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BS: Obama and Buchenwald
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Subject: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Bill H //\\ Date: 05 Jun 09 - 03:37 PM Let me see if I have this correct---Pres. Obama visits Buchenwald (along with others including Elie Wiesel). The first U S Pres. to do such a thing---and deliver another brilliant speech Pres. Reagan quite a few years back also paid a visit to a site in Germany---Bittburg Cemetary. The resting place of some SS (Waffen) troopers. Now---what does that tell us of Pres. Reagan and his priorities. Some years back Theodore Bikel starred a a most moving play (which I saw---and discussed with him in my recent interview)---The Gathering. It dealt with a man and his grandson going to Bittburg to protest Reagan's visit---the twist in the play is that Theodore Bikel's son (in the play) worked as a speech writer (fictional) for the pres. Moving and to the point. I guess we can put Reagan's pragmatism in perspective now vis a vis Obama's idealism and diplomacy. I believe history will show who is the better "communicator". Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM Well, Bill, don't be too hard on our former presidents. It's true that Obama may have been the first to visit Buchenwald, but this New York Times article describes the 2006 visit by George W. Bush to Auschwitz:
-Joe, who has visited Auschwitz and Dachau- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Bill H //\\ Date: 05 Jun 09 - 04:54 PM Good point, Joe. I surely appreciate the fnal point---or as Christine Lavin says in song (not about this)--"...what was I (he) thinking". Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Richard Bridge Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:19 PM I thought it very interesting that Obama's words (at least the clip I heard) spoke of people killed, not "Jews killed". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:41 PM Well, there were many more groups killed in the death camps - gypsies, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists, Poles... At Auschwitz, nine out of ten victims were Jews. I don't know about Buchenwald. This link will give you a good breakdown. One article I saw, expressed the opinion that Obama's speech at Buchenwald was intended to counter the attempts of Iran and others to deny the Holocaust. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 05 Jun 09 - 05:50 PM Point of fact- the Bitburg cemetary did have SS graves, amoung others. It was NOT only SS graves. In terms of other victims, there were many. http://isurvived.org/Frameset4References-3/-CC-statistics.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:10 PM I don't like Ronald Reagan's politics in the least, but I seriously doubt that he went there to honor fallen SS troopers... But how convenient to assume so if one hates Reagan! I never cease to be amazed at the utterly unscrupulous nature of the partisan mind in its endless search to vilify and condemn its chosen enemies. **** Obama is wise to visit Buchenwald at this time. As usual, he is judiciously showing respect and consideration to all sides. That is a sensible thing to do if you wish to solve old and bitter disputes and get people dealing with each other in a more cooperative fashion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jun 09 - 06:53 PM I was mistaken, Bruce and Little Hawk. It had been my impression that Reagan had laid wreaths on SS graves, and my impression was at least partly created by the vehemence of the outcry against his visit. It turns out that there were only a few SS soldiers buried among many others. I thought it was an SS cemetery. I found some interesting information on the Reagan visit: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:02 PM "Reagan was soon to embark upon a trip to West Germany, and planned to visit the Bitburg cemetery in which were buried German soldiers who had fought Allied troops during World War II. This was meant as an act of conciliation between the USA and Germany, an effort to put to rest lingering feelings of ill will over World War II. The plan misfired, however, when it was discovered that soldiers of Hitler's Waffen SS were also among the dead at Bitburg. Upon the discovery President Reagan faced a choice – offend Chancellor Kohl and the German people by refusing to visit the cemetery, or risk seeming insensitive to the victims of the notorious SS. In his address, Wiesel calmly but urgently asks Reagan to remember the victims of the Holocaust and to honour their memory by refusing to visit Bitburg. Reagan eventually did visit the cemetery, but deliberately turned his back when he neared the SS graves." The History Channel |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Bill H //\\ Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:15 PM Yes, there were nuances and, yes, Bittburg was not an entirely Waffen SS cemetery. Given the furor it would seem to me that The Great Communicator would have cancelled the visit and gone to a neutral place to commemorate the dead. I believe the word one uses is "diplomacy". It seems to me that Obama hit the right notes. As to his not mentioning Jewish victims---as one said above---there were others as well. Again--"diplomacy" and sensitivity. How wonderful to have a president that thinks before he speaks rather than speaks before he thinks---if he could think. I also grant all that the speeches are well prepared but the delivery is perfect and the final site choice is surely the speaker's. Must be tough to have every word analyzed---me, I just liked his symbolism and his visit there as opposed to a visit that also encompassed former SS people---yet, Obama referred obliquely to that (I think) when talking about victims and also that human beings (paraphrase) caused this and we all have to be vigilant not to become those kind of human beings Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:24 PM You don't refuse to visit a city somewhere because 1% of the population there are what you term as "bad" people. Ditto for a military graveyard. Reagan was between a rock and a hard place on that decision, due to the unscrupulous and utterly cynical nature of partisan politics and the press...who are always looking for something to raise hell about. I think he did the right thing to go ahead with the visit, and I don't give a hoot that I strongly disagree with his politics in general...that has no bearing on the matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: GUEST,beardedbruce Date: 05 Jun 09 - 07:39 PM Tuesday, May 7, 1985 BERGEN-BELSEN, Germany — In an emotional gesture of reconciliation, President Reagan and Chancellor Helmut Kohl recalled the most monstrous acts of World War II Sunday and told citizens of the United States and West German "the horror cannot outlast the hope." ""We are struck by the horror of it all — the monstrous, incomprehensible horror," Reagan said in remarks prepared for delivery at the site of the former Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. Both leaders' remarks were made to television audiences in both countries. Kohl, in his prepared remarks at Bergen-Belsen, said: "We bow in sorrow before the victims of murder and genocide. "The supreme goal of our political efforts is to render impossible any repetition of that systematic destruction of human life and dignity." Reagan said his visit was "a painful walk into the past" and "no one of the rest of us can fully understand the enormity of the feelings carried by the victims of these camps." While hundreds of Jews and others protested outside, Reagan briefly toured the former Nazi concentration camp, where thousands of bodies are buried under a huge mound of heather-blanketed earth. He then laid a wreath at the foot of an obelisk memorial to the dead and paused for a minute of silent tribute. "We are here because humanity refuses to accept that freedom or the spirit of man can ever be extinguished," Reagan said. "We are here to commemorate that life triumphed over the tragedy and the death of the Holocaust, overcame the suffering, the sickness, the testing, and, yes, the gassings." Stars & Stripes ................................................................. "When it ultimately came time for the May 5 visit, Reagan's angry defensiveness returned to the cool conviction that otherwise colors most of his writing. After declaring that "we must never forget & we must pledge, 'never again'" during a morning visit to Bergen-Belsen concentration camp, Reagan arrived at the Kolmeshöhe Cemetery to a large crowd of German onlookers, most of whom he believed to be approving. During a brief ceremony, an American and German general from World War II each laid a wreath at the cemetery monument. When the two unexpectedly shook hands at the close of the ceremony, Reagan called it a "truly dramatic moment." Polls later showed that 59% of Americans supported Reagan's visit — up from 49% before his trip. "I always felt it was the morally right thing to do," he wrote." ....................................................... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Joe Offer Date: 05 Jun 09 - 08:08 PM Bill Hahn says:
-Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: theman Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:35 PM It is impossible to get Biden to shut up. he just keeps talking and talking and talking. It never ends. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: robomatic Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:41 PM I appreciate Obama's mention of the Holocaust in Cairo, he laid down the facts as we know them and posed a direct challenge to those who try to undercut Israeli legitimacy based on falsifying the sufferings under the Nazis. Obama following this up with a visit to Buchenwald makes this all the stronger. And it is important to understand that the Nazis were purifying their racism by eradicating more than one 'inferior' or 'parasitic' race. As for Joe Biden, I always liked him. He seemed like quite an intelligent, go-getter type of politician when he was running his own campaign and I'm bemused by the position he's assumed since gaining the Vice Presidency. Is there a cast on the office that promulgates an automatic buffoon image (or evil prince image in the case of Cheney)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: theman Date: 06 Jun 09 - 03:46 PM I mean no offense to him. It's just that he talks a little too much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Joe Offer Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:28 PM Biden has lots of good qualities, but he can tend to be a little less that circumspect at times when he's speaking, and can end up with his foot in his mouth. I'm kinda like that at times, myself.... -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: theman Date: 06 Jun 09 - 05:49 PM He is a very strong speaker. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:18 PM Obama may not have specificaly mentioned "Jews" in his visit to Buchenwald, but the mere fact that Elie Wiesel was by his side when he made the speech clearly demonstrated what he meant. The message to the hate mongers and holocaust deniers in Tehran was unmistakable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jun 09 - 03:48 PM I especially like that he was forthright in saying that denying that the Holocaust happened was "baseless, ignorant and hateful". You can't get clearer than that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: The Borchester Echo Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:08 PM I've been to Buchenwald and what was striking was that on a bright summer's day the birdsong ceased after we walked through the gates. What the guide said was that the camp inmates were largely, though not wholly, Communists and Anarchists. It was a very chilling experience. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Ebbie Date: 07 Jun 09 - 04:50 PM Was the guide implying that because the camp inmates were largely Communists and anarchists their incarceration and extinction was OK? lol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:53 AM "But I still wonder what Reagan was thinking, when he paid his respects at the graves of those SS soldiers. -Joe, who has visited Auschwitz and Dachau- " Sorta like Obama visiting Egypt, and giving that speech, then going to Buchenwald, and saying almost the direct opposite....Methinks he plays to the crowd....Probably hoping the crowd is as good as the last person who talked to them...or something like that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: bubblyrat Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:16 AM I am pleased that Obama has seen fit to visit Buchenwald,particularly in view of his family links to its liberation. However, I believe that he did make some sort of gaffe when referring to one of the other ,equally notorious,death camps, by suggesting that it,too,was liberated by the Americans when,in fact,it was liberated by the Russians ! However, understandable mistake and I forgive him ! Well done,Obama,for socking it to those who would deny the Holocaust. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Obama and Buchenwald From: Lox Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:44 AM "The message to the hate mongers and holocaust deniers in Tehran was unmistakable." Not to mention those that are now elected representatives in England. Let the Pot shut up about the kettle for a while. "Well done,Obama,for socking it to those who would deny the Holocaust." Nice one bubblyrat. |
