BS: Disgusting European socialism

Subject: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Peter T.
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:21 PM

Joe Conaston today in Salon.com:


Europeans treat healthcare as a public good and a human right, which means that they spend billions of tax dollars annually to insure everyone (although they spend less overall on the medical sector than we do). What most Americans probably still don't know is that those European medical systems are highly varied, with private medicine and insurance playing different roles in different countries. Expensive as universal quality care has inevitably become, as technology improves and populations age, the Europeans broadly believe in their social security systems -- because they provide competitive advantage as well as moral superiority.

From Europe's perspective, the same can be said of the support its governments provide to families, from the entitlements available to pregnant women and new mothers and fathers, to universal child care and tuition-free higher education, to the special benefits that assist single parents. The challenges that working families face in a globalizing world where both parents work are mitigated by policies designed to encourage balance between home and workplace and adequate attention to children.

These "socialist" measures to protect families are far more effective, of course, than all of the Sunday shouting from American pulpits about the Biblical way of life. Perhaps the leadership of the religious right, still obsessed with stigmatizing gay couples, should take note.

To Americans unfamiliar with the "social market" approach to public policy, the specifics of the European programs are stunning. In France, for instance, women are entitled to 16 weeks of paid maternity leave following the birth of their first and second child -- and 26 weeks paid leave following the birth of each subsequent child, at 100-percent of their pre-maternity wages. Men are entitled to 11 days of fully-paid paternity leave, and both mom and dad can take advantage of an additional three years of parental leave with lower benefits. Childcare is subsidized by the state as early as 18 months and by the time children are 30 months old, they are guaranteed a place in France's free public preschools, which are staffed by well-paid teachers with graduate training in early childhood education. Similar systems and benefits can be found in countries across Western Europe (with the exception of the United Kingdom) -- and the effects on educational performance can be seen in many comparative studies. They're happier, too, by the way (and evangelicals please note that the divorce rate in Norway has fallen by six percent over the past decade, possibly as a result of reduced pressure on families).

In the Nordic countries, benefits are even more generous in certain respects. Sweden provides parents with 15 months of paid parental leave that can be divided as mom and dad think best, and they also can choose to work six hours per day, at pro-rated pay, until their children reach their eighth birthday. (In other words, one or both parents can be home every day when school gets out.)

Like most of their continental neighbors, the nations of the north provide free or highly subsidized, high-quality child care that begins as soon as new mothers return to work. Nearly every child between the ages of three and six is enrolled in the public child care system, because it is staffed by well-paid and well-trained workers overseen by the national ministry of education. The results include not only better socialization and education of young children, but far lower poverty rates, especially among single mothers. And the security of European families is enhanced as well by the universal provision of decent old-age pensions and health care, which relieves the financial burden of supporting elderly parents while trying to raise children. So does free or low-cost university education.

It is true that globalization, aging and immigration have imposed severe pressure on the budgets of European countries, and the trend of increasing benefits that continued until a decade ago has been reversed. But it is also undeniable that despite those pressures, public and political support for the social market economy remains strong across Europe, and that free-market fundamentalism is a thoroughly discredited alternative. The old argument that the social market is unsustainable and hinders growth was never persuasive on close inspection. And the old expectation that outmoded European systems would eventually collapse into imitating ours has been swept away, along with the rest of the Washington consensus. Now perhaps we can honestly consider what America might learn from them.

And that's before we talk about housing stock, wages, and holidays!

No wonder no one wants it in North America. Who knows what such evil would spawn?

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: gnu
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:30 PM

Compassion?

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: bobad
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 04:44 PM

"Who knows what such evil would spawn?"

It might spawn a more equitable distribution of wealth and we couldn't have that, could we?

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: kendall
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 05:03 PM

Now look, how in the hell can we afford coverage for all and still be able to build weapons of mass destruction to intimidate the whole world?

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:02 PM

Not to mention bailing out idiots and crooks?

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Emma B
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:09 PM

hey you Americans don't have the copyright on those kind of folks!

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Amos
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:17 PM

Of course we don't. It's not as though we invented them. In fact we thought we were coming here to escape them!!! They must have followed on the nextboat over.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 06:36 PM

My first response was to say "why is it disgusting - looks ok to me", but then I did a little web research. Nothing, however desirable, comes free. It isn't easy to get comparative figures on tax rates, since different countries tax different things in different ways. I'm not totally confident of the validity of these figures, but at least one site I found says that the maximum income tax in the US is 35%, that of France is 40%, and the Nordic countries range from 48% to 55%. "Conventional wisdom" says that average taxes are much higher in Scandinavia. We (in the US) think that our taxes are already too high, and I doubt if we are ready to pay for benefits on the European model. And yes, I am perfectly aware that you can get a lot of health care for the cost of an unnecessary war.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 07:40 PM

We would IF we knew it would guarantee all of those benefits, Art, imo. It would make life so much easier and humane. Goddess forbid the You-Benighted_States should ever commit to such measures, though. I do have hopes now that Obama is in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: number 6
Date: 03 Apr 09 - 10:01 PM

"Now look, how in the hell can we afford coverage for all and still be able to build weapons of mass destruction to intimidate the whole world?"

and let's add on another factor tho this statement of kendall's .......... and give away trillions to the big fat corrupt bankers.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: jacqui.c
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 08:50 AM

We (in the US) think that our taxes are already too high, and I doubt if we are ready to pay for benefits on the European model.

But if that meant that you didn't have to pay through the nose for medical insurance that might or might not cover you for a catastrophic illness would that make it more palatable? Or to know that every person in the USA would be eligible for health care, not based on the ability to pay?

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 09:52 AM

Opening Quote: "No wonder no one wants it in North America. Who knows what such evil would spawn?"

The last time I looked at my map Canada took up about half of North America. The problem here is that capialism is pecking away at a socialized medical system, and for profit companies are horning in where they are not wanted.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 12:58 PM

Artbrooks-
We're already spending some $7000 per capita per year for health care. I doubt if projected tax increases would come near that.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: artbrooks
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:04 PM

Dunno, Dick, but there's a lot more in the pie than health care. There is an awful lot of waste and obscene profit in that figure, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Amergin
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 01:49 PM

"The last time I looked at my map Canada took up about half of North America. The problem here is that capialism is pecking away at a socialized medical system, and for profit companies are horning in where they are not wanted."

Yeah but we Americans keep wanting to forget that embarrassment to the North....Canadia....

I have little faith that things will change under Obama....all I see is him surrounding himself with the same crooks and corporate dogs from previous administrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 03:46 PM

Shit some people still want to return Ferenganor to its roots.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Apr 09 - 11:55 PM

Artbrooks-
You're right, of course. But it still is what we're paying for health care. And not getting as good health care as we should.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Leadfingers
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:26 AM

One problem you seem to have in USA is that there are still far too many people who immediately put ANY mention of Socialism in the same pocket as Totalitarian Communism !

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: bobad
Date: 05 Apr 09 - 06:31 AM

"One problem you seem to have in USA is that there are still far too many people who immediately put ANY mention of Socialism in the same pocket as Totalitarian Communism !"

That's the influence of Big Business, which controls the politicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 06:32 AM

Just a note of caution for our USA friends here. More to do with language than services.

Socialism and social care are not seen as the same thing here in most of Europe. The British NHS (healthcare) system is free at point of care, the cost is (this year) equivalent to £1350 per head of population to run and the universal access makes it a social model, but I would be loathe to call it socialist. After all, the UK conservative party have run it, even under Thatcher, and its success and high quality outcomes mean that although governments tinker with it, (it is a political punchbag..) nobody sees the point in dismantling it.

Just that whenever I am in The USA, and somebody uses the word socialism, it seems to be a byword for communism. Here in The UK, big business wants in on health and social care, as a provider, rather than condemn it as a failed ideology.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:08 AM

Or, to put it simply:-

Socialist (UK) = Liberal (US)
Communist (UK) = Socialist (US)
Liberal (UK) = Something completely different, neither Conservative nor Sociaslist, nor Communist (or, neither Republican nor Democrat nor Socialist (US).

Easy-peasy innit?

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 08:25 AM

We (in the US) had the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as our main adversary for a long time, justifiably or not. Considering the levels that rhetoric reached between the early 1920s and 1991 (with a brief break for WW2), it really isn't surprising that socialism and communism came to mean the same thing in the minds of many Americans, and that anyone who was advocating a rational socialist system (e.g., Pete Seeger) was seen as a Soviet sympathizer. Not that the Soviets ever actually practiced communism, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:24 AM

artbrooks wrote --

We (in the US) had the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics as our main adversary for a long time -- it really isn't surprising that socialism and communism came to mean the same thing in the minds of many Americans

Just you? European countries had the same experience & many were effectively occupied by them. Isn't it more that many US citizens are suspicious & fearful of difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:29 AM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:33 AM

Sorry - rudely brief. Please read my post. Americans equate communism and socialism because our leaders were telling us - over a seventy year period - that they were the same thing. During the same period of time, European nations had non-communist (or non-Soviet, if you will) socialist parties and could readily see that there were differences between them.

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: 3refs
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 09:34 AM

According to "The Powers That Be", I'm lead to believe, that here in Canada, after all the taxes, food and lodging for the family, I'm left with about 20% of my income for other uses. I choose not to say disposable income, because I usually have something to show for it and try not to piss too much of it up against the tree! (I call it collateral, my wife calls it $600 bucks for skates to keep my feet happy!) For the sake of argument, that leaves me(family)with about $200 a week for whatever. Or in other terms, of the 5 days per week we work, we get to use one of those days for "stuff", the rest we have to "give" to somebody! So that allows me one day to screw up and one day to recover, then back to work. I have no issues that! I don't mind getting nickled and dimed in taxes as opposed to getting slapped with something I can't afford like the frequent trips to the boo boo ward because one of my kids decides not to wear a face shield in a hockey game! Without health care no new skates, no 4X4, no motorcycle and no golf. No longer happy!

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 05:20 PM

One of the factors that keeps health care in the You-Benighted-States (I love that, kat!) so asininely and unnecessarily high is that it's covered by private insurance companies, and apparently large numbers of the people running these companies are concentrating too hard on trying to keep their hands in the till while they have their heads up their asses, and they miss what's really going on.

I have had two power (electric, battery operated) wheelchairs over the past nineteen years, which I use when out and about the neighborhood, shopping, or going to appointments nearby, and sometimes a bit beyond (up to 25 mile range on one battery charge, but I've never pushed it that far).

When the first set of batteries showed signs of wearing out, I called Care Medical Supplies, where I (actually, my health insurance company) bought the chair in the first place, and asked how much a new set of batteries would cost. Can't remember the exact figure, but it was in excess of $125 apiece (it takes two 12-volt deep-cycle batteries), so $250. That seemed a bit excessive to me, so I called my nephew who worked at an outfit that sold all kinds of batteries. He came over, removed the wheelchair's cowling, and looked at the batteries.

"These are the same kind of marine batteries you find in boats," he told me. "You, know, Chris-Crafts and such. They run about $80 for a pair. I can get them for you cheaper than that!" So he did.

Recently, I had to replace the batteries in my newer chair. Access to the battery compartment was a bit tricky, so I figured it would be easier to have a service technician come over from Care Medical and replace them ($60 for a service call) and I would watch him carefully to see how he got at the batteries. Besides, I learned that my health insurance company would now spring for replacement batteries in power chairs. So this time, I'd see how it was done on this new chair, and next time, maybe call my nephew.

So I got the batteries replaced. I also learned that it wasn't nearly as tricky to get at the batteries than I'd been told. Also—it was the same kind of 12-volt deep-cycle batteries. The $40 apiece variety.

Care Medical nailed my insurance company over $500 for the batteries!!

Some years back, I asked one of the service technicians from Care Medical why medical equipment costs so damned much. For example, if you take a look at a manual wheelchair, it consists of a pair of 24" wheels, a pair of smaller wheels (castors, they call them), and a frame that's really no more complicated than a bicycle frame. A standard, off-the-shelf Schwinn bicycle will run you around $150 to $200. Yet a halfway decent wheelchair will cost ten times that much! "Why?" sez I.

"Because," sez the service technician, "the outfits that make and sell medical equipment know that, more than likely, the tab is going to be picked up by some insurance company."

"But," sez I, " what if you don't have insurance?"

"Well," he sez, "then you're kind of S.O.L. The whole system is based on the idea that insurance companies have deep pockets, and more often than not, they're clueless. By the way," he concluded, "you didn't hear that from me!"

This got me checking into the actual cost of a bunch of other medical medical and orthopedic gear compared to what the patient or the insurance company is charged for it, which was a real eye-popper, but this post is already getting pretty long. Suffice it to say that the overall cost of medical care would be one helluva lot less were it not for the egregious inability of insurance companies to pay attention to what's important.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Disgusting European socialism
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 06 Apr 09 - 05:45 PM

Insurance companies make their profit on a margin between the cost of the service and a healthy markup percentage. If the service cost is high so is the markup so they win and win again. They can then pay a big bonus to their fat cats. Somewhere along the line the little guy covers the cost. Competing companies are pissing in the same pot so there is really no competition. The little guy probably is captive in a need for insurance protection so he can't complain or they will cut him off. Free enterprise capitalism working as it was intended!