Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?

Subject: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 08:21 AM

A review of chapter 6 in Elijah Wald's recently published book How the Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll contains this quote and paragraph:

"Paul Whiteman was known as the King of Jazz, and no one as yet has come near carrying that title with more certainty and dignity." -- Duke Ellington

Paul Whiteman led the most popular and influential orchestra of the 1920s. Hiring some of the period's finest musicians and arrangers, who mixed classical techniques with jazz rhythms and melodies, he started out making huge hits like 1920's "Whispering," then created the decade's equivalent of Sgt Pepper when he comissioned George Gershwin to write A Rhapsody in Blue (this is the original 1924 version with Gershwin on piano). In the phrase of the time, he "made a lady out of jazz," changing it from a music of small, hot improvising bands into a style arranged for formal dance orchestras and concert presentations.

-snip-

I'm interested in exploring in this thread why some people thought or still think that Paul Whiteman was/is considered the "King of Jazz". I'm also interested in folks' opinions about whether "making a lady out of jazz" was a good thing or not.

Of course, other thoughts about jazz then and now are also welcome in this thread.

Thanks in advance for your participation in this discussion.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 08:33 AM

I admit right of the bat that I know very little about jazz music. I didn't grow listening (or dancing) to it, and only became acquainted with some jazz {Jusef Latif, Donald Byrd, Pharoah Saunders, Miles Davis, John Coltrane) when I married my (now ex) husband who was a jazz musician (trumpet/fugel horn).

And I admit right of the bat that I have problems with the idea that a White man (ironically named Whiteman) is considered the king of a musical tradition that originated with and was (is still?) heavily influenced by African American people.

Perhaps if Paul Whiteman were considered the King of White jazz music that would sit better with me (not that it matters a hill of beans what I feel or think).

But is there such a thing as White jazz music and Black jazz music (similarly to there being Black (American) gospel music and White (American) gospel music?

I'm introducing this topic and asking these questions not to stir up arguments, but because I really want to know what folks think about this subject.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 09 - 08:54 AM

Azizi - Frankly, I didn't know anything about Paul Whiteman, though I'd heard a lot about Duke Ellington from a very early age. My folks had some 78 RPM records of Ellington's. The first time I ran across the name of Paul Whiteman was when I was doing some research on Jack Teagarden for something I was writing and discovered that Teagarden had entered into a contract with Whiteman which prevented him from going solo for a number of years. The writer of the article seemed to think that the contractual arrangement kept Teagarden from attaining the notoriety that he otherwise would have.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:03 AM

Here's an excerpt from an online article about Paul Whiteman:

On October 23, 1928, a deal was made with Carl Laemmle and Nat Goldstone of Universal Studios for Paul Whiteman to appear with his band in an upcoming motion picture. Universal assigned Paul Schofield as a writer for the movie. During the month of November jn 1928, Schofield had traveled on the road with the Whiteman Orchestra, meeting with Whiteman to discuss the story on the train between stops. On December 23, 1928, Paul Whiteman gave a concert at Carnegie Hall, with Bee Palmer as an added attraction... Universal Pictures filmed the concert for possible use in the motion picture planned with Whiteman in the following year. The film, "King of Jazz", was finally completed in 1930, but did not include any of the footage from the Carnegie Hall concert...

"King of Jazz" was the first motion picture to use a pre-recorded soundtrack made independently of the actual filming. Whiteman insisted that the entire soundtrack should be pre-recorded in order to obtain the best sound, and avoiding the poor recording conditions and extraneous noises found in a movie studio. Universal opposed the idea, but Whiteman insisted and prevailed over the reluctant studio executives. After the sound was recorded, the scene was filmed. Later, the film was synchronized to the soundtrack. Also, this allowed the movie to be directed in the same manner as a silent film, with resulting sounds not affecting the completed film. ..

The movie won an Oscar for Herman Rosse in the category of Best Art Decoration/Set Decoration in 1930 (the only category for which the film was nominated). The Oscar was presented at the Academy Awards ceremony held on November 5, 1930 at 8:00 PM in the Fiesta Room of the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, California. This ceremony was broadcast on the radio.

During its national release, "King of Jazz" cleared less than $900,000. Around Hollywood, the movie came to be called "Universal's Rhapsody in the Red". Overseas, it fared better and eventually made a profit. During the 1930s, the film found its best audience in Cape Town, South Africa, where it played seventeen return engagements. Unfortunately, the delays in obtaining a script resulted in two factors that affected the profitability of the film. First, the public was tiring of the plethora of movie musicals that started with the film "Broadway Melody" in 1929. Also, the Depression resulted in an economic downturn that caused people to focus more on essentials, thereby preventing a more successful run of the movie. In fact, because of poor box office receipts and the Old Gold radio program not being renewed in April 1930, Whiteman had to let 10 bandmembers go and cut salaries by 15% on the remaining bandmembers.

http://www.redhotjazz.com/kingofjazz.html

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:10 AM

Riginslinger, I don't know anything about Paul Whiteman either, but as I said earlier, I know very little about jazz.

And because I know so little about jazz, I'm not proposing anyone else's name as the "King of Jazz" or the "Queen of Jazz". But it occurs to me that just as there are more than one king and queen at the same time and at successive times, there can be more than one "king and queen of jazz".

Also I'm aware about jazz enough to know that there are different types of jazz-Dixieland jazz, cool jazz, and more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

So maybe there were/are leaders (kings/queens) for each of these types of jazz.

??

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:13 AM

Here's another excerpt from the "King of Jazz" article by Dennis Pereyra

"The [KIng of Jazz] movie included the first Technicolor animated cartoon segment by animators Walter Lantz (later famous for Woody Woodpecker and other characters) and William Nolan. In this cartoon, Whiteman is hunting in darkest Africa when he is chased by a lion, who is soothed with the music from his violin ("Music Hath Charms", with Joe Venuti and Eddie Lang). After an elephant squirts water on a monkey in a tree, the monkey throws a cocoanut at the elephant, which hits Whiteman on the head. The bump on his head forms into a crown. As Charles Irwin then says, "And that's how Paul Whiteman was crowned the 'King of Jazz'". One of the characters making a brief appearance in the cartoon was Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, the star of the Universal cartoon studio led byLantz. Additionally a black-and-white sound cartoon featuring Oswald the Lucky Rabbit titled "My Pal Paul", that was released in 1930 by Universal, promoted the "King of Jazz" movie by including songs from the movie and the cartoon Paul Whiteman character."

http://www.redhotjazz.com/kingofjazz.html

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:14 AM

Azizi - I think you probably nailed it when you cited the movie. Once something gets onto the silver screen--especially in those days--it becomes gospel, even if it's wrong.

                Frankly, from what I know about it--and that's not much--I'd say Louie Armstrong deserves the title of "King of Jazz."

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:30 AM

The paragraph from the "King of Jazz" movie about an elephant squirting water on a monkey in the tree makes me think of The Signifying Monkey.

Check out this version of The Signifying Monkey with a provocative introductory comment:

"This is a relatively clean version of one of these songs which appeared in The Book of American Negro Folklore (1958). From the Norton Anthology of African American Literature. The Lion, as you can see, is a particularly bad reader: he takes the monkey's words literally over and over again.

The Monkey and the Lion
Got to talking one day.
Monkey looked down and said, Lion,
I hear you's king in every way.
But I know someone
Who do not think that is true—
He told me he could whip
The living daylights out of you.
Lion said, Who?
Monkey said, Lion,
He talked about your mama
And talked about your grandma, too,
And I'm too polite to tell you
What he said about you.
Lion said, Who said what? Who?
Monkey in the tree,
Lion on the ground.
Monkey kept on signifying
But he didn't come down.
Monkey said, His name is Elephant—
He stone sure not your friend.
Lion said, He don't need to be
Because today will be his end.
Lion took off through the jungle
Lickity-split,
Meaning to grab Elephant
And tear him bit by bit. Period!
He come across Elephant copping a righteous nod
Under a fine cool shady tree.
Lion said, You big old no-good so-and-so,
It's either you or me.
Lion let out a solid roar
And bopped Elephant with his paw.
Elephant just took his trunk
And busted old Lion's jaw.
Lion let out another roar,
Reared up six feet tall.
Elephant just kicked him in the belly
And laughed to see him drop and fall.
Lion rolled over,
Copped Elephant by the throat.
Elephant just shook him loose
And butted him like a goat,
Then he tromped him and he stomped him
Till the Lion yelled, Oh, no!
And it was near-night sunset
When Elephant let Lion go.
The signifying Monkey
Was still setting in his tree
When he looked down and saw the Lion.
Said, Why, Lion, who can that there be?
Lion said, It's me.
Monkey rapped, Why, Lion,
You look more dead than alive!
Lion said, Monkey, I don't want
To hear your jive-end jive.
Monkey just kept on signifying,
Lion, you for sure caught hell—
Mister Elephant's done whipped you
To a fare-thee-well!
Why, Lion, you look like to me
You been to the precinct station
And had the third degree,
Else you look like
You been high on gage
And done got caught
In a monkey cage!
You ain't no king to me.
Facts, I don't think that you
Can even as much as roar—
And if you try I'm liable
To come down out of this tree and
Whip your tail some more.
The Monkey started laughing
And jumping up and down.
But he jumped so hard the limb broke
And he landed—bam!—on the ground.
When he went to run, his foot slipped
And he fell flat down.
Grrr-rrr-rr-r! The Lion was on him
With his front feet and his hind.
Monkey hollered, Ow!
I didn't mean it, Mister Lion!
Lion said, You little flea-bag you!
Why I'll eat you up alive.
I wouldn't a-been in this fix a-tall
Wasn't for your signifying jive.
Please, said Monkey, Mister Lion,
If you'll just let me go,
I got something to tell you, please,
I think you ought to know.
Lion let the Monkey loose
To see what his tale could be—
And Monkey jumped right back on up
Into his tree.
What I was gonna tell you, said Monkey,
Is you square old so-and-so,
If you fool with me I'll get
Elephant to whip your head some more.
Monkey, said the Lion,
Beat to his unbooted knees,
You and all your signifying children
Better stay up in them trees.
Which is why today
Monkey does his signifying
A-way-up out of the way.

http://www.cwrl.utexas.edu/~boade/fall03/signifying.html
African American Literature and Culture
[e-mail]

"The Signifying Monkey"

snip-

All of which leads me to wonder if Duke Ellington was just being political when he stated that Paul Whiteman was the King of Jazz or was Duke Ellington signifyin' (in a manner of speaking?) And to paraphrase that introductory comment presented above, are we being "bad readers" if we take Ellington's words about Paul Whiteman being the King of Jazz at face value?

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:34 AM

Given the racism of those times, would White people have conferred the title of "King of Jazz" on any Black man?

[That's a rhetorical question. I know the answer is "No".]

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 May 09 - 10:10 AM

The history of jazz is as splintered as any music out there. We all tend to pay homage to those who came before that advanced or changed the history of "whatever." Just as Wynton Marsalis does so in his excellent series on The Duke, so did Ellington in recognizing Whiteman. And make no mistake, Whiteman was an early influence of major proportion.

I doubt there was much of a racial element to it as I think there were far fewer racial divisions in jazz than the rest of society. I could be wrong......just a personal opinion.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 May 09 - 10:13 AM

btw, the KOJ title was given to PW long before Ellington's comment and considring his early influence, it was not a bad call. I don't like PW in this day and age but that has no bearing on what he did for the genre.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 09 - 10:16 AM

But here's something that just came to me: a lot of the famous white musicians like Kid Ory, Jack Teagarden, Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey played trombones, while a number of the black musicians like Louie Armstrong, Miles Davis, and Dizzy Gilespie played trumpets. Does an African voice sound more like a trumpet, and a European voice sound more like a trombone?
                      I'm sure one could make too much of this, but it is kind of an interesting side-line event.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 May 09 - 11:15 AM

LOL.......and drummers.......or reed playeers? I wanna's see where you can go with this........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: pdq
Date: 25 May 09 - 11:29 AM

Kid Ory, Barney Bigard and Fletcher Henderson were not very dark skinned but they were ethnically Black.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 11:45 AM

There are/were plenty of top class white trumpet players - Bix Beiderbeck, Chet Baker, Harry James spring to mind. I've always put Bix on a par with Louis Armstrong and he was (to my mind) the only really good thing about the Whiteman orchestra.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:14 PM

Blues is indisputably an african american tradition that has been adopted by white musicians.

Jazz does not trace back to an african american ancestor.

Aspects of Jazz trace back to African American Roots, but it is a hotch potch of influences.

In blues, it is clear that the origins lie with Black performers.

In Jazz, it is not clear that this is the case and amongst Jazz musicians there has never been any sense of Race snobbery, but a healthy respect for the key movers in Jazz history.

Jazz is not a style of music that the ear grows accustomed to easily, but is a style that must be learned and studied.

Not necessarily at an academic institution, but it must be studie nonetheless.

There is no significant Jazz musician who did not study the work of his predecessors.

Some, like wes montgomery and chet baker were so talented that they were able to learn how to do it by listeing intently to the work of the masters who went before, but most learned it from some kind of mentor.

So Jazz was never a roots musical style in itself, but always a complex art form constructed from pieces of roots artforms.

John coltrane once said of Stan Getz "everybody wishes they could play like Stan" or words to that effect.

The influence of Jazz musicians on each other, and the respect they had for eacch other was unaffected by race as they all knew how hard it was to be a good jazz musician and they all knew that no racist thug was in any position to pass comment on a subject that was most likely to be entirely beyond their ability to comprehend.


The Audiences and the Club owners were of course a different kettle of fish ...

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:32 PM

The essential fact, to my mind, is that jazz is an improvised medium. How and in what fashion that improvisation takes place is not germane to the argument, but it is improvised - that's what makes the music "jazz".

Whiteman's orchestra included some of the most talented singers and jazz musicians of the day - mainly white - but what the orchestra played as an entity was not improvised and was not jazz. The scores were carefully orchestrated - and there were some passages - particularly for instrumentalists like Bix Beiderbecke - where some improvised solo passages could be played. But the "King of Jazz" sobriquet was applied to Whiteman by himself. The jazz musicians in the orchestra - Beiderbecke, Frankie Trumbauer, Joe Venuti, Eddie Lang - played their best jazz outside the umbrella of the Whiteman orchestra. The vocalists in Whiteman's male trio "The Rhythm Boys" were Al Rinker, Harry Barris and Bing Crosby and, to some extent, they were able to scat within the confines of the song - "Mississippi Mud" is an example.

Cornettist Dick Sudhalter re-created the Whiteman sound, from the original scores, in two London concerts around 1972. They were fantastic concerts, and the huge sound that emanated from the orchestra showed how little the 78rpm recordings of the time convey the impact of the band. But it wasn't jazz = it was close to it, but not it.

Ellington - the supreme gentleman - was being kind about Whiteman, but the title was nearer to him than Whiteman.

For a better picture of how orchestrated passages could be interspersed with wonderful jazz solos, take any recording of Jelly Roll Morton and the Red Hot Peppers. The contrasting stories of Whiteman - feted to the skies - and Morton - ripped off by the (white) Melrose Brothers - makes sad reading.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:46 PM

"...and drummers.......or reed playeers? I wanna's see where you can go with this........"


                In the sense of trying to stay on topic, things seem to turn around with reeds. Pete Fountain, Benny Goodman, and
Artie Shaw played clarinets and were white, while John Coltrain and
Charlie Parker played saxaphones.

                European voices singing high notes sound like clarinets, while their lower notes sound like trombones: while African voices singing higher notes sound like trumpets, while their lower notes sound like saxaphones.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:50 PM

Azizi,

You are right that there were leaders of different types of Jazz.

The simplest way I have heard it explained is as follows.

The history of Jazz can be viewed as a succession of peaks, with different significant proponents at the top of each peak.

Each successive peak represented a new stage in the evolution of Jazz.

The genres of Jazz that you refer to above represent those stages.

So Jazz is a Genre in the same way as Classical.

The overarching umbrella of wht most people refer to as Classical music, includes a line of progression from Medieval, renaissance, and baroque, through classical, romantic, modern and postmodern composition.

Each of those stages is best exemplified by specific composers who did the best job of distilling and developing new compositional ideas that were emerging. So You have Palestrina, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Wagner, Stravinsky, Reich, Part etc emerging in a line from the compositinal primordial ooze, each successor being a little more advanced than his predecessor, but only as a result of his predecessors discoveries.

The same is true in Jazz, roughly beginning with Sidney Bechet and Louis Armstrong, (Swing) Going through Bix Beiderbeck, Duke Ellington, Fletcher henderson, Don Redmond (Birth of Big Bands), Coleman Hawkins (improvising on harmony instead of melody), Benny Goodman, Lester young, count Basie, Freddie Green (Lighter Rhythmic feel), Art Tatum , Nat King Cole (Inspirations for Bebop), Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Charlie Christian, (Masters of Bebop), Thelonius Monk, Bud Powell, Gil Evans, (era of cool Jazz) Lenny Tristano, Jerry Mulligan, Lee Konitz, Miles Davis, (Rebirth of Modal Harmony) Miles' Children: John McLaughlin, Keith Jarret, Chick Corea, Joe Zawinul, Bill evans (reintroduction of inversions and Red Garlands use of rootless voicings), Clifford Brown, and Max Roach (Hard Bop/Post Bop), McCoy Tyner and John Coltrane (free Jazz).


The important thing is the accumulation of knowledge and the advancement of the artform, not the ethnicity of those who have worked so hard to develop it.

It is of course important to note that Jazz musicians were not only influenced by theri predecessores in Jazz but also by their predecessors in "classical" composition and indeed their contemporaries in that genre.

Jazz has a similar history

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:50 PM

Two great black clarinettists - Johnny Dodds and Sidney Bechet...

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:50 PM

Sorry Riginslinger, but thats silly. Every instrument had and has its virtusos from both black and white communities. The clarinet as a 'white' instrument? Johnny Dodds, Alphonse Picou,Sidney Bechet, George Lewis?

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:53 PM

Terry - we're obviously on the same wavelength.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:54 PM

Stan Getz - A white sax player.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 12:58 PM

Jazz is an improvised medium, but it can be composed too and Jelly Roll morton and Gil evans are both example of Jazz composers whose work is Jazz.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:04 PM

Yes, Will - like you my original love was jazz and I even played banjo in a New Orleans type band c1960. I saw Kid Ory in London around that time and the clue to his ethnicity is probably in his band's name 'Kid Ory's Creole Jazz Band.'

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:07 PM

In my book, Morton's Red Hot Peppers recordings represent the first written arrangements of tunes with passages specified for solo jazz improvisations. Jelly Roll Morton was a vain, self-opinionated hustler, a pimp and a braggadocio - but he was one of the most original pianists and arrangers of his day. Every one of his recordings is worth listening to, and the Peppers ensembles, even today, sound absolutely superb.

He was derided in later years - particularly in the 1940s - but time has reversed that opinion. We're also lucky in that Alan Lomax made his epic reordings of Morton playing and reminiscing for the Library of Congress shortly before Morton died. Lomax's book "Mr. Jelly Lord" is flawed in many ways, but is still the first proper homage to a historic musician. His publishers, the Melrose Brothers, insisted that Morton couldn't write music and, like many before and after, also insisted on getting their names on Morton's music as co-composers. Many of Morton's handwritten scores exist today...

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:10 PM

Terry - I too played (or attempted to play) tenor banjo in a vaguely mainstream jazz band in the late '70s. We used to do early Ellington and some Morton arrangements now and then. Great fun. I was recently in touch with Babette Ory - Kid Ory's daughter - about his composition "Muskrat Ramble". Strange how the years can roll back!

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 May 09 - 01:40 PM

Good points, Lox--admirably comprehensive, yet concise and to the point. Given the tensions between fans of the different schools of jazz, there is more potential for conflict here than in the tedious discussions about "what is folk music?"

Duke Ellington once said something to the effect that there is a lot less improvisation in jazz than is generally imagined--and the "jazz" of the jazz age was played from arrangements, and over time, though the improvisations of soloists seem to define jazz, what it sounds like really has more to do with the arrangers, like Don Redman and Gil Evans, than anything else.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:07 PM

Thanks to those who have posted on this thread.

I'm glad to know as Lox put it that "The important thing is the accumulation of knowledge and the advancement of the artform, not the ethnicity of those who have worked so hard to develop it."

However, I dare say that this same disregard for race was not the norm among most of the jazz musicians' audiences, the nightclub owners, the radio hosts, the movie producers etc.

For instance, I suspect that although jam sessions at juke joints or wherever might occasionally be integrated, the paid gigs were rarely if ever integrated. And I suspect that the "King of Jazz" movie only featured White musicians.

Which leads me to the same conclusion that mainstream American [USA] society would have been {and probably still is to a lesser degree] unwilling to confer the title of King of Jazz on a Black man.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:07 PM

About Jelly Roll Morton--he was regarded as an anachronism in the 40's, and even before then, because his style was the "Storyville" style, which was music from a time long gone by.
Of course, for us, the jazz of the 40s is music from a time long gone by too, so that's not a bad thing--

Here is the Red Hot Jazz page--Jellyroll Morton the music files are at the bottom of the page, and they're great!--

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:14 PM

Btw, lox, I strongly disagree with your statement that "Jazz does not trace back to an african american ancestor."

I would have agreed with you if you had written that Jazz is a blending of African and European musical traditions that was first performed by African American musicians.

Is this what you meant?

See this comment from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz

"Jazz is a musical art form which originated at the beginning of the 20th century in African American communities in the Southern United States from a confluence of African and European music traditions. The style's West African pedigree is evident in its use of blue notes, improvisation, polyrhythms, syncopation, and the swung note."

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:18 PM

Btw, though Jelly Roll Morton and some other New Orleans Creoles may have disagreed (and may still disagree), adhering to the USA's social definition of race, I categorize Creoles with Black African and non-Black African ancestry as "African Americans." Hence, as far as I (and most African Americans) are concerned, Jelly Roll Morton was a Creole and he was African American.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:19 PM

Well Azizi - two white bandleaders who conspicuously used black and white singers and musicians were Artie Shaw and Benny Goodman. Shaw had huge problems when touring in the South - as you can imagine - with Billie Holiday as his vocalist. She left his band owing to pressure from the Southern audiences and the difficulty of staying in hotels, etc. Shaw persevered with a mixed band for as long as he could, and this stance does him huge credit. Shaw, incidentally, was Jewish and an intellectual. His autobiography is worth reading.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:22 PM

Sorry Azizi - just overlapped with your last post. Lomax's book about Morton makes out that there was a huge snobbery in New Orleans in the early years of the 20th century - with Creoles (some French ancestry) "looking down" upon black Americans with disdain. More up-to-date research indicates that either Morton, or more probably Lomax, grossly exaggerated this racial split to give the biography more dramatic effect.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: pdq
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:32 PM

The following statement was made:

"a lot of the famous white musicians like Kid Ory, Jack Teagarden, Glenn Miller and Tommy Dorsey..."

I simply corrected that statement.

BTW, Jack and Charlie Teagarden were born on an Indian reservation in Texas and paid as little attention to race as possible.

Jack Teagarden has no equal on the trombone. His best work was probably done in the 1950s.

He relates to the topic in that he signed a long-term contract with Paul Whiteman which prevented him from reaching his potential as creative musician for many years.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:35 PM

Benny Goodman was also Jewish and there does seem to be some sort of affinity between Jews and African-Americans where music was concerned. Anti Semitism was, of course, common between the wars so that probably helps explain it.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 25 May 09 - 02:50 PM

Paul Whiteman also commissioned and introduced "Rhapsody in Blue" by G. Gershwin. His rendition was a lot jazzier than later versions of the piece, many of which tend to be more serious. If I repeated any previous information, I apologize.

               ============================

Azizi - It serendipitous that you posted, today, from the book of Negro folk lore. In going through my sons's belongings to sell at our quintenniel (is that every fifth year?) garage sale, I came across that very title. I set it aside for my vacation reading; it is then going into my own folk library.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:00 PM

"Which leads me to the same conclusion that mainstream American [USA] society would have been {and probably still is to a lesser degree] unwilling to confer the title of King of Jazz on a Black man."

            I'm quite certain that wouldn't be true of knowledgeable Americans. Anyone who looked into the origins of jazz, I would think, would concede that the King of Jazz would have to be someone with African roots.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Leadbelly
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:12 PM

King of jazz? A more apt sobriquet might have been "King of Dance" or "King of Show", a fact incontestably proven by a glance at any of his classy film appearances, including "King of Jazz" and many others.
Personally, I do prefer Jean Goldkette and his Orchestra. Same time, same place, same kind of music.
Concerning Paul Whiteman, it should be mentioned, that he was a very social character. Read about what he had done for poor Bismark "Bix" Beiderbecke when he was unable to play his cornet in Whiteman's orchestra because of abuse of alcohol.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:18 PM

Whiteman was a generous man, as you say. He treated Bix as well as any man could, given the circumstances - and many another bandleader wouldn't have done that.

Incidentally, does anyone remember that great film "Pete Kelly's Blues", directed and starring Jack Webb of TV series "Dragnet" fame? It had Peggy Lee and Ella Fitzgrald in it, among others. Gave an excellent portrayal of the sorts of band that Bix and others played in. The opening sequence of a New Orleans funeral, with the trumpet falling off the coffin, is matched by the end sequence in the empty ballroom, with a standoff between Webb and Ed O. Brien. Wish I had it on DVD...

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: pdq
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:30 PM

If we are going to mention Jean Goldkette, let's include the California Ramblers too.

Whiteman's orchestra, Goldkette's orchestra and the California Ramblers were all fine dance bands and had many fine musicians who served in more than one group. How much content was really "jazz" is a matter of opinion.

Despite the name, the California Ramblers never made it west to the Golden State.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:42 PM

I love Pete Kelly's Blues - it's cropped up on British television once or twice.

re Bix - I always liked the story that the second trumpeter (or cornettist?) in Whiteman's orchestra had 'Wake Bix up' written on his score, a few bars before the great man was scheduled to play one of his dazzling solos.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 03:43 PM

"Which leads me to the same conclusion that mainstream American [USA] society would have been {and probably still is to a lesser degree] unwilling to confer the title of King of Jazz on a Black man."

Mainstream America does not listen to Jazz.

Neither is mainstream America qualified to confer such titles.

Mainstream America has nothing to do with it.

Though it should be pointed out that the most loved Jazz musicians by mainstream America are Miles Davis (Kind of Blue) and before him Louis Armstrong.

There is a title of first lady which goes to Ella Fitzgerald.

In a political context, I agree wholeheartedly that Creoles are included in the category of Black/African Americans as they suffered the same indignities and were afforded the same status by their oppressors.

However, we are not talking politics here, we are talking cultural influence and geneological background, and in that respect Creoles were a mixture of cultural ingredients.

Sydney Bechet and Jelly Roll Morton were Creole. Louis Armstrong was African American.

They are very much seen as the founding fathers of Jazz.

The blue note is indeed African of origin, but the Chord theory is European. There are other ingredients too that distinguish Jazz from having an African root in the same way that Blues definitely does.

Jazz without chord theory is like a house without bricks.

The subsequent evolution of Jazz includes, not additional, but essential input from white musicians. There are some Jazz commentators who suggest that white musicians were merely participating in a black artform. This is an utter untruth.

From Biderbeck to Brubeck white Jazzers have played alongside their Black brothers in perfect harmony and advanced the depth of Jazz in an essential way.

Comments regarding race within Jazz are generally made by those outside it.

Miles Davis chose Bill Evans because he was doing something new and "Down" - he didn't care whether he was white Black or blue - though he clearly decided that at the very least he was "kind of blue".

Some of the Black audiences they played for didn't take kindly to this freeloader riding into town on "their" music, but the reality is that Jazz, unlike other artforms, was owned by its performers not by its patrons.

Jazz musicians didn't care about all that, and those from the 30's and 40's who I have met could teach some of our "enlightened" youngsters a thing or two about respect for men and women of other cultures and regardless of their origin or appearance on a deep level of understanding and with a passion of genuine feeling that would be enough to make you feel truly enriched.

They were friends with the artists who were told to leave through the kitchen door and were hurt by the indignities they witnessed and would have undoubtedly been in the ranks that marched aginst the system.

Whiteman did indeed give himself that title and that fact is as important to jazz as he was ... not very... except insofar as he was a good salesman.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:09 PM

Azizi, you commented;


"Btw, lox, I strongly disagree with your statement that "Jazz does not trace back to an african american ancestor.""

By this I meant that unlike blues, Jazz has a Europen father and an African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European mother.


You also commented;

"However, I dare say that this same disregard for race was not the norm among most of the jazz musicians' audiences, the nightclub owners, the radio hosts, the movie producers etc."

If you return to the post you were responding to you will note this line.

"The Audiences and the Club owners were of course a different kettle of fish ... "

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:14 PM

lox, if Anglo-Americans didn't so often have the practice of not crediting African Africans for our cultural offerings, and if Anglo-Americans didn't so often appropriate* African American culture and claim if as their own, I wouldn't be so insistent about asserting race into a discussion about the origin of jazz and who is or is not considered to be the "King of Jazz".

However, given the realities of life then and now, I'm making those points, admittedly, as a person who isn't a jazz musician, jazz vocalist, jazz historian, or a particular follower of contemporary jazz or any other kind of jazz.

*
"Cultural Appropriation"

"Cultural Appropriation - refers to the process by which members of relatively privileged groups "raid" the culture of less powerful or marginalized groups, and removing [sic] cultural practices or artifacts from historically or culturally specific contexts."

— From the Glossary of the Municipal Cultural Planning Project (Canada)

http://www.culturalplanning.ca/mcpp/ib_glossary.html#c

Q. "What is cultural appropriation?

A. The textbook definition of cultural appropriation is the 'taking [a.k.a. appropriating] from a culture that is not one's own of...cultural expressions or artifacts [or] history.' Many people hold that cultural appropriation is wrong because by stealing an element from someone's culture and then representing it in a different (and often shallow) context, you both damage and dishonor the culture you have taken the ritual from."

— Body Modification Ezine FAQs http://www.bmezine.com/ritual/susp-faq.html#Q3-5
   
http://www.quakersweat.org/appropriation.html

-snip-

Also, lox, you didn't answer the question that I posed to you in my 02:14 PM post to this thread. I'll repeat that question in case you accidentally overlooked it:

"Btw, lox, I strongly disagree with your statement that "Jazz does not trace back to an african american ancestor."

I would have agreed with you if you had written that Jazz is a blending of African and European musical traditions that was first performed by African American musicians.

Is this what you meant?

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:28 PM

lox, we cross posted and I've read your answer to my question. Your response doesn't address the issue of which race performed jazz first.

And if you wanted to get technical, many African Americans have had "a Europen father and an African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European mother" but I understand that you meant that jazz is built on the African and European musical traditions.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:33 PM

I can't understand what the problem is. All jazz musicians/historians must surely agree that black Americans first started playing what we know as jazz. The music itself was formed from earlier forms like, among other things, ragtime and blues. Ironically, I believe the first known recording of jazz - 1917 - was by the white Original Dixieland Jazz Band, whose leader, Nick La Rocca, was of Italian origin.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Azizi
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:37 PM

Correction:

My sentence should read .,,"built on African and European musical traditions".

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:37 PM

Azizi,

It looks like you accidentally overlooked my last post, in which I wrote:


>>"Btw, lox, I strongly disagree with your statement that "Jazz does >>not trace back to an african american ancestor.""
>>
>>By this I meant that unlike blues, Jazz has a Europen father and an >>African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European >>mother.


So while blues traces directly back to an African american vocal tradition and while it uses scales with ambiguous notes that come from African musical tradition, the same cannot be said of Jazz.


Jazz has from day one been a multicultural exercise. This is probably why it went on to absorb other cultural influences into its vocabulary later on in the fusion projects of the seventies and eighties, from Indian classical to Flamenco, because it is inclusive by nature, having been born that way and as it has grown up it has naturally wanted to include music that it hasn't met before.

Truly the music of the revolution in my book.

Subject: RE: Paul Whiteman-King of Jazz?
From: Lox
Date: 25 May 09 - 04:58 PM

"And if you wanted to get technical, many African Americans have had "a Europen father and an African mother - or if you prefer, an African father and a European mother" but I understand that you meant that jazz is built on the African and European musical traditions."

Read again Azizi.

You know I know this, as you have read comments from me explaining the logic to other people. But these are political matters.

In the quote above, you are referring to the political and social relities of being an African American, ie someone who has any degree of African blood in their veins thus rendering them inferior in the eyes of the state at that time and in the eyes of much of society to this day.

I am talking about the Geneology of a musical style.

You may justifiably argue that if all americans with any degree of african heritage should be classified in the same category then the it is double standards to take a different approach to music with a similar ancestry.

However, what is really happening there is recognition of how cruelly unfair it is that Blacks - whatever their ancestry - should suffer discrimination at all.

It does not infer ownership, either moral or actual. It puts in the spotlight just how insane the realities of slavery, segregation and racism were/are.

And if we did decide to give ownership of Jazz to Americaans only if they had a degree of African blood in their veins we would be doing a disservice to all those white musicians who helped make it what it is - and some from other countries too, like Stephan Grapelli and Django Reinhardt.