BS: What did he really say? (Ahmadinejad)

Subject: BS: What did he really say?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:32 PM

Waiting to be told what he really said, since the Iranian State television can't be trusted.


Ahmadinejad says Holocaust a 'big deception'

AFP - Thursday, June 4


TEHRAN (AFP) - – Iran's hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who is seeking a second term in office, reiterated on Wednesday his anti-Israel stance by calling the Holocaust a "big deception".

Ahmadinejad also said liberal democracies of the world have degraded "human values," the Iranian state television news website quoted him as saying.

"The identity of the liberal democracy has been exposed to the world by its protection of the most criminal regime in the history of humanity, the Zionist regime, by using the big deception of the Holocaust."

"There is no doubt that the only way to replace the liberal thought is to go back to the teachings of the divine prophets," Ahmadinejad said.

"The thoughts and the system of liberal regimes have lowered the benchmarks for human perfection ... The liberal regimes cannot solve the simplest of the political issues in the world," he said.

Ahmadinejad was speaking to a gathering of 600 international scholars who have arrived in Tehran to mark the 20th anniversary of the death of the founder of the Islamic republic, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, which falls on Thursday.

He hopes to win another four-year term in the June 12 election.

Ahmadinejad's presidency has been marred by anti-Israel tirades.

Soon after he took office in 2005, he said Israel was "doomed to be wiped off the map," a statement that enraged global powers that was followed by another diatribe saying the Holocaust was a "myth."

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:40 PM

The man is as much an ass as our previous leader; similarly shortsighted and assertive and out of touch.



A

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 03:43 PM

I don't think anyone here has ever denied Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial. Although it's not at all clear from that quote what exactly he means by "big deception". His opinion on this subject seems to change from moment to moment. Usually, though, his position is that it didn't happen the way it is being advertised in the West as having happened, but not that it didn't happen at all.

At any rate, let's all hope he doesn't get re-elected.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:00 PM

I will agree with your hope, but fear that he will be both elected and encouraged by the UN inaction to perform actions that will lead to WW III.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: gnu
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:17 PM

Hmmmm... idiots being elected to head hawk governments? I wonder how that could happen.

I shall leave now. I can't handle the stress anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:26 PM

Reformist rival: Ahmadinejad 'downgraded' Iran
         

Ali Akbar Dareini, Associated Press Writer – 20 mins ago

TEHRAN, Iran – The main pro-reform candidate in next week's presidential elections accused Mahmoud Ahmadinejad on Wednesday of undercutting Iran's international standing by questioning the Holocaust.

In a nationally televised debate, Mir Hossen Mousavi said Iran has been "downgraded" in the eyes of world by President Ahmadinejad's firebrand style and statements. Just hours earlier, Ahmadinejad called the Holocaust a "big deception" and claimed Israel uses it to sway international support.

"Our nation's dignity has been harmed. We've been degraded. There has been increasing tension (under Ahmadinejad). ... Is it in our interests?" Mousavi said during the face-to-face debate broadcast live across Iran.

He also said Ahmadinejad's style of government was driving Iran toward "dictatorship."

Mousavi and Ahmadinejad are in an increasingly tight race heading into the June 12 election. The outcome will set the tone of Iran's policies on crucial issues ahead such as its standoff with the West over its nuclear ambitions and the possibility of groundbreaking talks with Washington after a nearly 30-year diplomatic freeze.

In Paris, French President Nicolas Sarkozy told Iran's foreign minister, Manoucher Mottaki, that Iran faces greater isolation if it refuses to negotiate over its nuclear program. Sarkozy also denounced Ahmadinejad's questioning of the Holocaust as "shocking."

Ahmadinejad's bid for re-election has been burdened by Iran's stumbling economy and accusations from rivals that his confrontational policies have left Iran with few friends in the world.

In the debate, Ahmadinejad also appeared on the defensive. He accused two former presidents — Mohammad Khatami and Hashem Rafsanjani — of joining forces with Mousavi to wage a campaign of "lies" against him.

Rafsanjani, however, is backing former parliament speaker Mahdi Karroubi in the race. The fourth candidate is hard-liner Mohsen Rezaei, a former commander of the powerful Revolutionary Guard.

"I'm not fighting against one candidate," Ahmadinejad complained during the debate. "I'm standing against a combination led by Rafsanjani and with the cooperation of Mousavi and Khatami."

Ahmadinejad can still count on strong backing from the ruling theocracy, which has the final say in all important policy matter and is capable of mobilizing millions of votes. But Mousavi's "green movement" — named for the color adopted as a campaign symbol — appears to be gaining serious ground among young voters as the race moves into the final week.

Mousavi remained calm and sober during the debate, but Ahmadinejad gave his competitor a scornful smile whenever he spoke. The president tried to interrupt Mousavi twice while he was speaking, but the candidate told him to stop.

"I didn't interrupt you. You have no right speak during my time," said Mousavi.

Shortly before the debate, Ahmadinejad told a gathering of international scholars that Israel uses the "big deception of the Holocaust" to gain allies in the West.

In April at the U.N.'s conference against racism in Geneva, the Iranian president accused the West of using the Holocaust as a "pretext" for aggression against Palestinians, provoking walkouts by delegates including every European Union country in attendance.

The United States and eight other Western countries had already boycotted the event that started on the eve of Israel's Holocaust Remembrance Day, because of concerns Muslim countries would drown out all other issues with calls to denounce Israel and restrict free speech when it comes to criticizing Islam.

The Iranian president repeated his previous anti-Israel comments in September, calling the Holocaust by Nazi Germany during World War II a "fake" and saying that Israel is perpetrating a holocaust on the Palestinian people.

Ahmadinejad, known for virulent anti-Israeli rhetoric, said in 2005 that Israel should be "wiped off the map" and later called the Holocaust a "myth." Most recently, he described the Jewish state as a "germ of corruption."

Sarkozy denounced the "profoundly shocking character" of Ahmadinejad's latest remarks, the president's office said in Paris. Sarkozy also told Mottaki that Iran's "outrageous verbal attacks against the state of Israel were not acceptable."

Sarkozy said negotiations on Iran's nuclear program with the international community could "open a path of very large cooperation to Iran's benefit, including in the civilian nuclear (field)," the president's office quoted Sarkozy as saying.

"A negotiated solution is possible," the French president said, noting the United States is now "fully engaged in discussions."

Iran maintains its nuclear program is designed only to provide electricity. But Israel, the United States and other nations fear the effort is aimed at acquiring nuclear weapons.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:33 PM

If the US hadn't made certain comments about the last Iranian election a more moderate leader may well have been elected.

Ah well...hindsight is 20/20.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:34 PM

Well, that's where we do disagree, because I definitely don't agree that Ahmadinejad has any desire or intention to try to destroy Israel, nor do I think he would have the power to do so even if he did get re-elected.

One of the problems facing Ahmadinejad in getting re-elected is that in the last election, he campaigned on improving Iran's economy and helping the working class people. He did neither, and people see their situation as being substantially worse now than it was before he was elected.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM

CarolC,

My commnet was: "be both elected and encouraged by the UN inaction to perform actions that will lead to WW III. "


Your reply was "I definitely don't agree that Ahmadinejad has any desire or intention to try to destroy Israel, nor do I think he would have the power to do so even if he did get re-elected."


1. Desire has already been stated by him
2. Intention will be shown by his actions, not your belief.



3. I did not mention Israel or his attackig it- just that he would do SOMETHING that would lead to WW III- Look at history- the Serbian Nationalist that shot an Austrian Grand Duke sis not desire, intend, OR have the "Power" to start WW I- But he did.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 04:59 PM

Agree with Carol 100 per cent.....One thing I am sure of, the man is no idiot and only an idiot would attack Israel when he and his country were sure to be destroyed by either Israel or the US.

Most of the Iranian president's rhetoric is intended for internal consumption.....of course the US and Israel know that very well, but the "game" goes on.

Mr Obama deserves credit for puting some effort into the Israel/ Palestinian issue, but as I said before he was elected...even if HIS intentions are good, how far will he be allowed to go?
Its well known that the Jews run the American Financial system and in so doing, control American foreign policy, they are certainly not going to allow any real concessions to be given to the Palestinians.

Mr Obama served his purpose in removing the discredited Republican administration....a bold gamble which paid off, but now its back to reality for Mr Obama and America.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:11 PM

No, not destroying Israel or starting any wars whatever. At least none of the quotes popularly attributed to him have stated any such intention.

But if the US or Israel attempts to goad Iran into war, as Cheney proposed doing in a false flag operation (US boats disguised as Iranian boats attacking US ships), a war could take place, but it would not be UN inaction that would be responsible. It would be US or Israeli action that would be responsible.

Iran has no desire whatever to start any wars. And they never have started any wars since the Middle Ages. Unlike Israel and the US.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:11 PM

Ak,

"only an idiot would attack Israel "

So Hezboallah ( Lebenon: Crossing border to kidnap Israeli soldier) and Hamas (Gaza: Rocket attacks on civilian towns) are idiots? Or perhaps they, like Ahmadinejad, have been lulled by the inaction of the UN, EU and US into thinking that there will be no consequences to their actions.

If THEY do not believe that they were "sure to be destroyed by either Israel or the US" because of what they had done previously and gotten away with, why would they NOT continue to act in that manner?


IT DOES NOT MATTER whether they will be destroyed OR NOT: If they THINK they can get away with it, they might well attempt it if it seems TO THEM to advance their aims.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:13 PM

"Iran has no desire whatever to start any wars."

Thank you very much for clearing that up. Now, can i have the winning lottery number, since you have claimed omnipotence?

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:37 PM

Well, sitting back from Juicy Brucie's testosterone-fuelled diatribes, it seems pretty evident that: -

1. The holocaust did happen (Bruce - 1, Iran - 0)
2. Israel does use it to influence world opinion (Iran- 1, Bruce-0)

Result - a score-draw.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 05:54 PM

The proof is in the pudding. Look at their track records. Both the US and Israel have long histories of acts of aggression against other countries. Iran has none. The US and Israel both have geopolitical motives for starting wars in other countries. There is no scenario in which Iran benefits from starting any wars in any countries.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:46 PM

IRan has none? Does the name Darius mean anything to you?


A

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 07:56 PM

Hush, Amos... Leave CarolC her illusions. Nobody but Israel and the US EVER wants to go to war.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:29 PM

I didn't realize we were considering 522-486 BCE to be in the current time frame.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 08:31 PM

I did say since the Middle Ages. Perhaps the Middle Ages was too recent.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:20 PM

This page on the wars of Persia and the wars of Iran covers conflicts from the late 18th Century to the Present day.







Persian Civil War-(1779-1794)-The revolt of the eunuch general Agha Mohammed led to this 15-year civil war. Agha Mohammed eventually won the war and became the Shah of Persia.

Georgian-Persian War-(1795-1796)-After consolidating his power, Agha Mohammed invaded the Caucasian kingdom of Georgia, which had previously been a part of the Persian Empire, but had broken away following the death of Nadir Shah in 1747. Persian forces invaded Georgia and defeated the Georgian King Heraclius.

Afghan-Persian War-(1798)-The new Shah of Persia, Fath Ali, supported a pretender to the Afghan throne against the Afghan King. The pretender, Muhammad Barakzai overthrew his brother, Zaman, with help from an invading Persian army.

Russo-Persian War-(1804-1813)-Following Russia's invasion and annexation of Georgia and Karabakh, Persia gave aid to rebels resisting Russian rule. Russia then attacked Persia, and put the city of Erevan under siege in 1804. The siege was lifted upon the arrival of Persian reinforcements led by Shah Fath Ali and Crown Prince Abbas Mirza. Warfare continued in the Caucasus region and along the Caspian coast until 1813. The most significant battle after the initial invasion and siege was the Battle of Aslanduz (Oct. 21, 1812), in which the Russians defeated an army led by Abbas Mirza. A peace treaty was signed on October 12, 1813 at Gulistan. In this treaty, Persia recognized Russian rule over Georgia and other disputed Transcaucasian areas.

Afghan-Persian War-(1816)-Persia invaded Afghanistan and occupied the western Afghan city of Herat. Local Afghan guerrillas forced the Persians to exit Afghanistan.

Turkish-Persian War-(1821-1823)-The regime of Crown Prince Abbas Mirza launched an attack on Ottoman Turkey due to Turkish aid to Azerbaijani rebels in Persia. The rebels had fled from Persia and were given refuge by the Ottomans. The war opened with a Persian invasion of Turkey in the Lake Van region, and a counter-invasion by the Ottoman Pasha of Baghdad (Iraq belonged to the Ottoman Empire), who invaded western Persia. This invasion force was driven back across the border, but the newly modernized Persian army of 30,000 troops defeated 50,000 Ottoman Turks in the Battle of Erzurum near Lake Van in 1821. A peace treaty in 1823 ended the war with no changes to their mutual border.

Russo-Persian War --(1825-1828)--This war resulted from the ongoing border disputes arising from the Treaty of Gulistan (1813) between Persia and Russia. Persian forces were initially successful, capturing the Georgian capital of Tbilisi in 1825. Russian forces led by General Ivan Fedorovich Paskievich went on the offensive against the invading Persians and defeated them at the Battle of Ganja (also known as the Battle of Kirovabad) on September 26, 1826. Abbas Mirza led a Persian force of 30,000 which was defeated and routed by a Russian army of 15,000 troops. In 1827, General Paskievich captured Erevan and Tabriz in the the northwest of Persia. The Russians captured the Persian capital of Tehran in the winter of 1827-28, along with the Persian army's total inventory of artillery pieces. The resulting peace Treaty of Turkomanchi recognized Russian rule of Armenia, forbade Persia to station warships on the Caspian Sea, and forced Persia to pay a war indemnity to Russia. A war indemnity was a financial payment from a defeated nation to the winner to pay the cost of the war. This defeat basically ended Persia's role as a major power among the nations of the Gulf and the Caucuses region.

Afghan-Persian War-(1836-1838)-Persia invaded Afghanistan partly in response to Britain's influence in the region, and laid siege to the western Afghan city of Herat. The Herat defenders were aided by a British military advisor named Eldred Potter. Potter offered his services to the Afghans and set about organizing the city's defenses. Persian assaults on the city failed, and the invading army gave up the siege (September 28, 1838), and returned home.

Afghan/Anglo-Persian War-(1855-1857)-Persia again invaded Afghanistan, this time successfully capturing Herat. This upset the British, who claimed influence over Afghanistan. The British Empire declared war on Persia (Nov. 1, 1856), and proceeded to invade Persia both by sea and by land. British forces landed and took the Persian port of Bushire in January, 1857. An Anglo-Indian army invaded Persia, which soon gave up and agreed to evacuate Herat.

Persian Revolution -(1906-1909)-Persia was beset by internal political violence and rebellions against the rule of the tyrannical Shah Mohammed Ali. Actual warfare broke out in 1908 by a rebellion in the city of Tabriz. The Shah's forces besieged Tabriz, but the rebellion did not end until an intervening Russian army brutally seized Tabriz in March of 1909. While this was occurring, other rebel factions marched on Tehran, capturing the capital city on July 12, 1909. The Shah abdicated his throne, and his young son, Ahmad Mirza became the new Shah.

Mohammed Ali's Invasion -(1911)-With Russian approval and aid, the exiled former Shah, Mohammed Ali, landed on the Caspian coast on June 17, 1911,in an attempt to recapture his throne. His forces were defeated by a government army and he returned to exile on September 5, 1911.

Anglo-Russian Invasion and Occupation of Persia -(1911)-Russia invaded and occupied northern Persia on the pretext of restoring order in the country and also to protect Russian financial and economic interests. British forces also invaded and occupied most of the oil-producing southwestern Persia. This was partly to counter Russian influence, and partly to protect British oil supplies.

World War One -(1914-1918)-Though Persia officially did not take part in this war, Russian and Ottoman Turkish forces used Persia's Caucasus region as a battleground throughout the war. British forces continued and expanded their occupation of southern Persia while also pursuing invasions of Ottoman Iraq.

Soviet Invasion of Persia -(1920-1921)-The new Communist regime in Russia (now renamed as the Soviet Union), invaded northern Persia and established Soviet satellite states in Gilan, Kurdistan, Azerbaijan, and Khorasan. Following the coup of Persian General Reza Khan Pahlavi in February of 1921, a peace treaty with the Soviets was ratified, and Soviet forces withdrew.

Persian Revolution -(1921)-Reza Khan Pahlavi overthrew the corrupt Shah Ahmad Mirza and crushed the separatist regimes in Gilan, Kurdistan, Azerbaijan, and Khorasan.

Arab Rebellion in Khuzistan -(1932)

Anglo-Soviet Invasion and Occupation of Persia -(1941-1946)-The Soviet Union and the United Kingdom once again occupied large areas of Iran due to their war with Germany during World War Two. This time, no combat took place in Iranian territory, but the Soviets did aid separatist movements among the Kurds and Azeris.

Kurdish Rebellion -(1941-1944)

Azeri Rebellion -(1945)

Kurdish Mahabad Rebellion -(1946)--This Soviet-supported Kurdish separatist movement fell to the Iranian army after the Soviets withdrew their troops in 1946.

Anti-Mossadeq Coup -(1953)--The American Central Intelligence Agency planned and executed a coup against Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadeq. Britain was concerned that Mossadeq was going to nationalize the oilfields of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (now known as British Petroleum, or BP) and the United States feared that Mossadeq may ally Iran with the Soviet Union. The plan for the coup was called "Operation Ajax," and it succeeded in overthrowing Prime Minister Mossadeq and installing a more pliable Prime Minister. The Shah assumed greater powers, and Iran was a firm ally of the Western powers during the Cold War until the Shah's overthrow in 1979.

Iran-Iraq Border Battles -(1969-1970)--Disputes over the Shatt al-Arab waterway, claimed by both nations, led to hostilities in the late 1960s. Iran supported a rebellion by Iraqi Kurds until 1975, when the Shah and Saddam Hussein reached an agreement

Kurdish Rebellion -(1970-1980)--During the Islamic Revolution led by Ayatollah Khomeini against the Shah, Iranian Kurdistan rose in rebellion. The Iranian Army and the Revolutionary Guards crushed the rebellion. Kurdish losses were around 10,000.

Iranian Seizure of Gulf Islands -(1970-1980)--Iran occupied several Persian Gulf islands claimed by the United Arab Emirates.


Dhofar War-(1973-1975)--Iran sent troops to Oman to aid the Sultan of Oman, who was fighting against Marxist rebels aided by South Yemen. The Shah of Iran reportedly wanted to not only support a fellow pro-Western Gulf Monarch, but also wanted to give his troops combat experience in the field.

Islamic Revolution in Iran -(1979-1980)--Iran was swept with anti-Shah protests, culminating in the Shah going into exile and the Ayatollah Khomeini taking power and installing an Islamic Republic. During the resulting instability in Iran, several ethnic groups rebelled, including the Kurds and Azeris. A Marxist group known as the Mujahadeen Khalq also became active against the Islamic Republic.

U.S.-Iran Hostage Crisis--(1979-1981)--Radical Iranian students seized control of the American Embassy in Tehran, sparking a crisis that nearly resulted in war. A badly-planned and badly-executed U.S. military rescue attempt ended in disaster in 1980.



The First Persian Gulf War (also known as the Iran-Iraq War)—(1980-1988) - In 1975, Iraq and Iran came to an agreement on the disputed Shatt al-Arab waterway which provides Iraq's only outlet to the sea. In exchange for Iran stopping support for Kurdish rebels, Iraq agreed to share the Shatt al-Arab with Iran. This and other disputes over their common border, plus the belief that the 1979 revolution had weakened Iran, led Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein to launch an invasion of Iran on September 22, 1980. After initial successes, the Iraqi army ground to a halt and soon retreated under repeated assaults by the numerically larger Iranian Army and Revolutionary Guards. After the Iranians pushed the war into Iraq, Saddam's forces began using chemical weapons. By 1988, both nations faced exhaustion and, after nearly a million casualties between them, agreed to end the conflict.

The Tanker War -(1984-1988)--Iran and Iraq each attacked oil tankers and oil facilities in the Persian Gulf in an effort to damage each other's economy. The United States entered the fray in 1987 by "reflagging" several Kuwaiti oil tankers, thereby providing them with American legal and military protection. Iran continued to attack these ships, provoking violent American responses.
Iran's Proxy War with Israel -(1980s-Present)--Iran openly supports and arms Israel's enemies, Syria, Hamas, and Hezbollah. Israel and the United States consider Iran to be a party to the warfare waged by Hamas, Hezbollah, and the tensions with Syria.

PEJAK Kurdish Rebellion -(1998-Present)--The Party for a Free Life in Iranian Kurdistan (PEJAK) is a Kurdish guerrilla force fighting for freedom from Iran. Believed to be supported by the Kurds in Iraq as well as by the United States.

Proxy War with the United States -(Current)--Iran and the United States are, for all intents and purposes, engaged in a mutual proxy war against each other. The United States alleges that Iran is supplying weapons, training, money, and cross-border bases to anti-American forces in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran is meanwhile alleging that the United States is arming and encouraging Kurdish, Azeri, Arab (Khuzistani), and Baluchi militants in rebellion against Tehran. This all serves as a backdrop for the possibility of a new war between the United States and Iran. Such an "Iran War," in addition to the current Iraq War and Afghanistan War could destabalize the Middle East and jeopardize the West's oil supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:23 PM

Or going back as far as you said...


http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/centrasia/milxiran.html

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:33 PM

CarolC: "Iran has no desire whatever to start any wars. And they never have started any wars since the Middle Ages"



Georgian-Persian War-(1795-1796)-After consolidating his power, Agha Mohammed invaded the Caucasian kingdom of Georgia, which had previously been a part of the Persian Empire, but had broken away following the death of Nadir Shah in 1747. Persian forces invaded Georgia and defeated the Georgian King Heraclius.

Afghan-Persian War-(1798)-The new Shah of Persia, Fath Ali, supported a pretender to the Afghan throne against the Afghan King. The pretender, Muhammad Barakzai overthrew his brother, Zaman, with help from an invading Persian army.

Russo-Persian War-(1804-1813)-Following Russia's invasion and annexation of Georgia and Karabakh, Persia gave aid to rebels resisting Russian rule. Russia then attacked Persia, and put the city of Erevan under siege in 1804. The siege was lifted upon the arrival of Persian reinforcements led by Shah Fath Ali and Crown Prince Abbas Mirza. Warfare continued in the Caucasus region and along the Caspian coast until 1813. The most significant battle after the initial invasion and siege was the Battle of Aslanduz (Oct. 21, 1812), in which the Russians defeated an army led by Abbas Mirza. A peace treaty was signed on October 12, 1813 at Gulistan. In this treaty, Persia recognized Russian rule over Georgia and other disputed Transcaucasian areas.

Afghan-Persian War-(1816)-Persia invaded Afghanistan and occupied the western Afghan city of Herat. Local Afghan guerrillas forced the Persians to exit Afghanistan.

Turkish-Persian War-(1821-1823)-The regime of Crown Prince Abbas Mirza launched an attack on Ottoman Turkey due to Turkish aid to Azerbaijani rebels in Persia. The rebels had fled from Persia and were given refuge by the Ottomans. The war opened with a Persian invasion of Turkey in the Lake Van region, and a counter-invasion by the Ottoman Pasha of Baghdad (Iraq belonged to the Ottoman Empire), who invaded western Persia. This invasion force was driven back across the border, but the newly modernized Persian army of 30,000 troops defeated 50,000 Ottoman Turks in the Battle of Erzurum near Lake Van in 1821. A peace treaty in 1823 ended the war with no changes to their mutual border.

Russo-Persian War --(1825-1828)--This war resulted from the ongoing border disputes arising from the Treaty of Gulistan (1813) between Persia and Russia. Persian forces were initially successful, capturing the Georgian capital of Tbilisi in 1825. Russian forces led by General Ivan Fedorovich Paskievich went on the offensive against the invading Persians and defeated them at the Battle of Ganja (also known as the Battle of Kirovabad) on September 26, 1826. Abbas Mirza led a Persian force of 30,000 which was defeated and routed by a Russian army of 15,000 troops. In 1827, General Paskievich captured Erevan and Tabriz in the the northwest of Persia. The Russians captured the Persian capital of Tehran in the winter of 1827-28, along with the Persian army's total inventory of artillery pieces. The resulting peace Treaty of Turkomanchi recognized Russian rule of Armenia, forbade Persia to station warships on the Caspian Sea, and forced Persia to pay a war indemnity to Russia. A war indemnity was a financial payment from a defeated nation to the winner to pay the cost of the war. This defeat basically ended Persia's role as a major power among the nations of the Gulf and the Caucuses region.

Afghan-Persian War-(1836-1838)-Persia invaded Afghanistan partly in response to Britain's influence in the region, and laid siege to the western Afghan city of Herat. The Herat defenders were aided by a British military advisor named Eldred Potter. Potter offered his services to the Afghans and set about organizing the city's defenses. Persian assaults on the city failed, and the invading army gave up the siege (September 28, 1838), and returned home.

Afghan/Anglo-Persian War-(1855-1857)-Persia again invaded Afghanistan, this time successfully capturing Herat. This upset the British, who claimed influence over Afghanistan. The British Empire declared war on Persia (Nov. 1, 1856), and proceeded to invade Persia both by sea and by land. British forces landed and took the Persian port of Bushire in January, 1857. An Anglo-Indian army invaded Persia, which soon gave up and agreed to evacuate Herat.




8 is never... So, Israel has NEVER attacked any Arab nation, right (or at least not more than 8 times)

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:36 PM

Ok. I stand corrected. However, other than a couple of minor border disputes with its neighbors, Iran has not started any wars since 1855. That's still a hell of a lot better track record than the US and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say?
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jun 09 - 10:40 PM

Here's some interesting commentary from a Holocaust survivor on the subject of whether or not the Holocaust is being used dishonestly by the government of Israel to justify doing things it shouldn't be doing (which is Ahmadinejad's main theme when he discusses the Holocaust)...

http://www.creative-i.info/?p=7311

Hajo Meyer, author of the book The End of Judaism, was born in Bielefeld, in Germany, in 1924. In 1939, he fled on his own at age 14 to the Netherlands to escape the Nazi regime, and was unable to attend school. A year later, when the Germans occupied the Netherlands he lived in hiding with a poorly forged ID. Meyer was captured by the Gestapo in March 1944 and deported to the Auschwitz concentration camp a week later. He is one of the last survivors of Auschwitz.

Adri Nieuwhof:What would you like to say to introduce yourself to EI's readers?

Hajo Meyer: I had to quit grammar school in Bielefeld after the Kristallnacht [the two-day pogrom against Jews in Nazi Germany], in November 1938. It was a terrible experience for an inquisitive boy and his parents. Therefore, I can fully identify with the Palestinian youth that are hampered in their education. And I can in no way identify with the criminals who make it impossible for Palestinian youth to be educated.

AN: What motivated you to write your book, The End of Judaism?

HM: In the past, the European media have written extensively about extreme right-wing politicians like Joerg Haider in Austria and Jean-Marie Le Pen in France. But when Ariel Sharon was elected [prime minister] in Israel in 2001, the media remained silent. But in the 1980s I understood the deeply fascist thinking of these politicians. With the book I wanted to distance myself from this. I was raised in Judaism with the equality of relationships among human beings as a core value. I only learned about nationalist Judaism when I heard settlers defend their harassment of Palestinians in interviews. When a publisher asked me to write about my past, I decided to write this book, in a way, to deal with my past. People of one group who dehumanize people who belong to another group can do this, because they either have learned to do so from their parents, or they have been brainwashed by their political leaders. This has happened for decades in Israel in that they manipulate the Holocaust for their political aims. In the long-run the country is destructing itself this way by inducing their Jewish citizens to become paranoid. In 2005 [then Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon illustrated this by saying in the Knesset [the Israeli parliament], we know we cannot trust anyone, we only can trust ourselves. This is the shortest possible definition of somebody who suffers from clinical paranoia. One of the major annoyances in my life is that Israel by means of trickery calls itself a Jewish state, while in fact it is Zionist. It wants the maximum territory with a minimum number of Palestinians. I have four Jewish grandparents. I am an atheist. I share the Jewish socio-cultural inheritance and I have learned about Jewish ethics. I don't wish to be represented by a Zionist state. They have no idea about the Holocaust. They use the Holocaust to implant paranoia in their children.

AN: In your book you write about the lessons you have learned from your past. Can you explain how your past influenced your perception of Israel and Palestine?

HM: I have never been a Zionist. After the war, Zionist Jews spoke about the miracle of having "our own country." As a confirmed atheist I thought, if this is a miracle by God, I wished that he had performed the smallest miracle imaginable by creating the state 15 years earlier. Then my parents would not have been dead.

I can write up an endless list of similarities between Nazi Germany and Israel. The capturing of land and property, denying people access to educational opportunities and restricting access to earn a living to destroy their hope, all with the aim to chase people away from their land. And what I personally find more appalling then dirtying one's hands by killing people, is creating circumstances where people start to kill each other. Then the distinction between victims and perpetrators becomes faint. By sowing discord in a situation where there is no unity, by enlarging the gap between people — like Israel is doing in Gaza.

AN: In your book you write about the role of Jews in the peace movement in and outside Israel, and Israeli army refuseniks. How do you value their contribution?

HM: Of course it is positive that parts of the Jewish population of Israel try to see Palestinians as human beings and as their equals. However, it disturbs me how paper-thin the number is that protests and is truly anti-Zionist. We get worked up by what happened in Hitler's Germany. If you expressed only the slightest hint of criticism at that time, you ended up in the Dachau concentration camp. If you expressed criticism, you were dead. Jews in Israel have democratic rights. They can protest in the streets, but they don't.

AN: Can you comment on the news that Israeli ministers approved a draft law banning commemoration of the Nakba, or the dispossession of historic Palestine? The law proposes punishment of up to three years in prison.

HM: It is so racist, so dreadful. I am at a loss for words. It is an expression of what we already know. [The Israeli Nakba commemoration organization] Zochrot was founded to counteract Israeli efforts to wipe out the marks that are a reminder of Palestinian life. To forbid Palestinians to publicly commemorate the Nakba. … they cannot act in a more Nazi-like, fascist way. Maybe it will help to awaken the world.

AN: What are your plans for the future?

HM: [Laughs] Do you know how old I am? I am almost 85 years old. I always say cynically and with self-mockery that I have a choice: either I am always tired because I want to do so much, or I am going to sit still waiting for the time to go by. Well, I plan to be tired, because I have still so much to say.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say? (Ahmadinejad)
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM

CarolC and others also deny the war fought against Israel by proxy by Iran who funds, trains and arms Hezbollah and Hamas.

Couple that to some other revelations about Iran and Iran's nuclear programme.

Had the US under GWB not acted as they did with regard to Saddam Hussein's Iraq (Another sponsor of anti-Israeli terrorist organisations) nobody would ever have heard anything about Iran's secret uranium enrichment plant at Natanz. I have often asked those who insist that Iran's nuclear programme is purely peaceful why anyone would build such a facility in secret - to date I have never been given any sort of rational explanation.

So had everything gone as the anti-Iraq war crowd would have liked, for the past seven years Iran would have been enriching uranium and we would have been none the wiser, we would know absolutely nothing about it. And while that was going on the "public" building and commissioning of its showcase nuclear power facility would have proceeded apace in what the IAEA would swear as being total transparency.

Had everything gone as the anti-Iraq war crowd would have liked, Libya would by now have had a working nuclear device that nobody would have any idea about. Their blue print for their nuclear weapon was the same as the one held by the Iranians for two years before the IAEA forced them to hand it over. Now again the question must be asked, "If Iran's nuclear programme is for peaceful purposes, why does Iran require the blue-prints of a nuclear weapon and why have they been so reluctant to surrender those documents to the IAEA?" No rational explanation for that behaviour either.

Had everything gone as the anti-Iraq war crowd would have liked you would have had a situation where two Arab countries had nuclear weapons that nobody knew about, one with no nuclear programme at all and another with a "peaceful" nuclear programme with a clean bill of health from the IAEA.

Neither Iran, or Libya would have had to have launched an attack against Israel - they would have used their "proxies" to carry-out that attack to destroy Israel, then denied all knowledge.

Thankfully George W. Bush did act as he did and a whole rake of potential horror stories came to light, exposing the potential dangers for what they were and allowed them to be at least known if not totally neutralised.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say? (Ahmadinejad)
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 09 - 11:35 AM

That war was started by Israel, not Iran.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say? (Ahmadinejad)
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:18 AM

A campain by left-of-the-middle Germans against hatred of foreigners has the slogan "My friend is a foreigner" printed on a T-shirt under the picture of someone who is visibly not German.

Now German neo-Nazis use that slogan on a T-shirt below a picture of Ahmadinejad.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say? (Ahmadinejad)
From: kendall
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:50 AM

Did Ahmadinejad really say the Israel should be wiped out? There is some dispute about that. Another translation of his remarks said that he stated that all nations in time are defeated as a natural course.

Can you think of one country that has endured through the ages since time began? Of course not.

Every living thing carries the seeds of its own destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: What did he really say? (Ahmadinejad)
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:26 AM

No. He didn't say that. He said that the Zionist regime in Israel would some day be wiped from the pages of time, like the Soviet Union.