BS: American captain rescued from pirates

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Apr 09 - 05:42 AM

Another huge difference between US and European methods.
US is bringing a Somali pirate for trial in US.
If we did that he would have to be granted leave to remain in Britain because returning anyone to Somalia breaches their human rights!

---

For later discussion, please see threads crosslinked above.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 08:31 PM

Ye-a-a-a-h, ..What if Little Hawk is on one of them...using Chongo's ID, as not to be detected by one of the pirates, on a salted out laptop???..Should we sink him..or not?

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 08:29 PM

If an officer on the bridge knew how to use a rifle, with a searchlight backing him up, how close would an overmanned skiff get?

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 06:23 PM

"
I don't see why they don't simpy sink the mother ship,.."

remember, no matter who is on it, the mother ship is a stolen ship....owned by someone. The pirates did not start with their own fleet.

(I'm sure glad some of the clever folks posting suggestions here aren't making the decisions in this matter)

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 03:40 PM

"I have always wondered why the term HIJACKERS has been carefully avoided by goverment[sic] and media when talking about piracy."

I would think that the terms piracy and pirate (especially in this maritime context) are specific to the crimes currently being perpetrated by the criminals in question. Aaargh!!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: meself
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:07 PM

Oh - okay, I think I get it: the original crew IS on the mother ship, but no other hostages have been added ...

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: meself
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:05 PM

'The only hostages onboard the "mother-ship" will be the crew of that vessel, the skiffs having successfully attacked and taken over their target vessel need the crew of that target vessel onboard to operate the ship and keep it running. There have been no instances of a ship being ransomed separately from its crew, so the crews are not on the "mother-ships".'

Did I miss something here? Aren't you saying in the first sentence that the original crew IS indeed on the 'mother ship', and in the second that they are not?

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 12:01 PM

Good post, Teribus!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 11:33 AM

Taking a look at the areas where attacks have occurred there would appear to be some misconception about how these pirates operate. Immediately after the attack on the Maersk Alabama another US aid ship was attacked unsuccessfully, and three other vessels were attacked successfully one bulk carrier and two Egyptian fishing vessels. Of those three vessels taken the Bulk Carrier will be ransomed and the fishing vessels will become replacement "mother-ships". No better disguise on the worlds oceans than a fishing vessel. While nearly all other vessels are in obvious transit from point A to point B, fishing vessels can loiter for extended periods in an area without arousing suspicion, the pirate "mother-ship" can hide amongst the fishing "fleet" unnoticed. Then as fuel and provisions run out the pirates take over another "mother-ship" from amongst its neighbours.

The only hostages onboard the "mother-ship" will be the crew of that vessel, the skiffs having successfully attacked and taken over their target vessel need the crew of that target vessel onboard to operate the ship and keep it running. There have been no instances of a ship being ransomed separately from its crew, so the crews are not on the "mother-ships".

Q-Ships were never really all that effective; your best bet would be to send one down there that would tempt the pirates to take it as a "mother-ship". However it has no deterrent value and relies purely on luck, you can hardly cruise around with a big neon sign with an arrow flashing "attack me" on it.

Bubblyrat's idea is a good one with regard to aerial surveillance coupled with a rapid strike capability. This capability could be provided by UAV's. The convoy idea works only in one direction as you have a natural assembly point at the eastern end of the Suez Canal. After they have passed the Horn of Africa the whole thing falls apart as the vessels disperse – take a look at the incident plots. Convoys were effective because all the vessels in the convoy were sailing from one point of departure to a common destination, that is not the case here for east bound traffic.

To eradicate the problem you must hit their bases onshore.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 02:34 AM

'.....The Pirates have made between 60 to 100 million dollars so far...'

Maybe, if they had a lobbyist, on Obama's cabinet, they could triple that!....at least!!!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 02:10 AM

Exactly, thats why non lethal weapons such as the microwave cannon etc. make a sensible deterent. Not only that, there is no proof what stopped them.

The Pirates have made between 60 to 100 million dollars so far.
There are certainly pirate kingpins. Getting the kingpins to fight each other is certainly an easy thing to do.

Getting back hostages is almost never easy.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Apr 09 - 01:45 AM

I have always wondered why the term HIJACKERS has been carefully avoided by goverment and media when talking about piracy.




\Cool coincidence with thye name Bainbridge.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 04:55 PM

So far France, India, and the US have taken some action. But you're right, Mick, anything anybody does now will not do much to help the hostages they already have.

          I suspect they realize they're doomed if they turn the hostages lose, so it's kind of a stalemate.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 09:15 AM

Are the "shoot first, ask questions later" crowd giving any thought to the fate of the 200 to 300 hostages once you back this group of thugs into a corner by blasting them to the skies? When you leave no options, there will be sad families around the globe.

Not that I am advocating much in the way of negotiations, but this is not as simplistic as you make it, at least not until we get the innocents out of there. In order to end the problem, first a coalition must be built among the nations that are affected. And I am not talking about one of these coalitions where countries say they are with us, but not willing to commit troops and arms. There must be a committment to act in concert. Then an Entebbe style raid, with first rate intel, planning, and execution, understanding that there will be casualties among troops and hostages. Once they have no hostages, then and only then, can we elevate the conflict at sea. And at that point there should be a clear message. Commit an act of piracy and you will be destroyed.

The real long term solution lies in encouraging the establishment of a stable government in Somalia. And that is a years long process which, again, must be supported, really supported, by all nations. The USA cannot act unilaterally. If the other nations won't support that, then our obigation is to protect our own shipping and leave others to protect theirs.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 08:53 AM

"Maybe that's where they have their 200 hostages ... ?"


             meself - Yes, I heard on the news last night that they do hold the hostages on the mother ships, so sinking them is not really an option.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: MaineDog
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 08:45 AM

This is stupid. We have known what to do with pirates for centuries now . KEEL-HAUL THEM FIRST, ASK QUESTIONS LATER!
md

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: bubblyrat
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 06:32 AM

What you want is a Nimitz-load of Douglas Skyraiders on patrol.Then,when a skipper calls in to say he is being attacked,the nearest Skyraider (as used for COIN in Vietnam) goes in and strafes the pirate skiffs with her Browning fifties.Otherwise, the only way to really solve the problem is to institute a convoy system for all mercantile vessels transiting those waters,although the idea of air-lifting small detachments of Marines by helo to US and allied ships appeals,too------surely it should not prove to be too difficult logistically,and would provide some useful live-firing exercises, no ??

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:38 AM

Do you think the Prez might change the name from 'The War on Piracy' to
"The Polite Invitation to Pre-occupy the Interupters of Maritime Cruises?"

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Peace
Date: 15 Apr 09 - 12:34 AM

Sink them, too. Use a chain gun and nail them at the water line.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Alice
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:10 PM

There is more than one "mother ship", and when they are sunk, they just buy more of them.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Claymore
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:52 PM

I'm personally inclined to the Q-ship idea; a decoy vessal looking fat and slow, then open up with a quad fifty, and nothing but bloody springs on the bottom of a flaming boat...

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: meself
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:46 PM

Maybe that's where they have their 200 hostages ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 09:28 PM

I don't see why they don't simpy sink the mother ship, that would get rid of the scum on board, and there wouldn't be any place for the raiders to retreat to.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 09:17 PM

The path toward escalation is clear, so having achieved this measure of success, it would be nice if we could achieve a real end to the piracy. Unfortunately there is no one to negotiate with.

So as nice as it is to have a 'victory', there is no way to end the piracy without a hell of a lot more surveillance and more rapid resonse.

Stay tuned, more to come.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,MarkS (on the road)
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 08:48 PM

We need to make a slight variation to the first verse of the Marine Corps Hymn.
"From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Somalieee"
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: meself
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 11:27 AM

Oh, Elcid Barrett cried the town,
(How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now),
For twenty brave men, all fishermen, who
Would make for him the Antelope's crew.

God damn them all!
I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold,
We'd fire no guns;
Shed no tears -
But I'm a broken man on a Halifax pier,
The last of Barrett's privateers.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: meself
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:58 AM

"But it would be wrong to compare them with the thugs from Somalia."

The distinction is a little too subtle for this bear-of-little-brain.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:57 AM

These pirates are not impoverished! Their country may well be but these bastards are living the high life and are becoming roll models.
Like a pimp or drug dealer in a ghetto driving a flashy car youth see them as an example of how to improve their own existance.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: bubblyrat
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:49 AM

The next step should obviously be an Operation to rescue the 200 captives,followed by a concentrated bombardment of the Somali towns and harbours from which the pirates operate.
                   English "Pirates" attacking Spanish ships,apart from a few famous Outlaws,were, in the main (no pun intended), "Privateers", civilian-manned armed vessels licensed by the English Crown to attack,board & sink or (preferably) capture enemy ships in time of war---and England spent a Dickens of a long time at war with the Spanish (and the French).The advantage was that the crews,being non-military,could always be hanged for "piracy" after the war,IF it proved to be politically expeditious !! But it would be wrong to compare them with the thugs from Somalia.
                Well done ,America!! Now let's see something REALLY impressive, Mr Obama !!

Subject: RE: BS: Pirates capture Saudi oil tanker
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 07:45 AM

Alice-

It's OK if you wish to hi-jack this thread. After all that's what pirates do all the time. ;~)

However, I do agree that I should ask Joe to change this thread title to a more general Somali pirate title. There is some good discussion in this thread, some inane discussion as well, and a lot of history.

Meanwhile business for the Somali pirates goes on as usual with the recent capture of three ships, one large bulk cargo carrier and two Egyptian fishing boats: Click here for report

"Undeterred by U.S. and French hostage rescues that killed seven bandits, Somali pirates brazenly hijacked three more ships in the Gulf of Aden, the waterway that's become the focal point of the world's fight against piracy. The latest trophy for the pirates was the M.V. Irene E.M., a Greek-managed bulk carrier sailing from the Middle East to South Asia, said Noel Choong, who heads the International Maritime Bureau's piracy reporting center in Kuala Lumpur."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:13 AM

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 01:12 AM

Frankly, If some poor impoverished, down on his luck, third worlder, was holding me hostage, pointing a gun on me, on a boat somewhere...I think it downright welcome, if a bullet popped him..and right now!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Peace
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 12:13 AM

"can someone explain to me why pirates should get the death penalty while some pervert who tortures and murders a child gets life in prison with the possibility of parole?"

I can't.

I hear you, Kendall. I know that being armed (carrying a weapon) is against the law, but truth is that in certain sections of certain cities I do. The cops bust me I get my ass kicked in court. That's better imo than getting it kicked on the street and ending up dead.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 09:50 PM

Rig-

Yawn!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Riginslinger
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 09:42 PM

Sean Hannity says that Barack Obama was in hiding all throughout the ordeal, and just stepped forward to take the credit when everything ended well.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:32 PM

"... a ship is full of potential weapons".   Sorry, this is a half-truth. More significant is the fact that the pirates did not in fact want to kill sailors--they were after hostages and cargo, and dead sailors tend to lose their value as hostages. They may have even planned to force the sailors to sail the ship to their chosen destination.

Also more significant is the fact that Capt. Phillips offered himself as a hostage--an extremely valuable prize for the pirates. It was a big gamble. We should all be glad he won it. The WSJ editorial page says it would have not criticized Obama if Capt. Phillips had been killed in a rescue attempt.   Would anybody here?--that would be an interesting question.

But if the pirates had just wanted to take over the ship, regardless of the human cost to sailors on the ship, all the "potential weapons" would not have prevented a substantial body count of unarmed sailors. Anybody who disagrees has possibly seen "Key Largo" too many times. I'm a big Bogie fan and it's a great film--but it is a film.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 01:18 PM

The lifeboat had a fibreglass dome. Infrared sensors (gunsights) would have been able to see through it.
In any case congratulations to the US Navy on a job well done!

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: bobad
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:45 PM

Apparently it was nightime so they were shooting in the dark, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:43 PM

Mick--that's why they practice...practice...practice. It often works to get to Carnegie Hall, and it works in thwarting bad guys. Let's not carp on what might have been.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:36 PM

......and by the way, they were shooting through a window.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:35 PM

Notes from another life:

The shot required in this instance, while at a very close range, is not the piece of cake being described. It is a shot that operators train long and hard for. It is used when one is taking out armed guards on an infiltration mission, or as in this case, in hostage situations where a bad guy has a finger on a trigger. In both cases what one is seeking to do is sever the spinal cord so that the brain doesn't fire off random electrical pulses that would cause the trigger finger to twitch and pull the trigger. Usually the best place to accomplish this is behind the ear, where you take out, or break the connection, between the brain and the rest of the body. A simple headshot is not the preferred shot in these circumstances because the brain, even when badly damaged, will send out random pulses. It takes a very skillful shooter to accomplish this. Combine this with the fact that this team fired three shots simultaneously, and did it on a rolling deck with increasingly bad weather, and you get an idea of the skill involved, even at a mere 30 yards. The Captain owes his life to the best training anywhere, and some very skilled shooters. If one of the three misses, he likely would not be here.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:25 PM

Millions for defense but not one penny for tribute" is incorrectly attributed to Thomas Jefferson. Actually the quote was made by Rep. Robert Goodloe Harper, chairman of the committee on ways and means in Congress, on June 18, 1798. President John Adams had sent representatives to France to try to keep the US from going to war with that country. French and British warships had been attacking Americans ships at sea and claimed the right to seize American vessels. Three French diplomats offered to negotiate a treaty if the US would pay a bribe (tribute) to the French foreign minister, Tallyrand. This episode became known in history as the XYZ affair because the French diplomats were referred to by these initials rather than their names. The affair generated anger in the US, which prompted Rep. Harper's famous words.
http://blogs.chron.com/nickanderson/arch...

For further discussion of the wording used by Pinckney and of the quotation frequently but mistakenly attributed to Pinckney—"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute," actually said by Robert Goodloe Harper—see The Home Book of Quotations, ed. Burton Stevenson, 10th ed., p. 63 (1967) and "Notes and Queries," South Carolina Historical and Genealogical Magazine, vol. 1, pp. 100–103, 178–79 (1901).
http://www.bartleby.com/73/804.html

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:14 PM

"Millions for defense and not a penny for tribute".

I remember the quote. Just not who said it or when. But it's relevant now.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:08 PM

GUEST,Keith A o Hertford--

"Millions for defense, but not one cent for tribute," Robert Goodloe Harper.

This maxim has served the United States well for 200 years. You guys over there can enable piracy...we fight it. That's a major difference between America and Europe that I'm proud of.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 09:43 AM

"IMO, pirate ships should be sunk. Period."

Sounds good to me...but if Kendall is right, maritime laws would need to be changed to allow ships to defend themselves. There is just too much ocean to patrol and too many pirates. The only other alternative is to invade Somalia....and we have some bad experiences with that.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:30 AM

The root of the problem lies in poverty and the lack of any sort of Somali government besides war lords (i.e., criminal gangs). But if someone attacks you you don't ask if their rich or poor or in-between: you defend yourself.

By the way, when English pirates were taking Spanish ships the Spanish used convoys accompanied by military ships. Worked pretty well.

I wonder why that isn't being done, at least until the merchant ships are out of the danger zones?

Overall, I agree with Peace.

As for shooting them at 30 meters -- shucks, that's point-blank range. The trick is compensating for the movements of the ship and the lifeboat.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:23 AM

The pirate who was on the American vessel had been injured with a knife. He boarded asking for medical help and asked to stay - he had had enough. 16 years old. I would love to know his story.

can someone explain to me why pirates should get the death penalty while some pervert who tortures and murders a child gets life in prison with the possibility of parole?

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:19 AM

The threats of retaliation from the pirate leaders safe ashore might be expected. It may be bluster or it may be realized in more bloodshed. However, I can't help but think that these Somalis have learned new respect for our sailors and naval forces, and that may be useful in the long run.

I was quite impressed with the measured steps that were taken by our navy during this entire process, as opposed to jumping in guns blazing. It is regrettable that the pirates did not surrender before the final confrontation. They were armed and dangerous, and quite desperate when cornered.

I am pleased that the captain survived the final shootout; he is a brave man.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: kendall
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:02 AM

Peace, the problem, as I see it is that it is a violation of international law to carry arms unless you are a military vessel. Private security forces are illegal and expensive.
If an American ship was to dock in any foreign country they could be searched and any fire arms could be confiscated.

Some time ago there was a cruise ship that had a weapon in the form of a high pitched sound that was extremely painful to would be pirates. It is no doubt very effective and very expensive, but cheaper than millions in ransom.

Looks like another example of what happens when the law abiding citizen complies with the law banning guns and the crooks are armed to the teeth.

Subject: RE: BS: American captain rescued from pirates
From: GUEST,Keith A o Hertford
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:13 AM

This is talked about very differently here.
The fact that the pirates have never killed a hostage is always made prominent.
We are always told that it is not the pirates' fault. They are victims of poverty. What they need is aid.
Just a different perspective.
Europeans always pay them off.
keith.