BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?

Subject: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Arnie
Date: 27 May 10 - 10:09 AM

The Somali gangsters holding the Chandlers have broadcast another video in which Mr & Mrs Chandler ask the new UK Gov't to consider paying a ransom for their release. They've been held for 7 months now, frequently separated and living in the most spartan conditions in the Somali outback. The Foreign Office keep bleating on about not rewarding anyone who captures UK citizens as this will only encourage more kidnappings. Will it really? The Somali pirates were not put off capturing the Chandlers despite the Foreign Office policy. Furthermore, it was reported that a British warship stood by and witnessed the pirates taking the Chandlers from their yacht - the navy didn't want to intervene in case the Chandlers were put at risk! I would think that they are at more risk by being held by a gang of pirates who will not want to hold them much longer if there's no chance of anyone coughing up the ransom. I'm sure they'd accept a smaller ransom of say, half a million, which is more or less what some council chief execs pay themselves these days. I know that the UK is technically broke at present, but I think we could spare a tiny percentage of the £5 billion that's being saved through scrapping the national ID card scheme. I say pay up and bring the Chandlers back despite the faceless mandarins at the F&CO!

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 May 10 - 07:27 PM

To quote my Favourite song Writer - Send The Marines !

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 May 10 - 03:56 AM

I am pretty sure it is not a question of the money or the government being skint. It is a difficult situation they face - Do they sacrifice this couple for the good of the many? If they pay the ransom it will send the message that this type of crime does pay and put countless others at risk. If they don't pay the price they put this poor couple at risk. I don't know what I would do but I know it is a no win situation. Maybe Leadfingers is right?

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 28 May 10 - 05:11 AM

There are a number of difficulties for all to face... not least of all the Chandlers. If the money is paid... as someone already mentioned.. it sends the message that kidnap/ransom does pay. Where is the money ultimately going... is it for greed of to fuel terrorism? Who will be next and how far from the area will it be?? One payment could be the seed that develops into the mushroom. On the other hand, as a Christian, Jesus told the parable of the lost sheep, where the shepherd went out of his way to get the one back. To get the one (sorry two) back, should we send the Marines? Should we send an elite force? Have they already been sent?
I guess we will have to wait and see what happens..... and perhaps more importantly in this unforgiving world... who will actually get the blame if they die... that should stay with the pirates but I guess the Government or some other authority will be scapegoated.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Arnie
Date: 28 May 10 - 06:52 AM

Sending in the Marines sounds like a good option, until you look back at what happened when the French sent in their equivalent of the Marines to rescue two hostages - they managed to shoot dead one of the hostages! I understand the arguement about not paying ransoms, but other countries have paid up to get back their ships and crew, so why not the UK? If the Somali pirates get an opportunity to hijack another British boat, they will do so whatever the UK policy on ransoms. Also, the evidence suggests that the money is not used to sponsor terrorism. A large number of expensive villas have sprung up in the pirates' home province and luxury cars have appeared in the streets - that's where most of the ransom money goes. Obviously some money will be used to buy more arms, but the pirates seem to have no difficulty getting hold of weaponry anyway. The Somali journo who interviewed the Chandlers has said that he fears for their lives if the pirates deduce that no ransom will be forthcoming - is that really a price worth paying for some Foreign Office dogma?

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: gnomad
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 09:16 AM

They are free At the moment no indication whether a ransom was paid. I do hope not, as such payments can only add to the likelihood of further kidnaps.

MrC was on the radio just now, he sounded as OK as might be expected, given what they have undergone. Nice to hear some good news once in a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:07 PM

The pirates are going strong; the latest is a large freighter with 26 Chinese crewmen aboard.
Currently Somali pirates hold 20 vessels and 500 individuals.

In another thread some time ago, I jokingly recommended investing in pirate stock; it is a growth industry.

Look on Ebay for Somali tee shirts.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 03:30 PM

It's an odd country, the US got their ass kicked in 92/94, and nobody seems to be able to go in and wipe out these pirates either.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 04:16 PM

If I owned a ship, I would defend it. Rocket launchers are cheap in comparison. Are the logistics or legalities a problem in that regard?

On the other hand, re sending in the marines... well, only if they have the authority to tell the pirates they have ONE choice, that being surrender and live or die... no surrender... NO prisoners. Immediate execution with extreme predjudice. Fish food and good riddance.

Personally, I like the no prisoners thing in either case. But, that's kinda harsh I suppose. I mean, they are just trying to buy new shoes for their kids, right? Just trying to make an honest living in a world gone mad? Surely we should sympathize with their plight?

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 04:30 PM

The story is that the pirates either settled for $300,000 "for expenses," or $1 million was paid, mostly by the Somali 'diaspora'.
The story also says that some time ago $450,000 was dropped from a plane to free the couple, but negotiations continued.
Associated Press, November 14, 2010.

The pirates use small, fast skiffs, well-armed, and converge on the prospects. In a vast ocean, the international efforts only catch the unwary. Some have compared the piracy to the efficiency of mafia operations.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 04:33 PM

Q.... radar and rocket launchers. Problem solved.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 05:09 PM

Yes, the pirate skiffs are fitted with both. They have GPS.
For the hostages, onshore they have hired caterers to cook for hostages and feed them. Some small whalers also are used by the pirates.

Lynn Pascoe, speaking for the UN political affairs group, said pirates were keeping ahead of international efforts to control them.
"Somali Pirates Outpace Crackdown," Nov. 10, 2010, Aljazeera.net

Something of the efficiency of pirate operations is mentioned in the material at this site:
http://www.somalipirate.com/history

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 05:16 PM

Sorry if I misread anything above, but...

Q... "Yes, the pirate skiffs are fitted with both."

?

I do not understand.

Was my post not clear that the ships should take these pirates out with rockets before they get close?

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 10 - 05:39 PM

Oh, sure, fire on a small boat and kill some innocent fishermen from the Seychelles, etc.
Naval ships must identify before attacking.

Merchant ships do not carry rockets or sophisticated armament, hence cannot fight back. It has been proposed that armed sailors or contract squads be put aboard the ships, but the large number of ships makes this unfeasible.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Arnie
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 06:28 AM

Reports today that a first money-drop of around £1/2million was parachuted to the pirates in the summer. This was supposed to be the negotiated sum to free the Chandlers. Due to widespread media coverage however, the pirates reckoned they could make even more money and reneged on the agreement. Another payment of possibly £1/4 million has now been made and this has finally lead to the the hostage release. Thinking of the poor aid worker in Afghanistan last month, we can only thank goodness the SAS or Marines never went in!

The Chandler's yacht is back in the UK and the Chandlers are already talking about going off to sea again. Only this time I suspect they will be avoiding East Africa! Back home today to a cold but sunny UK.

Rather than patrol the whole ocean up to the Seychelles, why don't the naval task-force simply patrol the Somali coast? If Flogging Joey could blockade East Kent a couple of hundred years ago, then I'm sure today's warships could prevent armed fishing boats leaving the Somali coast. It may be a long coastline but sufficient helicopters should be able to cover a few hundred miles. Just a thought.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 07:21 AM

It's good to see the couple free and alive, whatever the ins or outs of the ransom and who paid for what, what ever possessed them to go sailing in or near dangerous waters where Somali pirates had ambushed and killed the occupants of a boat not long before.

Total foolishness.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 10:50 AM

They sailed thousands of miles to avoid the Somali coast, and were actually taken on their way from the Seychelles to Tanzania. They were a long way from Somali waters,and theoretically should have been safe, but the pirates seem to operate in most of the Indian Ocean now.
Here is a map of the route they sailed, to stay away from the Somali coast.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 01:05 PM

The Somali coast is some 1800 miles long. How would someone in a helicopter tell if a boat is in normal trade or fishing, or in illegal enterprise?
Moreover, some reports of the pirate boats being provisioned by vessels that seem to be in peaceful pursuits.

The entire Arabian Sea and northern Indian Ocean, from Africa to Arabia to India, is subject to actions by the pirates.

http://ww.geographicguide.com/africa-maps/indianocean.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 03:51 PM

Q... "Oh, sure, fire on a small boat and kill some innocent fishermen from the Seychelles, etc."

Ahhhh, they come at you and will not alter course when told to do so? It ain't rocket science.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:24 PM

gnu-

There probably are already enough "loose cannons" rolling around the decks of ships out in the Indian Ocean at this point without adding more.

I'm also pleased that the Chandlers were finally released, rather than sacrificed for some philosophical principle advocated on the Mudcat Forum. They did chart a course which at the time appeared reasonably safe from Somali pirate attack.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:33 PM

Owners of larger ships should carry a trained armed team on board when traveling in that region, it would work out cheaper.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 04:37 PM

Arming merchant ships is subject to government, assurance and underwriter, seamen's union and shipping company decisions. Professional security personnel would be required for thousands of ships.
A ship's crew is required only to operate and maintain the vessel; they are not hired to use firearms.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: gnu
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 05:10 PM

Fine. Let the pirates have fun. Glad youse ain't aboard.

If it was my ship, it would have security forces and the insurance companies and crew would be happy.

BTW, there is no government in international waters... just common sense.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 05:59 PM

Enjoy your time in prison.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 08:36 PM

It is my understanding that some of the larger cargo vessels now do hire armed security teams. However, I wonder what the reaction will be when the first armed security team takes over a ship and steers her for the coast of Somalia.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 10 - 09:44 PM

Somalia hasn't had an effective government for 20 years.
More profitable without?

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 06:28 AM

No amount of money will heal the pain for Mr. Chandler who learned that his elderly father had died while they were held captive.

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:49 AM

The officer responsible for denying the British Marines who witnessed the hijacking / kidnapping at close quarters permission to intervene ( which is what they'd been trained for in the first place !), should hang his head in SHAME !! So should the Royal Navy Captain who said,in yesterday's "Times" newspaper, that the answer to the "piracy problem " does not lie at sea ! What a C... !!
             I gather that our gutless,spineless,rules-of-engagement obsessed ,dithering British government are scared witless of actually CAPTURING any pirates alive ( and TERRIFIED of Worldwide approbation if they actually KILLED one, God forbid !), because those pirates would then have to be taken back to Britain where they would,naturally ,be entitled to claim asylum !! Personally,I think an "asylum" is what David Cameron and Nick Clegg are running,to be honest ; our Navy must be the laughing stock of the world,and certainly in Somalia.All those billions of pounds worth of unbelievably sophisticated,satellite-assisted,surveillance devices,and they can't keep track of a few suspicious small-craft ?? BOLLOCKS !!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 01:03 PM

Here's a well-reasoned assessment of the issues involved with paying ransom to the Somali pirates for kidnapped victims: Click here!

There is no easy answer but there certainly are a lot of superficial suggestions.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 02:53 PM

Published back in 2008, little has changed in the last two years. This excerpt is worth quoting.

"......Somali pirates are part of large, well-financed and well-organized criminal organizations based in Somalia.........and in states such as Kenya, Tanzania and the United Arab Emirates. It has even been suggested that Canada, home to the largest Somali diaspora outside Africa, hosts logistical and organizational cells for Somali pirates.
"Experts ...say there are five main pirate gangs that operate along Somalia's 3025 kiloimetre-long coastline, each of which is tied to a powerful local warlord who, in turn, has connections to the largely ineffective Transitional Federal Government of President Abdullahi Yusef.
"Although borne out of opportunity by having no central authority to prevent it, it has been argued that Somali piracy........[provides] an essential service by policing the country's territorial waters and preventing illegal fishing and toxic-waste dumping.
".......scoffed at by Western shipping firms......illegal fishing in Somali waters is...lucrative...with [UN estimates country loses USD $100 million per year due to illegal fishing by Spain, South Korea, Egypt (also Russia and Japan, with hijacked fishing ships)]
Piracy now "....lrgest industry in Somalia."
The use of "mother ships" allow "the pirates to strike at vessels traveling farther out at sea" (Now the entire Arabian Sea and part of the Indian Ocean).

Solution of the problem involves concerted UN action to improve tha situation in Somalia as well as to police the sea.
The solution is complex, not to be solved by mindless suggestions.

Harowo.com- news and analysis for peoples of the Horn of Africa, maintained by Ahmed Sh. Farah, Washington, D. C.


"Canadian former refugees are fighting among all factions in Somalia. Fron The National Post:
"Many Canadian Somalis, ......maintain close ties to Somalia, said Ahmed Hussen, president of the Canadian Somali Congress.
"Canadians are active in all three major warring factions in Somalia: the Transitional Federal Government, Al-Shabab and the Sufigroup Ahlu Sunna Wal Jama.
Wikipedia estimates 200,000 Somalis in Canada. "Somali pirates allegedly get help from the Somali diaspora. Somali expatriates, including reputedly some among the 200,000 Somalis living in Canada, offer funds, equipment and information."

Subject: RE: BS: Chandlers - time to pay a ransom?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Nov 10 - 02:56 PM

National Post excerpt- Quotation marks should close after ...Ahlu Sunna Wal Jama."