BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes

Subject: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Jun 09 - 08:42 PM

Jane Mayer, the diligent reporter, interviewed Leon Panetta, the new head of the CIA for this week's New Yorker. The whole article is a dreary exercise in institutional in-fighting, continuing cover-ups, and more revelations about disgusting American practices:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/06/22/090622fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: heric
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:23 AM

My read on the article is that everything is proceeding apace very nicely. Revelations by American government officials about disgusting American practices is a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:32 AM

BUT, no prosecutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 01:26 AM

If you folks are so anxious to smell blood, why don't you arrange a vacation this summer in Afghanistan?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 01:30 AM

Lots of my countrymen and women are already there. In the view of the Canadian Armed Forces, they fuckin' well better NOT be using torture.

Smell blood Doug? You mean like Guantanamo? Thought your country was above that shit. Guess not.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:18 AM

Ain't much Douggie's above, Bruce. The country may be another story.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 09:30 AM

'Tis a beautiful sunny Spring day - another great occasion for gratuitous Yank bashing.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:13 AM

gratuitous Yank bashing.

Say what? So, the perpetrators of war crimes should not be prosecuted, Art?

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:23 AM

How in the world could any effort to bring war criminals to justice, even if it's only in the form of posting links to relevant articles, be considered "Yank bashing"? The mind boggles.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:25 AM

...and even more pertinent, how in the world could it be considered gratuitous? No effort to bring war criminals to justice is ever gratuitous.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:18 AM

Happy to bash American, the British, the Canadians -- hey the rest of NATO it appears -- truth is no respecter of countries.....

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:19 AM

There's nothing to be gained and a whole lot to lose by trying to prosecute Bush officials for war crimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: heric
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:30 AM

Very tricky thing to proceed upon. It's not in Obama's job description to rip the nation's guts out with brash righteousness, and this subject matter has the volatility to do that. There's an awful lot to lose, though, by inadequate follow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:38 AM

According to international law, it is the responsibility of the US government to investigate and prosecute US war crimes and those responsible for them. As the president of the US, Obama is one of those who is responsible for this. That makes it a part of his job description.

If we don't adhere to our obligations under international law, we are putting ourselves above the law, and that renders the law irrelevant. That outcome is the one with the most disastrous consequences for both the US as well as the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 12:33 PM

There's nothing to be gained and a whole lot to lose by trying to prosecute Bush officials for war crimes.

Right you are, Rig - lets just give 'em all the Nobel Peace Prize like they did with my favorite un-prosecuted war crimilal ol' Henry Kissinger.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Paul Burke
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 02:17 PM

There's nothing to be gained and a whole lot to lose by trying to prosecute Bush officials for war crimes.

What can the US lose? Reputation?

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 05:58 PM

Like I said. Over and over again. There is no purpose to pointing to yet another article about the same subject, and discussing the same thing again in a forum that has no way to influence anything. Write your Congressman - I did.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 10:33 PM

LOSE??
MONEY!!! - It would cost a fortune to prosecute all those criminals. Add that to the cost of the wars and other gross foolishness we pay for... I prefer to let them wallow in their guilt. We know who they are. Sure, the U.S. has been committing war crimes as long as it has existed as an entity - and before that they were killing off the original residents of this once beautiful land. When will it ever end? "Where there is love there is life." Gandhi
Prosecution may let the truth be known but it is closer to revenge and gains us nothing. I believe there are better ways to get the truth out - and it is being done.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:08 PM

Prosecution may let the truth be known but it ... gains us nothing.

It gains us being seen as enforcing the law as written. Or have we given up being a nation of laws?

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 17 Jun 09 - 11:20 PM

I do not think that is the most important thing, Greg. When we have starving children, and we do, it seems to me that spending money on prosecuting known criminals rather than doing something about our social problems is just adding another crime to those already committed.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 12:44 AM

It will end when we start holding those who do things like that responsible. (!)

It sure as hell won't end if we don't!

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 08:27 AM

...spending money on prosecuting known criminals rather than doing something about our social problems...


Suggestion: You would think the richest country in the world could do both.......

{ If you want to save more than a few bucks, ditch the failed "war on drugs", for example.}

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 11:52 AM

I think we are well on the way to discovering that Obama's talk is more radical than his actions. He's what used to be called "a trimmer". Find a mid-course. Which would be alright if both ends were as powerful as each other -- but when you have a rightwing that has bludgeoned everyone into submission for many years, compromise is a kind of capitulation (the banking regulation issue is another one he fudged on yesterday. He's not really going to do anything serious).

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 02:43 PM

I would happily ditch the "war on drugs" which has worked about as well as prohibition.

If the U.S. has to borrow money from China, is it really the richest country in the world?

I do believe that it is not necessary to prosecute people in order to hold them responsible. I keep in mind that the pilot of the plane which dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, committed suicide - on the 40th anniversary. He recognized his responsibility. That is good enough for me. We recognize the responsibility of the more recent criminals. I believe it is something they will also recognize and have to live with.

This "richest country in the world" is in enough debt and has more than enough other problems needing attention.

I also believe Obama is doing the best he can with the reality of what he has been given.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:16 PM

None of the policy makers and high level government people in the US who have committed war crimes in the history of the US have been held responsible. That's why our government perceives itself to be able to continue to do these things with impunity. The reason it perceives itself to be able to do things with impunity, is because it has impunity, and has always had impunity. That's what has to change if these things are going to stop.


Impunity

'Impunity means "exemption from punishment or loss".[1] In the international law of human rights, it refers to the failure to bring perpetrators of human rights violations to justice and, as such, itself constitutes a denial of the victims' right to justice and redress. Impunity is especially common in countries that lack a tradition of the rule of law, suffer from corruption or that have entrenched systems of patronage, or where the judiciary is weak or members of the security forces are protected by special jurisdictions or immunities. The amended Set of Principles for the Protection and Promotion of Human Rights Through Action to Combat Impunity, submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights on 8 February 2005, defines impunity as:

    "the impossibility, de jure or de facto, of bringing the perpetrators of violations to account – whether in criminal, civil, administrative or disciplinary proceedings – since they are not subject to any inquiry that might lead to their being accused, arrested, tried and, if found guilty, sentenced to appropriate penalties, and to making reparations to their victims."[2]

The First Principle of that same document states that:

    "Impunity arises from a failure by States to meet their obligations to investigate violations; to take appropriate measures in respect of the perpetrators, particularly in the area of justice, by ensuring that those suspected of criminal responsibility are prosecuted, tried and duly punished; to provide victims with effective remedies and to ensure that they receive reparation for the injuries suffered; to ensure the inalienable right to know the truth about violations; and to take other necessary steps to prevent a recurrence of violations."

Truth and reconciliation commissions are frequently established by nations emerging from periods marked by human rights violations – coups d'état, military dictatorships, civil wars, etc. – in order to cast light on the events of the past. While such mechanisms can assist in the ultimate prosecution of crimes and punishment of the guilty, they have often been criticised for perpetuating impunity by enabling violators to seek protection of concurrently adopted amnesty laws.'


Once again, I would reiterate, that according to international laws to which the US is a signatory, it is a violation of those laws for the US government to not investigate and prosecute the people responsible for war crimes and crimes like torture. If we do not uphold our obligations under international law, we are putting ourselves above the law, which has the effect of rendering the law meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 03:43 PM

Yes.

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:07 PM

Eichmann felt no guilt or remorse for his actions. He expressed none. I am happy that piece of human garbage wound up on the wrong end of a rope--which in his case was the right end.

'He was found guilty on all counts [there were more than a dozen counts at his trial], sentenced to death and hanged at Ramleh Prison, May 31, 1962.

A fellow Nazi reported Eichmann once said "he would leap laughing into the grave because the feeling that he had five million people on his conscience would be for him a source of extraordinary satisfaction."'

Does any sane person think the world lost a great or good man when he was hanged?

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:44 PM

Carol C: None of the policy makers and high level government people in the US who have committed war crimes in the history of the US have been held responsible.

I may have mentioned that earlier on myself. I certainly agree with it. I also agree with the fact that the U.S. fairly consistently ignores international law. And I have always believed that this is unacceptable.

I am merely maintaining that we have a great deal else to clean up AND, I may be delusional, but I hope/believe this current administration will make appropriate moves, as possible, toward each of our goals.

Peace: I do not approve capital punishment! Nor do I approve of any other sort of murder. That, however, is not the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 04:59 PM

That said, we should lay down and die when people like Eichmann try it again?

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 05:01 PM

I'm sorry, but there is no money to investigate and prosecute anyone for war crimes. All of the allotted WPF (Wrongdoer Prosecution Funding) was previously spent years ago to determine if and when Bill Clinton got a blowjob. Now THAT was important!

Once again, I love what this country could be and I hate what it is.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:48 PM

There is nothing this current administration can do to prevent these kinds of things from happening again if it ignores its obligations under international law. Upholding its obligations under international law is not optional. It is mandatory, both under international law, as well as our own laws and our Constitution.

If the present administration doesn't investigate and prosecute those responsible for our torture program under the Bush administration, it will be setting a precedent for future administrations that it is ok to torture. The only way to prevent future administrations from doing things like this is to investigate and prosecute the ones responsible under the Bush administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Latest on Obama Fudging Torture Crimes
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jun 09 - 06:49 PM

Indeed.