BS: WW3

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 09 - 05:30 PM

I bet he wouldn't feel differently if he was one of the indigenous Icelandic people who were displaced and ethnically cleansed by the minority Nordic race who had taken refuge in his country.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Lox
Date: 10 May 09 - 05:53 PM

"if there IS a nuclear attack on them,and they look likely to be the losers,then when they go down, you can be sure that they will take the rest of us down with them ! So it might be a good idea to be NICE to Israel, after all, don't you think ??"

We should be nice to them or they'll take us all down?

Which is it - are they a poor defenceless huddle of dispossessed refugees or are they the human manifestation of gods retribution on the rest of us?

You wrote one paragraph and gave two contradictory views of the same hypothetical people.

I therefore find it hard to match your analogy against anything real.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Lox
Date: 10 May 09 - 05:56 PM

You know Skarpi, i think you might fel a bit differently if you were eating Nachos off the thigh of a lecherous kangaroo whilst having your feet tickled by a thousand little green men.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: skarpi
Date: 10 May 09 - 05:56 PM

This message apove is not worth to answear .


but I have to , just a little .
and just so you know , for over a 1000 years Iceland has been
under three nations , of wars and sickness , been killed and
been used as slaves, by algerian nation , been sold to slavery .

if you think its fine to live up here in the North Atlantic
ocean and think that we have always been free from this shit .
then think again .

Now Joe , I think this thread has gone over the line ,

So it might be a good idea to be NICE to Israel, after all, don't you think ??

you dont tell people what say or think or do . Over and out.

all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 May 09 - 06:09 PM

The third world war comes with the march of the yellow men..... take my word for it!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: skarpi
Date: 10 May 09 - 06:19 PM

you know lox , I think I would like the little green better .

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: DougR
Date: 10 May 09 - 06:39 PM

Little Hawk: You think it is some people's pursuit of money and power that has led to this? I couldn't possibly disagree with you more. Rather I think it is thousands of insane Islamic terrorists that have brought us to this point in history. Part of the problem, I believe, is that so many people of the liberal persuasion believe, as you evidently do, that the quest for money, oil, power, or whatever, is the root cause of most of the world's problems. Folks who preach this philosophy don't take seriously enough the fact that Islamic extremists are on a religious crusade to destroy our world and transform it to one that they would control.

I don't think either you, or Skarpi would like living in such a world. I know I wouldn't.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 09 - 11:11 PM

Well, we disagree, Doug, because we disagree as to where those Islamic terrorists came from.

I believe they arose as a reaction to gross political and economic injustices perpetrated on Third World populations since the early 20th century BY large money-seeking entities that were based in Great Britain, France, Italy, the USA, and various other developed countries.

My mother visited Pakistan back in the 70s, Doug. What she saw then was a society that tremendously admired the West and wished to modernize itself in every way and emulate Britain and America, and a society that was peaceful and where things were getting steadily better. The Islamic fundamentalists we see now were barely even discernable. Their influence at the time was nil.

What she hears about Pakistan now from friends still living there is a tale of disaster...disaster that has been brought upon them by instability that has resulted from the West's oil wars in the Middle East, the war in Afghanistan, the Arab-Israeli conflict, and the Frankenstein monster of the Islamic Mujahedin fighters that the CIA trained and put together in the 80s to drive the Russians out of Afghanistan...those same people became the core and foundation from which grew the Taliban and Al Queda.

It is the West, Doug, who put Islamic fundamentalism on the map. If we had helped those societies modernize and liberalize instead, which is exactly what they were hoping to do a few decades back, you would not now have the existing problems with Islamic fundamentalism.

Our governments did it, Doug. They inspired and gave birth to the Islamic monster they are now warring against, and they did it for oil...and to hurt the Soviet Union. They made a very big mistake, and we are all now paying for it.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 09 - 11:37 PM

I might add one more note to that, Doug. I know a lot of Muslims living here in Canada. Not one of them is an Islamic funadamentalist (though most are people of strong religious faith), not one of them is insane, not one of them is a terrorist, not one of them has a good word to say about terrorism. They are people from India, Trinidad, Pakistan, the Middle East, and many other places. They are among the smartest and best people I have ever known. I have no reason to fear any of them.

There are a great many such people also living in Muslim countries right now, but our media never makes a peep about them. Ask yourself why that is?

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 09 - 12:07 AM

There are no more 'bad' Muslims than there are bad Christians, Jains, Buddists, Taoists, Atheists, Jews, Hindis, Shintos, Ba'hais, etc.
However, there are some seriously bad fucking leaders, imo, and much of their intent is informed by BIG business.

Politicians manufacture wars
That's what the body bags are for
There's better ways to leave no child behind
I truly have come to believe
In a very simple litany
You're selling war and mister I ain't buying

That said, there are Islamic leaders who no doubt see the chance to force Islam on the world. Try one out of every four people on this planet are Muslim. I hope it's a very small minority that follow the idiots who lead.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 09 - 07:28 AM

"that's the only way that person *** could possibly *** have that level of certainty. "


Really? You seem quite sure of yourself. Perhaps you might ask God to let the rest of us in on what is happening.

I am predicting- the level of certainty is based on the three points LH brought up:

"1. the intelligence of world leaders
2. their sense of moral responsibility
3. and how ruthless they are...
"

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 09 - 07:36 AM

LH,

"If we had helped those societies modernize and liberalize "


THAT is what the fundementalists are complaining about the most- so you think if we had done MORE of what they protest the most they would then love us more?


I have this bridge to sell you...

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: skarpi
Date: 11 May 09 - 07:49 AM

thousands of insane Islamic terrorists , ?? Doug , you know better
than this ., what Little Hawk just said is true , we brought
this over our self , by bringin the west to the east , very sad .

I also know like I said some Muslims here in Iceland , and they are good people , but there seems to be a diffrend both in Christian and Islam about the bible and the koran , people disagree about the meaning of the books ,.

Some christian people will go all the way by the book , also
like Taliban , they even change the koran , and now they say it the sarian law ??

Little hawk , thank you for you r post , it was well said .
kv Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 May 09 - 08:26 AM

the indigenous Icelandic people who were displaced and ethnically cleansed by the minority Nordic race (CarolC)

There were no indigenous Icelandic people and therefore the Nordic race was never a minority in Iceland.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 09 - 09:27 AM

Was there ever a Nordic race described in the hypothetical provided in an earlier post? My post was as hypothetical as that one. If there could have been a persecuted Nordic minority who sought refuge in Iceland, there equally could have been an indigenous people that were displaced by them. (Some people need to learn how to understand the concept of hypotheticals.)

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 09 - 09:29 AM

How ruthless the world leaders are?

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 09 - 09:47 AM

I think I phrased my second to last post badly, and we all know how much that bothers the poster whose point it is addressing. I shall endeavor to do a better job of it.

The post suggesting that the thread originator might feel differently about Israel than they do if (blah blah blah, hypothetical about a fictional persecuted Nordic minority seeking refuge in Iceland, blah blah blah blah), is proposing a scenario that has no basis in reality, but that is being used as a device to create in the mind of the thread originator some understanding of what the people in Israel might be feeling. The problem with this hypothetical is that it simply doesn't apply to the situation in Iceland, for precisely the reason articulated above, ie: the Israelis have been displacing and ethnically cleansing an indigenous population, while the people who settled in Iceland did not displace an indigenous population. The only way that the hypothetical could be set up so that it could approximate what has happened in Israel/Palestine, is to introduce a fictional indigenous people to be displaced and ethnically cleansed by the fictional persecuted Nordic people.

I hope that is sufficiently clear.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:04 AM

Carol,

if you want to clarify an ambiguous post could you try to do that without personal attacks?

Re: hypotheticals
Your original post has no unambiguous indication how far the "if" extends.
"If I was an Israeli (an inhabitant of the moon)" does not imply that there are no Israelis or inhabitants of the moon.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:20 AM

"and one thing , dont many Isreal people come from Russia as well ? "


Long history in Russia...

1905: A week-long pogrom marking one of the bloodiest periods in Russian Jewish history begins, spreading to dozens of towns and villages throughout Russia. Hundreds of Jews are killed, thousands are wounded and over forty thousand homes and shops are destroyed in the rioting.

three great waves of anti-Jewish rioting in the Russian Empire in 1881-82, 1903-06, and 1919-21

During the Civil War of 1918-1921, 2,000 pogroms left an estimated 100,000 Jews dead and more than half a million homeless.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:29 AM

Personal attacks? Have I said something that isn't true?

It wasn't necessary for my post to have an unambiguous indication how far the "if" extends, because it was an extension of the hypothetical in the post that preceded it.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 09 - 11:33 AM

BB - The point I was making was that, yes, the majority of Muslims DID want to mondernize and liberalize their societies several decades back...and they were enthusiastically trying to do so. The fundamentalists did not have much influence at all at that time. They later gained influence precisely because of the destabilization of those societies caused by western-backed coups (such as the one in Iran that overthrew their elected government in the 50's), western-backed dictators (who were backed usually because they were "anti-communist" and because they played ball with the oil companies), and western-financed wars...plus the ongong troubles with Israel, also seen as backed by the USA.

But the biggest push Islamic fundamentalism ever got was when Reagan's admininstration hunted up every crazy Islamic fanatic they could find and armed and trained them to fight the Russians in Afghanistan. Those were the Mujahedin, the forerunners of the Taliban and Al Queda. The Pakistani government was very worried about it at the time and warned the USA through their military intelligence people that Reagan's policy was creating "a Frankenstein monster" that would come back later to haunt them. And so it has, with a vengeance.

Without the irresponsible behaviour of the West which has destabilized Islamic nations and alienated their public in the last few decades, and which has armed, trained, and organized cells of Islamic Jihadists to kill Russians, you would not have had the successful rise of this militant form of Islamic fundamentalism. You would, on the contrary, have had the rise of fledgling democracies and modernization in many of those countries instead. The many Islamic people I know who came to Canada came here precisely because they wanted to live in a place that has democracy, prosperity, peace, and a modern lifestyle, and they wanted to live without fear of being attacked by someone. There are millions like them still living in their countries who desire the very same things.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 09 - 12:56 PM

Skarpi,

I am flattered that you took the time to give my post due consideration.

I am grateful that you should have weighed up the alternative of having ones feet tickled by little green men against the other hypotheticals in this thread and that you have given your honest response.

I am intrigued that you should have found that alternative most appealing.

But most importantly, I await - with great interest - your reaction to the more weighty matter of the nachos and the kangaroo. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 09 - 01:28 PM

Are you referring to employees of the Bick Pickle company?

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 May 09 - 01:33 PM

And all this time I thought that Kangaroos were allergic to nacho cheese.....

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: skarpi
Date: 11 May 09 - 01:39 PM

But most importantly, I await - with great interest - your reaction to the more weighty matter of the nachos and the kangaroo. ;-)

hahahaha
I rather have Brennivín and rotten shark thank you .
its an old viking food, witch I like alot , and I have to say some
of fellow Mudcatters have already try it with an awful result.

we still make that old way of do in this food , think of it
if would have to live without electric for our houses , all the food would be damage . for exsamble if we had a n-clear war .

kv Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 09 - 01:46 PM

It sounds disgusting!

The Brennivín and rotten shark, I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Lox
Date: 11 May 09 - 04:48 PM

Brennivin and rotten shark is the best argument in favour of nuclear war that I am aware of, though having said that I think it qualifies as both chemical and biological warfare combined and as such is a pretty potent WMD in its own right, so it serves as a detterrent to nuclear attack ...

the result is a scandanavian standoff.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 09 - 04:50 PM

I'm glad to see we're finally getting around to the stuff that really matters! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: heric
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:47 AM

Which stuff - the Brennivin or Jews on the moon?

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:22 AM

Jews on the Moon??? Wha-???? Has Woody Allen done a space trip recently or something?

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 09 - 07:33 AM

Be careful...you will have CaroC frantically searching the internet for somebody who says the Palestinians were there first.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: skarpi
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:02 AM

Be careful...you will have CaroC frantically searching the internet for somebody who says the Palestinians were there first. whaa !!!

to have the Brennivin and the rotten shark ?? no way men , this only done in the North atlantic area .

hee hee ,
kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 09 - 09:54 AM

How about lutefisk, Skarpi?

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:11 AM

Wow. I never would have expected such a cheap personal attack from that source. So noted.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:16 AM

...a cheap personal attack, and a straw man, no less. I'm disappointed.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: skarpi
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:36 AM

a cheap personal attack, and a straw man, no less. I'm disappointed.

Carol, its not an personal attack , not from me anyway .

kv Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 09 - 11:44 AM

No, I realize that. I was talking about the other person.

Thanks! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 09 - 12:19 PM

I note that the practice of attacking people who are working for Palestinian rights, using against them things they never said and attacking them for those things, is a standard hasbara tactic. It is used to smear and discredit the person it is being used against, not because the hasbara agent doing the attacking actually has any legitimate arguments, but rather, precisely because they don't have any legitimate arguments (because they are trying to defend the indefensible), so smears and personal attacks are all they have to work with.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: skarpi
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:33 PM

Just so you know , there a group of people who are now as we speak in Palestinian , helping people who have lost their legs ,
last week there was a soldier in US who lost his leg in Iraq , he got an electrical hi tec leg from company here in Iceland , called ÖSSUR ,
same people are now making legs for the palestinian people . Idont know
what kind of leg they are make , but its an leg so they can walk again.

And please dont start telling me that we are helping terrorist and bla bla bla bla bla , we just helping people who got in the middle
of this war .

Icelanders , and I am proud for that , we can help people.

Kv Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 09 - 01:37 PM

That's really good to know. There's good people all over the world who are working hard to try to help the people in Palestine. I would definitely have expected some of them to be from Iceland.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: artbrooks
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:56 PM

It was supposed to be a joke, Carol. But then, one has to have a sense of humor, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 12 May 09 - 04:58 PM

I have a great sense of humor. That smear just wasn't funny. It was a smear.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:30 PM

I predicted a war involving WMD by both sides, between the US or an ally and other parties, by August, 2009, IF the Democrats won the election ( this was BEFORE Obama was a candidate).


No reason yet to change my prediction.

beardedbruce, I advise you to start thinking about what to say if your doomsday prediction turns out to be wrong what I think is very likely. You could take a look at some religious fringe groups in the USA who have predicted the end of the world and have been wrong:

The first excuse is a slight change of the time. Give a few months and you have bought time. But then it becomes more difficult. They then usually say that their prayers have induced God to change his plans. I can't think of a useful way to apply this argument here.

Israel would in a false flag operation kill more than 50% of its inhabitants by triggering a nuclear bomb from their own arsenal at home and then try to blame Iran?

Complete nonsense.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 13 May 09 - 02:51 PM

Wolfgang,

"I advise you to start thinking about what to say if your doomsday prediction turns out to be wrong what I think is very likely."

Actually, I HOPE I am wrong, but FEAR that I am not. Just because my analysis of the situation leads me to this prediction does not mean I desire or wish for it to happen.

But how many times does Israel have to shout ( to Iran) "Stop! Or I'll shoot!"??? The rest of the world has been told that the illegal possesion of nuclear arms ( re the NPT) by Iran is NOT acceptable to Israel- and has done nothing.

Given that China gets oil from Iran, and a nuclear attack of Iran could well destroy those oil fields, and Russia has been taking Iran's side, can one really expect the situation as I have postulated as NOT becoming a world-wide conflict, with 200- 600 million dead? Wishing it does not happen will not make the situation change in the least.

When was it that the EU told Bush not to take any action against Iran, because the EU would resolve the problem "diplomatically"?

And at that time, how long was it before Iran could "Possibly " have a nuclear weapon?

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:14 PM

I did not suggest that Israel would use a nuclear bomb of their own as a false flag operation. That idea comes entirely from the second to last poster in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 09 - 10:14 PM

Well, it was second to last before I made my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 09 - 11:30 PM

I preume that August is the product of Iran having nuclear weapons in "six months"? Is that the scenario in which you make your predictions, bb? Starting from when? Are you postulating that the first thing that Iran will do is use its alleged nuclear weapons? Why?

I can see - just barely - why a country under attack and in danger of annihilation would use its ultimate weaponry but certainly not otherwise. Why would a nation invite certain destruction?

As for Israel "taking others/everyone down with them" there is no way I believe in that either. Reminds me too terribly much of a person bent on suicide but who decides to murder others before they go.

It also reminds me of the old 'better dead than read' screed from a few generations ago. I have never bought into that. In my opinion, no government has the right to condemn its people to death in the name of avoiding a political fate. "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day".

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 May 09 - 07:15 AM

Ebbie,

re:"In my opinion, no government has the right to condemn its people to death in the name of avoiding a political fate."


If Israel uses nuclear weapons, it will be because:

1. Deterence has failed.
2. The state of Israel is in real danger of being destroyed- by those who have stated they wish to killl all the Jews.

See WW II and Masada. Look at the 830,000 Jews driven from Arab nations ( Re the 640,000 Palestinian Arabs that fled Israel) - hear ANY calls for their rights of compensation?)When 35% + of the members of a religion have their lives taken, one might expect them to fight back.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 09 - 10:34 AM

To me, your answer doesn't match my questions.

Subject: RE: BS: WW3
From: pdq
Date: 14 May 09 - 10:41 AM

"...It also reminds me of the old 'better dead than read' screed..." ~ Ebbie

Are you talking about a book by Al Gore?