

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Mr Happy
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:34 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williamson_Tunnels

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:40 AM

Pierre, you'll like this site:

UK Urban Exploration

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:46 AM

Shouldn't this be a BS thread?

Try the Second World War tunnels under South Heighton, Sussex, and also Newhaven Fort, which is Napoleonic.

Also try the Hellfire Caves at High Wycombe. The sign outside reads

'HELL FIRE CAVES AND TEA ROOM.'

Valmai (Lewes)

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Dead Horse
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 08:47 AM

There have been (and I have seen) articles in local newspapers about folk who disappeared into "large holes suddenly appearing in the ground" around the area of Wainscott etc.
I should imagine that tunnels may well have been dug by French POWs from Napoleonic era all about (under?) Chatham/Gillingham which would have been deemed "Top Secret" at the time, and not widely known about.
I should also conjecture that this area (Chatham/Gillingham) would have been so much more widely dug than than Dover, which is a positive warren of underground workings.
The forts on the Medway islands and surrounding areas are reputed to be so connected. But be warned. There are an awful lot of myths attached to this subject, most of which are pure balderdash.
And as far as I know (not a lot) there is no musical connection, so shouldnt this thread be BS?

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Valmai Goodyear
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 09:07 AM

And there are the Crowborough Caves , also in Sussex.

Valmai

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 10:26 AM

I am a newbie to Mudcat and if I have posted incorrectly I am sure the moderator will move the thread to its proper place. apologies to all.

Hello folks.
I have done the Hellfire Caves in West Wickham.
The Napoleonic forts at Newhaven and Ramsgate Crockmere Haven Dover Chatham. And I have also done one fort on the Medway. And the tunnels beneath The Seven sisters cliffs.
And the WW2 Listening post in the Cliffs at Berlin Gap.

Sincerely folks I do appreciate all your replies.

But it is the two sites in Rochester that are at present my main and only concerns.

I understand there are tunnels just up the road from the Good Intent public House in Rochester I was informed of this by a friend/Fellow musician when I went to a concert at The GI a few weeks back He lives in Rochester.

I understand there privately owned which is a good thing because I will not trespass but I will write to the owners and try to gain permission from them for a future visit.

I do not do these ventures alone I have a full team of guides from The Chislehurst caves who will come along and if it is a terribly difficult site I will try to approach a team of underground researchers to accompany us. I have found the Rochester Aircraft tunnels on the Internet. Subterranean Britannic. So they definitely exist.
Kind regards to all.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 10:33 AM

The chalk lined tunnel - actually recently relined in concrete) between Higham station and Strood Station was the longest chalk-lined tunnel in Europe - but for the old chalk workings in the middle of it which cut it in half. I know where those chalk workings can be found from overground, but I don't know of any safe access. I think they were Roman or even pre-Roman. The recent re-lining was because of increasingly frequent chalk falls, that were disrupting train services.

The tunnel was originally dug for the Thames and Medway Canal, and it was a "walk-through" tunnel - the men lay on their backs on the cabin of the barges and walked their feet along the tunnel roof, to propel the barges through. The railway company bought the tunnel off the canal company. and filled that bit of the canal in, although a fair bit of water still goes down the tunnel to Strood.

Quite a fair bit of the canal has vanished over the years although the canal basin in Gravesend has only recently started the process of gentrification.   


THere used to be a tunnel from Gads Hill House to Gads Hill School under the A226 - filled in with concrete some years ago.

THere used to be a tunnel from the Rose and Crown in All Hallows to the church under the Stoke Road - filled in with concrete some years ago.


There used to be tunnels from Grain to the Martello towers. Guess what? Yes, concrete!


Threre have been reputed to be smugglers tunnels around All Hallows and the Yantlet since the days of "the Gentlemen" (although the "Gentlemen" were elsewhere) and although there were tales of children going missing I think the smart money is on those tunnels having been ploughed in long since. If you dig too deep near Allhallows you get a spring, not a tunnel!


There are undoubtedly tunnels below Rochester Castle, my late wife went down them as a child on guided tours, but along with the other dpradations of English Heritage at Rochester Castle the tunnels have been closed.


There is supposed to be a tunnel from the cellars of the Coopers Arms to Rochester Castle - or maybe to the Cathedral.


Tere is undoubedly a tunnel complex under Beacon Hill, Chattenden - but don't try for it, it is in active MoD use for a radio network that transmits signals to nuclear submarines...

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 11:33 AM

Richard you are a Mine of information Thank you.
Rochester Castle seems a good place to start digging about. I will write to The Management team this very evening.
If the tunnels under Rochester castle are closed Then I am sure they could be reopened for the correct interested parties. A reference on my behalf from the War Museum and Chislehurst caves would usually unlock barred doors.

Re The Canal tunnels you mention I believe the Aircraft factory was housed within such a tunnel,Thats very interesting.
The main thing is are they accessible these days in regards to just being open so folk can stroll in or are they sealed. If the latter is the case then It is very interesting.

I never approach working Army. Naval or Aircraft bases or M.O.D. sites. One is wasting there time from the beginning. No Way.

I found that out years ago when I went to Fort Halstead. Uninvited.

It is near to where we all camp at Knockholt. When I tapped on the Gate house window I was told to F off by the bulldog inside and that was before I had even had the chance to opened me mouth.

Clearly one is not welcomed at such Establishments.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:09 PM

Oh, there's a gorgeous mediaeval vault underneaththe Goerge Vaults Wine bar - the rest of which is given over to unmitagated chavvery. It is owned by Aaron P Stone who also owns the Casino nightclub, regularly featured on those cop TV eality shows about street violence...

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:15 PM

"Underground tunnels"??   That's the best kind!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:23 PM

Pierre if you haven't already found this site this is what you want

Rochester tunnels

parent site

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 12:42 PM

In the 70s I worked as a electrician servicing many of the London pubs.
Several of them adjacent to the Thames have 'smugglers tunnels' which were used for transporting contaband from the river to the cellars.
One of the most fascinating pubs was not far from Wellington Barracks in Hyde Park.
I arrived to do some lighting repairs and as I opened the door to go down the cellar one of the customers shouted out "Mind the ghost".
The story I got was that the Duke of Wellington was so unpopular with his men that he had a tunnel dug from the barracks to the pub so he wouldn't have to walk the darkened streets late at night. The tunnel is said to be haunted by the ghost of a soldier who was flogged to death for attacking the duke late one night.
I also worked in a pub in S E London where I was to repair faulty cellar lights. When I arrived I was asked had I brought a ladder - I had a short stepladder on my van. I was told that this was not anything like tall enough.
I found that the pub was built over an abandoned railway tunnel and at one time the ceiling of the tunnel had collapsed. Rather than repair it the company had built a staircase down to the extremely deep tunnel floor.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 02:48 PM

Cut and paste follows 'cos it's sort of bits out of the middle of several pages of stuff: -

"The Medway Forts
Following a Dutch raid in 1667, a ring of forts was built around the town to protect the naval dockyard and these were improved and added to during the Napoleonic Wars. Despite the enormous cost, they never saw a shot fired in anger and Chatham today is still dominated by the largest, called Fort Amherst. Of the others, several have been demolished but some still remain, albeit hidden amongst trees or houses. These forts were smaller versions of the Dover fortifications and, although they had underground features, the local rumours of linking tunnels are not true. Fort Bridgewood, Fort Clarence, Fort Delce, Fort Pitt and Fort Darland have been demolished although a few features may still be found. Fort Borstal, Fort Horsted, Fort Luton, Twydall Redoubt and Grange Redoubt still remain at the time of writing but permission must be obtained from the respective landowners before visits. The most impressive was Fort Amherst and, luckily for posterity, this has been preserved. It is open to the public and volunteers often dress up in period military uniform.

World War I
This marked a change in the pattern of warfare since the fighting took place in the trenches of France and Belgium, with no requirement for new fortifications in Britain. It did bring in a new development, however, whereby men of the Royal Engineers began to tunnel under the enemy trenches to lay explosive charges, hence the derivation of the word 'mine'. The base depot of the Royal Engineers was at Chatham and the area was used to experiment with new techniques of mining, since the local sand and chalk was almost identical to conditions at the Front. Very few of these trial mines were recorded at the time and, although it is likely that many collapsed subsequently, some still turn up in surprising places. The latest example was discovered following a collapse in a Gillingham back garden in 1988.

During the construction of a roundabout at the junction of the A2 and A278 in Gillingham, a set of 6 galleries was found which had been unsuspected. They were found to be on three levels from 20-50ft below the surface, being dug as a model for mining operations under Hill 60 in France and the subsequent battle at Messines. Each gallery consisted of an entrance tunnel which led to six chambers, each 20ft wide x 30ft long x 7ft high. They were in a very dilapidated condition and had to be completely infilled.

World War II and After
.......... It is highly likely that other undisclosed military installations exist in Kent and Sussex that are still regarded as military secrets.



Ramsgate Air Raid Tunnels

............

Rochester Civilians also needed air raid shelters and large communal ones were made by adapting existing tunnel systems at Chatham, Rochester, Sevenoaks and Chislehurst.
.....

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Mar 09 - 05:16 PM

Come to the US, M. Pierre -- and welcome to the Cat House.

Smith & Wesson, the firearms maker, put their entire plant outside Springfield, Mass. underground in the very early days of WW2.

There's a whole section of Seattle, WA which is underground -- the Seattlites can tell you about it.

Even here, in li'l ol' Pocatello, Idaho, there are the stories of the "Chinese tunnels" that went from one business to another and were used for gambling and opium smoking among other things.

You can visit closed military posts: the Presidio in San Francisco, former missile silos, even the massive Cold War bomb shelter at White Sulphur Springs, West Virginia.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 04:40 AM

I believe there are also tunnels under Rochester NY...

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:02 AM

Pierre - I share your fascination with the under-world.

There are some AMAZING places. The Urban Exploration noted above is in many cities around the world. Some specialize in climbing, others in tunnels, others in underground rivers. I stumbled upon them perhaps 14 years ago when I asked a question in a newsgroup to find information about a very "private" cemetery in Rotterdam, NL. It is a close-knitted community.

I have explored caves and mines (one in particular several times with tunnels reputed to be 50 miles in length and witnessed a circular staircase carved through three levels...locked and sealed by the state mine inspector's office - the bypass is ludicrously simple) I have explored the underground tunnels of universities, and giant drainage ditches (big enough for city buses to drive through) under some of the most expensive real-estate you can imagine. I also like sewer construction and underground brick vaults. WWII military sites and old NIKE silos and train/street-car lines are also good in the urban areas. Old maps in the library. It is ASTOUNDING what is right there. Good resources to cultivate are "clubs" with city managers and engineers and DWP workers and firemen and heads of campus security (cops don't seem to know or be interested in Adventure - perhaps they get there fill in their jobs) Graffiti Artists (another area I enjoy) and Ravers are also aware of some places.

None (of the Good Ones) I know are "on the web" because most folks who know would like to keep it "seldom traffic" and openly accessable. Some of the ones on the web include Disneyland Underground...major universities...and commercial ones like Seattle and Paris - which can lead to off-shooted spurs. Generally it is by introduction...I never would have gotten first access without knowing someone...and learning the route/by-pass/trail...always use a "buddy system."

I would love to explore some of the ones in Italy.

Seek and Ye Shall Find.

Have Fun and Be Safe.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:16 AM

I agree that active military bases are nothing to mess with ... some friends have had experiences that make for amusing tales in later years...I got in trouble even getting a haircut in C.Springs.

Avoid airports too.

When questioned by "concerned citizens" we quickly pass with references to a well known and respected "Conservation Club."

Welcome to the Mudcat.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

This place never ceases to surprise me.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:21 AM

There is an extensive system of tunnels under the campus of the University of Notre Dame (yes, THAT place). And do you have any idea what's under their football stadium?

A rifle range.

Built in the 1940s as part of the Navy's V-12 program it was used up until at least the late 1970s by the ROTC; it's been closed because of lead hazard since. I understand from someone who shot there that it damned COLD down there.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:23 AM

Rafflesbear. That is The Rochester Seaplane / Aircraft Tunnels thank you very much. They look more like Train tunnels. From the out side.

They must have been the Canal tunnels Richard mentioned and the authorities just added features to them like adjoining tunnels and audits toilets etc. What a fascinating place to Explore.

Thanks Jim Carroll & Richard.
Indeed the most unlikely places do hide The most interesting places. When I used to guide Chislehurst Caves at the end of the day I would always make for the nearest pub for a pint or Six and has the years went by The locals gave me The Nick Name Caveman Pete. The Pub in question is the Bickley Arms.
The landlord told me once that The cellar of the Bickley Arms had Windows in it which immediately got my attention. Why would a pubs cellar well below ground level have windows. I asked The Landlord if I could view these features and he led me through the pub and down a stone staircase some 20ft in to the Brick-lined cellar. WoW and behold there in front of me was not one but two Victorian Box Sass windows.

Has I surveyed my surrounding I pointed out to the Landlord what I thought were at least two false walls indicating what was once a much larger cellar. On a return visit I went through one of the windows and found myself in a bricklined tunnel identical to the bricks of the cellar on the other side. I had borrowed three torches and a number of oil-lamps from the Chislehurst caves and with some friends who promised to await eagerly for my return pub side I ventured along this brick-lined tunnel some 2ft wide and 6ft high smothered in cobwebs.
Everyone back at the window was hollering and shouting after me and I shout back giving info to what lay ahead. Absolutely nothing but brick-lined passages. Then suddenly I found meself coming across a large square hole and the remains of what was once a shoot from the surface and I could see pinpoints of daylight shining in from what was the surface some 12ft above me. Pin holes of daylight to the left was clearly a bricked up door way again fashioned from the same brickwork has everywhere else. With no else else to go in any direction I went back the way I came and found meslf back at the windows with me friends awaiting there. I climbed back in to the cellar shut the window behind me and Said

I think I have just found my way into the coal and beer shoot of the former pub of this site The Tap.
The Tap was knocked down and the Bickley Arms constructed with the coming of the Railway to Chislehurst .

They simple built over the old cellar and constructed everything else above and around it by sealing up parts of the original huge cellar.I think the windows may have been installed so has to increase/ decrease ventilation in the new pub. Which was a pub but also a station Hotel. The Bickley Arms Hotel.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:48 AM

John those Planes without a shadow of a doubt would have been fashioned from the

Sea Plane Factory housed in the tunnels in photos above suppled with thanks from Rafflesbear. I have got to get down there.

The public air raid shelters in Rochester are a completely different system of tunnels. These are old chalk working similar to the Chislehurst workings where I used to guide.

I think these may be The tunnels Growler told me about at the Good Intent but I felt concern on his behalf towards me that they are on private property and for me to stay away.

Rapaire
Indeed you do share the same fascination has me.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 09:20 AM

I have Just Emailed Rochester Castle in Regards to there underground tunnels and the one time guided tours of them. Thanks Richard.

If I some how doubt permission will be granted to go around this site. We will see.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:03 AM

I have just spoken to Rochester Castle.

The present day management Rochester Council who have occupied the site for nine years have no knowledge of tunnels under the castle but know of a rumored tunnel that goes from the castle to Temple Manor. Where ever that is. Cant be far Imagine.

In reference to guided tours of the tunnels beneath Rochester castle they are in complete denial and refereed me to Fort Amhurst in Chatham which I have done scores of times.

I feel a visit to Rochester Archives is a must to get to this bottom of this.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 10:59 AM

Try the tunnels in Liverpool, too.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:11 PM

Bristol, too.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:31 PM

Rapaire & strad.

Do the tunnels in Liverpool and Bristol by any chance link up with the Rochester Tunnels.
Rumour and supersition thrives in these places.

For Instance Take Dick Turpin The Highway man.

There is a Dick Turpin Cave In Woolwich. another one in Abbey wood. yet another in Welling.

There is another one In Caddington in Bedfordshire. and another one in Royston. Every where there is a Chalk mine Dick Turpin sought refuge in it. That Horse of his Black Bess must have been some bloody horse I mean they got a bout a bit did they not?

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 12:37 PM

Not to forget Reigate.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 03:11 PM

Here in the USA, ROCHESTER in the state of Minnesota is the home of the amazing healing complex called MAYO CLINIC.

Under their sprawling maze of buildings are tunnels that make it possible, during terribly snowy Minnesota winters, to go from appointment to appointment without having to traverse ice and snow covered walkways and streets with a walker or in a wheelchair.

I came into this thread certain that it was going to be about Rochester, Minnesota.

But no!!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 05:26 PM

Pierre, just to mention that the canal tunnel is on the western side of the Medway starting immediately after the curve northwards from Strood station and housing the railway to Gravesend

There are excellent aerial views of the tunnel (well as good a view of a tunnel as you can get from the air!) - including the short stretch of open line in the middle - on Windows Live Search maps, Birds Eye view

Where the railway turns south the canal went straight on into the Medway and it looks like there is still a hint of where the the two joined

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 07:18 PM

That part is accessed from Canal Road (from the Rochester Bridge end) and Canal Wharf, from the other side, both of which used to have good scrapyards!

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 08:28 PM

The Liverpool tunnels were built by a mad Liverpudlian in the 19th Century.

Every building on the campus of St. Mary's College in Notre Dame, Indiana, is connected by tunnel. This permits the young ladies to go from dorm to library to chapel at 2 a.m., if the library was open then.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Sawzaw
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:21 PM

Aren't tunnels by default, underground?

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:35 PM

Now, some are under snow, for example, or ice.
Some are within elevated structures like termite mounds.

A

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 23 Mar 09 - 11:38 PM

To: Sawzaw

No - I believe not.

I have been through some in rafters and crawl-spaces overhead...I have also been through some in the mind, as in D&D....I have been subjected to visuals (not my own PTL!) of oscopy exploring tunnels within living creatures.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Cluin
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:16 AM

Watch out for CHUDS, Morlocks, and giant alligators.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Sawzaw
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 12:27 AM

I see, said the blind man.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:41 AM

Not all tunnels are under ground.
I visited a house in Chislehurst believed by it occupants to have tunnels under it and found meself crawling through the stilt brick foundations that supported the House.

Ironically a bit like The Bickley Arms Adventure I mention in the above Thread.

Rafflesbear I will look into that from Google Earth Thanks.

In the Half Stone Mines in Godstone Surry there is the remains of a Dead Shire Horse.
And a fitting plaque carved into the Sandstone crediting the creature for its hard work.
It appears quite clearly the unfortunate creature was shot through the Head.
Richard Re Scrape yards.
Outside surrounding the entrance of The above was once a compound which was littered with a assortment of Volvos a graveyard indeed.

It appears the owner of the place had a liking for such things. There is a couple of those half timbered Morris Minors also. all rotting away. Covered in green slime.
A fitting reminder to a bygone age. The volvos are The 244s ? Im no expert. But from memory

They are The Volvo, Estates where once inside, if you did not put your seat belt on you had a big red square box on the dashboard that flashed and let out a irritating clicking noise untill one went quite Mad, That you put the bloody thing on.

Such things are common in cars these days but I think Volvo were the first to introduce it back in the mid 80s. I am sure it was the Volvo 244DL.

The Camden Chalk mines in Chislehurst are littered with junk because they are housed these days at the rear of a builders yard and the builder has filled the enterence with all his site rubbish. Old cement mixers and bags of gone off cement.

I scrambled the builders mountain of rubble and got in through a hole some 2ft wide and 18 inches high for some 15ft then broke out in to the main workings. I spent about half hour down there and venture out with a tin bearing the name.

                            J&F Bell.
                            Three Nuns Tobacco.
                            Empire Blend.
                            Glasgow.
                            The Tobacco of Curious Cut.

I still have it and have found a image of it on the internet under the above name.

In the Listening post at Berlin Gap I found a pair of ladies M&S Knickers hanging off the ventilation ducting, I believe they were white once upon a time but they had turned a Marsian Red colour and hung in tatters stained Green. The Red and Green caused by acids in the vent duct staining the material.
I hasten to add I did not keep them.
Regards to all Pierre.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 10:48 AM

Amos

Re
Now some are under Snow, for example Ice.
some are in elevated structures like Termite mounds.


that a very cute reply Well done.
Pierre.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,Rafflesbear
Date: 24 Mar 09 - 04:14 PM

Google Earth is ok Pierre but Windows live search gives you four different low level angles on each view using 'Birds Eye' all in very good definition especially when you zoom in - I recommend it

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 11:32 AM

Raffles bear thats great Re above much better then Google Earth.

Today I returned to Rochester
It weird Rochester castle denies having tunnels beneath the Castle ,Yet The purple headed bar maid in The Nags Head Rochester Tells me its a well known fact there Is tunnels beneath the castle.. I must admit I have had this Par-larva before where Tunnels/mines well known by the locals are denied by the councils etc.


My wanderings today took me to The splendid Rochester Cathedral another place where secret tunnels are supposed to be.

I inquired of the curet re tunnels and he was a bit more interesting to talk to stating that there was a number of tunnels both to + from the Cathedral but today they are all filled in. Its a stunning cathedral really magnificent.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pistachio
Date: 26 Mar 09 - 06:44 PM

If you, or anyone else is interested there is a wonderful underground complex south of Berlin, Germany, called Zossen Wunsdorf. Disguised above ground by 'houses' of solid concrete which deceived the eye of pilots flying over. The gardens were maintained, washing was hung out and flowers grew in window boxes! It was a 4+ floors down, military command centre with its own daily train to Moscow, such was its importance. Used by East Germans and Soviets it it the most fascinating bunker township and there were daily tours when I visited in 2005.
Hazel.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 05:45 AM

Thanks Pistachio.
I will look it up on the internet.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Mar 09 - 10:02 AM

In the 19th century, there were rumours that there were tunnels from Rochester, N.Y., under Lake Ontario to Canada for the Fenians to sneak over (somewhat akin to the rumours that the Catholic churches had armouries in their basements awaiting the moment when the Pope would sound the call to arms and murder all good Protestants).

I assume this was all untrue.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:47 AM

Monsieur Chapeau

The current edition of the council magazine "Medway News" reports that with the aid of a £154,000 grant, a team of one professional and several volunteer archivists are for the next three years to catalogue 500 boxes of the Rochester City archives dating from 1227 (yes, 1227) to 1974.

If there are records of tunnels under Rochester, that is quite a likely place to find them.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:58 AM

Thanks Richard I will get on to that I will be revisiting Rochester soon for I have to pick up a guitar in nearby Chatham.

I went to Rochester The other day but returned disappointed when I uncovered nothing of any interest apart from the Cathedral and a purple headed bar maid..

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 09:02 AM

http://cityark.medway.gov.uk/

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Art Thieme
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 04:23 PM

Patty Hearst(remember her?) was never the same again after enduring the inclement climate she encountered, and bought into, when she met up with the Weather Underground!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 28 Mar 09 - 06:14 PM

Aye Art - It doesn't take a weather man to know which way the wind blows.

I'll stay with Johnny in the basement mixing up the medicine.

SIncerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

I,ll be on the sidewalk looking out for the Government.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,Kyn
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 06:41 PM

My forum arranges visits to Shorts Underground Seaplane Works twwice a year, you are more than welcome to join us however the next trip will not be until October 2009!

www.kenthistoryforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2386.0

You will also find alot of information about local tunnels and bunkers not to mention anything else concerning Kents History.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:55 PM

MAX - BigMick - Joe Offer - Pene

Is there any wonder WHY the MC ? ? ? is still alive today.

Throw a "straight line" across the world and there is ALWAYS a comic to respond.

In the past decade the Mudcat has given me greater pleasure/information/connection/enjoymenet through threads like these (excepting 2 of the vinial and 3 of the cardinal) than ANY other place on the internet.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Do not cancel me out this weekend ... I will soon be gone for the rest of April

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:06 AM

KYN
Excellent News thank you I,ll wait till October no problem. I will be in touch soon working at present. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 09:30 PM

Where are you going garg? Are you busking in europe? What country?

Subject: RE: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 02:58 PM

KYN
why did you not follow my threads. I ment what I said but La Gear got involved and told management at the Chislehurst mines That I was planning to break into the caves and his blown up a right Wasp nest. .
And to boot you have banned me from your site. Has if I would take you kent historical lot on a tour of the caves if I had to break in? Rod La Gear a Meddling old F..t He was a bloke I used to respect.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 07:35 PM

Er...?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:10 AM

Never mind the above Richard.
The message is intended for the person/s its titled too.

I will too stick to folk session in future.l
To hell with Caves, Mines, and Tunnels. Some discussion sites are more trouble then they are worth using and twisting the info you give them. Im very peeved off with KYN and fellow sillyarses . I better stop now before I get thrown off of Mudcat has well.
Regards Piierre

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 09:42 PM

This is an interesting thread and I want to explore the above info more carefully when I have a bit of time, but I'd like to point out that I first looked into the thread because I wanted to know WHAT Rochester -- it's a common name across the planet.

As a kid I spend time with cousins in Rochester, Minnesota and now a neighboring town (no tunnels, alas) is Rochester, New Hampshire.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 01:49 AM

Hi Bat Goddess.
Rochester is a town in The South East of England on the Banks of the River Medway.
It has it own Medieval Castle and Cathedral. Its also hosts the Rochester Sweeps festival every year which is the largest open folk street festival in Europe. Well worth a Visit if you ever cross the pond.

Do Bat Goddesses hang upside down?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 02:05 AM

Heres a picture of the 0Rochester Castle and River Medway I hope it works.

punkyrennie.wordwww.press.com/.../




or

wwwoldpicture,com/europe/rochester-castle-E

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 02:07 AM

Try Rochester castle and cathedral england on google Bat Goddess there is loads.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:23 PM

Rochester (UK) Tunnels on YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 03:28 PM

How difficult could it be to run a string of lights in there? shudder

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 19 Jun 09 - 06:24 PM

Three things come together here to make it fascinating

1   The tunnels themselves
2   The dereliction and the history it represents
3   The fact that it is forbidden territory

It's a bit like a shipwreck, you know it's there, you can get tantalising glimpses of it but it is the fact that it is inaccessible that preserves the sense of history in a way that bringing it to the surface and displaying it can't achieve

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,Alan Smith
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 09:39 AM

Hello.
I live in Wainscott. I was recently gardening when I uncovered a manhole with grass growing over it. I investigated and there is a square shaft that goes approximately 2 feet down. It then opens into a bell-shaped chamber with perfectly smooth concrete walls. It is approximately 5 feet in diameter. The floor is just mud and over the years some rubbish has been put down there. I dug down approximately 2 foot but it's just more mud with various layers of rubbish, ie tiles and broken bricks.
Does anyone have any idea what this could be? There are nu rungs or ladders and no other holes are markings in the concrete walls. I am tempted to just keep digging but I could do this for a long time! Our house was built in the fifties and we have lived there for around 6 years.
What could this be???

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:37 AM

Are you anywhere near the line of the railway tunnel from Higham to Strood? If so it could be connected to those workings in some way. Can you date the manhole cover? Did it have a builder's name on?

The nature of the concrete might give a clue to the date.

Were there older buildings before the 50s houses were erected?

Are the tiles and bricks like your house or different (and are the remnants large enough to date)?

If you are anywhere near the old mill there could be a link to that.

If you are near the old brickfield there could be a link to that - or if you are near the old vicarage (or church) it might have been an icehouse for the vicar's drinks parties.

Wainscott is quite diverse in character.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,Alan Smith
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 03:23 PM

I am just over the other side of Frindsbury to the railway tunnel.
I will take a look at the manhole cover tomorrow and try to retrieve some broken bricks/tiles to see if there's any writing on them.
Unfortunately I have no idea about the age of buildings prior to our house...

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 06:16 PM

You can roughly date bricks by dimensions. We all know the shape of modern bricks. Old ones are less tall.

But of course, it could be an old hole with subsequent rubble.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Penny S.
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 08:54 AM

Should be a lower entrance for an icehouse, as well as a top access for the ice. Is there a lake nearby as a source for ice?

Cesspit? Septic Tank?

Construction to do with stop line during WWII? I note nearness to RE.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Paul Burke
Date: 22 Aug 09 - 02:58 PM

Soundsd like something to do with sewage. But waht glorious names down there- Wainscott is jsut by Fridsbury Extra!

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,Alan Smith
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 02:50 PM

I had a quick peek down there again today.
Firstly, the cover is solid iron, perfectlt square (as opposed to rectangular), weighs an absolute ton and has no markings on it.
Inside the hole, there are no markings at all on the concrete walls.
I had a rummage through some of the bricks and tiles that I found but none had any markings on them and I strongly suspect that they consist of general rubble, disposed of by a previous owner perhaps.
I had a look at the plans for my house today but there is no mention of any underground chamber.
We are not that far from the River Medway but I think it highly unlikely that this is an ice chamber.
It seems at the moment that I'm only going to discover anything by digging deeper. It's not wet down there, just very cool. The soil seems to have a lot of clay in it.
This is really puzzling me now and even a search on Goolge hasn't helped!
Looking at the smoothness of the walls, I'd guess that this chamber was pre fabricated and buried under the ground. Just to clarify, there are no holes or other entrances in this chamber, leading me to suspect that it has nothing to do with drainage/sewers.
Does anyone know if this possibly sounds like a well? I dismissed this theory owing to the domed roof on the inside and lack of any real moisture!

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 03:05 PM

A cesspit wouldn't have another exit - but if used, there would be traces.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:26 PM

That is sounding VERY like an inspection chamber - not necessarly to a foul sewer, but to a culverted stream - later abandoned and subsequently filled with rubbish. Are you on a line that might once have had a stream?

If you'd like to join and PM me the exact location it might help me - I'm fairly local, in Lower Stoke, formerly of Higham.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 04:41 PM

How fascinating, Alan Smith. I have a question: You say the concrete is "smooth", in other words, mixed and troweled? It is not rock bound by mortar?

Could it have anything to do with WWII? Did the UK create bomb shelters? How about a repository for valuables?

How large is the chamber? What are the dimensions?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM

I am reminded of a TimeTeam investigation of the Shooters Hill stop line from WWII, where there was a fougasse set up at the top of the hill to fire burning petrol down the hill on enemy tanks. I don't know what the reservoir for the petrol was like. I am wondering if this could be a tank for such a thing. I don't know the line of the stop line at the Medway - I assume there was one. And it was near the Engineers -sorry, repeating myself. See if Chattenden has any idea?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,Alan Smith
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:30 PM

Richard, my house is parallel to and is just behind Wainscott Road. I have read before that there are several streams in the area.
There is no evidence to suggest that this was once a cesspit.
The concrete is perfectly smooth ie no pebbles or rocks in it. We would have had bomb shelters but the dimensions are just too small for this to be a possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:37 PM

My thought was that one could date the concrete by the method used but I just researched the history of concrete. I had no idea that 'modern' concrete was so old.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:54 PM

Hi Alan. You are right there are no obvious topographical features between Holly and Wainscott and I imagine that storm water drains towards the bottom of CHattenden Hill rahter than towards the Medway. There is also no obvious line of willow trees. So I think storm water channel is out.

You are much too far from the brickyard for that to be relevant.

Likewise you are much too far from the railway (formerly canal) tunnel, and too far from the church.

I don't think there ever was a grand old house in that patch, either.

If it was anything to do with Victorian era foul drains it would be on the east side of Wainscott Road, near the terraces there (and Hills Motors).

It's too low lying to be for incendiary materials for a stop line (and an earth floor would have been no good for that purpose).

I am, so far, baffled.

Is there a local historical society?

I know not all of the records of the old Strood Rural District Council survived the creation of the Medway council (and turning the old Strood Rural council offices into an old folks' home).

Are there any church and parish records?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Penny S.
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 07:04 PM

Richard, I was assuming Alan hadn't reached the bottom yet, so the nature of the floor was still moot. It's a bit odd, isn't it. It's not the right shape for a left behind hidey hole from the war. I'll be interested to see what turns up in the end.

Is there a parish newsletter that Alan could use to ask for any local info?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: GUEST,Alan Smith
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:11 PM

At least I'm not the only one confused by this!
I've dug out and studied the plans for sewage to our house and nothing goes anywhere near where the chamber is. However, the plans also fail to show a manhole cover behind my house for the sewers (which I know for a fact is there) and a disclaimer at the bottom of the plan basically says "these may be inaacurate but we (the water board) cannot be held responsible". All in all, it was useless.
Penny, you are quite right- I have yet to reach the bottom. There is a fair bit of earth to shift (my wife won't have anything to do with the hole so I'm on my own) so it is just a case of having the time to do such a thing. I have already discovered that the earth goes down at least another 2 feet. I suspect there must be a good ton of earth.
Richard, I will try to find out from the local parish some history. I know from brief research that Wainscott has quite a varied history to it.
Keep those ideas coming!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:42 PM

There is a Higham historical society that is quite effective - and this month they are doing Chalk village, so maybe in due course they could look over to Wainscott.

I think there is a Strood historical society too.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:53 AM

And I wouldn't think it would be a well. My sister has an old well on her property, and it was mentioned in deeds - indeed, the neighbours had an easement for access to it for water. Not a good idea, since when the mains were attached, it was converted into a cess pit. Also, a well would need a way for water to enter, and would not be so wide. It sounds quite modern, of a time when a borehole would be more likely.

Does the soil look as though it was all put down there at the same time? And does there appear to be anywhere in the garden where the waste that is not in the chamber could be? (Irrelevant to what it is, perhaps, but contributing to the overall picture.) Does the state of the top look as though it was used at all - is it worn? Can't be someone's nuclear bunker - too small!

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:22 PM

I had already considered and discarded WWII bomb shelter.

Defintely not a well: it would have been capped off with concrete.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Penny S.
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:40 PM

I thought - briefly - of a post war nuclear shelter constructed by someone for personal use to their own design. I agree it doesn't work as a WWII one. (Nearly sent this off with three Is.) My sister's well has concrete over the top, but I wouldn't exactly call it capped. It's more of a concrete manhole cover. I'm intrigued, and I've run out of ideas.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:26 PM

Yes, I'd thought of a 1950s style bunker, but they usually were much larger, over here at least. Following along in fascination; it feels as though Inspector Morse should happen along. Of course there'd have to be a body for him to bother with it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:58 PM

Ah ha! Is it a mausoleum for extremely short people?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:38 AM

It's a hobbithole!

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 10:50 AM

Perhaps the Travel-O-City Gnome vacations there? Only place he can get away from adoring fans?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:30 PM

You say, Alan Smith, that it is five feet in diameter. Does that mean that it's perfectly square?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:45 PM

From its shape this is almost certainly a dene hole Theye are not all that uncommon in areas with chalk near the surface. Some are quite ancient, but they were dug well into the nineteenth century and possibly even the twentieth century, to extract soft, pure chalk for spreading on the land. The bell shape is a natural enough form, since you don't want to dig a big hole until you get down to the layer you want. Traditions about dene holes are numerous (e.g. they were dug by primitive man - or as hidey holes from invasions by the Danes - see Wikipedia), but rumour and invention always gather around things of unrecorded origin. Unrecorded because everyone in agriculture at the time knew what they were and no one else ever took an interest in what the horny-handed were doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Billy Weeks
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:51 PM

Any filling in the hole is likely to be modern, as of course, is the iron cover, put there almost certainly for safety reasons after discovery of the hole. If the iron cover has a cast-in maker's name, you can at least date that within a decade or two.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:55 PM

That doesn't seem to address or explain the concrete siding, Billy Weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester,
From: Penny S.
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 04:23 PM

I hadn't mentioned deneholes because of the concrete - but if it was going down through something like Thanet Sand, someone could have made it safe that way.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 11:35 PM

Are not all deneholes made of chalk?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 01:26 AM

Hi folks
I worked in Chalk mines for years.
The fact no trace on maps can locate or tell you what you have discovered is interesting and gives me the impression that the stucture maybe..................? ww1 or ww2.

Ebbie Deneholes are made of Chalk the word come from the word Dane.
Alan smith. Its not a Denehole.

If you want to get to the bottom of this then arrange a date and I will come down we can meet up. And get to the bottom of it.
I have no fear of the unknown when it comes to being underground but caution is very important, if one values there life.

We can all sit here till the Cows come home debating what it might Be. Get down there and find out or if you want someone who is used to such Adventure. I UP FOR IT LIKE BIG TIME.. PM ME IF YOU ARE INTERESTED.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 01:32 PM

What is the connection between the square access tube and the main cylinder like? It won't help me work out what it could be, but my mind is getting irritated that it cannot visualise that bit.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM

I had a look in my two books on Underground and Subterranean Britain, and then realised I once had a book on Underground Kent. Don't know where it is - it may be in a box waiting for the move, or it may be given to a friend.

However, here's a possibly useful site.

Kent Moles

Penny - looking for more

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:30 PM

A piece from KURG's page on defensive works.

"World War I
This marked a change in the pattern of warfare since the fighting took place in the trenches of France and Belgium, with no requirement for new fortifications in Britain. It did bring in a new development, however, whereby men of the Royal Engineers began to tunnel under the enemy trenches to lay explosive charges, hence the derivation of the word 'mine'. The base depot of the Royal Engineers was at Chatham and the area was used to experiment with new techniques of mining, since the local sand and chalk was almost identical to conditions at the Front. Very few of these trial mines were recorded at the time and, although it is likely that many collapsed subsequently, some still turn up in surprising places. The latest example was discovered following a collapse in a Gillingham back garden in 1988."

The also have a page offering help.

Here's links to an exploration in Gravesend which looks a bit similar - the word soakaway pops up - no-one's mentioned that yet.

Pictures of a hole

Or follow links to recent projects, Gravesend Hole. Most pages operate out of the same address.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 02:41 PM

The site does not seem to be very up-to-date.

Here's an extract from the cesspit section.

"A common practice in parts of Kent was to knock the bottom completely out of cesspits and this would allow more to drain away into the chalk. Although this meant that they didn't need to be emptied so often, it was rather shortsighted since wells took water from the same chalk! Water from the chalk of the Medway area is still high in nitrate content for this reason. Archaeological excavation of a cesspit is not everyone's choice but analysis of the soil content can yield interesting insights into the diets of people using it.

Many cesspits would have been filled in when abandoned but some were merely covered over with a slab or wooden cover. Examples open up from time to time but they are rarely deep enough to present a danger. In some places, however, houses adapted abandoned deneholes as cesspits that were ideal since the underground space meant that they never needed emptying. The top part of the shaft was lined with bricks and arched over at the top, sometimes with a small access hole. Earthenware pipes directed the sewage into the shaft and this has caused problems in the past where the brick lining has been eroded and fallen away."

Also water cisterns.

"Another underground feature found in bigger houses was the water cistern. This was a large brick-lined chamber that was made watertight and arched over with a small access hole. Rainwater from the roof was directed into the cistern where it could be stored for future use, being softer than water drawn from a well in the chalk. Sometimes a pipe connected the cistern to a hand pump in the kitchen. Like cesspits, a number of water cisterns were merely slabbed over when abandoned but the workmanship often means that the brickwork is still sound."

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 03:33 PM

Here's another group, with a new website.

Underground Kent

I'm not quite sure by what stretch of imagination a seafort can be called underground.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Aug 09 - 06:34 PM

100, thank you

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 01:11 AM

"what stretch of imagination a seafort can be called underground"

Well, they had underground tunnels connecting various bits and storage/living rooms....

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 29 Aug 09 - 04:25 AM

Last I heard, on the Coast programme, was that the design had to take into account the shifting nature of the sandbanks - tunnels through those?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: GUEST,Alan Smith
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 05:41 PM

Hello again, all.
We have a friend who works for Medway council. He had a look at the archives and found nothing at all- there are no pipes, private or public sewers being recorded. As such, this is still a mystery.
It is not incredibly deep and I have no fear of going in there- I can't see it being unsafe.
From the inside, the walls slope upwards and inwards at the top where the square access hole rises upwards from the middle. Again, the walls are perfectly smooth and curve upwards into a domed roof.
There are no dates or any markings at all on the cast iron cover. Our friend agreed with me that the brickwork of the square entrance is relatively modern. He also said that older access holes would have had rungs or steps built into them whereas more modern ones didn't. This is due to more modern health and safety rules and that access would be gained by a tripod over the hole and a rope lowering one downwards.
It still seems that my only option is to digdownwards and keep you all updated to my findings. I appreciate the offers of help but understandably I am reluctant to invite strangers round my house to ponder over a hole in my garden! Thanks for those offers though!

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Penny S.
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 05:26 PM

Ummm.. How exactly are you getting down there?

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: MrFust
Date: 04 Sep 09 - 05:59 PM

I don't have any large ladders (not without dismantling and removing my fixed loft ladder) so I was initially lowering a step ladder down into the hole and climbing down. Now I've dug it a little deeper, that's ineffective so for now I'm relying on using upper body strength. It won't be much longer before I'll have to unbolt my loft ladder and use that instead!

Subject: RE: BS: Underground tunnels in Rochester (UK)
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 31 Oct 09 - 12:06 AM

Alan.
Your hole may not be noted on a ordinary map or indeed the deeds or plans of your house but there is a chance that it is located on a Ordinace Servey Map. I doubt having worked Chislehurst Caves for by on 25yaers that it is a Dane hole in fact I rule that out altogether. O.S.M. had to place such hidden chambers if known about on there maps in order has a reference to building ,road making etc etc. Ice Wells are mainly made up of red brick with a spiral staircase down the side and they are usually deep or the ones I(have been down are over 30ft if not more.any shallower and the effectiveness of them has a Ice well would be impaired most Ice wells are deep in order to avoid down drafts from the surface also at a certain depth you can maintain a certain temperture so I rule out a Ice Well.

I would not be surprised once you get rid of the last of the earth that you may? come across another manhole. Clearly you hole has seen little activity has you say there is no names dates or Graffiti(did I spell that right I fear not. It could be a excape shalft from some underground bunker I have seen several. The debris you are clearing could be a vain attempt to hide the lower hatch once the bunker if it is a bunker was abandoned. and the top hatch is usually covered by a layer of Earth and possibly grass seeded to hide the outer iron plated hatch. On most excape shafts exspecally MOD. or army or deep in Deep bomb Magazines there were two hatches to most excape shafts and there would not be any piping or window holes or anything remotely like it . It would appear once found from the surface to look like a doomed chamber.

I fear you back garden could hide an old bomb Magazine or deep underground explosive storage depot. Is there any reference to anything like that in your area Richard Bridge is a learned Man on the area in q00stion. I nput the question to him?
Kind regards Pierre Le Chapeau.