BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 09 - 10:16 PM

It must have occurred to anyone who is a student of history that the "story" is written by the victors. Therefore something might very well have happened and have been handed down by word-of-mouth through generations, but when a heckler demands to know "what's the source," the documentation is hard to come by.
                              Consider the factions that control what is published in the mean stream media today, and the many issues that you, yourself, might know a great deal about, and how often what is reported to the public is blatantly wrong. But you saw what you saw, and you know what you know, while the public continues to believe the fairy tale because you simply don't have a microphone.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 May 09 - 10:31 PM

If you don't think there is such a thing as a reliable source, especially when confirmed by other sources, you have no place in a historical discussion--though you will be a master of wasting everybody's time.

I'm sorry, but a Mudcatter who for instance believes that Hitler had no choice but to grow up a mass murderer since he was raised a Catholic, is not quite as reliable a source as some published authors might be.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 May 09 - 10:36 PM

Talk about those who "ramble on meaninglessly"--that wisdom about history and the victors was right on cue. I couldn't possibly have come up with a better illustration.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 09 - 06:59 AM

Over the course of the last year or so, we've been advised by many sources that Rupert Murdoch has purchased the Wall Street Journal--along with a series of other media outlets that were owned by the Journal. And we see posters use the WSJ as a source, but is that a reliable source?
          The following items were found in various Wikipedia sites. The source is Wikipedia:

Within a few years Murdoch was acting as the front-man for Oppenheimer, Bronfman, Armand Hammer, and the Rothschild empire. This almost limitless financial backing is the real force behind Murdoch's mercurial rise to control, among his other media interests, a yearly newspaper circulation of 3.5 billion copies.


Hammer was born in Manhattan, New York to Russian-born Jewish immigrants Julius and Rose (Robinson) Hammer.[5] His father (from a family that had made and lost its fortune in shipbuilding) was brought to the United States from Odessa in 1875, and settled in The Bronx, where he ran a general medical practice and five drugstores.

The Rothschild family (often referred to simply as the Rothschilds), is an international banking and finance dynasty of German Jewish origin that established operations across Europe, and was ennobled by the Austrian and British governments.

The Bronfman family is one of the most influential Jewish families in the world. It owes its initial fame to Samuel Bronfman (1889-1971), who made a fortune in the alcoholic distilled beverage business during the 20th century through the family's Seagram Company. The family is of Russian Jewish heritage. Most of its members are Canadian citizens, most of whom are based in Montreal and New York City.

Harry Frederick Oppenheimer (28 October 1908 – 19 August 2000) was a prominent South African businessman and one of the world's richest men. In 2004 he was voted 60th in the SABC3's Great South Africans.
The son of Sir Ernest Oppenheimer, Harry was born to an assimilated Jewish family of German origins in Kimberley, the original centre for diamond mining in South Africa, and lived most of his life in Johannesburg. He had a formal Bar mitzvah ("coming of age") ceremony in the Kimberley synagogue when he turned thirteen.


       So any source owned by Rupert Murdoch is probably not going to report much about the better part of Hitler, and will omit elements they don't want to see surface about WWII.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Teribus
Date: 22 May 09 - 11:02 AM

There again Riginslinger - History is not written by newspaper journalists or editors - so who does or does not provide financial backing to Rupert Murdoch is totally irrelevant.

I am actually amazed that there are any people left who actually believe what is written and reported in newspapers these days.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 09 - 11:50 AM

Well, Teribus, the discussion was really about "sources." One poster on this thread seems to think nothing can be true without a source. If the source was something Uncle Herb said in 1952, and Uncle Herb died 10 years ago, it has no credibility to him.

                        On the other hand, when we see historians research a topic, they often go back to the media of the day, be it newspapers or hieroglyphics. I would agree that historians--at least those without an axe to grind--get it more right than popular media, but they are still influenced by what is found. And certainly more by what is not found.

                         Therefore, if you have a conspiratorial media that is keeping some voices silenced, 50 years down the road, those voices won't be found by even the most dedicated historians.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: robomatic
Date: 22 May 09 - 02:13 PM

Rig:

You stream together a bunch of disparate factoids (not fact, reported as fact) frankly cherry-picked out of the thin silicon that is wikipedia and we are left with no additional knowledge but a very definite implication.

Even an organ grinder's monkey could do better!

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 09 - 09:55 PM

Oh, don't be hard on poor Rig. Just think of him as Mudcat's very own Red Queen.   Believing 6 impossible things before breakfast is child's play for him.   All he has to do is open his mouth and another pops out.   Let's see:

1)   Hitler's murderous nature is due to his Catholic upbringing.

2) Hillary would have been a stronger opponent for McCain.

3) That perennial favorite:   the danger of the world-wide Jewish banking conspiracy

4) The Brown Peril:   Illegal Mexican immigration will destroy the US.   


6 things?   No sweat.    And then another 16 before lunch.


But he does provide good comic relief. Anytime the discussion threatens to actually get anywhere, the class clown steps in.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 09 - 10:20 PM

Ron - I might quibble with the "Red Queen" analogy, but at least I don't use the Wall Street Journal as a source--which I thought was the point of this stretch of this conversation.
                     I think Hitler's murderous nature being due to his Catholic upbringing came from some place else. I think he was motivated by other forces.
                     As far as Hillary, I think she would have made a fine president, but Obama has surprised me. I'm very pleased with what he has done so far.
                     There is no real danger in the world-wide Jewish banking conspiracy--though it was kind of unfortunate what George Soros did to the UK a few years back--but I don't like the idea of being manipulated by outside forces.
                     Illegal immigration has pretty much done in California. It would be a good thing, in my opinion, if Obama does not bail them out and the people there are forced to deal with the problem that has caused them so much misery. Obama says he's going after the employers, though, which is a much better policy than George W. Bush's non-policy.
                     The Wall Street Journal is a good source if one wants to know how many bushels of corn were produced in Iowa last yeae, but as a political source, it's in the bag with the the New York Times.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 May 09 - 11:06 PM

Now, run along, don't you have some important TV to watch--maybe "America's Stupidest Conspiracy Theories", or something of that nature?

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 09 - 12:22 AM

I'm sure it pains you to discover that Fox News and MSNBC are on the same side, but...

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Teribus
Date: 23 May 09 - 03:10 AM

I'll stand by what I said Rig, newspaper journalists and editors do not write history.

A historian will use every source of information he can uncover. If something is worth reporting in the media that newspaper report will not be the only thing that records the event.

Changes in the way things are reported by the media over the years have to be taken into account as well. 100 years ago events were reported far more factually than they are today. What you get today is spin and predetermined opinion.

100 years ahead someone will pick up a copy of Piers Morgan's Daily Mirror and state that British troops abused Iraqi prisoners and provide photographic "evidence" to back it up - what that researcher will not know unless he has all the subsequent editions of the newspaper and other newspapers of the period will be that the photographic "evidence" was all fake and the incidents reported never happened at all. A historian will look at the photographic evidence and question it, if that historian studies military history and is familiar with the period they will deduce very quickly, from fairly basic sources (relating to uniform, equipment and weapons), that the photographs are fake.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: robomatic
Date: 23 May 09 - 08:59 AM

still waiting for the worldwide Jewish banking conspiracy to pay a dividend

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 23 May 09 - 09:33 AM

What if MacArthur had gone on to attack Manchuria in the Korean war?

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 09 - 09:45 AM

"...still waiting for the worldwide Jewish banking conspiracy to pay a dividend..."

               Maybe we forgot to mention, it only pays dividends to members of the conspiracy--though "conspiracy" is not really the right word.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 09 - 09:48 AM

"What if MacArthur had gone on to attack Manchuria in the Korean war?"


                     I suspect we'd still be there, the economic boom of the '50s and '60s wouldn't have happened, Vietnam probably wouldn't have happened, and Ronald Reagan would have become an opium addict in Los Angeles.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 May 09 - 11:12 AM

This is too pathetically easy but:   Fox News and MSNBC are not in fact both owned by Mr. Murdoch---(whose real name is probably thought by Mudcat's Red Queen to be Murdochstein ). The Queen will have to dig into his bottomless bag of stale conspiracy theories to find another one.   Tough luck.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 09 - 12:00 PM

Of course the owner's names are different that show up on the titles, but one is owned by Murdoch and the other is owned by America's largest defense contractor.
                         You need to do more research, Ron, and quit worrying about sources. This is all common knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: GUEST,CLETUS HARDDINGER
Date: 23 May 09 - 02:24 PM

I never much git ta say anything on theez kinda threads but heers one I know the answer to cuz I got a solid forth grayd edgeekashun!

Iffen Stalin had lived 10 yeerz longer heeda bin 10 yeerz older.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: robomatic
Date: 23 May 09 - 05:30 PM

"...still waiting for the worldwide Jewish banking conspiracy to pay a dividend..."

               Maybe we forgot to mention, it only pays dividends to members of the conspiracy--though "conspiracy" is not really the right word.

Well, according to YOU, rig, I qualify.

still waitin'....

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 May 09 - 08:36 PM

What can I say, robo, call up the board of directors and bitch!

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 May 09 - 01:05 PM

As usual, the Red Queen of Mudcat tells only part of the story. I suppose we should be grateful he got any part of it;   usually his version and the truth have only a coincidental relationship. MSNBC is owned both by GE and by Microsoft--as he should have been able to figure out.

Ah well, perhaps he needs to get some more input from "America's Most Stupid Conspiracy Theories",   which must be his favorite show by far.

So now he adds another to the list of his all-powerful foes:   Catholics, Jews, Mexicans ( a bit of overlap there with an earlier entry) and now GE. Ah yes, and not to forget his sworn enemies: sources, facts and logic.

I wonder if there's anything he's not afraid of.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 May 09 - 09:20 PM

Well, Ron, as long as you are going to refuse to research anything, he's certainly not afraid of you. Though maybe he should be, collectively, if theres enough of you, and you all vote.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:27 PM

Not afraid of me. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I am neither Catholic, Jewish, Mexican, black, nor an employee of GE--nor a strong Christian or believer of any stripe.

It seems to be mainly these which summon forth the Queen's irrational fear and hate. Who knows why.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:34 PM

I can recall when Ronald Reagan was selected to host the General Electric Theater. He used the notoriety to launch into a campaign for president, and was probably the only General Electric employee that I ever came to fear and hate.

Subject: RE: BS: What if Stalin had lived 10 years longer
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 May 09 - 09:59 PM

Truth be told, it's probably not the attitude toward GE employees which is the problem.

On the other hand, the attitude toward blacks, Jews, Catholics, Mexicans etc...