BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?

Subject: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 02:38 PM

When Adam delved, and Eve span, who was then the gentleman?

All the bets are on a conservative landslide at the next UK general erection. The folly of New Labour adopting capitalist neoliberalism will, thanks to the even greater folly of the general public, be visited upon their only chance of a short recession - the only significant party wedded to economic stimulus.

One thing about Alistair Darling's budget that cannot intelligently be gainsaid is "You cannot cut your way out of a recession". But the lunatic right will get their landslide, and like lunatics, will cut - and so cut off our heads.

What will they do then?

Why, they will try to force lump-labour to work for nothing, to make money for the monied.

So the new Tolpuddle, and the new St George's Fields, will be upon us.

The folk tradition, of curse, is rooted in the dispossession of the working class, be they agrarian or be they in the smoke and the fire of the industrial revolution.

If the working class become so impoverished and oppressed that they are unable like cattle to consume the factory fodder that the entertainment industry feeds them, all of which seems very likely, will we see (and not before time) the resurrection of "do it yourself" music and the recognition of the continuity with the "do it yourself" music of our foreparents?

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:03 PM

Richard Bridge asked:-

will we see (and not before time) the resurrection of "do it yourself" music and the recognition of the continuity with the "do it yourself" music of our foreparents?

It is unlikely that the past will ever come back. We will still be living in a technology-and-information-rich society - recession or no recession - and the vast number of alternatives to "do it yourself" music is likely to increase exponentially.

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:32 PM

And, of course, the 'Right is might' brigade will do what the evil Thatcher did and freeze pensions, for the wrinklies don't work and are therefore not subject to the new 'surfdom' to come. So impoverish them, and force them to sell their meagre posessions just to eat. Politicians - - - a curse on each and every one!!! Oh for a tax free hand out for a second home.

John Barden

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: romany man
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:39 PM

could sell ya a good vardo an oss cuz, i got a sicond ome, its anywhere i park it , till the baulos turn up an kick me ofn the bit o grass, hope to see ya at rochester dunno wot day tho,

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:44 PM

'ere we go again

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:46 PM

When you have to choose between the internet connection, and a meal, Vic, what then?

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:47 PM

PS, RM, I got a trailer and a Volvo, does that count?

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:47 PM

Even if do it yourself music increases it is likely to be polluted by the technology and information at the fingertips of the composer.

Song lyrics and music will NOT be coming from individuals impoverished of wider experience and so they will lack authenticity and soul of the pure experience we find in tradtional songs. Only a very few singer songwriters will make the mark in future as they do now.

I do not see an increase in qualintity of high quality songs.

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:48 PM

Got a small vardo cuz - might have to do with that and make some 'Marks in the Grass' along with a nice bit of tax free squirrel ;-)

John Barden

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:49 PM

bugger this new keyboard - nothing is in the right place.

that is quantity of high quality.

Subject: RE: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:49 PM

The Torys laid their cards on the table when Cameron said he would reverse the decision in the budget to take the caviar from the impoverished mouths of those earning more than £150,000 a year, so that the greedy older people on a pittance of a state pension squander a fortune both heating their homes and eating!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:53 PM

And what is the point of quality state education, the capitalists don't need educated workers to do their dirty work = God forbid if the workers should expect decent pay. Which party opposed the minimum wage?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 03:59 PM

They know that the electorate are so myopic, colour blind and senseless they they can't see, notice nor taste sh*t when it's being fed to them by the bucket load. I will vote with my head, not my pocket.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:01 PM

This was not a BS subject, it was a music subject, the primary point being the effect of oppression upon music.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:03 PM

Agreed Richard - thread drift on my part.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:12 PM

No
The new age of younger performers taking over from the older ones is upon us.
Natural progression.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:15 PM

why the hell is this in the bullshit section?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rasener
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:20 PM

Because Richard chose to make it BS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:30 PM

Richard Bridge asked:-

When you have to choose between the internet connection, and a meal, Vic, what then?

Well, you would go for the meal, obviously, but I wonder if this is a fair and realistic question. I'd imagine that there are a lot of people like me on Mudcat who are retired and living on a not very big pension who, nevertheless, clearly have an internet connection. Two of my best friends are unemployed and on-line and likely to retain their computers.

Anyway, it's not just internet connection that I was talking about

In the decades when I was working in schools, I was always asking the pupils what music they were listening to, and if I liked what they were talking about, I would ask them to borrow their LPs/CDs. In this way, amongst a lot of rubbish, I first got to listen to Bob Marley, Madness, UB40, The Police, Ian Dury, Tracy Chapman and a lot of other music that I thoroughly approved of and could speak to the kids about. In the last years before I retired, my question about what music they were listening to would be likely to draw a blank look and the explanation that they were spending their pocket money on software for their Game Boys or whatever the current hand-held hardware was.

If these youngsters were not listening to music they were unlikely to have the musicians that they admire to attract them to "do it yourself" music.

.....And by responding to the socio-technological aspect of your initial posting rather than its political points, I was hoping for sanity, because going down the political route on Mudcat never seems to lead to a sensible discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:53 PM

Actually, no, I didn't make it BS - I posted it, as it was, as a music topic, and evidently a clone decided I had no right to do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 04:56 PM

More political than musical me thinks, so therefore the BS section is the appropriate section

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Apr 09 - 10:35 PM

The really vital thing here is that Penelope Rutledge not have to let go any of the domestic staff...Rutledge House keeps 15 common people gainfully employed on a full time basis, and don't forget it!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 12:07 AM

Oh sorry Richard, thought you had done it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 03:34 AM

Richard, it's a very good question. I suspect that the short answer is 'yes' but it may not be folk music as we know it. Punk, for instance, was orginally 'do-it-yourself' music and, I suppose, some mught consider it to be folk music - certainly music in the folk tradition. If the scenarion you paint does come to pass (and I fear that it might), I suspect that there will be a lot more direct action on the streets, maybe from the likes of me who, after working for over 40 years, feel dispossessed. With that action may come a new type of protest music. It's all quite exciting in a rather depressing way.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Acorn4
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 03:43 AM

In the thirties Britain never managed to produce a Woody Guthrie, but I suppose we might this time around. Let's hope we don't need one.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 03:57 AM

It's always easier to look back and explain changes in music than to predict the way music may change as society changes.

I have noticed that many pubs that sell food now offer "Credit Crunch Meals" - sausage and mash etc. for £3 and so on. May be this is an indication of where we might be going.

Folk has always been relatively cheap and even the best musicians have struggled to make much of a living. Perhaps it will get cheaper with clubs doing what most Singarounds and Sessions do and charge nothing. Their is a wealth of talent that does floor spots and odd guest nights - no shortage of people to sing and play - just an unemployed audience. Perhaps we will see a return to home brewed beer?

New Labour failed because capitalism has stumbled - quite badly this time but it will get up again. New Labour also failed because it has no socialist alternative but as far as I can tell no body else has either.

The problems with capitalism will soon be overshadowed by Climate Change. Perhaps a massive tax on carbon fuels will stop people using them. The money raised could go into research in Green technology?

Cheers

L in C

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 06:23 AM

With that action may come a new type of protest music. It's all quite exciting in a rather depressing way.

I know what you mean. Depressing to me for several reasons...

* I don't have the energy or talent (if I was so inclined) to get involved even in small inconsequential ways. Besides who is going to listen to a protest song by a 51 year old woman? Sour grapes anyone?
* I wish society/politics/whatever had not come to this sorry pass for the sake of the young who will suffer most and longest from it.
* I worry that the bulk of next generation song writers will not be in it for the sake of social change but only for the notoriety. They have trained up on You Tube and Big Brother and have come to expect instant fame. That mindset does not translate well to a protest movement.
* How much pain/art can one draw out of a life bombarded / desensitised by the media, rubbish tele/music and violent video games?

I think what I fear most is a fin de siècle malaise in the young. Yes that is very depressing.

AND This thread still needs to be moved back up to the music area!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 06:29 AM

Has anyone checked? Perhaps there is a movement. Any chance that Goth will pick up the gauntlet? Or a splinter of Goth? Or is it already too old? God I feel old.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 07:00 AM

Social change does tend to change the music, and the young tend to be the ones that do it with most zeal. I'm young in my head, it's just the body that knows otherwise. I've written the odd 'protest song' during the mid to late 90's (the last century not my age) which seem just as relevant now, but not about the way nor reasons of the latest mess. Perhaps I should lock myself away and try to. Just maybe.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 08:13 AM

Apparently Engels is all the go

L in C

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Hamish
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 08:23 AM

Two completely unrelated observations:

a) I thought this was going to be along the lines of the new Torydom would inspire such angst that a plethora of songs would be "inspired". After all, Maggie did a great service to spleen venting folk.

b) A lot of folk isn't cheap. Folk clubs often charge a couple of quid for a singaround; or five, ten or more pounds for a guest act. Many pubs have equally "good" music available for free.

Maybe the recession will encourage free open sessions.

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 08:48 AM

I think most Fol is value for money - check out the price of tickets for Rock events

Cheers
L in C

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 08:57 AM

However a usable acoustic guitar is cheaper than most electrics + amp +then you need a drumkit +then you need a PA for the singer +etc, whereas I know one semi pro musician who play a Chantry that cost him £40 from a charity shop and I spotted an amateur last weekend also playing a Chantry presumably since he was out in the open air, when he has a very expensive 12-string at home and a pretty usable mid-range 6 string.

The US depression produced a wealth of hobo musicians and of course Woody Guthrie and in due course Pete Seeger.

There is a school of thought that the wealth of Irish music isrooted in the continued exploitation of Ireland by the English, and look at how much Scottish song is anti-English probably for a similar reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 09:56 AM

Hopefully, we may get songs along the lines of : "Oh where, Oh Where Has My Little Porsche gone?", "From Bolly to Beer", "Lament for the Million Pound Bonus", "They Took Away My Second Home", "Buddy Can You Spare a Couple of Grand" and " I Dreamed I Saw Fred Goodwin Last Night".

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 11:08 AM

snarrkk! laffed so hard i started choking.

Northern Rock Candy Molehill
Hedge Fund-E-Bay
The Banks are Cloudy
Crying Stockmen (Dying Stockman)
A Wanker's Work is Never Done
Cleave Away Santander-oh

and a revival of

My Lodging it is on the Cold Ground - we all gonna be first home-less
The Two Magicians - about Madoff and Stanford


- god I am no good at this.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 12:08 PM

To which, I might add:

'Red Braces in the Sunset'
'Hole in My Hand-Made Shoes'
'This Land Was My Land (but now it's been repossessed)'

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 12:09 PM

Maybe the recession will encourage free open sessions.

Oh, oh, are the sixties about to be recycled yet again? One can hope not.

Everything costs, it did back then too(in the sixties), but it was considered bad form (read "uncool") to point this out.

You want something, then be prepared to pay for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 12:31 PM

It costs nothing, except the price of beer, for like-minded people to gather together sing songs, play tunes and enjoy each others company

L in C
Tunes in the Beech tomorrow?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 12:37 PM

The effect might be for the upper crust to lose their hearing.

As more self made folk music is being sung anywhere and everywhere, the more the affluent will turn up the volume on their i-pods.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 12:44 PM

VirginiaTam >>A Wanker's Work is Never Done<<

There is already a song similar to that, but rude, so anybody who gets offended easily, shouldn't open it.

Ivor Biggun' - Winkers Song

Robert "Doc" Cox (born 1 July 1946 in Sheffield, Yorkshire), also known as Ivor Biggun, is a British musician and former television journalist. He is best known for his appearances on the BBC TV programme That's Life! from 1982 to 1989.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vbZKyB8L68&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Musket
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 12:47 PM

Well, the recession may well increase the number of buskers...

Still take issue of course with the sweeping statement that folk music has its roots in working class struggle. I have looked at the score for many jigs & reels and cannot find a whinging envy in any of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 01:42 PM

that folk music has its roots in working class struggle.

Ok..so we can say that murder ballads...Poor Murdered Woman..ummm The Murder of Maria Marten, Matty Groves etc..etc.. fit into your "working class struggle" generalisation?

And I still say this thread is where it belongs.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 01:48 PM

So we can't mention the political and societal effects on music without it being considered bullshit. Well then we better move a lot of what is above the line down here into the Basement. But not the Susan Boyle and Britain's Got Talent threads because they are about real music.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 02:13 PM

So what you're saying is that the only "real" music is that which speaks of "political and societal effects" and the great "working class struggle" I don't see a mass conversion to "folk" music anytime soon. Let people enjoy what they want to enjoy instead of having someone elses "world" view forced on them, be it Pop Idol, Britain's Got Talent, The Radio Ballads, Folk Waves or even Susan Boyle. Choice is what it's all about.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 02:16 PM

I agree with you Rifleman

Now where is my bullet

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 02:19 PM

Snork - Thank you The Villan for the W*anker Song. Once there I had have a listen to the Halfway up Virginia as well.

Pure curiousity you understand.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 02:31 PM

Rifleman

Don't spin my bit of sarcasm, into to something it is not. I am not talking world view or forcing any kind of music on anyone.

Nothing so big as that.

What I am talking about it, is whether or not this thread belongs above or below the line. It belongs above as much or more as Britain's Got Talent.

It is about music.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 02:44 PM

In the first posting to this thread:
The folk tradition, of curse, is rooted in the dispossession of the working class, be they agrarian or be they in the smoke and the fire of the industrial revolution.

Love that!

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 02:59 PM

The folk tradition, of curse, is rooted in the dispossession of the working class, be they agrarian or be they in the smoke and the fire of the industrial revolution.


Oh I do love that *LOL*
The answer, regardless, is no it's not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 03:22 PM

"The folk tradition, of curse, is rooted in the dispossession of the working class, be they agrarian or be they in the smoke and the fire of the industrial revolution".

The folky lefties like to think this, but any dispossession of the working class ceases to be of any consequence, now that we have the ongoing dispossession of the middle class.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 03:37 PM

Of course - the middle and professional classes created all the songs and lent them out to the working class who just mucked them up. The Mc and Ps then took them back, sorted them out and lent them out again. This happened a lot which is why so many variants exist.

Know your place

L in C

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rasener
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 03:39 PM

LOL
Virginia Tam that is also very funny.

I like that bloke as his songs are so funny and so close to the knuckle or downright crude.

I reckon I would like to see him live.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 03:47 PM

Rifleman, instead of ignorantly taking the piss because Richard made a typing error, perhaps you'd care to enlighten us on your reasons for what you assert.

My argument for saying that you are wrong is this: folk songs were, originally, part of an oral tradition. Oral because the majority of the people who composed and sang them were the uneducated (working)classes. The songs were their entertainment, their substitute for newspapers and, as Christopher Hill, one of the few serious historians to use the material to gain an historical perspective of the seventeenth and eighteenth century as seen from the viewpoint of the unlettered, unrepresented, disenfranchised and exploited classes, asserts in his ground-breaking book, 'Liberty Against the Law', songs were one of the few methods that this class had of expressing their opinions on their situation and the events that were unfolding around them. So the folk song as protest song has a long and eloquent history.

Certainly folk music was later taken up, and often bowdlerised, by the middle classes. But it is not their music. Being able to read and write, they had many other forms of expression at their disposal. Nor did they have the grievances to air that the 'common folk' had.

The possible exception to what I have just said may be some of the ballads. For a decription of what a ballad is, read Arthur Quiller-Couch's introduction to The Oxford Book of Ballads.

So, let's hear your argument to the contrary.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 05:38 PM

Well put leveller

L in C

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 05:55 PM

The metaphor "roots", in relation to music and song is a useful one, but like all such metaphors it can be a trap when it gets treated as if it was a literal statement of how things are.

The trap is the way it tends to get interpreted as implying a doctrine that a musical tradition necessarily has one origin - so "is rooted in the dispossession of the working class etc" is taken as meaning that this is the only source of traditional music.

That pretty evidently isn't true - but that doesn't mean that this dispossession etc hasn't a very significant agent in shaping and transmitting the folk music which has come to us, because that is pretty evidently true. Not just songs of conflict and struggle either, but a whole range of songs - collected from old farm labourers trapped in workhouses in their old age, for example.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 09 - 07:33 PM

IMHO, McGrath, you erroneously conflate "folk" with "traditional", but I would rather not at this stage revisit "what is folk", since the wilful ignorance of many on ha ttopic is so offensive.   Let me however point out that while, say, O'Carolan's music might have been written for the ruling classes of his land and time, since they could afford to pay him, its status if any as folk music comes from its adoption by those who cold not afford to pay him.

Folk song, however, is antithetical to the artifice of "culture" and "sensibility" of the aspirational classes. It may tell of the doings of the aristocracy, but can you really suppose that they sang those songs? In short, rifleman, I suggest you are ignorant of what you speak.

Folk song then did (and in its modern American usage does) however provide a means of expression to those who are, as we see the modern media evolve, deprived of other mainstream means of expression as indeed they were bereft of effective means expression in previous times. Have you forgotten the struggles to enfranchise the electorate? Can you show a realistic avenue to audience for the dispossessed then?

Do you not see the analogue now?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:47 AM

I'm not convinced that the change in political climate would lead to a class struggle that would be strong enough to spawn a folk revival. I take a more dystopian view where the emerging proletariat/ underclass would further entrench themselves within the banality of the media, relying on McDonalds for sustainance.

Even at the turn of the century the class difference were often a matter of life and death (read Tressell). In this century the alternative is death by junk food and brain death by the entertainment industry.

I think the folk revivalists would be more like the latter day Winston Smiths, trying to open the eyes of the proletariat to their lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:51 AM

The deeply depressing view of "the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists", eh?    It's arguable.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 06:09 AM

"In this century the alternative is death by junk food and brain death by the entertainment industry."

I think you'll find that that phenomena is not a class issue - it extends across the social spectrum. I suspect that those who will feel the pinch the most in the coming months/years will be the "middle classes", especially those who work in service industries, and the young, particularly school leavers. It will be interesting to see what, if any, kind of protest music they might produce

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 06:47 AM

As an interesting barometer of social change, here's a list of the fastest-growing topics from the relaunched Ask Jeeves site, compared to those from 2006. Could we really be headed for a more egalitarian society? Any ideas for songs here? "Woke up this morning, went down to my Primark store, gotta find some cheaper clothes, 'cos I can't afford Armani no more."

2009
•        Primark
•        Camping
•        Debt management/advice
•        Leftover recipes
•        Discount voucher codes
•        Designer outlet villages
•        Property auctions
•        Budget flights
•        Robert Peston (credited with breaking stories during the financial crisis)
•        UK country cottages
2006
•        Armani suits
•        Flight upgrades
•        Buy-to-let mortgages
•        Private school fees
•        Vintage wine investment
•        Fake tan
•        Trust funds
•        Tailor made holidays
•        Michelin restaurant guides
•        Weddings abroad

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 07:04 AM

its interesting how much of the 2006 list is all about status as opposed to quality. I think they reflect the aspirations that got the economy where it is today....

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 08:25 AM

I woke up this morning my temperature high
Buy, buy, buy
"I'll never buy nothing again," I lied
Buy, buy, buy
My doctor told me to stay out of town
Buy, buy, buy
He said, "Affluenza will get you down"
Buy, buy, buy


2009 is buy nothing year

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 12:11 PM

I've noticed that it's the "white middle class" who seem to defend the "working class" while the actual working classes are...ummm working.
How come the dispossessed didn't notice they were dispossessed until it was pointed out to them, by, dare I say it, the lefties in the crowd?



"Arthur Quiller-Couch's introduction to The Oxford Book of Ballads"

so happens I own a copy of that edition, so I'm overly familiar with the introduction, and believe it or not, the songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Musket
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 01:21 PM

So... let me see if I have got this right.

Folk belongs to the working classes because the middle classes can read and write?

When I left the pit and got a job with a company car, I suddenly became able to read and write! Whoopy doo!!

The more Chateau Royelle 87 I drink, the longer the words that fall into my realm of understanding! Every time I nip down the pub for a pint and game of darts, I forget how to spell wheelbarrow.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Oral tradition rings true. However, linking it to some social status fodder sounds a bit like bolloxology to me. I have no idea what working or middle class means today, and even recent history transcends the lines. When folk was becoming mainstream, class barriers were breaking down here in The UK.

Any better thesis? Or shall we just not get too hung up over it and accept that abstracts and concepts in public belong to and are part of all who hear and join in...

My tuppence, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:16 PM

"How come the dispossessed didn't notice they were dispossessed until it was pointed out to them,"

Hmmm, let's see now. Could it have been when they were turned off the land they had occupied for centuries? Or maybe it was when they saw their chidren dying of starvation. Yes, that would probably bring it home to them.


"Folk belongs to the working classes because the middle classes can read and write?"

Is that right, Ian. Where did you get that idea from? Certainly not from what I wrote unless, as I suspect, you're pulling that old trick when you have no answer to someone's assertion of deliberately misrepresenting what has been said.

"suddenly became able to read and write!" But obviously not to comprehend.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:19 PM

"Hmmm, let's see now. Could it have been when they were turned off the land they had occupied for centuries? Or maybe it was when they saw their chidren dying of starvation. Yes, that would probably bring it home to them."

Not all were turned off the land, some left of their own accord, knowing they couldn't make a go of it

you do over dramatise a bit

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:20 PM

the leveller - no point in getting into discussion with anyone who describes lyrics associated with the working class struggle as whinging envy. His red braces are too tight and constricting the blood flow to his brain.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:26 PM

"Not all were turned off the land, some left of their own accord, knowing they couldn't make a go of it"

My forebearers being a prime example, they got offered better paying jobs, and yes...they took the offer..but that doesn't fit in with the old "working class struggle" does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 03:58 PM

Then your forebears were fortunate when thousands were not.

......some left of their own accord, knowing they couldn't make a go of it

Exactly why couldn't they make a go of it? Make a go of what? Working someone else's land and forests for meagre living until the landowners wanted it cleared for grazing sheep and cattle? Working in mills and factories and mines just so you could watch your family starve? Getting injured on the job and seeing your entire family put in the workhouse for your thoughtless idleness?

What was there to make a go of?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:38 PM

Blast! My coding went haywire.

---------------------------Fixed. Mudelf --------------------

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 04:55 PM

ty elf person... I had hoped this thread might be ressurected to the music section but now even I have been drawn into the political bullshit.

me thinks I will just leave it for a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:32 PM

No harm in having a thread about music in the BS section. There are plenty of things that tend not to get discussed up above the line, though there's nothing that can't be discussed thrugh the medium of song, and no discussion that can't be improved when that happens.

Oh the hard times of Old England, in Old England very hard times.

How topical a song can still be after two centuries...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Apr 09 - 05:59 PM

Hmm. That might have been the totally unbiassed Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 03:48 AM

"you do over dramatise a bit"

To be honest, Rifleman, it's pointless having a discussion with someone who is so totally ignorant of British social history. May I suggest you read the following, for starters:

Christopher Hibbert: The English – A Social History from 1066 to 1945
Christopher Hill: Liberty Against the Law
Tawney: Religion and the Rise of Capitalism
Mark O'Brien: When Adam Delved – a History of the Peasants' Revolt
William Cobbett: Rural Rides
Robert Bell: Ancient Poems, Ballads and Songs of the Peasantry of England

That should give you a basic insight on which to base an informed opinion .

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 04:46 AM

So, the leveller says of the middle classes; it is not their music. Then denies it when responding to my observations? In which case, you forgot to remove your waffle before denying it.. Ah well.

Whinging envy is an interesting term. I first used it in the mid '80s when (name dropping, sorry..) Vin Garbutt was staying at our house as we had booked him for a local gig. He had a line in his head and was trying to develop it. The line was "It's not fair, all the work's down there." Many will know, it eventually became his song, "Not for the first time."

I did tell him I felt uncomfortable with music that crossed the line from dreaming of equality and fairness, (noble thoughts in my book,) and whinging envy. Vin is an excellent example of using song for social comment. There are many songs by many songwriters around over the years that go from shouting for fairness to wanting to be part of the other side. Not quite so noble..

Sorry, (forget who it was now, no matter,) I don't wear red braces. I just get on with life, moan about bits of it, am grateful about other bits of it.

One thing I do moan about is people who in my experience who try to hijack an abstract such as music and link it to some political ideal. That is wrong. Folk is not about matching it to a philosophy, lifestyle or income level. It is about folk, meaning everybody. Its bad enough right wing groups singing John Barleycorn at their meetings without others putting labels on it.

If one person who has a lifestyle that fits the "middle classes" label happens to get a guitar out and play in a pub, then the new age of folk, (to get back on thread,) is upon us.

Methinks it was there from the beginning then...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 05:32 AM

"abstract such as music"

The songs that were kept alive through the 18C and 19C by rural working people and the songs made and sung by industrial workers, later collected by the musically educated people like Sharp, McColl and Lloyd, are not abstract. They come from the context of the lives of the people who kept them alive because they liked singing them.

"will we see (and not before time) the resurrection of "do it yourself" music and the recognition of the continuity with the "do it yourself" music of our foreparents?"

Richard's question is timely and palced in an historical context.

I think

L in C

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 06:52 AM

"So, the leveller says of the middle classes; it is not their music. Then denies it when responding to my observations? In which case, you forgot to remove your waffle before denying it.. Ah well. "

What? I think you've lost the plot, Ian. If you actually bothered to read what I had written you'd see that, once again, you have completely missed the mark. Oh dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 09:43 AM

the leveller wrote; "Certainly folk music was later taken up, and often bowdlerised, by the middle classes. But it is not their music. Being able to read and write, they had many other forms of expression at their disposal. Nor did they have the grievances to air that the 'common folk' had."

I fully accept you were being historical with that, but it is a bit sweeping to say that only the working classes had grievances. To say folk is not therefore their (middle classes) music is (to use a favourite phrase of a few years ago) breathtaking arrogance. The middle classes as you put it brought us Vaughan Williams, Britten et al, collectors of folk tunes, (and ruined many in my opinion, but that's another story.)

I often miss the mark, I admit it. But rereading your comment above, my comments appear at least to me to be vindicated.

So, move on.

is there a new age of folk upon us? Folk carries on and on. Always has, always will. I remember having a laugh when the comic / actor / author Alexis Sayle did a folk song as he saw it which started;

"Oh, I am a computer programmer
I come from Milton Keynes"

Can't remember any more, apart from the next rhyme being "haricot beans."

I once wrote a song about my experiences in a strike many years ago, and quite a few people sang it, despite it being less than generous to union leaders etc. If I wrote about how business class flights are not as special as they used to be, or how I feel it prudent to hang onto the Jag for another year, it would still be a folk song by any known definition. It would also be of no interest whatsoever to anybody to hear it. The Who sang "Who are You?" moaning about being in a recording studio all day. Might have sold more if they added a line about taking the whippet for a walk?

I hear where Les in Chorlton is coming from, but music is an abstract. The words less so. When the abstract of music is mixed with the power of words, a potent force can be released. Far too important to be hijacked by self styled champions of the oppressed masses, whatever.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 09:59 AM

It seems Ian you have not re-read the 1954 definition recently. Whatever you write and sing does not become a folk song until it is absorbed by a community, and modified by that transmission (I paraphrase).

Perhaps you would care to resurrect "White Middle Class Blues".

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 11:39 AM

What, and have it modified?

Most folk songs even now are protected by copyright, so modification is sometimes a legal convenience rather than evolution. No. McColl, Lloyd etc all had their "arrangements" copyrighted, so by the 1954 definition would no longer count as folk songs, yet the modification would? Jingles written for adverts are definitely absorbed by a community. Mishearing leads to modification too.. Still serves the subliminal marketing, and would fit into the 1954 definition.

I suppose you could also question from that what a community is. If a community is, say, everybody who likes shanty songs within the world, then the term community is rather self serving. Judging by my neighbours, absorption would count for Wagner one side and whatever the local radio station plays the other!

Communities do not absorb tunes, songs, tradition or otherwise in The UK. Media has made the world a much smaller place, and whilst the 1954 definition could just about have worked then, in small degree, in isolated communities, but not in my street.

Elsewhere on this forum, I have perhaps demonstrated my bemusement at strict definitions, and even suggested that if evolution is part of the game, then folk is, amongst other things, any song sung in a pub acoustically in The UK. It seems to me to be as accurate as any other thing I have heard.

I will always listen to others, and take on board their views, as I hope those who dismiss me would do also. I am not right any more than another view is wrong. But.. and it is a big but.. over the years, I have been annoyed by those who identify such a huge area as folk music as being something to do with their political and social outlook. For my sins, I have been identified as a class traitor, red braces wearer and even scab. (And that's just on this forum in the last couple of months!)

As there is and never can be an international legally binding charter saying what folk music is, (and if there were, it would evolve into something else the next day,) then any definition is as valid as the next. If people are comfortable with the 1954, then whatever floats your boat. If somebody agrees with me that at least in The UK, the output of folk clubs is a decent indicator, then I will be happy. BUT if anybody waffles on about it being an outpouring of a culture to the detriment of other sections of society, then I will argue otherwise.

Anyway Richard; you assume I am white? Mind you, it is assumed I am middle class for that matter. i still have two of everything I should have, just like when I was classed as working class. I just consider myself class, but self delusion is no crime.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 12:11 PM

Apparently anyone that disagrees with theleveller's position is ignorant or completely missing the point.It's this nasty patronising attitude which makes me not take anything theleveller says seriously, besides which, I've heard all before.

"To be honest, Rifleman, it's pointless having a discussion with someone who is so totally ignorant of British social history

Most assuredly I am not ignorant.

Virginia Tams, you ARE of course, working class yourself, and speak from experience?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 04:45 PM

I would say that the majority of my working life was spent in minimum wage jobs, including cleaning the middle class folks first and second homes. I walked their dogs and scooped their kitty litter when they were on vacation. My body said no more so I went to university when I was in my 30's. So now I work mid wage admin job to pay off over $25,000 in school loan debt.

So yeah I still feel like lower socio-economic class as we with education would say in the US. Without education I was just po' white trash!

I was never in this argument for the sake of defining terms and proper owners of folk music (a term I am beginning to loathe for it's devisiveness). I just take exception at certain dismissals of the geniune suffering of huge swathes of people and the music that was turned out of that suffering.

I'm done.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 05:10 PM

"it is a bit sweeping to say that only the working classes had grievances"

Indeed it is and that is not what I said - once again you are twisting what I say to try to fit in with your own opinions. What I said was: "Nor did they have the grievances to air that the 'common folk' had."

The grievances of the middle class were very different - often associated with property, taxation and religion.
Here is a passage from Hill's Liberty Against the Law:

"The Parliamentry electorate comprised a small minority of the population, and it seems that the majority were inarticulate....and though they did not write manifestos some of them managed during the revolutionary 1640s and 1650s to express points of view different from their betters. When I was young we used to be told that there was a great struggle for liberty in England. What has always worried me was that the question 'libery for whom' was never asked. 'Liberty and property' were always associated in the minds of Parliamentarian proagandists during the civil war and the propertied did, indeed, get liberty. But one man's liberty is another's slavery. A quite different English tradition, whose popularity is supported by its presence in so many ballads, held that the law is the enemy of freedom. It is this alternative tradition - or these altyernative traditions, for there is no single tradition - that I intend to look at."

Rifleman said: "Most assuredly I am not ignorant."

You have said nothing so far that demonstrates that.

Disagree with me, by all means, that's the whole point of a discussion, but justify your opinions with something other than your own prejudices and arrogance. As for patronising - perhaps you should read you own posts again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 29 Apr 09 - 05:17 PM

"Apparently anyone that disagrees with theleveller's position is ignorant, completely missing the point, prejudiced and arrogant."

seems the lefties are prejudiced against anyone who doesn't subscribe to their "working class struggle" I don't therefore I must be.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 03:16 AM

Not at all, Rifleman, it's simply that, as usual with righties of your calibre who cannot provide any substantiation for their assertions, you are substituting your impotent reactionary outbusts with rational and informed debate. I feel that I'm getting into a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

Knowledge is power. If you wish to continue in your arguments, get some.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 04:08 AM

"you are substituting your impotent reactionary outbusts with rational and informed debate"

that should, of course, have read "FOR rational and informed debate". Must get me eyes fixed!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 12:07 PM

Me reactionary? Me right wing? Hardly. I've stood up to be counted, when it mattered, more than once in my life, but my experiences have taught me exactly how to wind people like you up.

You talk a great struggle but I suspect you really don't have the courage of your convictions. You remind me of a few musicians I've been associated with, they talk great politics on stage (giving the punters what they want to hear) but off stage...well it's a completely different breed of animal.

I leave you with This Dylan got it right 44 years ago

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Musket
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 03:54 PM

Like a Rolling Stone... 44 years ago? Wow...

I like impotent reactionary outbursts leveller, although I am a bit confused as they normally come from Daily Mail readers, not level headed contributors such as Rifleman?

A bit too easy to wind up leveller in my opinion, not hard enough therefore not enough of a challenge. Something about unarmed men I think? Dunno, lost the plot trying to read it..

I have never subscribed to the worn out working class struggle through music debate. Historically, we can all be grateful to those who spearheaded reform, but their relevance to today is not easy to see. When a war is won, stop fighting. Hence I had my radical youth outlook fixed on more international debate, such as Chile, South Africa etc. By my time, working class struggle didn't sit easily as working class (assuming comfort with the badge,) meant I could pay my way, have holidays abroad, raise a family and buy decent guitars, amps etc. By the time Billy Bragg was rattling on about "I was a Miner" I had had my fill of armchair socialists.

The new age of folk is hopefully an enjoyment of music and culture with hijackers banished to debating societies. the last time I walked out of a folk club was hearing Roy Bailey singing Blackleg Miner.

Sorry if my profile doesn't fit somebody's ideal, but it is my enjoyment every bit as much as yours. Live with it and prepare to be challenged if I feel your brand of exclusivity needs challenge. I have stood on stage getting easy cheers, and it is addictive, even in danger of believing it myself! but ultimately, this is about enjoyment, and that my friend is an abstract, full stop.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 04:55 PM

Leveller, you display a great understanding, and considerable learning.

'nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: theleveller
Date: 30 Apr 09 - 06:42 PM

"I suspect you really don't have the courage of your convictions"

"Hence I had my radical youth outlook fixed on more international debate, such as Chile, South Africa etc."

I was in South Africa 1976 to 77. I was there when Biko was thrown out of a window of the police headquarters in John Foster Square. I was there when Soweto and Alexandria burned. I was summoned to the Department of the Interior and told, in no uncertain terms, that I should keep my nose out of SA politics (I didn't). I had to leave at a few hours notice by doing a reverse detour via Cape Town, leaving everything I owned behind, to avoid the SA authorities. Do not lay that kind of shit on me because I lost friends in Angola and some who were 'disappeared' by the police in SA. (Sorry, getting a bit emotional here.)

Ian, we both love the music but maybe we come from a different standpoint - my background comes from a grandfather who, after leaving school at 12 to work as a ploughboy, then worked on the railways all his life, became a life-long socialist, but was the ultimate autodidact with an incredible knowledge of history, literature and politics, and served the community as chairman of the council, a JP , church warden, and many other community roles despite the fact that he never rose beyond being a booking office clerk.

My own son seems to have a similar leaning, having gained a place at Loughborough Uni to study history and politics - although, I have to say, his politic leanings are much more to the right than mine! Bloody kids - they will have their own opinions!

BTW, Ian, I like challenge - it's the lifeblood of folk music and, at 60 years of age, it's probably what keeps me alive. As Dougie Maclean said: "You can fall but you must not lie down".

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Musket
Date: 01 May 09 - 03:25 AM

I accept your liking of challenge leveller, and please don't take this too personal, but I do have issues with exclusivity, and yeah, for that matter, I too have worked in SA, not to mention other areas of the world where political and social levels are not particularly in line with my own expectation.

I just feel the inclusion of other countries to my standpoint is valid as many peoples of the earth would happily aspire to what many here moan about. Free speech and all that, but don't expect me to have empathy with some so called plights. I was on strike in '84 and did not recognise some of the hand wringing patronising bullshit the armchair socialists were coming out with, presumably in our cause. In fact, I can't complain as I left the industry there and then, wife and baby to feed etc etc, and to be fair, never looked back.

When class war is put to music, I may or may not like it. If I hear, say Dick Gaughan sing World Turned Upside Down, then I love the tune and the words are a reminder from history that Leon turned to prose very well. When I first heard McColl sing Daddy What Did You Do In The Strike, I just couldn't recognise myself or my community in that song. A pity because songs last much longer than newspaper headlines. Ironic that many of his other songs were moaning about use of propaganda!

The thread asks if the new age of folk is upon us? T'was ever thus. In fact, I used to do my bit to ensure we don't forget the injustice by singing The Biko Drum.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 02 May 09 - 08:35 AM

Going back to the original debate, and I am probably repeating myself - I personal don't think that there is a new age of folk upon us as there has been a massive change of focus from thinking around issues of survival, to thinking around issues base don a diet of mediocrity. I'm sure there will be political songs made highlighting inequality, but comparing the 1984 dystopia, 'giving the proletariate their gin' and rewriting this as 'give the disaffected x-factor and big macs'. I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:46 AM

The very term, new age, makes me cringe

The music has and will continue, the topics of new songs will change from one thing to another, thus it ever was, thus it will always be

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Donuel
Date: 03 May 09 - 11:13 AM

For mew this Dylan song is the seed of rap music

Dylan rap

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:15 PM

mew?
Jim Carroll will get at you for bad spelling *LOL*

I agree with you, Donuel, Bobby was a rapper ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 May 09 - 07:13 AM

May the recession keep the oiks from the places we travel to on holiday!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the new age of folk upon us?
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 04 May 09 - 12:16 PM

"May the recession keep the oiks from the places we travel to on holiday!!"

WE tend to stay away from Bognor and Brighton...