BS: Election in Iran

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Aug 09 - 08:53 AM

from the Washington Post:

"The Spectacle in Tehran

Show trials in the Stalinist tradition for those who would challenge the regime's legitimacy

BORROWING A PAGE from Stalin's Russia, Iran's increasingly wobbly regime has embarked on a contemptible spectacle of show trials as a means of punishing opponents who dared question the disputed June 12 elections. The idea is not only to humiliate the more than 100 figures -- including prominent former politicians and high-ranking government officials -- who were herded into court Saturday on trumped-up accusations of threatening national security, a charge that potentially carries the death sentence. It is also to send a chilling message to others who would challenge the regime's already shaky authority. As the chief prosecutor warned, anyone who questions the legitimacy of the trials may be arrested.

Like the Moscow show trials of the 1930s, the mullahs' sham display of "justice" in Tehran over the weekend featured disoriented-looking defendants using stilted language to "confess" to seeking to destabilize the regime at the behest of Western powers. As in the Moscow show trials, incredulous colleagues, relatives and allies of the accused have watched, stunned, as people they know well have made public pronouncements in words that are clearly not their own. And as in the Moscow show trials, no one is immune: Among those accused in the rambling, manifesto-like indictment is Mohammad-Ali Abtahi, a reformist former vice president; Shirin Ebadi, the Iranian Nobel laureate; and Maziar Bahari, a Newsweek journalist who, brought out to speak to reporters covering the trial, asked forgiveness from the Iranian people for what he described as the media's supposed role in promoting a "velvet revolution."

The "confessions," almost certainly produced under duress, are meant to frighten the community of Iranian reformers, up to and including top-ranking figures such as former presidents Mohammad Khatami and Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani, as well as Mir Hossein Mousavi, the opposition candidate whose official defeat at the polls in June triggered street protests that left at least 20 dead.


Having miscalculated the mood of at least a segment of the public by prematurely pronouncing seemingly lopsided electoral results in June, the regime now may compound its error by moving directly against those opposition leaders. The fundamentalist media loyal to the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, is calling for their prosecution on charges of treason; a defiant Khatami, for his part, is publicly condemning the trials as a "show."

The trials have reinforced the image of a regime whose extremely modest tolerance for public dissent has shriveled as its own grip on power has weakened. Opposition protests continue in the streets of Tehran despite a crackdown by hard-line militias loyal to the regime. Public spats are reported between Mr. Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president who was sworn in Monday. These are dangerous days in Tehran, which only underscores the dilemma the Obama administration faces as it clings to a strategy of engaging Iran to contain its nuclear ambitions: Who is there to talk to? "

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Jul 09 - 09:16 AM

"Ahmadinejad's vice president choice rejected
      

Ali Akbar Dareini, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 20 mins ago

TEHRAN, Iran – Iran's supreme leader ordered the president, a close ally, to dismiss his controversial choice of a top deputy for making pro-Israeli remarks, the semiofficial media reported Wednesday. The move marked a rare split among the country's top conservatives.

The order is a humiliating setback for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who has strongly defended his decision to appoint Esfandiar Rahim Mashai, his son's father-in-law, as his first vice president.

Mashai angered hard-liners in 2008 when he said Iranians were "friends of all people in the world — even Israelis." Mashai was serving as vice president in charge of tourism and cultural heritage at the time. Iran has 12 vice presidents, but the first vice president is the most important because he leads Cabinet meetings in the absence of the president.

Ahmadinejad is already in a crisis over opposition claims he stole last month's presidential election from the pro-reform candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi. Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei strongly backed Ahmadinejad, who is seen as his protege, in that dispute.

"The view of the exalted leader on the removal of Mashai from the post of vice president has been notified to Ahmadinejad in writing," the semiofficial Fars news agency reported Wednesday."

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:11 PM

Rafsanjani called for national unity and relaxation of the government imprisonment of protestors and sequestration of reporters. Mousavi has appeared in public and street protests have returned to Tehran.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 07:04 PM

NPR had some in depth interviews with reporters and people from the region. Mousavi is lower key but has not given up or withheld comment. Specifically he attacked the legitimacy of the election.

The folks being interviewed have mentioned talk of a national strike.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 07:32 AM

Some of the arrested (local) Brit embassy staff are to be put on trial.
They are said to have made confessions.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8132397.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 07:15 AM

Problem is that there is a time element here. If nothing is done about Iran's getting a nuclear weapon, it's likely that Israel will attack Iran--and as you know, that would start a horrendous conflagration in that part of the world.

Having said that, I do recognize, as I've already noted, that any overt campaign against Iran will give the regime the excuse to play the "patriotism" card. I gather then from the comments that you feel the risk of this--and the resulting ability of Mr. A etc. to claim his opposition are traitors-- outweigh the risks of an attack by Israel.

My gut feeling is that we should try to find out what Mousavi and the rest of Mr. A's opposition would like the West to do--and be guided by that.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 09 - 12:52 AM

I think it won't help matters one bit for the rest of the world to persecute Iran over this, it will only encourage its government to play the "patriotic defence of Iran against foreign attack" card, and crack down harder on those Iranians who dared protest the election results.

Iran's government would be as little swayed by our criticism of their electoral practices as we would be by their criticism of our political practices. Not at all, in other words.

They don't give a damn what we think about their system. We don't give a damn what they think about our system either, so why expect it to be any different when it's going in the opposite direction?

It is the Iranians themselves who must initiate change in Iran, and in time they will. They have before. They will again.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Jul 09 - 05:43 PM

I think the prospects of 'teaching' Iran anything are as dim as teaching someone who cuts you off in traffic to drive better by giving them the finger.

The Iranians seem to care deeply about Democracy, and I think they are well aware that they have been poorly served by their existing constitution (meaning that in the British sense).

I have no idea what an attempt by the West to withhold gasoline will do to make anything or anyone better.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:23 PM

Any thoughts on the proposed gasoline embargo, especially the factors I've mentioned?

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 01:08 PM

Yeah, you can't let your weirs get out of date!

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: heric
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:23 PM

Which caused me to go read the Magna Carta and now wonder - did they dismantle all weirs throughout England as promised, so that all of the existing ones (no less than six on the River Lee) post-dated 1297 and were therefore acceptable?

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 09 - 11:43 AM

If you really really really want to hurt the perpetrators of this election nonsense in Iran, how about translating the Magna Carta and the US Constitution into Farsi and making it available. (pauses to think over possibly eliminating that bit where slaves are counted as 3/5ths of a freeman)

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 10:11 PM

Proposal I've seen several places is that the US (and West in general) start an embargo on gasoline against Iran. Iran has lots of oil but very few refineries--vulnerable to such an embargo.

1)   Would that hurt the general population but not the ruling theocracy?

2)   Would it be effective?--obviously Russia, China, and some other non-Western powers would not participate.

3) Would it enable the regime to play the "patriotism" card--close ranks against the evil West?

Thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 01:38 PM

Yeltsin also was a crazy drunk. I just don't think Mousavi has it in him.

Maybe he can do an angry Stalin, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Jun 09 - 07:11 AM

Iran: Desperately Seeking Yeltsin

By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, June 26, 2009

Iran today is a revolution in search of its Yeltsin. Without leadership, demonstrators will take to the street only so many times to face tear gas, batons and bullets. They need a leader like Boris Yeltsin: a former establishment figure with newly revolutionary credentials and legitimacy, who stands on a tank and gives the opposition direction by calling for the unthinkable -- the abolition of the old political order.

Right now the Iranian revolution has no leader. As this is written, opposition candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi has not appeared in public since June 18. And the Khamenei-Ahmadinejad regime has shown the requisite efficiency and ruthlessness at suppressing widespread unrest. Its brutality has been deployed intelligently. The key is to atomize the opposition. Start with the most sophisticated methods to block Internet and cellphone traffic, thanks to technology provided by Nokia Siemens Networks. Allow the more massive demonstrations to largely come and go -- avoiding Tiananmen-style wholesale bloodshed -- but disrupt the smaller ones with street-side violence and rooftop snipers, the perfect instrument of terror. Death instant and unseen, the kind that only the most reckless and courageous will brave.

Terror visited by invisible men. From rooftops by day. And by night, swift and sudden raids that pull students out of dormitories, the wounded out of hospitals, for beatings and disappearances.

For all our sentimental belief in the ultimate triumph of those on the "right side of history," nothing is inevitable. This second Iranian revolution is on the defensive, even in retreat. To recover, it needs mass, because every dictatorship fears the moment when it gives the order to the gunmen to shoot at the crowd. If they do (Tiananmen), the regime survives; if they don't (Romania's Ceausescu), the dictators die like dogs. The opposition needs a general strike and major rallies in the major cities -- but this time with someone who stands up and points out the road ahead.

Desperately seeking Yeltsin. Does this revolution have one? Or to put it another way, can Mousavi become Yeltsin?

President Obama's worst misstep during the Iranian upheaval occurred early on when he publicly discounted the policy differences between Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Mousavi.

True, but that overlooked two extremely important points. First, while Mousavi himself was originally only a few inches to Ahmadinejad's left on the political spectrum -- being hand-picked by the ruling establishment precisely for his ideological reliability -- Mousavi's support was not restricted to those whose views matched his. He would have been the electoral choice of everyone to his left, a massive national constituency -- liberals, liberalizers, secularists, monarchists, radicals and visceral opponents of the entire regime -- that dwarfs those who shared his positions, as originally held.

Moreover, Mousavi's positions have changed, just as he has. He is far different today from the Mousavi who began this electoral campaign.

Revolutions are dynamic, fluid. It is true that two months ago there was little difference between Ahmadinejad and Mousavi. But that day is long gone. Revolutions outrun their origins. And they transform their leaders.

Mikhail Gorbachev and Yeltsin both began as orthodox party regulars. They subsequently evolved together into reformers. Then came the revolution. Gorbachev could not shake himself from the system. Yeltsin rose up and engineered its destruction.

In the 1980s, Mousavi was Ayatollah Khomeini's prime minister, a brutal enforcer of orthodox Islamism. Twenty years later, he started out running for president advocating little more than cosmetic moderation. But then the revolutionary dynamic began: The millions who rallied to his cause -- millions far to his left -- began to radicalize him. The stolen election radicalized him even more. Finally, the bloody suppression of his followers led him to make statements just short of challenging the legitimacy of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the very foundations of the regime. The dynamic continues: The regime is preparing the basis for Mousavi's indictment (for sedition), arrest, even possible execution. The prospect of hanging radicalizes further.

As Mousavi hovers between Gorbachev and Yeltsin, between reformer and revolutionary, between figurehead and leader, the revolution hangs in the balance. The regime may neutralize him by arrest or even murder. It may buy him off with offers of safety and a sinecure. He may well prefer to let this cup pass from his lips.

But choose he must, and choose quickly. This is his moment, and it is fading rapidly. Unless Mousavi rises to it, or another rises in his place, Iran's democratic uprising will end not as Russia 1991, but as China 1989.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: heric
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:39 PM

Yes you did. You read it 20 Jun 09 @ 02:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 04:29 PM

Wolfgang Thanks for that posting about Benford's law. I had heard about that over the radio but I hadn't read it. It does suggest to me that if we believe the old saw:

Figures Don't Lie, but Liars Can Figure

we can only expect future vote rigging to be more sophisticated.

I am thinking that we have witnessed dangerous stupidity, or else, as is very likely, there are a lot of internal facts we are not yet aware of: primarilly, on one level the Iranian officials very stupidly gave themselves away because they simply had not patience for putting up a front of due process: They rushed the election results into the mediasphere before voting was done in all time zones, they put out a patently unbelievable set of voting figures.

But the chief stupidity is: They didn't have to do any of it. Ahmadinejad is not the main power, he is mostly a front for the religious clerics who get to call the real shots in the Iranian system. And most importantly, Moussavei is no gladsome liberal in favor of major reform. He is an experienced Iranian pol with job experience and more than a few bodies behind his resume. What was in Iran's interest was a democratic succession, a display within the country and for all the world that the people had a voice and were behind their government. By their own foolishness they have lost this.

And, Obama's policy of 'less is more' is perfect to these events. He is not drawing attention from the self-exposure of the Iranian government, despite being invited to do so by McCain and some of the leading Republicans, (and Joe Lieberman).

This ain't over.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: pdq
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 03:32 PM

"Seems that this subject has been driven off the front pages by Michael Jackson's death!

... it's a dramatic demonstration of the ephemeral and basically moronic nature of our mass media, isn't it?"

This abuse of the airwaves simply makes it clear how bad our Western news media are.

They are this bad all the time but it takes a special event like this to make the shortcomings obvious.

It is also painfully obvious when a reporter is trying to deal with anything in science.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 08:40 AM

A powerful interview with the doctor who attended to Neda as she lay dying: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8119713.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 09 - 08:07 AM

Seems that this subject has been driven off the front pages by Michael Jackson's death!

That must be pretty annoying for the guys at US State Department, I guess, and also for those people protesting government crackdowns and election fraud in Iran, but it's a dramatic demonstration of the ephemeral and basically moronic nature of our mass media, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 12:51 PM

charged to receive a body--it's been called a "bullet fee"-- for the bullet used to kill your son or daughter--iand definitely confirmed.   This news was in the WSJ, among other places.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Neil D
Date: 27 Jun 09 - 12:12 PM

Despite a heavy police presence, hundreds of people on Thursday lit candles at the burial site of Neda Agha Soltan in her memory and in remembrance of all the martyrs.
The Islamic Republic is preventing people from burying their loved ones in the family section of Behesht-e Zahra. It forces them to bury their relatives in a separate field.

From
Revolutionary Road

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 02:27 PM

Iran is a long way away from a nuclear bomb. Israel has one. The question I have is would Israel use it? At this point, Iran is in chaos. They are not about to declare war on anyone.

Stats on how many are killed during different periods of history are unverifiable.
There are for example no reliable stats on how many Iraqis have been killed since the Occupation.

The clerics and the Shah both offered brutal dictatorships. One was an American puppet,
the other a religious fanatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 11:31 AM

One should think they (Iranians and all others) are getting better at election fraud with time, but they aren't or they just don't care because they don't expect anyone to believe them anyway.

The numbers for Ahmadinejad violate Benford's law just as one can expect if they are made up without the help of a computer and a sound knowledge of the distributions of the digits involved.

Benford's law anomalies in the 2009 Iranian presidential elections

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: heric
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:58 AM

Thanks for that blog bobad, which led me to this list of other recommended blogs:

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1028777/Coverage-of-Iran-protests-goes-online

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 09 - 10:39 AM

Saeed Valadbaygi "Families are charged 5-14 thousand dollars to receive the bodies of their loved ones.They also need to sign a waver that they won't sue the police or other attackers.In a written undertaking, they need to say Mousavi is the reason & we have no complaints against police."

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 12:29 PM

Iran's Mousavi defies crackdown

Iran protest leader Mir Hossein Mousavi says he holds those behind alleged "rigged" elections responsible for bloodshed during recent protests.

In a defiant statement on his website, he called for future protests to be in a way which would not "create tension."

He complained of "complete" restrictions on his access to people and a crackdown on his media group.

A BBC correspondent in Tehran says the statement is a direct challenge to Iran Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khamenei.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8118783.stm

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 07:48 AM

No, I don't have a source for this--but if anybody is interested, I can find it.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 07:47 AM

I've read that in checking hospitals someone has come up with a figure of 150 people killed in the course of the protests over the election--so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 07:45 AM

Date: Wednesday 24th June 2009

The following email in Farsi we received today (Wednesday 24th june). It is written by a doctor from �Rasul Akram� hospital in Tehran who says that some people were killed not only by one bullet as they found two or three bullets in some bodies, close to one another, showing that shooters used barrage shooting against people and not only a single shot. A 68 year old man had 3 bullets inhis body, two on his left shoulder and one in the left side of his stomach. The doctors of the �Rasul Akram�hospital say they had been faced with 38 people killed during last week�s protests. Apparently, police took the corpse of the dead bodies out from the hospital and carried them away by truck. Most of their families still do not know if their children have been killed. Besides, among the corpse there were some 15, 16 years old kids.

According to the email, the crew of the hospital protested in the street next to the hospital giving out the information about the violence to the people. The photos attached are from this demonstration which appears to have taken place earlier this week.

Regards
-Where s my vote?

http://shooresh1917.blogspot.com/2009/06/letter-from-tehran-hospital.html

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 07:36 AM

Let's be realistic.   The amazing thing is not that many Moslems are silent on the outrages happening in Iran, but that after 30 years the anti-West (and therefore anti-Israel also) Moslem wall is cracking.   Educated and intelligent Moslems are starting to realize, in large numbers--as the column ( please cite the exact source from now on) just posted points out--that being anti-West and anti-Israel is not the alpha and omega of political consciousness.

It is in fact patently absurd to expect mea culpas from the Moslem world for excesses committed by the Iranian revolution 30 years ago.   After all, consider what happened to courageous statesmen like Sadat when he dared to make peace with Israel. And consider what is now happening in Iran to those who do question just one diktat of the theological state.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:53 AM

"Dictatorship by clerics is not more acceptable because its torture and beatings are committed in the name of God. "

My understanding is that there were more killed by the ruling clerics in the first year after the Revoulution than in the entire reign of the Shah.

But I hear a lot of silence on that, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 25 Jun 09 - 06:51 AM

The Sounds of Silence on Iran


By Mona Eltahawy
Thursday, June 25, 2009

Do you hear the silence from the Arab world over events in Iran?

Let's start with Arab leaders, who are experts at vote rigging -- if they hold elections at all. What could they possibly say about the Iranian election, or the allegations of vote fraud, without sounding hypocritical? Nor would they rush to congratulate longtime nemesis Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the leader of a regional rival with nuclear ambitions.

The Arabs are quiet, but their silence is surely tempered with discomfort. The demographics of most Arab nations mirror those of Iran: The majority of Arabs are young. It's likely that many young Arabs watching thousands of Iranians demanding to be heard, Arabs who are suffocating under dictators of their own, thought, "That's me."

For some, the silence is the sound of despair, for in Iran we are seeing the implosion of the politics of cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Let's look at the Arab world's legacy: A succession of Arab leaders were known simply for standing up to America and Israel. It did not matter what they did to their own people, the human rights violations, the mass graves, the stifling of the media and most forms of expression. Standing up to the United States and Israel was enough.

In that sense, Ahmadinejad is a familiar figure. And Saddam Hussein is gone. Libya's Moammar Gaddafi has gone from U.S. foe to friend. The region is full of U.S.-supported dictators, from President Hosni Mubarak of Egypt to the kings of Jordan and Saudi Arabia.


Standing up to America and Israel fell to non-state entities such as Hamas and Hezbollah, and their money trail leads to Iran. Ahmadinejad is simply the latest leader whom Arabs have lionized and forgiven for cutting off our nose to spite our face.

Little did the repressions visited upon Iranians matter, even though the hardships they endured were often mirrored in Arab cities cheering on Ahmadinejad. Iran supported the Palestinians, and Ahmadinejad regularly railed at the United States and threatened Israel.

But with thousands in Ahmadinejad's own country filling the streets, effectively saying that it's not enough to simply stand up to America and Israel, what now for those Arabs who lionize Ahmadinejad? Especially now that George W. Bush is gone? Where is the sympathy or support for the plight of the Iranians?

Silence.

That silence is the sound of hearts breaking over the dream of political Islam. When the 1979 revolution swept away the U.S.-backed shah and his injustices, Iran held out the tantalizing mirage of rule by Islam, even for countries that were not majority Shiite. Thirty years later, Iranians are protesting not a secular, U.S.-backed dictator but a system run by clerics who claim to uphold democracy as long as its candidates are given the regime's stamp of approval.

What's happening in Iran is not about the United States or Israel. It's not about Ahmadinejad or Mir Hossein Mousavi. It's not even about the poor or the rich in Iran. The demonstrations are about people who feel their will and voice have been disregarded. In Egypt, it's our secular dictator, in power for almost 28 years, who disregards our will. In Iran, it's a clerical regime in power for 30 years, hiding behind God.

Dictatorship by clerics is not more acceptable because its torture and beatings are committed in the name of God.

This must be especially difficult for political Islamic organizations such as the Muslim Brotherhood, which congratulated Ahmadinejad on his "victory" and yet whose generational disagreements and divisions mirror those in Iran: A young generation of Muslim brothers and sisters has over the past few years challenged the Brotherhood's aging leadership on issues such as prohibiting female and Christian leaders.

That aging leadership gave the young Muslims the very undemocratic choice of shutting up or leaving.

How do we know? The same way we've known about much of Iran's strife -- through blogs and social networking Web sites such as Facebook and Twitter. These days, most of the noise in the Arab world is online.

Online, you will hear bloggers connecting repression in Iran and Arab countries. Egyptian blogger Wael Abbas, known for exposing police brutality on YouTube, was quick to send Twitter alerts that Iran's clerics, like the Mubarak regime, used plainclothes thugs to terrorize demonstrators. Online, you will hear young Arabs express envy over the huge Iranian demonstrations in the face of government crackdowns. Online, Arabs will expose U.S. hypocrisy and ask what happened to U.S. support for peaceful demonstrators when they were beaten and dragged off Cairo streets in 2005 and 2006.

Online, Arabs argue over the politics of cutting off our nose to spite our face, challenging each other to support Iranian democrats despite Ahmadinejad's taunts at America and Israel.


Tired of the Arab world's embarrassing silence over Iran? Go online. Iranian blogs are older and more established than many in the Arab world, but the Web is giving voice to the voiceless and shattering the silence.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:14 PM

Re: the poster who alleged that Israel, before the recent Iranian push for nuclear power, intended to destroy Iran:   still no evidence.   Not exactly surprising, since there is no such evidence.

Not only is the idea that Israel intended--before the recent push for nuclear power--to destroy Iran 100% pure drivel, but it is pernicious, i.e. anti-Semitic drivel, by implying that Israel is the ultimate warmonger of that area of the world, a belief that though fondly held by some on the Left, is nonetheless a libelous canard.

And I'm not the only one who recognizes this:   another description, as I recall was "beyond hogwash".





Now, having disposed of that absurd allegation regarding Israel, on to the actual topic of the thread:

It's truly amazing how many theories there area about what is likely to happen as a result of the Iranian election.

WSJ today 24 June 20009:   According to the head of the Moslem Brotherhood's political wing in Egypt (of all people):   "The Iranians have failed in their attempts to export the Islamic revolution for the past 30 years, but now maybe they can export their model of peaceful protests.   This would be very dangerous to the Arab regimes."

Again WSJ: The images of "beating and killing unarmed protesters, including women....have punctured the Islamic Republic's carefully constructed image as a champion of the oppressed masses".

A columnist states, without much support as far as I can tell, that since Mr. A's election has been called "divine" by Khameinei, and Mr. A has accused Rafsanjani and his children of corruption, that Rafsanjani and his children would have to leave Iran. But instead, according to the columnist, he is "reportedly trying to recruit a majority of the Assembly of Experts to remove Khameinei or at least force him to order new elections".

This columnist predicts that "even if he remains in office, Ahmadinejad cannot really function as president. For one thing the parliament is unlikely to confirm his ministerial appointments and he cannot govern without them. If Khamenei is not removed by the Assembly of Experts and Ahmadinejad is not removed by Khamenei, the government will continue to be paralyzed."

I think he has his rose-colored glasses on too tight.

In fact, elsewhere in the WSJ it's noted that there is "a concern in Washington that Moscow and Beijing could cite Iran's political instability as reasons not to enforce new economic sanctions on Iran."

No way anybody can predict with any certainty what the outcome will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: DannyC
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 06:44 PM

This must be the Armenian original:

sari siroun yar

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: DannyC
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 06:32 PM

Lyrics (for song from link I posted @ 7:45PM June 23rd, '09) were provided on youtube as follows:

Translation:

The winter has come to an end, the spring has blossomed.
The red flower of the sun has risen once again, the night has escaped.
The mountains are covered with tulips, the tulips are awake.
They are planting sunshine in the mountains, flower by flower by flower.

In the mountains, his heart is awake, he is bringing flowers and bread and will defend
In his heart, he has a forest of stars.
His lips wear a smile of light.
His heart is filled with the flames of emotion.
His voice is like a spring.
His memory is like a deer in the forest of light

***********************************************

Another youtube contributor says the song is adapted from an Armenian song... Don't know what else to say about the ongoing killing.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 06:23 PM

Anyone who has ever been nonchalent about freedom, take a good look. This is how it has been achieved for you/us. One head bashed in at a time.

And don't think the only problem is huge WMDs etc.   All it takes is a few people with axes. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 04:51 PM

Salon.com has made available an E Mail from Iran with claims of police (or beseej?) interrogation and torture of a teenager who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, apparently.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 04:36 PM

Looking for any signs of hope, not because I feel hopeful, but because it's as well to do so - I see that Khamenei has given the "Guardian Council" an extra five days to come up with a ruling on how far the admitted "irregularities" should be taken into account. I can still envisage a run-off election (as opposed to a re-run of the election) as an way out of the corner. (But it may be too late for that...)

And picking out the British as the target for denunciation and expulsions strikes me as possibly being a way of avoiding tangling with the new US administration. Denouncing the monkey rather than the organ-grinder, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: heric
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 03:56 PM

n.b. read up on Ayatollah Mohammad Taghi Mesbah-Yazdi (Ayatollah Mesbah)

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 03:05 PM

:( Some captured ringleaders and other activists are on Iranian television recanting their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Peace
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 02:44 PM

"Iran has crossed the threshold. Revolution is imminent."

Unfortunately, so is slaughter.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 02:43 PM

Iran has crossed the threshold. Revolution is imminent.

Remember that the Shah did similar things.

The US has no moral credentials, now, with which to involve itself.

The British did this in India before they were deposed. The echoes of 1968...
"The whole world is watching".

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:47 PM

Doug - I'm doing great, thanks. ;-) Very glad to be in Canada and not in Iran. How about you?

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:32 PM

From The Guardian Live blog:

An account from a medical student inside Iran. I am trying to find out where the medical student is.

    I only want to speak about what I have witnessed. I am a medical student. There was chaos at the trauma section in one of our main
    hospitals. Although by decree, all riot-related injuries were supposed
    to be sent to military hospitals, all other hospitals were filled to
    the rim. Last night, nine people died at our hospital and another 28
    had gunshot wounds. All hospital employees were crying till dawn. They
    (government) removed the dead bodies on back of trucks, before we were
    even able to get their names or other information. What can you even
    say to the people who don't even respect the dead. No one was allowed
    to speak to the wounded or get any information from them. This morning
    the faculty and the students protested by gathering at the lobby of
    the hospital where they were confronted by plain cloths anti-riot
    militia, who in turn closed off the hospital and imprisoned the staff.

    The extent of injuries are so grave, that despite being one of the most staffed emergency rooms, they've asked everyone to stay and help--I'm sure it will even be worst tonight. What can anyone say in face of all these atrocities? What can you say to the family of the 13 year-old boy who
    died from gunshots and whose dead body then disappeared?

    This issue is not about cheating (election) anymore. This is not about stealing votes anymore. The issue is about a vast injustice inflected on the people. They've put a baton in the hand of every 13-14 year old to smash the faces of "the bunches who are less than dirt" (government is calling the people who are uprising dried-up torn and weeds). This is what sickens me from dealing with these issues. And from those who shut their eyes and close their ears and claim the riots are in opposition of the government and presidency!! No! The people's complaint is against the egregious injustices committed against the people.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:19 PM

CNN just interviewed someone who was at Baharestan Square. She tells of a massacre and a massive assault by policemen. The witness was hysterical and speaking very fast.

    "I was going towards Baharestan with my friend. This was everyone, not just supporters of one candidate or another. All of my friends, they were going to Baharestan to express our opposition to these killings and demanding freedom. The black-clad police stopped everyone. They emptied the buses that were taking people there and let the private cars go on. We went on until Ferdowsi then all of a sudden some 500 people with clubs came out of [undecipherable] mosque and they started beating everyone. They tried to beat everyone on [undecipherable] bridge and throwing them off of the bridge. And everyone also on the sidewalks. They beat a woman so savagely that she was drenched in blood and her husband, he fainted. They were beating people like hell. It was a massacre. They were trying to beat people so they would die. they were cursing and saying very bad words to everyone. This was exactly a massacre... I don't know how to describe it."

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:19 PM

I just hope the institutions of due process in Iran can sort this out, other than having to put credence in a theoretical reconstitution after what, after all, was a hard debated and actual election with real paper ballots and everything. I'm sure the election officials who created the ballots, and the judicial officials to whom these matters are appealled, can review the circumstances and apply the laws of the land.

After all, it worked for US.

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: Stringsinger
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:03 PM

Charlie, no liberals are actively challenging any election these days. If so, we would all
be in the streets.

There are those in congress (a minority) that reflect a liberal or progressive point-of-view
but they are not being heard on the media with exception of Amy Goodman, Rachel Madow and Keith Olbermann.

The election in Iran is patently corrupt. The people have spoken about this.
At the least, there may be some change although I don't know if it's the kind you can
believe in.

The US needs to stay out of it. We did enough damage with the Shah.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 12:01 PM

"Vanak, tajrish and enghelab square are in very bad situations, the basij and riot police are paced every 10 feet and they react quickly to any stoppage and arrest right on the spot> Fighting in Vanak Sq, Tajrish sq, Azadi Sq - now>In Baharestan we saw militia with axe choping people like meat - blood everywhere - like butcher>About 10 special forces vans are manoeuvring in Sharak-e-Gharb"

Subject: RE: BS: Election in Iran
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 09 - 11:53 AM

Update from an on-site blogger:

"the military plain clothes have entered the crowd with high speed on bikes, they are beating people with cable and batons, almost everyone in the crowd is injured, there is blood everywhere,,,"