BS: Missing French plane

Subject: BS: Missing French plane
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 01:20 PM

Awful news. I assume you all know that there is a missing Air France airbus with over 200 people on board. One question is, though, why is the possible search area so vast? I would think that they knew where the plane was to within a few hundred yards when they lost radar contact... so the area would be within a few miles of that area, but apparently I don't have the right idea.
My main hope is that it was an accident (thunderstorms were in the region) and not yet another terrorist attack, as I always fear when planes vanish from the radar.
My thoughts are with the surviving kith and kin. Terrible, terrible news.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: mg
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 01:29 PM

They said huge areas of the ocean are without radar contact. It sounds for now like an electrical misfunction, we hope. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: gnomad
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 02:26 PM

My understanding from the news is that the plane left the area covered by radar some 40 minutes before the (automated) last radio message which indicated there was a problem. Even with a known intended course, 40 minutes flying gives a very big area in which to find whatever may be afloat.

BBC story here

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: open mike
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 05:11 PM

n y times article here

c n n here

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Leadbelly
Date: 01 Jun 09 - 05:16 PM

Think of and pray for the poor people inside of this air plane! It's so terrible!

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: open mike
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 12:00 AM

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-brazil-crash2-2009jun02,0,4381916.story

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 08:04 AM

It seems as if the causes of this crash will remain a mystery, given the evident lack of information on exactly where it crashed. Certainly no comfort to anyone associated with the passengers and crew.

Very sad.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:44 AM

They've found debris, at least. That will help the families.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 11:53 AM

The debris has been found in two areas some 60km apart, which suggests the plane broke up at altitude rather than on impact.

Let's just hope the end was quick and painless.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: bubblyrat
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Apparently,lots of pilots don't like that marque,as it relies so heavily on computers and automated systems----maybe time for a re-think ??

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 04:10 PM

Listening to a pilot with expereince of this area on Newstalk radio channel(Ireland), apparently this area is notorious for turbulence due to weather systems near the Equator, he said inexperienced pilots often get caught out (which he did before he got to know better)!

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Terry McDonald
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 04:18 PM

I go along with the man talking on the Jeremy Vine programme - money will be no object, they will find the plane, they will find its 'black box' and they will find out what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Newport Boy
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 04:31 PM

All modern planes rely on computers and automated systems. The A330 has made 3.5 million flights, carrying 707 million passengers, and this is it's first crash in service. (That excludes an early test flight crash at Toulouse.)

An experienced transatlantic pilot said that modern pilots were trained not to attempt to fight turbulence, which often made things worse - the autopilot usually did a better job.

Why this plane wasn't able to avoid the worst turbulence, we'll probably never know. Incidentally, a local airframe designer says that it's very unlikely that turbulence alone could bring down an aircraft as big as an A330.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Jun 09 - 10:34 PM

At least the debris should give them something to analyze, assuming they can collect some.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: open mike
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:32 PM

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/01/air-france-crash-a330-brazil

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Benjamin
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:30 AM

The plane flew right through a thunderstorm. That is never a good idea. A thunderstorm has more force than any weapon used in WW2 (other than nukes) and could easily bring down an airliner. It's certainly a tragedy in many ways, but I doubt it's the result of little more than a over-confident pilot and/or misjudged weather conditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 05:24 AM

Is the favourite theory still lightning strike?

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Newport Boy
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 07:49 AM

If a thunderstorm could easily bring down an airliner, we'd have many more crashes. I vividly remember (with a shudder) watching a 747 take off from Heathrow and climbing directly into one of the worst thunderclouds I've ever seen - forked lightning, sheet lightning - and black!

Anne was on the plane on her way to Australia, and in those days I had to wait 23 hours to know she'd arrived safely. She'd been totally unaware of the storm.

The storm may have caused the electrical failure, and this could have led to other difficulties, but as a direct cause it's unlikely. I think there've only been a handful of such incidents in the 50 years of large airliners.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Riginslinger
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 08:20 AM

That's the thing. Airliners fly through thunder storms all the time. I'm surprised some terrorist organization hasn't claimed credit for the downing of the plane.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: bubblyrat
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 02:54 PM

Yes,but apparently,some modern airliners are so reliant on computers and automation that,sadly,in the event of a massive electrical overload caused by multiple lightning strikes,there is NO provision for a reversion to manual control-----indeed, there are,unlike in Concorde, no manual controls at all !! If this is really the case,then this was a MASSIVE accident just waiting to happen,and just serves to illustrate the folly of human dependence and reliance on machines and computers.
                Incidentally, I have never understood why the technology surrounding "black box" flight recorders does not include a provision for hydrostatic release and surfacing capability following deep water immersion.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Amos
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 03:22 PM

"...Spiller of coffee, jostler of luggage, filler of barf bags, rattler of nerves. But is it a crasher of planes? Judging by the reactions of many airline passengers, one would assume so. Not until I began writing for this magazine, and fielding questions from the public, did I realize how upsetting, if you'll grant the pun, turbulence is for tens of thousands of travelers. "Turbulence is the issue," says Tom Bunn, a retired captain and founder of the nation's most popular fearful flier program, SOAR. "It is far and away the No. 1 concern among my clients."

Intuitively this makes sense. There's not a more poignant reminder of flying's innate precariousness than a good walloping at 35,000 feet. It's easy to picture the airplane as a helpless dinghy caught unawares in a stormy sea. Everything about it seems dangerous. Except that, in all but the rarest circumstances, it's not. For all intents and purposes, a plane cannot be flipped upside-down, thrown into a tailspin, or otherwise flung from the sky by even the mightiest gust or air pocket. Conditions might be annoying and uncomfortable, but the plane is not going to crash. Turbulence is a nuisance for everybody on the plane, including the crew. But it's also, for lack of a better term, normal. When pilots change altitudes and routings to avoid bumps, this is by and large a comfort issue. The captain isn't worried about the wings falling off, he's trying to keep his customers as content and relaxed as possible.

The frightened passenger imagines the pilots in a sweaty lather: the captain barking orders as the ship lists from one side to another, hands tight on the wheel. Nothing could be further from the truth. The crew is not wrestling with the beast so much as merely riding things out. Most of the time, pilots will sit back and allow the plane to buck and buffet rather than attempt to recover every lost foot or degree of heading. Indeed, many autopilot systems have a special "turbulence" mode. Rather than increase the number of corrective inputs, it does the opposite, desensitizing the system.



So that I'm not accused of sugarcoating, I freely concede that powerful turbulence has, on numerous occasions, resulted in damage or injury. With respect to the latter, it is typically people who fell or were thrown about because they weren't belted in. But airplanes themselves are engineered to take a remarkable amount of punishment, including stress limit criteria for both positive and negative G-loads. The level of turbulence required to seriously damage a plane is something that even the most frequent flier will not experience in a lifetime. Around the globe each day, about 5 million people take to the air aboard 35,000 commercial departures. Yet over the past half-century, the number of airliners downed by turbulence can literally be counted on one hand, and almost always there were extenuating circumstances. ..." (Salon.com)

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:11 PM

I'm not sure I would have used the word "extenuating" in that context.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 04:25 PM

"I'm surprised some terrorist organization hasn't claimed credit for the downing of the plane."

It's conspiracy theory time!!

I wondered when that was going to occur

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:06 AM

and its still missing , what they faound seem s to be from something else , not the plane . ??

this is strange very so , worm hole ? taken by force , or is this the plane goin down , this picture is taken from Canary Island a woman
who was lookin out of her window took those pictures.
same morning and the plane was missing .

http://www.dv.is/frettir/2009/6/3/er-thetta-air-france-velin/

sorry the words are in Icelandic.

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: skarpi
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:06 AM

ups found

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: open mike
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:21 AM

that is amazing picture, Skarpi...it could be the plane.

here is more info on the debris they have found

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31057560/

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: The Barden of England
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:42 AM

That picture looks like a meteor burning up as it hits the atmosphere. I suppose it's possible that the aircraft could have been taken down by something like that, but it's such an incredibly unlikely event. I just don't remember it ever happening.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:55 AM

Sounds to me a little fishy.... i doubt this was done by a lightning storm or by some terrorist group, i dont think humans or natural forces where the case....the plane is missing...the signs of deris they thought was debris turned out not to be.

So it just vanishes? into thin air? no i think other forces were at work here.

You never know.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:15 AM

Reliable reports indicate that the plane crash-landed on an uncharted mid-Atlantic shoal. Oddly enough there was already a film crew in residence and we'll soon be getting weekly reports of the survivors' stories, assuming a major sponsor can be nailed down. Or not!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM

The same incredulity was rampant on the night of the Perfect Storm documented by the book of the same name. WHile lightning alone would probably not drop an AirBus, and turbulence alone would not either, it is conceivable that an electrically fried system in themiddle of extreme turbulence could cause the plane to go out of control, for example by hitting an extreme shear causing it to stall and plummet while the controls were not working. A normal pilot can handle a stall if he has his wits about him, but perhaps not so much if his electrics have just been fried and his inidicators have gone dead. I'm just speculatin'


A

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 12:04 PM

OK, now, the debris isn't from the plane... and the oil slick wasn't jet fuel... so what DO we know?

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Newport Boy
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:18 PM

I'm not sure about that photo. It looks more evening sky than morning. If it was the morning in the Canaries, it must be a view E to SE shortly before sunrise. This would be about the right track for the aircraft, but at least a couple of hours too late for its schedule.

Could be a meteor - fairly substantial.

Phil

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: robomatic
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:03 PM

sorry folks, we dearly need some facts, but seein' stuff and repeatin' stuff gets us nowhere. There will be serious bucks spent attempting to locate and procure the black boxes, but the odds are stacked agin' success.

For the water is wide, the ocean deep.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:24 PM

Agent Scully?

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:43 PM

Back to treading water!

Now France is sending out a nuclear submarine to try to locate the black boxes with its sonar. But the ocean is wide...

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: skarpi
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 01:53 PM

they have found some body and wreck in the see

all the best Skarpi

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:57 PM

Here's a link to one such report: Click here for report

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:55 PM

They have now identified/recovered six bodies from the crash, along with more debris including a briefcase and an oxygen mask. It is my hope, frankly, that they died mid-air.

They pointed out that if the bodies have water in the lungs that will show that they died in the ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:02 PM

This seems to be the most current report: click here for report

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: gnu
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM

What bothers me is the fact that these planes have known problems and are still in the air. I have been on the damn things. I am taken aback.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:34 PM

Here is the site of someone specializing in weather info who has a special sub-site for information on the weather that was experienced by the Airbus before its fatal fall:
weathergraphics

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:56 PM

Evidently the body total recovered now is up to 17.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:55 AM

The question is - how many other types of aircraft are flying around with these faulty pitot probes?

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:45 AM

Nothing's perfect - you still get in your car and drive, don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:54 AM

"Nothing's perfect"!

But not replacing faulty airspeed probes is an "accident" waiting to happen, and in this sad case the "accident" happened. In addition to the human cost in lives, there will also be multi-million dollar settlements.

"Nothing's perfect"!

Guess I'm feeling grumpy this morning.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 10 Jun 09 - 08:18 PM

Looks like things are hotting up with Air France pilots refusing to fly aircraft which haven't had their faulty pitot probes replaced! Who can blame them. But I still wonder if there are any other types of aircraft still flying around with them?

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 06:10 AM

The quantum of damages if any will involve interesting jurisdictional battles. Under English law a "wrongful death" claim is statutorily limited to £10,000. I ahve no idea of the French or Brazilian situations but I expect that international conventions limit carrier liability to a pretty nominal figure. I see no immediate nexus to US law or jurisdiction.

Subject: RE: BS: Missing French plane
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Jun 09 - 09:03 PM

Faulty probes cause of crash, at this time, is an assumption. Don't expect anything to be announced for 2-3 months.