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Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'

Related threads:
Anyone doing 'Hey Joe'??? (22)
Lyr Req: Hey Joe (23)
Hey Joe (10)


GUEST,Bluesman James 23 May 09 - 11:02 AM
meself 23 May 09 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,Bluesman James 23 May 09 - 11:48 AM
Richard Bridge 23 May 09 - 12:43 PM
Dave the Gnome 23 May 09 - 01:47 PM
M.Ted 23 May 09 - 04:09 PM
Richard Bridge 23 May 09 - 04:18 PM
GUEST,Bluesman 23 May 09 - 06:36 PM
M.Ted 24 May 09 - 12:36 AM
Mick Woods 24 May 09 - 03:33 AM
M.Ted 25 May 09 - 01:34 AM
Mick Woods 25 May 09 - 02:45 AM
Lonesome EJ 23 Dec 10 - 01:43 PM
G-Force 23 Dec 10 - 01:59 PM
Lonesome EJ 23 Dec 10 - 02:40 PM
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Subject: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: GUEST,Bluesman James
Date: 23 May 09 - 11:02 AM

Greetings folks, I have been playing and rediscovered this tune.
I came across an old youtube of the late Tim Rose doing this on his 12 string. Before this, I was not aware of the late Tim Rose and his work. Apparently, he also had a big hit covering Bonnie Dobson's "Morning Dew"
But Tim's life is worthy of a song in itself. He almost became a priest, was in the Air Force, did a lot of recording in the UK where his version of "Hey Joe" was discovered by Chas Chandler (ex Animal and Jimi Hendrix manager) According to Chandler, Hendrix did not want to record it and Chandler had to force him to do it. The rest is history. But what is interesting is the origin of the song.
On a BBC series "Later with Joolz Holland, Tim Rose makes the claim that the song was based upon some Appalachian ballad. The song is copy written to a Billy Roberts (another obscure singer) I did some research with the Library of Congress and there is no proof of Rose's claim. This story is getting interesting. Any folklorists have additional information. In the meantime, the song sounds great on a 12 string.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: meself
Date: 23 May 09 - 11:10 AM

"there is no proof of Rose's claim"

On the other hand, there is not exactly a shortage of Appalachian ballads concerning psychopaths dispatching their lovers, by a variety of means. Someone will quickly supply the title of the one in which the protagonist goes to sleep with a ".44 smokeless" under his head. Always struck me as a bit of an uncomfortable pillow - but people were tougher back then.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: GUEST,Bluesman James
Date: 23 May 09 - 11:48 AM

Funny you should mention that. In Tim Rose version, He doesn't sing "where you goin` with that gun in your hand" He sings "Where you goin with that blue steel 44" Has anyone heard or know of the Billy Roberts version?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 09 - 12:43 PM

I think Love's version uses that lyric too.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 May 09 - 01:47 PM

Irish (I think) pop-folkers or folk-poppers, Lick the Tins, also did a splendid version including a tin whistle break!

Just out of interest. Probably only to me...

:D (eG


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 May 09 - 04:09 PM

Tim Rose never was able to find an Appalachian ballad that was close enough to "Hey, Joe" to absolve him of paying royalties to Billy Roberts. There is a long discussion of this in the Wikipedia--


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 May 09 - 04:18 PM

The Hendrix estate are prodigious litigators. Maybe they would like to take this problem on?


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: GUEST,Bluesman
Date: 23 May 09 - 06:36 PM

Thank you all for this lively percussion. Richard Bridge, I don't know if this is a "problem" As a Bluesman I have always had a fascination with the history of songs and how they came about. I remember this Dock Watson vinyl (title escapes me) The last song was "Tom Dolley" and the half of the liner notes were the history of the song and who was related to who and how. I am sure the Lomax family expended a great deal of time on this subject as they were cataloging their songs


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 May 09 - 12:36 AM

Here is a very interesting "Hey Joe" page, with picture of Roberts, details on him, a copy of the original lead sheet, a recent photo, and a recording of the man himself, singing with some of the Quicksilver guys.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: Mick Woods
Date: 24 May 09 - 03:33 AM

Talking of Quicksilver - didn't Dino Valenti write "Hey Joe" and eventually lose all rights to it in a dodgy deal with some mafia type crooks to pay his bail and get him released from prison. The story is that he also lost to them the rights of "Get Together" That is why later songs that he wrote were attributed to Jesse Oris Farrow. If you look at early vinyl copies of this by Love and The Leaves, Dino is credited. Certainly on the UK issue of Loves first album.


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:34 AM

Here's the page I thought that I posted above: Hey Joe Page

Here is that page's explanation of the Dino Valente copyright from one Pat Craig, who knew Dino and Billy in SF in the early sixties:

"The confusion about Dino's ownership of the song came from an act of generosity on Billy's part when Dino was in jail. Billy signed over the rights to the song to give Dino some collateral to get out of jail. Billy did write the song, but as you say, it is based on many old Delta Blues themes and is probably very much "rearranged" from several different versions of very similar songs. When we were kids in the early 60's we listened to Leadbelly, Dave Von Ronk, and any old blues stuff we could get our hands on. Hey Joe, if you look at it is almost a generic blues piece. Billy, however did put together the version we all know."

However, also on the page, it mentions that Dino copyrighted the song after Billy did,
and Billy engaged and attorney (his manager's dad) who took documentation to Third Story Music, who were the publishers, and who then began paying royalties to Billy.


One never quite knows what to believe in these situations--but it seems clear that Billy Roberts held a copyright that was earlier by far than any recordings, and no one seems to have found any evidence of an older folk song--


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: Mick Woods
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:45 AM

Thanks for that Ted - by the way it's about time we saw you at the new folkmob venue!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:43 PM

Just came across a Youtube version by Willy Deville and I love it, vato!


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: G-Force
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 01:59 PM

It may be based on older blues or ballads, but that particular tune and especially that distinctive chord sequence are surely original. I remember being gobsmacked when I first heard it (by Hendrix on, I think, 'Ready Steady Go' in 1966).


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Subject: RE: Origins: Tim Rose and the story of 'Hey Joe'
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 02:40 PM

I agree. The C-G-D-A-E sequence is indeed unique and doesn't follow the classic 1-4-5 blues progression, and I see it as closer to a traditional ballad form than blues, lyrics aside. The possibility of an Irish or British melody antecedent is interesting, and I don't know if that sequence is seen in any ballad forms, but I am curious about it.


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