When NOT to sing

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 May 09 - 07:43 AM

Sorry Richard - I understood that you were an advocating 'the room' joinging in, therefore shutting them up would be a bad thing, no matter how it was acheived?
I'm confused, it seems
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 05 May 09 - 10:22 AM

From Virginia Tam's post"
"Singers age and die away, taking the traditional songs with them."

I have asked the following question on several threads and never received a satisfactory response:

When a source singer dies, taking his repertoire with him, does a revival singer or collector (an obvious repository or source of the old songs) then become a source singer?
And if not, why not?

It stands to (my) reason that the surviving source of the songs would be the 'source singer', n'est-ce pas?

Seamus

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 05 May 09 - 11:17 AM

Good question Seamus.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 05 May 09 - 12:15 PM

Ultimately nothing matters except the music, all the harping and carping melts away. I LOVE people joining in, we (the band and I) performed The Partys Over a couple of weeks ago, and we avidly encouraged the audience to join in on the chorus, in the end there were a number of people who were familiar with the song, and sang the whole song right along with us, it was wonderful.

I wonder if John Tams would have offered his services to a song (the Albion Band Recording)that "says nothing". I don't think so.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Musket
Date: 07 May 09 - 11:29 AM

Just had a thought, (possibly without Mr Carroll reminding us of whatever it is he reminds us of, I tend to forget..)

Every song ever sung in a folk club is a folk song. ergo...

Perhaps somebody could remind me, who did the parody of Bright Lights, the chorus I believe went, appropriately;

Meet me at the folk club, don't be late
I need to sing some Richard and it just won't wait!
Blow out the candles and turn on the lights,
I don't want to hear "The Bright Lights" tonight.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:07 PM

"(possibly without Mr Carroll reminding us of whatever it is he reminds us of, I tend to forget.",
Bit more nastiness to add to the list
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:18 PM

I think that the question posed by the thread title has been answered, some people don't mind when the audience joins in, some people do mind. The rest of you, back in your prams!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:33 PM

I've disagreed with Jim Carroll throughout this thread and I'm getting a little tired with the personal attacks on someone who is obviously committed to supporting traditional music

This is a valid thread, raising an important question, and deserves to be debated properly, In order to do that, people need to feel free to post their opinions and ideas, and others should feel free to disagree with these.

But personal insults and snide remarks do not add to the debate. Indeed, they deter many from getting involved.

If you can't add constructive thoughts, ideas, opinions or argument then don't bother coming on with the insults.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:38 PM

I `ad that Jim Carroll in my cab the other day, `e looked well discombobulated.
I said, " What`s up Jim? Ryan Air put their prices up or something?
`e said, "Nah, I was at a singaround and session last night in Dulwich at "The Dog" ( or "The Crown and Greyhound" as the nouveaux still `ave it) and without a "by your leave" they joined in singing with everything."
I said, "That`s a bit out of order `ennit? What did you do then".
`e said, "Well, when it was my turn I thought I`ll just play a tune.But would you Adam and Eve it? They all started `umming!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 07 May 09 - 12:45 PM

O.K., nice one Jim ;-)

Nothing like keeping things in perspective.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 May 09 - 01:04 PM

Surely the best thing is to have the screaming abdabs at whoever has the temerity to join in, embarrass them to within an inch of their life, resume whatever song of the people you were singing, then moan on Mudcat?

On Crackerjack there used to be a bouncing ball over the words or Peter Glaze pointing to the lines of the song. Why can't we go back to simpler times?

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 May 09 - 01:13 PM

Kampervan

I'm getting a little tired with the personal attacks on someone who is obviously committed to supporting traditional music

There's the dilemma. Jim is an important figure in the folk revival and has done invaluable work for which we all owe him an enormous debt. The trouble is that, now, his contribution is overwhelmingly negative. He talks about "nastiness" but pours abuse on any folk club organiser who dares to poke their head above the parapet.

If he genuinely wishes to promote the music he loves, he is going to need allies. It makes no sense to alienate the very people who could help him.

Must get ready to go and see Con"Fada" O'Drisceoil at the Royal Oak.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Big Mick
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:12 PM

Dear Piginapoke, Mick in moderator mode here. Your comment has been deleted because you used an anon identity. If you are going to be critical in the manner in which you were, you will have to have the stones to use your own ID. Otherwise that would be trolling or flaming.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 May 09 - 02:57 PM

"He talks about "nastiness" but pours abuse on any folk club organiser who dares to poke their head above the parapet"
Sorry Bryan, this, and much similar in the past is your own particular (extremely inaccurate) interpretation of my position based largely on fundamental disagreements between us. The fact that I do not see how advocating allowing club platforms to be used as rehearsals for non singers can be in any way beneficial to their future; this is the basis for that disagreement, and it is the reason why we have yet again been plunged into another head-to-head about something that bears no relation whatever to the subject of this thread.
I do not pour abuse on folk club organisers - I have an apparently irreconcilable disagreement with YOU on the question of standards of performance. I have suggested that we agree to disagree, I have also suggested that our argument should be taken off-line, yet once again you have insisted on dragging our differences onto another unrelated thread.
As you, and others have pointed out, I have not been a regular at a folk club for ten years, so to some degree I use threads like this as a guage of what is now happening on the scene (not the only one - I still manage occasionalvisits and I have friends who perform regularly). I use the information I receive here and on other threads to fill in what I can no longer find out first hand and I respond when I feel inclined to do so. Contrary to how you have interpreted my views on the clubs, I still hold them to be an extremely important part of the passing on of our music. They were my introduction to folk music and I hope that will continue to be the case for others.
This thread should not be about me and my attitude; it shoud be about whether joining in with singers is desirable - please allow it to be so.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,glueman
Date: 07 May 09 - 03:34 PM

Much of what passes for debate hereabouts falls into a few categories. There are considered judgements based on long experience, personal opinion with the usual smattering of prejudices all humans are prone to and simple caprice - right now in this mood I think x.

The danger is mixing a, expertise, and assuming every other observation we make falls under the same category. I fail to see any objective method for deciding whether people should join in or not that is arrived at beyond capriciousness.

Arguments usually begin from a sense of humour bypass, not a misunderstanding of the available facts.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,some random lurker
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:13 AM

I came across this video of a heavy metal concert in France on YouTube and it made me think of this thread. The song is one of the best known of the band (Rammstein) involved, and the lead singer encourages the the audience to just sing the chorus to him for large sections of the song. At one point he even sort of conducts.

My point is that it isn't just folk audiences who want to sing along if the know the song. People just like to sing along.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLp63WBV-Ic

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:47 AM

"It stands to (my) reason that the surviving source of the songs would be the 'source singer', n'est-ce pas?"

I'm no singer, but if I ever poke my head over the parapet at my local sinaround (the Beech, Chorlton, 1st & 3rd Wednesdays), my source is my record collection... Luckily it contains stuff like VOTP and various Veteran and Musical Traditions CDs. I would suggest that this is the problem of calling "traditional" singers "source" singers...

I usually find it fairly obvious which are chorus songs and which aren't. Comments like "please join in on the chorus provide handy clues, too"...

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:15 AM

Just back from a wonderful weekend of cakes, ale and song (both human and avian). Everything from Child ballads to nightingales.

There seems little point in responding in detail to Jim Carroll's tirade; everybody is all too well aware of what he has said. For the record, I would just like to make it clear that I have never advocated "allowing club platforms to be used as rehearsals for non singers" nor do I think that standards do not matter as has been said elsewhere.

Jim did indeed try to take our discussion off-line but he was far less inhibited in his abuse there and no better at listening to what I was actually saying so I said that I preferred to be assaulted in front of witnesses. In particular, he accused me of "encouraging people to sing in public if they are incapable of handling the basics of singing". Something which bears no resemblance to anything I have ever said.

Jim, you continue to make slanderous attacks on me and use every thread to do your best to sully the reputation of the current UK folk scene and those who dedicate themselves to making it work.

Agreeing to disagree is not an option.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:20 AM

As I said, put my tirade of abuse up for all to judge if you wish to continue this harangue from thread to thread.
I've become very bored with it all.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 12 May 09 - 08:31 AM

Just after a stotty stuffed with chips.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:51 PM

Jim Carroll

I've become very bored with it all.

Then stop doing it. If you insist on attacking me for things I haven't said and opinions I don't hold and accusing me of being crass, of dumbing down and of promoting crap standards, I think I'm entitled to defend myself.

More generally, posts like this need to be countered as they are damaging the reputation of UK folk clubs on an international forum.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Aeola
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:46 PM

I remember Keith Donnelly saying to me at a festival that he only performed 1 song whilst on stage because the audience all joined in with the others and so he left them to it!
Most people know when to join in or not.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 12 May 09 - 02:55 PM

Lomax has made the case that the African-American influences in music stress participation as opposed to the Anglo penchant for solo singing. Growing up in jazz,
I like the idea of participation in music. I also see that sometimes it gets in the way of
an individual expressing themselves for an audience.

The question is not when "not" to sing but when to sing. I think that if you went to a Shakespeare play, even if you knew it from the beginning to the end you would not mumble along unless you were Winston Churchill. (See Burton's Hamlet and the backstage appearance of Churchill). On the other hand, how can you not want to participate in a rousing spiritual that everyone knows?

"To everything there is a season....a time to sing and a time to not sing" to paraphrase Pete and Ecclesiastes.

Frank

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 12 May 09 - 03:46 PM

they are damaging the reputation of UK folk clubs on an international forum.

You've got that right, just reading that linked post caused my blood pressure to rise. Alot of people put alot into making a folk club, or a session or a singaround work. I swear some belittle others simply to make themselves look good.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Janice now in Western NY State
Date: 13 May 09 - 01:41 PM

There are no absolutes, but there are preferences. If you don't want people to sing along, then say so. If you want them to join you only on the choruses or refrians, then tell them that. And if it's okay to join in singing throught the song, then that's what you should say. Most audiences will respect your wishes.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Diva
Date: 16 May 09 - 01:39 PM

It is wonderful to have a group of singers belting a chorus along with you especially with harmonies.....what is not wonderful is, as has been mentioned earlier,is when it gets taken over.

I found myself in that situation recently and found it a bit distracting. All was going well but one person sitting near me was about three words ahead in the refrain and doing their own thing and it was putting me off. My initial reaction was to put up a hand and stop them......but......I was there as a guest singer and in some fine company and thought it better not to resort to diva-ish behaviour. However, I found a way of dealing with it without making too much of a fuss. I just played about with the refrain, stretching notes putting in ornamentation etc til the culprit was keeping up with me and not the other way around.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Frozen Gin (inactive)
Date: 16 May 09 - 01:47 PM

When NOT to sing

When you have a mouthful of dry cornflakes, makes a hell of a mess on the stage and in the first 3 or 4 rows of the audience. The gig promotor(s) are generally not impressed.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 09 - 10:47 AM

Yes. It means they like the song and want to be involved. Why be precious about it?





couldnt have put it better myself .

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 May 09 - 03:42 PM

Just listen to any Gregson/Collister live recording and you will hear a chorus in the audience singing all the time - mainly girls!!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Zimmerman
Date: 17 May 09 - 11:12 PM

Having posed the original question in this thread it has been an eye-opener to sit ringside while blows have been exchanged and tears have been shed as egos have been confronted.

My inchoate response would be to ask another question: is it the singer or the song?

Social anthropologists have observed that in communities where music is integral to social occasions, the paradox arises that, although the song may be treasured, it is the singer who holds sway, even where there is a tradition of group singing.

As an example I would cite my own experience in Irish clubs and bars here in England. There may have been a professional band or singer booked but during their break, or especially at the end of the evening, it is common for an audience member to launch into a song and be heard in respectful silence. Drink-fuelled maudlin sentimentalty may play its part but the message is clear - respect the singer.

And I say Amen to that.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: mg
Date: 18 May 09 - 12:33 AM

Yon social anthropologists need to broaden their scope of research. l;mg

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 09 - 02:44 AM

Zimmerman
"respect the singer."
You have that right.
Have just been listening to an interview of the great Sean Nós singer Joe Heaney where he is asked precisely the same question you asked - his reply "One singer, one song".
Our folk songs, by and large, are constructed as solo pieces which are made for individual interpretation. Joining in wherever and whenever an audience feels like is an infringement on the right of the singer to give that individual interpretation - how could it possibly be anything else?
Silence on the part of the audience is an indication of respect for the singer and an interest in the song being sung.
Some songs are obviously made for joining in - they come with choruses and refrains; but even these should be treated with sensitivity - don't turn gentle refrains into belted out choruses - let the singer make the running - at the moment of singing it's his or her song.
If audience members want their five minutes of fame, let them go and get their own songs - not being precious - it's good manners apart from anything else.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Marje
Date: 18 May 09 - 04:33 AM

The last couple of examples relate particularly to Irish tradition:
"Irish clubs and bars here in England" and "the great Sean Nós singer Joe Heaney".

Please bear in mind that "our folk songs" (Jim) are not a single entity, and the social settings where they're sung are very varied. This forum includes members in England, Scotland and the US, as well as elsewhere. It's perfectly obvious from the discussions above that the traditions and customs around singing are not the same in all these regions. There are places (and songs) where you show respect by listening attentively, and there are also those where you show your appreciation and engagement with the song and the singer by joining in.

The song/singer focus is an interesting point: in England (at least) many well-respected "song-carriers" will tell you that for them it's the song that matters, every time. And paradoxically, it's often this respect for the song that makes them compelling and convincing singers. But I accept that this isn't how singing is perceived by everyone, everywhere.

By all means describe what you see in a particular area or setting; by all means say that's what you prefer; but please don't generalise and say this must apply everywhere and in all circumstances.

Marje

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 May 09 - 05:06 AM

Marge
I come with nearly forty years of being involved in Engish clubs. Up to ten-fifteen years ago it would have been unheard of for an audience to join in with a singer on a non-chorus song without being invited to do so BY THE SINGER. Nowadays it now seems to be the case of "It's my party and I'll sing if I want to".
It has to be the singer who decides, and he/she should NEVER be put in the humiliating situation of having to request that an audience don't join in.
There is no precedents (apart from family gatherings like the Coppers) of joining in with what are obviously non-chorus/refrain songs, or if there are, I would be interested to hear of them. In thirty years of collecting from source singers (English, Irish and Scots) we never encountered the phenomenon. Some of them, whenn we asked, expressed an abhorrence of the practice (into the microphone).
I've already given a couple of horror stories of Walter Pardon's experiences of such bad manners at the hands of club audiences - I could give plenty more.
Must go - session in Mayo where, if a bodhran player joins in without invitation, he or she could find themself swimming to America with their instrument inserted in a very inconvenient part of their anatomy.
jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Diva
Date: 18 May 09 - 01:26 PM

Basically what Jim Carroll said...manners...it is a question of manners

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 09 - 04:42 PM

I think it boils down to horses for courses. If the singer and/or the song is an obvious solo performance then it would be very rude of the audience to join in without permission. On the other hand if I was to sing a shanty and no-one joined in I would be a bit put out! What we need is a modicum of common sense. Something that does not seem too common unfortunately:-(

Something did just spring to mind as I mentioned shanties - At Lancaster some years back a fellow mudcatter upset quite a few people by joining in with not only the choruses and refrains but the verses as well! The general concensus (sp?) was that the audience had paid to listen to Johnny Collins (as it was) NOT an unknown and very loud participant! Common sense again. Join in when appropriate and listen when it isn't!

What is difficult about that?

DeG

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 18 May 09 - 10:36 PM

I hope I'm not in the "sings when he shouldn't" category, and in particular, that I'm not the singer Big Mick mentioned, a friend who sang over you at a Getaway. If so, I'm sorry. I did notice myself a few weekends ago, when my enthusiasm for "Old Bill Bailey Played the Ukulele," got to me and I sang along with another friend, when it wasn't called for at all. There are times, even at my age, when enthusiasm overcomes taste and sense.

Me culpa.

I'm both a singer and musician, and one of my curious desires is to be an accompanist, when one can help the song, rather than a member of the chorus, so my chance to join in depends on a specific kind of session, and when I encounter that kind (essentially, country/bluegrass song-swaps, or blues sessions, or, as it were, "accompanied singarounds"), I have to be careful to not overdo it. If I'm the third or fourth guitarist in such a session, I'll pick up the mandolin or banjo or harmonica, or sit it out.

I could see doing it the same way if I were an accomplished harmony singer, I might make the same sing/don't-sing decision if I was not likely to help the sound by adding my voice -- if they didn't need another tenor or baritone, or if the harmony I could add was 'skew' to the kind of song being sung. To me, to sing or not to sing depends on what I can add with my voice or instrument, and how well that would fit the song & singer. In DC, we tend to sing a lot, when an opportunity presents itself. If it's a house concert or singaround, even more than a formal concert, but even then we're compelled by something inside, so have to almost artificially pull back if it seems like the wrong situation.

My contribution here seems to reinforce the "use your sensibilities" faction here. Unfortunately, that faction seems a little small, or at least not as outspoken as "some people here." Speak up for good sense, folks!


Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 19 May 09 - 12:23 PM

If there is an understanding that the singer doesn't want you to sing along, then this should be respected of course.

Manners and sensitivity do play a role here.

But the best communication for most people is a sense of participation which if encouraged by the performer enhances that performance.

I have been bored to tears by some long-winded, pretentious, self-important singers
who insist on a "concert platform" for their "precious" offerings.

Folk song academia is a disease which is not limited to information but a great deal
of attitude.