BS: D Day + 65years

Subject: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 May 09 - 03:21 PM

The event will be marked in Nomandy, and president Obama will be present.
Many veterans from Britain and Commonwealth will be there, many for the last time.
We here sometimes think that our veterans' efforts and the sacrifice of our fallen is being airbrushed from history.
We are used to Hollywood ignoring our part and even portraying our achievements being carried out by Americans.
Our head of state, the Queen, has not been invited.
Sarcosy has stated that it is to be a Franco American occasion.

I am sure most members here know that only two of the 5 beaches were American beaches, and that Americans were outnumbered, by several thousand, by British, Candian and other Commonwealth troops.
I hope this is not forgotten by the next generation.

I do not wish to understate our gratitude to USA for their sacrifice. I was moved to make this post by contributions to the Memorial Day thread.
Many veterans here feel hurt by this slight.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: mg
Date: 31 May 09 - 03:35 PM

Well, I am sorry that they are not getting the recognition they deserve..I am sure most Americans are not aware of this. Maybe you could write an article for some publication on this.

And never worry too much about the younger generation forgetting too much and getting off easy somehow...we don't know what they will be called upon to do but it could eclipse what other generations have had to do..we just never know...mg

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: wysiwyg
Date: 31 May 09 - 03:38 PM

I hope this is not forgotten by the next generation.

I have a similar hope over what I have learned, late in life, about the racism the USA's history so painfully includes. It's not any older than the D-Day memories the media tried to keep focus on, with "The Greatest Generation" material of recent years.

It's always interesting to me (really, I just mean interesting) how we can feel so strongly that "X is in the past, let's move ON!" while "X just happened, we must remember!!!"-- over things that took place at the same time on the timeline. It's just weirdly human.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:22 PM

When we visited Phoenix Arizona in 1998, it was pointed out to us that all the Latin American folks were stufapprobriumfed at one end of the town - or is it a city? I call that segregation.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:23 PM

Damned keyboard!

When we visited Phoenix Arizona in 1998, it was pointed out to us that all the Latin American folks were stuffed at one end of the town - or is it a city? I call that segregation.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 09 - 04:37 PM

I have been rather nasty in this forum in a few threads to some people about this subject... even telling them to "read a fucking history book." It makes my blood boil. As far as Herself not being invited, I cannot be nasty enough. Assholes!

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 May 09 - 05:49 PM

Bonzo3, it may be segregation in fact but it is not necessarily a mandated thing. What about the various Chinatowns across the ocuntry? What about the Polish sections of a city? People, being people, tend to gravitate toward what is familiar.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: pdq
Date: 31 May 09 - 06:05 PM

"There is deep significance with the Queen not being invited…she is the one world leader who has a personal stake in D-Day.  While serving with the British forces as a driver,  she met the Supreme Allied Commander for the D-Day landings, General Eisenhower, and developed a fondness for him which lasted for decades.  Her affection for Eisenhower, and his contribution to the defeat of Nazi Germany is well known.  Seems that her not being invited by a serving President of the United States sends a message that the United Kingdom just doesn't matter in the big picture anymore.

How in the world can any world leader commemorate D-Day without the presence of the Brits?"


Remember, Obama is the same guy who did a full waiste-up bow to the Saudi Arabian ambassador. As a dipolmat, he is an embarrassment.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 May 09 - 06:07 PM

I think many Americans, and indeed others, do not realise that most of the troops taking part in the D-Day landings were not Americans. I suppose that's show business...:

On D-Day, the Allies landed around 156,000 troops in Normandy. The American forces landed numbered 73,000: 23,250 on Utah Beach, 34,250 on Omaha Beach, and 15,500 airborne troops. In the British and Canadian sector, 83,115 troops were landed (61,715 of them British): 24,970 on Gold Beach, 21,400 on Juno Beach, 28,845 on Sword Beach, and 7900 airborne troops. (From The D-Day Museum)

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: jacqui.c
Date: 31 May 09 - 07:16 PM

Much though this may surprise some, the President of the USA is not the person who chooses who will be invited to an event of this type. That duty falls to the leaders of the country in which the event is to be held and, so far, France has not become the 51st state.

This sounds as if it was a total lash up on the part of the French and UK governments. Now Sarcosy is saying that it was up to the UK government to choose who was to attend from the UK. Brown is back-pedalling furiously and saying that any member of the Royal Family is welcome to accompany him to France, rather late in the day. This seems to be just another incidence of the disdain with which the UK government hold the Monarchy and, on this occasion, I think it is insulting as the Queen was actually in the Armed Forces during the war, when both the president of France and Brown weren't even a twinkle in their fathers' eyes.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: gnu
Date: 31 May 09 - 07:29 PM

Herself is the (token) head of the the Allied Forces of 26 commonwealth nations and also allied in NATO and beyond. It is at the very least, a disgraceful affront to millions of loyal military personnel around the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Charley Noble
Date: 31 May 09 - 08:25 PM

Sounds like a bloodbath in the making.

I think I'll just pause and reflect on what I was doing when I was two years old.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:40 AM

President Obama is trying to get an invite for Q.E.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8078294.stm
Sadly, probably too late to make arrangements now.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 08:44 AM

Prince Charles will represent the Queen.

Subject: BS: D-Day 65 Years Ago Today
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:19 AM

A tribute to the D-Day Dodgers of Canada: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXl_xzqIRgk

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:28 AM

Today is the anniversary of D-Day.

Five years ago, just a month before anniversay 60, Mrs. JotSC and I took a most awesome bus tour from Paris to Normandy. The tour guide, who had written books on D-Day related the saga of events leading to the landings and the battle itself. He wore a night mask while relating the story in detail, as if he were seeing that historic past as he spoke.

We made stops at the Peace Museum in Caan (I believe), and at the American Cemetery for the D-Day fallen. We placed a flower at the grave of one of those heroes.

But standing at the edge of the Omaha Beach cliffs, it astounded me that anyone could actually have scaled cliff and survive to fight, so heavily was the area fortified. German bunkers are still there, as, in the water, are the hulls of landing craft that did make it to the beach.

So, to all the brave allied fighters who took part in the Normandy invasions, thank you for your sacrifice.

Subject: RE: BS: D-Day 65 Years Ago Today
From: bobad
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:37 AM

Oops, didn't check for prior thread.......my boo boo.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:54 AM

My Father-in-Law landed 21 days after. He said that when he looked at what had had to be done only then did the realization hit him of the magnitude and heroism of that day -- on Utah, Omaha, Gold, Sword, and Juno and from the sky above the night before.

Subject: RE: BS: D-Day 65 Years Ago Today
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:58 AM

What's with the English accent?

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:57 AM

My father landed on the 5th day. He encountered heavy fighting almost immediately.

It sounds to me like Obama had nothing to do with the failure to invite the Queen, so why blame him for it?

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:06 PM

LH,

For the same reason Bush was blamed for anything that happened when he was president. Once precedent is established, the side originating it has little room to complain when it is used against them.


But of course it was ok when it was against someone you did not like.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 12:21 PM

Poem 212 of 230: REMEMBER THEM?

Back when we became defenders
    (We have plainly been attackers),
Defenders' blood, sweat and years
    Were paid to keep a good home-way -
A way yet to be part stealth-blown,
    As mass immigration gained-sway
And as we slipped as maintainers.

From http://walkaboutsverse.sitegoz.com (e-scroll)
Or http://blogs.myspace.com/walkaboutsverse (e-book)

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:29 PM

My uncle was crewof one of the first landing craft over. My father landed six days later.
We were travelling home from holiday through Normandy on Thursday and saw long convoys of troups and parachutes dropping in ready for todays events.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:36 PM

It's not okay either way, BB. ;-) You know I defended Reagan over that Bittburg visit, and I will defend anyone on the Right or the Left who is unfairly attacked in a partisan manner.

Sadly, that is not so true of many of my (so-called) "liberal" compadres here. Their righteous moral scruples end abruptly at the party line.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Ref
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:14 PM

Hey pdq, where were you when Bush was kissing the Saudis on the lips?

What the dickens does segregation in Phoenix AR have to do with this thread?

Obviously Sarkozy should have invited Her Maj, but it's not President Obama's fault. The REAL screw-up is not inviting representatives of the people of the old Soviet Union, who carried so much more of the weight than any of the Western Alliance. We owe so much, to steal a phrase, to the valor of so many, among the leaders and the boys (that's what they were!) who carried out the plans.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:58 PM

Stalin was (understandably) pressing hard for an Allied invasion of western Europe much earlier than June '44 in order to take pressure off his own forces in the East. He was hoping the Allies would launch their invasion in 1943. As things stood, however, I think they were wise to wait until June 1944. An invasion in '43 would probably not have succeeded, but would have met a bloody defeat, and that would have prolonged the war.

The Russians are probably not all that interested in the D-Day observances since their forces did not take any part in that invasion...but it would still make sense to invite them to attend.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:12 PM

Blaming the President for whatever bad happens may not have begun with Lincoln, but I know it goes back at least that far.

The only difference in recent years is that 24-hour news and talk radio results in more pounds of blame per capita.

Who was "braver" or "did more" on D-Day is a pointless argument. The Brits and Canadians landed more troops, but most of the casualties were Yanks. None of the three countries could have succeeded alone.

I'll grant that most Americans have no inkling that either Britain or Canada had anything to do with D-Day, not to mention the small number of Free French commandos who also landed. (Unless they've seen The Longest Day, made nearly 50 years ago.) But that was in black & white, which KIDS TODAY (a phrase I once never thought I'd use) won't stand for. High-school history courses don't ignore other Allied forces on D-Day, but they're mentioned only in passing, partly because WWII rarely takes up more than an hour or two of class time. So if you were day-dreaming about that hottie, you missed it.

BTW, the movie is sometimes embarrassingly hokey, but it does suggest the size and scope of the event.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:45 PM

Good post. Yeah, "The Longest Day" is a bit hokey in places, but it's still a fine film overall. That invasion was a real meat-grinder for those who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. That would be most of all the Americans who hit Omaha Beach and the German soldiers all along the entire perimeter...plus anyone else whose luck didn't turn out to be so good. Great courage was shown by all the participants, if you ask me.

I'd hate to have been in one of those German foxholes or bunkers. I'd hated to have been on the beaches trying to take them. War is a miserable business.

My dad was there, and what he said about the war was mainly this: that he never in his life saw a more tragic waste of men and materials. This in spite of the fact that he despised Hitler's Nazis and wanted very much to help defeat them. He killed some German soldiers, he accepted the surrender of others, he saw many friends killed right in front of him. After the war he had many good friends who were Germans and who had served in the opposing forces. That's war for you. It makes enemies of people who might better have been friends.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM

Strange that I can't come up with a single song about D Day,

And "D Day Dodgers" is a fine song but with an entirely different perspective.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:20 PM

Sarkozy is a shit. He'd have been in Vichy if that was where the chances were. And while we've got other "English" filth, in other threads, supporting parties that target Blacks and eastern Europeans, let's remember that soldiers participating in the Normandy landings included troops from Poland, Greece, and Czechoslovakia, as well as many Black Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:55 PM

Didn't see any early news on the BBC because we were on holiday in France. Saw parachutes and jeeps on our way home on Thursday.
Got home and slept Friday.
News on Saturday suggests that the celebrations were intended to be low key, mainly for people who had been there, but about a week ago it became a big thing, too late for the Queen to re-arrange previous arrangements, so Charles stood up to help out.
Lots of respect to the people who fought - let'snot use it s an excuse for starting fights.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Janie
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 08:50 PM

What Geoff said.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 08:53 PM

Way to go, Geoff. Quack!

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Lox
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:13 PM

"BTW, the movie is sometimes embarrassingly hokey, but it does suggest the size and scope of the event."

The movie is a pretty acurate rendition of the book.

And hokey or not, the thing to remember about both is that every single detail is 100% accurate and verified and cross referenced by a huge amount of witness testimony.

The guy on the church spire in st maire eglise, the german rifle bolt sounding like a hand held 'cricket bug', the columns of patrolling german and american soldiers walking right past each other whilst looking up at the turmoil in the sky ...

So if its hokey its because the reality was hokey. There is nothing exaggerrated or 'artistic' about it.

The scottish piper on the beach - the general who walked up and down the beach seemingly immune to the bullets shouting orders and pulling people up by the scruff of their neck ...


The book obviously contains a lot more detail and is gripping and eyepoppingly fascinating - I recommend it, not least as it is amazing how cornelius ryan collated all that information and was able to order it in such a coherent readable way.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Ref
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:34 PM

It remains a great film. My favorite trivia bit is that Richard Todd, who portrays major John Howard of the British glider troops, was on D-Day a lieutenant who commanded a platoon of paratroopers that fought in support of Howard and his lads at Pegasus Bridge.

I also love the scenes with Piper Bill Millen (portrayed by a man who was pipe major to the Queen Mum) leading the commandos relieving Howard's command. Many of the commando units, ostensibly British, were filled with European Jewish refugees who'd been recruited for their language skills and knowledge of the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: mg
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 11:50 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVpM8OPixds&feature=related

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,seth in Olympia
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:13 AM

A lot of the American soldiers were barely in their twenties, if that. I'm forever grateful that I didn't have to do that, and that those kids jumped out of their boats and into machine gun fire for all of us, some of of us not born yet.
seth

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:49 AM

Normandy Orchards is about D Day and aftermath.
Obama wanted the Queen to attend.
No one here argued that any national group was nobler than any other in these events, I just observed that some Americans are unaware that they were not alone.
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:56 AM

Normandy Orchards, Keith Marsden
@displaysong.cfm?SongID=8566

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Neil D
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:35 AM

I'm one American who has known since childhood that Americans were not alone in the Normandy Invasion when I watched The Longest Day with my Dad (D-Day+4 for him). I also know that European peoples paid a higher price for Hitler's insanity than we did. From the fall of Poland and France, through the Battle For Britain, the siege of Leningrad and the bloodbath at Stalingrad, and not least the Holocaust, many of whose victims were German citizens. As I said in my eulogy for my father: "When Dad was a very young man he won a great war and made the world safe for Democracy. Well sure, some others pitched in to help because thats just how folks were back then." So let us honor EVERYONE who took part in that great undertaking and if you know one who's still here don't waste another second, thank them in person.
                                          Neil Devore

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:17 AM

On the one hand, the Germans had almost no hope of stopping that invasion. It's been compared to an egg being hit by a sledgehammer in some of the military histories I've read. Their troops were stretched very thin along very long stretches of coastline, they were inadequately foritified, and the Allies had total air and sea supremacy and were able to put thousands of aircraft over the beachhead to support the landings.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean it was easy for the men who landed! It was specially hard at Omaha Beach where the Americans took heavy casualties due to a number of things going wrong.

My father landed on the 5th day with the British forces near Caen and advanced a few miles in from the beach head where his unit came under heavy fire from a German infantry battalion that was entrenched in a line of trees. It was the first time he'd ever been under fire, but the Germans were probably considerably more experienced, and he said they laid down a vicious barrage of machine gun and mortar fire. He spent the next few hours trying to dig a deeper hole in the earth and not get killed and he said he made up his mind right there and then to do two things:

1. survive the war
2. never look back after that, but make something of himself

He had suddenly realized just how fragile and valuable life is.

I can see, looking back, that it was the war which made him a very strong and determined man for the rest of his life. He grew up fast on that first day at Normandy.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:47 AM

Another song.ST AUBIN SUR MER (Keith Marsden)
See current thread.
I can not agree that success was inevitable.
It was a very near thing saved partly by a successful deception plan and mainly by Hitler obstructing the movement of reserves.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:07 AM

I wouldn't say success was inevitable, Keith, but I would say that the German defenses were woefully inadequate. This was also Rommel's view, and he was the man in command of those defenses. Yes, Hitler made a big contribution to the Allied victory by obstructing the movement of the armoured reserves. He was absolutely sure that Normandy was a feint and that the main Allied invasion was to come at Calais. He had a "gift" for maintaining stubborn and moronic denial in the face of all evidence to the contrary! God knows, if the enormous operation at Normandy had been a mere feint, well, the main invasion would have been unstoppable in any case.....

With Hitler in command, it's amazing the German Army did as well as they did and managed to hold out till the spring of '45.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:40 PM

Lox, the first half hour of Saving Private Ryan is truer to the reality of the Omaha landing than all the Omaha segments of The Longest Day.

SPR is occasionally hokey too but not nearly so much as TLD. As artistic creations they're also artistic statements - they have no choice, it's the price you pay for creating art.

TLD says D-Day was important, complicated, dangerous - and exciting! But not, you know, really stomach-turning. And have you noticed how many of the Germans are basically comic villains? ("Gummipuppen?" "Gummipuppen!")

And some of the dialogue...

"[Innocently:] Where's Johnny? [Pregnant pause] You mean he's *bought* it ??!!"

"Ack-ack. Over Calais. He jumped clear, but his parachute didn't open."

"That leaves just *you* in the squadron, Dave!! I mean, of the old 1940 lot….Poor old Johnny. Bad luck it happening just now."

Also, though TLD is advertised as "true," some of the stuff is fiction. In Ryan's version, Pvt. "Dutch" Schultz clicks his cricket, then hears a machine gun open up. It misses. (The German and American squads passing each other in the dark does seem to be true, though the book doesn't say they were at arm's length.)

SPR, OTOH, says that D-Day was a bloody nightmare. Anyone who's interested in either should see both, TLD first.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Lox
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:06 PM

I've read TLD cover to cover on more than one occasion and seen the film more than once also.

The film does not deviate from the book, it just does not include much of the detail about the preparations, as you would expect from the film of any book.

Every claim and every quote in both is taken straight out of the testimony of witnesses, of which there is a huge amount.

The lines that you don't like are not a scriptwriters attempts at humour, they were things that witnesses said they heard said and which other witnesses coroborrated.

You and I are free to see them as humour if we wish, or (as I see them) utterly tragic and indicative of the madness of war.

TLD doesn't tell you how to feel, it just tells you what happened and how some of those involved reacted.

I can't comment on SPR as I haven't seen it.


The lines in The Longest Day are all exactly as recorded in the information gathred by cornelius ryan.

Anyone can check.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:24 PM

Lox, I had the book in front of me as I wrote. I checked.

I don't see the quoted dialogue as humor, unintentional or otherwise. I see it as a screenwriter's failed attempt (there were several screenwriters) to fill in Dave's background, point out the high RAF casualty rate, and to emphasize dangers of combat flyingthat civilian audiences might not have thought of: in this case, a parachute failed. At the same time, the writer is trying to make it all sound like natural conversation. The woodenness of the acting made it worse. IMO.

Now that I'm old I can play the age card. When I saw TLD on the big screen in 1962, I too thought it was magnificent. I hummed the theme song for days.

As the years passed, though, and passed, my appreciation dwindled. The last time I tried to watch the whole thing (about ten years ago), it was too painful. It seemed more like a feel-good movie, with tragedy and laughs thrown in, than like a realistic portrayal.

Stephen Ambrose wrote that he loved the movie because it made him feel proud. One result, decades later, was that he later wrote Band of Brothers. If you haven't seen the HBO miniseries of that, you really should. It's brilliant all the way through, especially, I think, in the final episode. Unlike TLD, it's better than the book.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:54 PM

I cannot watch any of them. I cannot watch the services. I cannot watch November 11 ceremonies. The stories my father, mother, aunts and uncles told me flood back, as does my uncontrollable weeping. I just had to wipe my eyes to see the screen typing this.

Lest we forget.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:53 PM

I visited Omaha Beach about this time last year, and it was a moving experience. The land is high above the sea there, and the view is spectacular. Anyone landing on the beach would have been an easy target. I walked amidst the crosses and stars of David and remembered those who died.

I'm a pacifist, but even pacifists are moved by what happened on D-Day. I honor the heroism of the Allied troops on D-Day and during the year thereafter, which resulted in the liberation of Europe. I remain a pacifist; but in this case, I do not know of a better way than what was done by our troops.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:01 AM

My next-door-neighbour,Harry,is a 94 year old D-Day veteran,so I have heard all about it from him !! It doesn't sound like it was fun at all. War is terrible ; my father was in the RAF,and his squadron (214) flew Boeing B17s from RAF Oulton, Norfolk.At least two of them were brought down by "friendly fire", "Blue-on-Blue", whatever you want to call it,at around that time (1944-45)---One was shot down by a Lancaster bomber,whose crew did not recognise what it was ( no British bomber had a single ,large tailplane like a B17). Another one was badly damaged by fighters over Germany---it managed to reach safety over Allied-held France,but was then shot down by an AMERICAN anti-aircraft crew !!! A B17 !! But that's war for you.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Derby
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 11:58 AM

The D in D-Day stands for Derby as far as the Queen is concerned. Do you think she wasn't delighted not to be asked but sent her son so as not to interfere with her racing?

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: bubblyrat
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 12:07 PM

I cannot possibly comment at present, you Twat----But when I see her ,at Buck House ,on the 9th of July, you can be sure that I will make the necessary enquiries of her,assuming ,that is,that She knows where Derby is (you Twat ) .

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:03 PM

A lot of aircraft were shot down by "friendly" fire. One of the USA's greatest fighter pilots, George Preddy, was shot down and killed by American flak on Christmas Day, 1944, during the Battle of the Bulge.

"On Christmas Day Preddy and nine of his pilots took off for a hopeful sweep over confused woodland fighting. After patrolling for three fruitless hours, they received radar vectoring to intercept bandits just southwest of Koblenz. Diving on the targets, Preddy quickly flamed two Me-109s, forcing their pilots to hit the silk. The dogfight carried the combatants close to Li?ge, where Preddy latched onto the tail of an Fw-190. At less than 100 feet he was pouring bullets into his victim when an American anti-aircraft emplacement opened fire on both planes with .50-caliber machine guns. Realizing he was shooting at a friendly plane, the gunner stopped after firing only about 60 rounds, but it was too late. One of the big bullets had hit Preddy, and although he managed to release his canopy, he was unable to bail out. Mortally wounded, he crash-landed near the flak pit.

Major George Preddy never knew defeat in combat, but at age 25 he fell victim to human error. His status as the top-scoring Mustang ace of the war — with a total of 27 1/2 confirmed aerial kills — crystallized his standing as one of America's greatest war heroes."

The Germans had problems of their own in this respect. On New Year's Day of 1945 they launched a big fighter attack on Allied airfields in western Europe. There had been very few German fighters in the air in the weeks preceding as they had been hoarding them for a last gasp offensive to be launched on New Year's Day. They hoped to achieve surprise and destroy many Allied planes on the ground. Unfortunately for the German pilots security had been so tight on keeping the operation a secret that no one bothered to inform the German flak crews along the front about it! This resulted in 84 German fighters being shot down by German flak.

As for the attack, it was moderately successful, but could be considered a Pyrrich victory, one the Germans simply could not afford.

"A total of 495 Allied aircraft were damaged or destroyed. Most of the targeted airfields remained out of action for up to two weeks following the attack. Due to Allied fighter counter-attacks, and surprisingly numerous Allied anti-aircraft guns—intended to prevent V-1 attacks—the Luftwaffe lost 280 aircraft, 271 of which were fighters or fighter-bombers, with a further 69 aircraft damaged. Allied fighters claimed 62 destroyed, Allied anti-aircraft guns claimed 88, and 84 were lost to friendly fire. (Due to the secrecy required for the mission, German flak commanders had not been briefed on the mission and the crews opened fire on their own planes, both on the way to and from the targets.)

While "a bold stroke" that achieved tactical surprise, it was undone by poor execution and low pilot skill.[5][verification needed] The Luftwaffe lost 143 pilots killed and missing, while 70 were captured and 21 pilots wounded.[8] - the largest single-day loss for the Luftwaffe.[3] Many of the formation leaders lost were experienced veterans, which placed even more pressure on those who were left. Additionally, while it was supposed to "revive" the offensive, it could have preceded the Ardennes attack, without the need to rely on weather.[3] Thus, Bodenplatte was a very short-term success but a long-term failure, for while Allied losses were soon made up (within weeks), lost Luftwaffe aircraft and pilots were irreplaceable, leaving the Luftwaffe "weaker than ever and incapable of mounting any major attack again".[9]

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 03:37 AM

assuming ,that is,that She knows where Derby
I'd be surprised if she didn't; she's gone pretty well every year since she was a teenager, even when it was moved from the first Wednesday in June to the following Saturday. She had a winner there in 1952 with Monaveen, although I don't think any of her own horses have won since (the Queen Mother had plenty of winners in her time).

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 04:10 AM

The Queen accepted her invitations to the anniversaries in Normandy in 2004 and 1994.
It is an open secret that she was angry not to be invited by the host country this year.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: bubblyrat
Date: 09 Jun 09 - 05:24 AM

Yes,well even if she hadn't wanted,or been able ( both highly unlikely)to attend,at the very least the Frogs could have had the decency to INVITE her. The next time the French need a favour,like being liberated from invaders,for example,Her Majesty should tell them,in no uncertain terms,to Fuck Orf.(IMHO).

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:37 AM

70 years tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Musket
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 06:30 AM

The deadline for those revisions must be looming then.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Will Fly
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 09:33 AM

By coincidence I shall be crossing (under) the channel tomorrow morning, en route to first Tours and then Arcachon for just over a week.

It'll be interesting to see what the mood is and what's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 03:58 PM

I remember clearly when my draft number came up and I went for the physical, etc.
After the usual bare bones (stethoscope, finger, etc.), the next table had the psychiatrist(?), a big frog-like man with horn-rimmed glasses.

He asked, "Do you like girls?" I wish I had answered "No," but I nodded. I don't think it would have made a difference.

At the next table, they stamped "Army Only" in big letters on the form. I became army property.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 04:00 PM

My dad & his younger brother, they grew up in NYC, served in Europe during WWII. My mom's two brothers, from south Jersey, also served, one in Europe the other in the Pacific. They all came home.

Tomorrow the flags will fly at half mast:

Governor Andrew M. Cuomo today directed that flags on state government buildings be flown at half-staff on Friday, June 6, in honor and remembrance of the 70th Anniversary of D-Day.

Governor Cuomo said, "As we approach the 70th anniversary of D-Day, we pause to remember the brave men and women who served in our Nation's armed forces both on this fateful day and throughout World War II. Those who risked their lives on battlefields and military installations around the globe performed heroically in the service of our nation, and they are true portraits of American courage. Of the 900,000 New Yorkers who fought during the war, nearly 37,000 of them did not return, and we remember their sacrifice with honor. On behalf of all New Yorkers, I express my utmost gratitude to these Veterans as we pause to reflect on the significance of their accomplishments."

A central force involved in D-Day was Brigadier General Theodore Roosevelt Jr., the son of President Theodore Roosevelt, the oldest man in the invasion force at 56 and the only general officer to land on D-Day. He was the Assistant Division Commander of the 4th Infantry Division at Utah Beach, and he received the Medal of Honor.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 14 - 05:29 PM

well at least the queen didn't have to eat any of that crap French cheese

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:35 AM

I salute every one of those who landed on Utah, Omaha, Gold, Sword, and Juno.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:13 AM

And the dropping and landing zones.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 11:49 AM

Obama couldn't resist having a go at the Russians!
Today, was not the time for such language.
Thankfully, the French President thanked the Russians for their amazing bravery and sacrifices on the horrendous Eastern Front.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 01:49 PM

In 1986 my Mom and I went from England to France over the Channel on my uncle's (her brother's) birthday, which is today. We were asked by a British porter where we were headed, and we said Normandy, and he said What, again? Which we didn't even get till we got to France and all was Place 6 juin and Rue 6 juin and we thought Oh, not just Uncle Steve's birthday, right. And we felt bad for the poor porter who had made a great funny and we completely didn't get it!
And Mom was one of those liberated from the concentration camps by the end of that war, too, you'd think she would have thought of it even if I didn't.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 02:52 PM

So how far have we come in those 70 years ? Seems the British are still dependent on America. The recent European election results seem to be a good indication of changing attitudes, Britain and France are good examples. Russia seems to be doing it's own thing.

Europe now has a central government which is controlled by Germany. On the global economic front, Japan leads the way.

Shows you don't always need guns to achieve your ambitions !

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:12 PM

"Thankfully, the French President thanked the Russians for their amazing bravery and sacrifices on the horrendous Eastern Front."

WTF?!? The ONLY reason why the Russians fought the Germans is because their so-called Ally turned on them... up to then they were perfectly happy to be part of the Axis Powers. The Russian people suffered greatly... but they also suffered at the hands of their paranoid dictator, Stalin. Who used every trick he could get away with to subjegate Poland, and every other small country that they "liberated". Or has the Berlin Wall been forgotten?

And now we have Putin trying to "reclaim" what they regard as theirs. It's bad enough living in a dysfuntional democracy... but communism???? ... are you kidding me?

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:29 PM

Well, Britain also had an agreement with Nazi Germany. Remember!
And, we weren't even under attack - unlike the Russians - when we declared war!
And, the the USA stood by for a couple of years, while Germany, Italy and Japan caused havoc, before they joined in!

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:43 PM

Britain stood with Poland against Hitler.
Stalin invaded Poland with Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 03:58 PM

Well, of course Russia had historical "issues" with Poland.
Remember the old saying: "What goes around, comes around"

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 04:17 PM

Chamberlain negotiated a compromise with Hitler that was doomed to failure... they were hardly part of the Axis.

As for the US, Roosevelt had to deal with the tail end of the Great Depression and an isolationist population that had been stung once by WWI. He still pulled off the Lend Lease Program in March of 1941 and Churchill was holding his breath waiting for Germany to over extend itself again, since Operation Barbarossa was June 1941. Which it did when Hitler declared war on the US.

We considered that Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor qualified as an act of war and when FDR asked asked Congress for a declaration of war, he got it... but only against Japan.   

Instead of comic books, try reading ones on history to get yourself informed.

And if you want to trade insults, the Gis response to "Overpaid, Oversexed and Over Here" was "Underpaid, Under Sexed and Under Eisenhower." which solves nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Squeezer
Date: 06 Jun 14 - 10:06 PM

Sciencegeek - 1) Don't understand your "They were hardly part of the Axis". Who are "they"?

2) I have to correct you on one point - up to June 1941 Russia and Germany had a non-aggression pact, which means that Russia was not an ally of Germany nor part of the Axis, despite the Russian invasion of Poland.

3) It's true that the USA at first went to war only against Japan, but Operation Barbarossa was not Hitler's only catastrophic blunder. The other was his declaration of war against America just after Pearl Harbour.

4) I don't think anyone is trying to trade insults. I think Tunesmith is just being crass about the USA not rushing to declare war as soon as Britain did. At the time, the isolationist argument in America was a reasonable stance to take.

5) Without the astonishing courage and resilience of the ordinary Russian soldier the Wehrmacht might well have succeeded in taking both Moscow and Russia's southern oilfields, and the outcome of WW2 would then have been different. The vital contribution Ivan made to the war is consistently down-played by the West.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: LadyJean
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 12:08 AM

Dad fought in North Africa which was a disaster. He wound up in Russia at the end of the war, where he was horrified to see women working on railroads, and fighting!

He could be very old school about the ladies at times.

If somebody invaded my country, I would drop my principals and pick up a gun.

The Russians were defending their home.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: sciencegeek
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 03:33 AM

Squeezer, the "they" was England.. in response to "Well, Britain also had an agreement with Nazi Germany. Remember!"

As for Stalin & Hitler, their non-aggression pact was heinous and made Russia a bedfellow of the Axis. After Barbarossa, Stalin signed a non aggression pact with Japan. And as soon as Germany surrendered, he turned on Japan to go after Manchuria which continued past VJ Day. It was part of the pact he made with the Allies.

Stalin, Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini were all kindred spirits... aggressors out for conquest and domination. It was their collusion that was responsible for WWII. After the war, it was only Stalin left and he didn't take long to start destabilizing the world once more. Leading to the Communist takeover of China then the Korean Conflict and Vietnam. I wasn't just his 5 year plans that were bad ideas.

As for Hitler's declaration of war on the US, I mentioned that in my post... since that act was what brought the US into the European war.

It was Stalin's piss poor "leadership" that lead to the Russian people having to fight for their lives against the Nazi invasion. And if Japan, an Axis power, had instead of staying neutral had also joined against Russia (postponing their attack against the US) things would have been quite different.

The "Russian" people have yet to have a government that gives a rat's ass about them and their welfare. And do not forget that so-called Russia was in fact many smaller nationalities that had been "absorbed" by first the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union. And Putin is now trying to reabsorb them after their brief spate of freedom.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: GUEST,Squeezer
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 11:07 AM

Sciencegeek – I assume the agreement you mean was the Munich Agreement (known to the Czechs as the Munich Betrayal) by which Britain recognised Hitler's annexation of the the Czech Sudentenland. Nowadays we regard that as a cowardly surrender to a blood-thirsty dictator, and Chamberlain as, at best, a foolish dupe who was taken in by Hitler's pledge that he would make no further territorial demands in Europe. It's worth pointing out though that at the time it was seen as a rather distasteful but necessary expedient which (it was believed) had prevented war, and it was greeted with immense relief.

I agree with nearly everything you say, except that I could never regard Stalinist Russia and the Third Reich as being bedfellows, despite their both being run by paranoid murderous thugs who each though of himself as a master of military strategy, and despite the huge quantities of oil, grain, and steel which Russia supplied to Germany as a condition of the pact. From the earliest beginnings of Nazism, the two ideologies had been implacable and deadly enemies. The two leaders hated each other and what each other stood for (even though, to us, what they stood for was in practice almost exactly the same). War between the two was only a matter of time, and both leaders knew that. Their non-aggression pact suited both at the time – a ghastly and short-lived marriage of convenience, and the sudden divorce was a terrific psychological shock to Stalin.

Your 5th para suggests that Japan could have sided for a short time with Nazi Germany against Russia, and postponed her attack on the US until after Russia had been knocked out. In fact, Russia and Japan had been (unofficially) at war since at least 1938, on the Manchurian border. Evidently Japan had not the strength to make a serious impression on the Red Army. No doubt Japanese planners saw that it was much more important to go for the essential supplies of oil and rice etc of SE Asia, which were much easier to get, and of course they hoped and expected to knock the USA out with their sneak attack on Pearl Harbour.

I'm not sure either that there was that much collusion or co-operation between the Axis Powers. Each had their own agenda, and often operated independently, often to the exasperation of Hitler, the Pearl Harbour attack being a case in point.

Neither am I sure that Stalin's attack on Japan was part of a pact made with the Allies, who undoubtedly would have preferred Russia to be a go-between in peace negotiations in the Pacific. As it was, the Japanese envoys to Moscow were kept dangling for some time while Stalin and the Stavka prepared their invasion of Manchuria. Russian expansion eastwards must have been an unwelcome development for the Allies, especially at that stage of the war.

Subject: RE: BS: D Day + 65years
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Jun 14 - 02:53 PM

> Neither am I sure that Stalin's attack on Japan was part of a pact made with the Allies.

At the Yalta conference, Stalin agreed to enter the war against Japan within 90 days of a German surrender.

But presumably he would have entered the war anyway. With Japan growing ever weaker, what did he have to lose?