BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 07:12 AM

And why aren't the Iranians allowed to develop nuclear weapons if they choose? The Israelis did. The Pakistanis did. The Russians did. Now let's see if we can name three countries that are very near to Iran.....

But of course America and Israel get to decide, because they are good nations, and would never do any harm to anyone.

(The only objection I can see to the Iranians doing what they please is that they are actual signatories to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, unlike certain nations. Oh yes, and other nations that signed the Treaty pledged to work towards the elimination of their nuclear weapons, and how is that going?)

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: DougR
Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:31 AM

Considering he essentially gave Iran the "go-ahead" to produce nuclear weapons it's a bit of a puzzlement to me why so many of you are so accepting of the speech, but wha the hey? What else is new?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 11:56 PM

The assertion was made earlier in the thread that the Jews were forced out of what is now Israel and occupied Palestine a long time ago, and then they returned. I was addressing this assertion specifically. It entirely factually incorrect. The people who became the people who call themselves Palestinians are the descendants of Christians and Jews who were indigenous to the region. The Ashkenazim and Sephardim originated in Europe and not the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 11:43 PM

Before people assert that my sources have no credibility, people really ought to bother to take the time to actually read them.

I did not address the issue of Israel as an ongoing concern, because that assertion was not made, and I would not have had any reason to correct it even had it been made. My reason for providing the evidence of most Jews' origins being Europe, and not the Middle East, was to correct the misinformation posted about it earlier in the thread, which is used quite often as an attempted justification for the continuing oppression, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and genocide of the Palestinians.

The Jews who live in Israel are there, and I would not advocate moving them to anywhere else. However, European Jews are not in a position to use their holy books as evidence of having more of a right to live in the area that is now Israel and Palestine than the non-Jewish indigenous people do. They do not have their origins in that area, and have no historic claim to it.

If, by saying that there would be no Palestinians had the Arab countries been willing to resettle them is one of the more ridiculous arguments I think I've ever seen. The people in Gaza are Palestinians. Most of the people in the West Bank not living in Jewish settlements are Palestinians. The non-Jewish Israeli Arabs are Palestinians. And the people who fled what is now Israel during the Nakba - who are the indigenous people of that area, and their descendents, are Palestinians. Whether or not they were settled by other countries would not change the fact that they are Palestinians.

But I can understand why the poster asserting their lack of existence would want to do so. It's not enough to try to get rid of them physically. Genocidal people sometimes also need to remove any cultural trace of a people as well. Wouldn't want any reminders of their dirty deeds bothering their precious consciences (if they actually have any). By the way, the term for the practice of denying the existence of a people is 'cultural genocide'.

On the other hand, maybe the person making these arguments is only joking. If so, that person has a really sick sense of humor.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Peter T.
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 11:06 PM

It's interesting that Obama has picked "e pluribus unum" -- Garry Wills wrote a whole book about how Abe Lincoln picked out "All men are created equal" as his radical version of the American legend -- the Declaration of Independence, and not the Constitution.   

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 10:38 PM

Okay, robomatic, so Al Gore is a major dumbass, then. ;-D

Now what?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 06:18 PM

Carol:

This post of yours:

More documentation that the Bible's historical account of Jewish history is largely fiction...

http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2007/07/no-rivkele-there-wasnt-roman-exile-of.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

In this popular refutation of the book described in the above link, the only thing that is being disputed is the idea that Israeli historians didn't already know about what the author said in his book...

is indicative of your frequent references to 'sources' of which you cannot determine any validity, because of your lack of first hand information and of a background of study that would allow you to distinguish between bulk and bunk. I don't mind it especially, because you are a good retriever of interesting sites (just not necessarily cogent sites to your purpose).

What I found so interesting about the first reference, an effort to debunk the 'Roman Exile of the Jews' is that I'm not aware of any assertion of a Roman Exile in the first place. The Bar Kochba revolt is not biblical in any event, and it is historical. But the history indicates the Romans soundly defeated this revolt and killed many if not most of the revolters. There is plenty of historical evidence of Jews in the area, the Dead Sea Scrolls and Masada.

The Babylonian exile is a staple of Jewish self-definition, it occurred much earlier, yet is long long after the events of the Five Books of Moses.

Your reference to the HaAretz article is simply some guy's theory with no corroboration that I'm aware of. It's interesting stuff, it's a long way from playing out. It seems to be a cognate of the well-known theory of Koestler's about European Jews originating from a Turkic tribe called Khazars. After over a generation, it certainly has not been proven (it may even have been disproven).

There's plenty of genetic research going on, my understanding is it indicates that European Jews and modern Arabs bear the cousinly markers that indicate a relationship closer than European Jews and European tribes. But it's not something I'm going to lean on, as I am a lot more careful about distinguishing fact from theory than you appear to be by your eager sourcing.

You seriously weaken your arguments when you readily cite this stuff, because you appear not to cite the strongest arguments to your partisan position, you cite ALL arguments.

You've also failed to make a logical argument that even if it were true (which it isn't) that modern Jews are not linked by ancestral habitation in the Mideast, why several million Israelis with a going democratic nation should not defend their interests against an antagonistic population which seeks to destroy them. They forged a nation the way any nation gets created, and they have all the rights that go with any nation making itself unique, including the very nation we live in.

The fact that there are Palestinians at all now is because the Arab nations made it a policy to not resettle them, as opposed to Israel's policy of resettling the Jewish refugees and displaced persons from the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Amos
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 05:02 PM

First cousin to d'Artagnan?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

"One for Many" and "Many for One"?

(You do go ON, D'Artagnon)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:27 PM

Gore probably knows it too, and simply mispoke at the time. At least, I would hope so. But anything is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: pdq
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:31 PM

At least Obama got E Pluribus Unum correct, unlike Al Gore...


"Well, back in 1994 then-Vice President Gore gave a little-known speech ruminating on the meaning of the melting pot. This is what he said:

'We can build a collective civic space large enough for all our separate identities, that we can be E Pluribus Unum—out of one, many.'

Latin students everywhere know that E Pluribus Unum means 'Out of many, One'--precisely the opposite of what Gore said."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:31 PM

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Although I find some opinions more reprehensible than other, but that's my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:29 PM

so CarolC it sounds like you are coming somewhat around to the view that it is not ONLY poor defeated deprived Palestinians who have the legitimate reactions to Obama's speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 10:02 AM

Or it will be if something actually changes for the better for the ones most severely effected.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 09:28 AM

I suppose it's a matter of whether Obama's is holding a half-empty glass or a half-full glass.   But when you put it in the context of a previous history where the glass has been completely empty, with the bottom knocked out, and it's being waved around as a jagged-ended weapon, either way is a welcome advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Peter T.
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 08:24 AM

I like Ebbie's metaphor of reweaving damaged threads. You can see throughout the speech the threads of everyone's narrative, everyone's agenda, but with an attempt at reweaving them. Perhaps the most important aspect of the speech is the acknowledgment that everyone in the region has a story to which they cling, and which gives them meaning, and that these stories intersect for worse and better. Even just acknowledging in the open that everyone's story has partial validity, and is also partially wrong, is a pretty big deal.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 07:55 AM

I didn't hear the entire speech but I have heard some of it and heard the views of some folks whoes opinions (David Broder, E. J. Dione) on NPR and what does seem to be the best part about the speech is that Obama successfully changed the tone of the of the debate/discussion... If he achieved nothing else, this is a major step forward...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 06:31 AM

Some people seem to think that the inclusion of viewpoints that are critical of the speech suggests that those who provide those viewpoints hear only the people who don't like what was said.

First of all, this is a rather large assumption (and in incorrect one, at that). Secondly, it shows that there are people who think that only one side of the issue should be allowed to be expressed. While I have provided an alternative point of view, unlike quite a few other people in the thread, I have not suggested that other people should not provide any other perspectives besides the ones I have provided.

Personally, I am aware of all of the different perspectives on the speech. But the response from many of the people who were the intended targets of the speech is as important as any other, and should be included in this discussion.

I understand that a lot of people might find those perspectives to be a bit of a buzz kill, but it's not really about them after all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Jun 09 - 02:54 AM

People who hear only the people who don't like what was said - for whatever reason - need to cast a wider net.

Perhaps it is necessary to go into all the nuances of what was said and what was left unsaid but it isn't what I wanted out of this thread.

In my opinion, some people forget the tremendously large and complicated task that President Obama has before him. If, as it appears to me, the President is picking carefully at the tapestry in order to reweave the damaged parts without causing irreparable damage to what could ahve been. I admire his skill and insight, concerned about the brinksmanship in all parties concerned (in the mideast and, it seems, just about everywhere) and cautiously optimistic for the future.

And again, I say, Bravo, Obama!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:48 PM

Oh, I agree that the job in front of him is huge and extraordinarily difficult. But listening to what the people he was addressing have to say about the speech is an important part of what needs to be done to make it work. Listening is always half the job. Obama has said this many times himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: heric
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:40 PM

Fair enough that nutball isn't a nice word, but it is difficlut enough, if not impossible, address ~legitimate~ grievances by way of unpalatable compromises. This is his stated goal (and I think it's sincere.) With great effort, great skill and a lot of luck, he might achieve some of that in some measure. The first thing he needs is a sufficient level of support from a sufficent number of affected people. So his target audience is not everyone. We all know in advance that many people will reject his requests or refuse his suggestions.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:15 PM

The stated purpose of the speech was to try to heal the relationship between the US and the people in the Muslim parts of the world and the people of the Middle East, and to start a dialogue with them.

Therefore, it is entirely in keeping with the subject of the speech to discuss the impact that the speech had on the people who the Obama administration stated were the intended targets of the speech.

Anyone who thinks this is not reasonable is the one who is only hearing what they want to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:09 PM

No, it was not... you heard only what you wanted to hear.

goodnight.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:05 PM

BECAUSE THE SPEECH WAS ALL ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST AND ABOUT MUSLIMS AND PALESTINIANS. THAT'S WHAT THE SPEECH WAS ABOUT. WE ARE DISCUSSING OBAMA'S SPEECH THAT WAS ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST, ABOUT MUSLIMS AND ABOUT PALESTINIANS.

ANYONE WHO CANNOT COMPREHEND WHAT THIS MEANS MAYBE OUGHT TO FIND ANOTHER OBAMA THREAD TO POST TO.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:04 PM

,,,but obviously, I didn't say it fast enough

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:04 PM

gee....I forgot to say "pretty please, with sugar on it.."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:03 PM

At the very least a public recognition of the Nakba, and an admission that what was done to the Palestinians was wrong. And then actually being an honest broker in the Middle East rather than being Israel's lawyer. This would mean that Israel doesn't get an automatic veto in the UN from the US, and also that Israel would be held to the same standards as the Palestinians. If US recognition of the elected Palestinian government should have strings attached based on its adhering to international law, recognition of the state of Israel, and ending violence, then so should US recognition of the elected Israeli government be dependent on the government of Israel doing the same (and recognizing the state of Palestine within the internationally recognized borders of where that state is supposed to be). If economic aid to the Palestinians (in particular, the Palestinians in Gaza) is conditional upon their fulfilling the terms of the roadmap, ending violence, and recognizing Israel, then economic aid to Israel should be conditional upon their doing the same and recognizing the state of Palestine withing the internationally recognized borders of where that state should be.

The US should also end its participation in the blockade of Gaza and should assist the Gazans in getting the things they need into Gaza.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 11:02 PM

WHY cannot we have ONE thread about Obama, current events or hope for peace without these predictable diversions into hurling of self-serving minutae on the entire history of the Mid-East?

GIVE IT A REST!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Riginslinger
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:56 PM

Jews moving in from Europe and constructing housing in Palestinian territories is a lot like Mexicans coming across the border, illegally, in the US, and sucking onto the welfare system. Personally, given what I've been through, I don't blame them a bit for being pissed off.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Amos
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:45 PM

For my part, Carol, I have no problem with her reciting her own history or the history of others in her tribe or whatever; but the voice that refuses to make any reach at all to overcome the past is not the voice of reason. Using the past as motivation for future hatred is very unwise.

This is not a matter of sides; it is unwise for humans generally.

What ideal scenario do you think the Arabs and Jews of Jordan, Israel, Palestine and Egypt should be striving for. then?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:43 PM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:42 PM

Right on Carol .... so true.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:38 PM

But the point is that a lot of people who are in the stated targeted audience don't agree that he was being fair minded. Suggesting that they should take it or leave it, and not allowing them the room to disagree, sure sounds like a continuation of the Bush policies on the Middle East, only with a fancy bow on to make it look nicer.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:36 PM

In reference to the response to my request for information about why Seham was being called a "nutball", I can understand why someone might not agree with everything she said. I agree with some of it, and I haven't made up my mind yet about the rest of it. But I really don't see anything in what she said that qualifies her as a nutball. Nevertheless, her perspective on the speech is hardly unique to her. It's a fairly common perspective among people with a similar background. And if healing the relationship between the US and people with her ethnic background and establishing a dialogue with them is the goal, I really don't see how that goal is served by calling them names because of the perspectives they articulate, or even denying the validity of their perspectives.

One thing I like about Obama (who, by the way, I campaigned for and voted for in both the primary and the general election) is that when people say things he doesn't necessarily agree with, he never belittles them or invalidates their feelings.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:28 PM

Here we go again!!!   Only proves that Obama can be fair minded and practice diplomacy and we get to hear the same tired old diatribes from the same tired old repeating people

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:28 PM

Of course the Israelis resettled the Jews into Israel. That was their goal all along, and is the reason why they worked very hard to get those Jews expelled from their home countries. The countries of origin of those Jews won't put them in gas chambers if they are returned as a part of a resettlement of Palestinian refugees back to their areas of origin. Especially if they are guaranteed that Israel will not make them suffer for allowing them back in.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 10:19 PM

More documentation that the Bible's historical account of Jewish history is largely fiction...

http://themagneszionist.blogspot.com/2007/07/no-rivkele-there-wasnt-roman-exile-of.html

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

In this popular refutation of the book described in the above link, the only thing that is being disputed is the idea that Israeli historians didn't already know about what the author said in his book...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/999386.html

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:52 PM

Before or after you let the Arab countries build concentrationa camps and ovens?


Since the majority of Arabs ( non-Jewish) stayed in Israel and becam citizens, and the vast majority of the Jews in Arab nations were expelled, perhaps the Palestinians should be treated by the Israelis the samne way that they were treated by the other Arab nations- IE, kept in camps and denied citizenship. THAT is what the Arab nations did to the Palestinian refugess, while Israel resettled the Jews expelled from Arab nations. It would seem to me that if the Arabs want to have Israel resttle those Palestinians, the Arab nations should pay Israel back the entire costs of the Jewish resettlement.

Now, lets talk about the 77% of Mandate Palestine RESERVED for only the Arabs, in violation of the League of Nations Mandate itself. Since the Arabs got 77% of the Mandate territory, they HAVE their homeland- and could have settled there after 1948 IF THEY RENOUNCED VIOLENT ACTIONS against Israel ( check the Jordanian offers) SO, the West Bank is part of the Israeli JEWISH homeland, and if the Palestinians are settled there they should be subject to Israeli law. Since Jordanian ( the Arab Muslim Palestinian homeland) LAW prohibits ownership of land by Jews, I presume you will allow Israel to make the same laws, and prohibit ownership of land by Muslims. After all, if it is good enough to treat Jews that way, shouldn't the Palestinians be happy to be treated the same?


Or do you still apply different rules to Jews and Muslims?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:51 PM

Here's my source about the biblical history being largely fiction...

http://mideastfacts.org/facts/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=34

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:46 PM

Well, the one who posted directly after my last post.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:46 PM

I wasn't referring to anything the above poster said when I said what that person has quoted.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: mg
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:45 PM

You can't go back very far with right of return and 2000 years is beyond comprehension..not that it would not be desired but that it could not reasonably be accomodated without abusing the present population. It will always be a problem after wars and various diaspora...the Irish are still worried that people will come back with the desire to reclaim what their families left in the famine, or I was told so in Ireland recently. I could go right to where my ancestors were but I wouldn't kick the people out who live there...and that is 160 or so years...not 2000.

It does matter where one lives..it can't always be accomodated. The Palestinians want their own land..not country..their own little farms and houses and orchards back. It does not mean they will get this..they probably won't..but some should be set aside in pepertuity for at least a Williamsburg-type situation, so that children can see what their grandparents were talking about, and can have picnics etc. on the grounds as they were kept long ago.

Down the road from me is a Palestinian who had an orange orchard stolen from him. He is hopefully forgetting this now as he is developing Alzheimers. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: heric
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:43 PM

>>Arrogantly dismissing them, as some people above seem to want to do, simply won't do the job.<<

I shan't be lured into your slippery talk.

This is a person who believes Americans slaughtered a million civilians in Iraq. Maybe you do, too, but let's start with the assumption that Obama doesn't.

This is a person who believes that Obama insulted her intelligence by not discussing America's cruel history of enslaving Arabs.

This is what Obama said (can you suggest a way he would have better addressed her concerns without undermining his entire message? - he wasn't there to regurgitate the full litany of all grievances and grudges):

"I know, too, that Islam has always been a part of America's story. The first nation to recognize my country was Morocco. In signing the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796, our second President John Adams wrote, "The United States has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Muslims." And since our founding, American Muslims have enriched the United States. They have fought in our wars, served in government, stood for civil rights, started businesses, taught at our Universities, excelled in our sports arenas, won Nobel Prizes, built our tallest building, and lit the Olympic Torch. And when the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our Founding Fathers –- Thomas Jefferson –- kept in his personal library."

Then you so charmingly said:

"If the objective of the speech was to mend relations with the Muslims of the world and with the people of the Middle East, as we have been told it was, then the reactions of those people are an important indication of the success or lack of success of the speech.

If, on the other hand, the objective of the speech was to reinforce Americans' sense of smug superiority over the Muslims of the world and the people of the Middle East, and also Americans' "fuck you" attitude towards the feelings of the Muslims of the world and the people of the Middle East, then judging by some of the posts above, the speech would appear to have been a success. "


This is a person who wanted him to overtly demonize his hosts and declare before the world "that under Mubarak, Al-Azhar represents little more than a place where regular book burnings occur and where extremists can be taught how to sow sectarian discord against their Shia brothers and sisters."


What do you think Obama should have said? Can you please all and each of a billion people all of the time?

P.S. http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SStephan/islamic_slavery.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:40 PM

How many times do I have to repeat that I support allowing all of the Jewish refugees from Arab countries to return to their countries of origin before the above poster will actually notice that I have said this? Five hundred? A million?

I have, probably dozens of times, said that I support allowing Jews who were expelled from their countries of origin to return to those countries. Which is no more and no less than what I am advocating for the Palestinians.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:29 PM

CarolC

I will support the giving of $1BILLION to each Arab refugee from Israel, right after you support the giving of the same to each Jewish refugee from the Arab nations ( ie, the ones that declared war on Israel in 1948).

That means $820,000,000,000,000 to the Jews that Israel resettled, and $640,000,000,000,000 to the Palestinians. Net result is $180,000,000,000,000 to the Jewish refugees. Waiting on the Arab nations to pay up...


"In other words, there never was an expulsion of the Jews from that region, and the accounts of the Jewish kingdom there are greatly exaggerated."

You had best provide a source for this- as it contradicts what is known about the states in the period 1200BCE to 300 ACE.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:06 PM

By the way, according to most archaeologists, including Israeli archaeologists, the biblical narrative of the history of Jews in the Levant is largely fiction. And also, according to most experts, including Israeli experts, most Jews have no historical familial connection whatever to what is now Israel. In other words, there never was an expulsion of the Jews from that region, and the accounts of the Jewish kingdom there are greatly exaggerated.

So European Jews really do not have any historical right of return, nor to any Jews other than the Arab Jews whose families never left the area.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 09:01 PM

I would say that right of return for those expelled and their descendents would at least conform to international law.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Bill H //\\
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:23 PM

I would agree with McGrath except for one point---which is probably the sticking point in the entire scenario.   Palestinians, to my knowledge, were the Israelites and were forced out of their native land all those many moons ago. In the history of the area---a blink of an eye in terms of the universe--Jews were the inhabitants and then forced out into the very unkind (mostly) Diaspora,

So a brief and concise history:

They came home. They were not welcome. They were warred against. They perservered. End of story.

They also are willing to compromise ---well, perhaps, not this leader; leaders prior to him and they were thwarted at all turns. Check the papers---Carter, Clinton, etc;

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:20 PM

The "right of return" going back over a hundred years is damn silly, if you ask me. If we tried to enforce it worldwide, it would mean the displacement of probably about 80% of all the people on the face of the Earth at this time. It would mean war in virtually every country on the planet.

It isn't important where people live. It's important that they find a way to coexist in peace and mutual tolerance and harmoniously share the places where they already are living or wherever else they choose to peacefully go.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama's astonishing speech in Cairo
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:10 PM

"As far as the right of return is concerned, how far back in time would you think it should be taken? Twenty years? One hundred? Two thousand?"

Two thousand years to cover Palestinians as well as Jews would seem a fair compromise.