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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,baz parkes Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:01 PM that's just reminded me of Buster Mottram, another crap Brit tennis player who brought even more fascism to SW London Probably not as much as Buster Bloodvessel,tho Baz |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Penny S. Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:09 PM I've been reading this through with various dire feelings, and not intending to communicate with either Chantry School or here. I've taken time out to write to the BBC History magazine which, in the July issue, has published a dodgy letter about it being better for the far right to co-opt Anglo-Saxon tradition than for bleeding-heart liberals to concel our real English past for eternity. And then I've returned. Until this thread I was not really aware about the border versus Cotswold morris situation. I may well have seen border at Rochester. I think I did, and I think I noticed black people watching without concern. But it wasn't something I thought about as an issue to be investigated from a school point of view. And that's me as a person who will go out of her way to watch morris. My mental image, founded in Folkestone in the fifties, and reinforced by the morris sides which have visited our school in Dartford, is of whites, and baldrics. I can easily imagine a head, who has a great deal of other stuff going on at the moment, not having the time to investigate something that she did not know needed to be investigated, but thinking it would be great to have a morris side along to compare and contrast with the Sikh folk dance. (I distinctly remember bells, and sticks, and two lines of dancers - and definitely not white costumes.) If the booking were done over the phone, on the strength of their being local, the obvious photograph would be missed. We don't know how the contact was made. Not sll local sides have web sites - searching might have been time consuming. Chantry has been, in the past, the base for the English as a second language teaching in the area, and may still be. It is a school where ethnicity and associated issues will be something that cannot be ignored. I think it is unfair to criticise the head for the whole of the situation. I did see a report that the leaving off the blackface was discussed with the side, and no agreement could be reached. The situation doesn't seem to have helped anyone, but I think that too much criticism with too little information will have done more harm to both the school and any morris side in the vicinity than leaving it alone whould have done. No-one seems to have explained just how the story hit the press. Someone told them, and for some reason. Someone who knew about it. Who benefits from it, and are we helping them? Penny |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:22 PM It's highly unlikely that the school would have approached the press, which leads one to suspect that it was someone associated with Motley Morris who thought it would be a jolly jape to tip off the media with a 'political correctness gone mad' story. In which case it's something of an own goal, really. As has been said, as an advertisement for trad arts it's about as welcome as a BNP meeting. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Les in Chorlton Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:33 PM I thoroughly enjoyed a Border side dancing in Chorlton, Manchester, last night. They were very dramatic and exciting and the music was excellent. A range of colours on the face, lots of pinky brown but no "Blackface" Lots of people watched, some appeared to be of Asian and of African origin but that may not have been. Passers by stopped and at the last venue, the far famed Beech, the crowd were encouraged to dance. Quite a few did and some appeared to be of African origin. The side did a brilliant job, enthusing and explaining what to do. It might have been possible in this situation for someone who supports "Blackface" to explain the 'disguise' origin and maybe be even to explain and justify the 'Minstrelsy' influence. But what could be said to someone who is not convinced? What if they simply say 'I find white people painting there faces black and dancing in public offensive? Last night an old English custom did what it does best. It entertained and surprised a lot of people, quite a few of which were Mancunians who originated somewhere else. That's what all good "Folk Art" does. Please don't offend people for no good reason. Best wishes L in C Off to the Beech for some songs |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Royston Date: 01 Jul 09 - 12:33 PM PennyS, The situation doesn't seem to have helped anyone, but I think that too much criticism with too little information will have done more harm to both the school and any morris side in the vicinity than leaving it alone whould have done. Quoted for the truth! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jul 09 - 01:00 PM I agree with Derek Schofield when he wrote "I found the message from Rick H, the Motley dancer, offensive", referring, I assume, to "Unfortunately it also has a large Chav/Pikey community and has recently started getting a lot of Eastern Europeans and a few Afro Caribbean residents." And in the light of that quote I'm also inclined to agree with Derek in thinking maybe the school head may have actually got it right, if that post actually did come from a member of Motley Morris. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 01:43 PM I did see a report that the leaving off the blackface was discussed with the side, and no agreement could be reached. If that's correct I almost agree with the Villan. Motley Morris cocked up, and Morris teams may well suffer for their action. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Les in Chorlton Date: 01 Jul 09 - 01:54 PM Well I guess they need to keep to the disguise tradition so we will never know who they are: Peter Hargreaves (Squire) 01634 716751 Jim Snelling (Secretary) 07766 237564 Simon Ford (Foreman) 07793 627757 email: motleymorris@hotmail.co.uk Best wishes Les |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 02:50 PM Pip, that certainly seems to be the case. The Press Association seems to have spoken to Peter Hargreaves, and reports, Peter Hargreaves, of the Motley Morris group, said the school asked if they would perform without blackened faces but they refused. Meanwhile the white supremacist Anglo-Saxon Foundation is having its own illiterate fun with the issue. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 03:13 PM My response to that is two words, and the second one's "idiots". Actually a bit cross about this one. Must go and sing songs to calm down. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: fairplay Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:27 PM But what about all those songs about booze and sex? I can't imagine anyone singing John Barleycorn or Lovely Joan under Sharia law. How much are we going to suppress English culture to accomodate the cultures of others? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:29 PM But what about all those songs about booze and sex? I can't imagine anyone singing John Barleycorn or Lovely Joan under Sharia law. How much are we going to suppress English culture to accomodate the cultures of others? Idiot alert! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jul 09 - 04:50 PM Sneak in everywhere, don't they? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Snuffy Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:00 PM The vast majority of today's alleged "Border"sides are based on the Kirkpatrick/Bedlams model, and tend to have little knowledge or interest in the traditional dances of the border counties. Any "tradition" they have can be dated back no more than 40 years, so the colour that they choose to paint their faces can not be justified by any appeal to ancient practices. There are, however, a small number of sides whose sole or main repertoire is the traditional dances of the Border area, chief among them Silurian, Iron Men, Vancouver Morris and the (Saturday before Christmas only) Original Welsh Border Morris Men. These sides have researched the dances, both from written sources, and from the memories of old people who had performed or witnessed the last manifestations of a once-flourishing tradition. By the way, I find it ironic that Border dancers get slammed on here for denying that there is any connection with Minstrels. And at the same time they are slammed for "gleefully" publishing information showing that there undoubtedly was a connection between "Niggering" and the minstrels. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. Is Border morris based on Minstrels? With the paucity of documentation of the pre-minstrel period we shall probably never be able to get a definitive answer, but on what we do know I incline to the view that there certainly was an indigenous dancing tradition before the arrival of the Minstrels in the 1830s and 40s. Salient features included fairly simple dances, often allowing the participation of varying numbers, the use of sticks, rag coats or similar makeshift costume, and facial disguise. Unlike Cotswold and other forms of morris, it was predominantly a winter activity, apparently more often carried out after dark. I suppose it is possible that none of this existed before 1830, but that after the advent of minstrel shows a dozen villages in the Border counties quite independently decided that blacking up was a good idea, so they each went out and invented a few simple stick dances, and wore strange costumes and blacked their faces. And they all decided independently not to whiten their eyes and mouth nor wear curly wigs to look more like minstrels, nor to ape the costume of the minstrels. More likely to my way of thinking is that these independent traditions had managed to survive in a few places prior to the advent of minstrels. But in the 1830s, just as now, the public at large made an unwarranted but unsurprising connection between the only two groups they knew that artificially blacked their faces. It is not inconceivable that the "Niggering" name was originally given by the Great British public rather than the dancers themselves. "You look just like them minstrels – give us a song" may have been hard to resist if there was an extra shilling or half crown in it for them. These were very poor people, remember, who wouldn't be averse to earning a few extra coppers by giving their so-called "betters" what they wanted to hear. So is blackface traditional? Well yes and no. According to published sources the Dilwyn and Upton men did not black up, while some did and some didn't at Bromsberrow Heath, and only the Fool at Pershore. Evesham, Peopleton and White Ladies Aston did, while Much Wenlock also blacked their hands and the Pershore Not-for-Joes blackened faces and hands and also varnished their nails. I occasionally dance with Black Jack Morris, based in the Evesham area, who try to maintain the traditions of our area as well as possible. We do the traditional dances at the traditional times: we do nothing at all during BST, but once the clocks go back we practice up to Christmas, and dance out after New Year in local villages, usually on a Friday or Saturday, always after dark. And the start of Summer Time brings an end to our season. Our costume is based upon the available descriptions of the Bengeworth dancers, as is the blackened face. Evesham is on the cusp between the Border and Cotswold traditions: within ten miles or so can be found the Cotswold traditions of Chipping Campden, Ilmington and Bidford-on-Avon, and the local sides here take great pains to maintain their local traditions and to display them around the local villages. I dance for Shakespeare MM of Stratford-upon-Avon, guardians of the Bidford dances, as well as performing with the Shakespeare Mummers, who have a repertoire of about a dozen plays collected in local villages, and take a different play out each winter round the area. Like the morris, the Mummers play has been touched by the influence of the minstrel show, but here there is much more evidence for the prevalence of blackface before the 1830s. In the last 15 years we have done much to dilute this influence: we have searched (in vain) for evidence of the songs sung prior to the 1830s. We used to have a rota of three songs traditionally sung by the old (ca 1900) mummers at the end of the play, all from the minstrels (Old Bob Ridley, Camptown Races and Not For Joe): the group has made no formal decision but the first two are now rarely if ever sung, and the line "We had a little N*** and he grew no bigger" in NFJ has been changed to "We had a little Mummer and he was no strummer". (But we have kept the Uncle Billy verse unchanged). We still black up, but Father Christmas has a RED face and Sweet Moll a WHITE one: I have personally never been comfortable with the all-over uniform deep black, and tend to be blotchy and probably more grey than black in places. At the start of each performance our Captain gives an introductory talk about the history of mumming and the reason for the blacking, and the rest of us are often engaged in conversation afterwards by spectators anxious to know more. The more information we can spread about what we do and why we do it the better. I am not ashamed to black up for either morris or mumming, but I have no desire to cause unnecessary offence, and am always willing to explain my understanding of what it means and why I do it. Ruth Archer has said that the link with minstrels is inextricable: you could say that so is the link between the BNP and the English Flag and St George. I disagree with both views, and am engaged in trying to extricate both Border and Mumming and St George's day and the flag from the pool of ignorance in which many well-meaning but ill-informed liberals dwell and to prevent these cultural gems from becoming the tool of the fascist scum who would use it to fan persecution mania. I am English, and proud to be so. But I do not feel my Englishness threatened or diminished by members of other races or cultures living here. I am proud to have been an early joiner of FAF (and similar groups) on Facebook, and would never knowingly offer any comfort or assistance to anyone I knew to espouse fascist views, be they morris dancer, mummer or Middle Bar singer (Yes. I'm also one of them). |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: curmudgeon Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:38 PM An observation from across the pond... I only came to this thread today and have not read quite all of it, but when I went to the Motley Morris web page,with the top hatted, sooty faced lot, my first thought was " Ahh, chimney sweeps!" Many years ago when I plied that trade, I spent some time in "London Labour and the London Poor" to get an idea of the history and traditions. While I don't have a copy of Mayhew, I do recall that he stated that May 1st was considered by the sweeps to be their own holiday, and that they would parade with their brushes and brooms while escorting a Jack-In-the-Green. Any connections in your minds? Carry on the struggle - Tom Hall |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Snuffy Date: 01 Jul 09 - 05:50 PM Oh, my name it is |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:01 PM I wonder if the idea of blacking up for entertainment might actually have started back in England, and only subsequently been adopted and adapted over in the USA in a very different context. In any case there is no kind of long-standing tradition of dancing Border Morris in Kent. That's not to say people haven't every right to dance what they want where they want - but there are no grounds for claiming that the way they do it should be treated as sacrosanct tradition which cannot be changed. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 01 Jul 09 - 06:39 PM Thanks for the long and thoughtful comment, Snuffy. I'll take issue on one minor point - I find it ironic that Border dancers get slammed on here for denying that there is any connection with Minstrels. And at the same time they are slammed for "gleefully" publishing information showing that there undoubtedly was a connection between "Niggering" and the minstrels. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. It's more a case of "damned if you celebrate and damned if you try and ignore". You say that you're am engaged in trying to extricate both Border and Mumming and St George's day and the flag from the pool of ignorance in which many well-meaning but ill-informed liberals dwell and I've got a lot of sympathy with that position. All I'd say is, let Border be Border, and let traditional be traditional. If there's a history of blacked-up faces in a particular area, then it's part of the tradition in that area. Equally, if there's a tradition of yellow faces and red wigs in a particular area, then that's part of the tradition in that area. But if the local tradition is bog-standard Cotswold - or if there is no local tradition, as far as anyone can tell - then there's no particular reason for blacking up, and there's absolutely no reason for insisting on blacking up. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: meself Date: 01 Jul 09 - 07:18 PM Two comments: 1) How could anyone think that the practice of something called "n*gg*ring" might possibly have racist overtones? 2) I don't think you'll have to worry about that particular Head Teacher having anything further to do with Morris for a long, long time. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Guest JeffB Date: 01 Jul 09 - 09:14 PM This thread has obviously gone long past the point where anyone is going to be persuaded to change their minds, even though there have been valid points made on both sides. There are facts a-plenty about tradition, history, intention etc, but facts are only useful for basing opinions on. For instance, the Shropshire Bedlams seem to have been a major influence in popularising Border Morris (and John Kirkpatrick says quite clearly that they black-up solely for dramatic effect). Whether a practice going back to the early 70s counts as a "tradition" is purely a matter of opinion about which people are bound to disagree. Whether it goes back further is perhaps a pointless question if some people believe (and it's fair enough that they might) that 35-40 years is long enough to establish a "tradition" or "custom" or whatever. Similarly, other considerations about what instruments are "traditional" and therefore proper, and whether a debateable association with Nigger Minstrelsy "taints" modern pratice, and whether Nigger Minstrels were deriding black people in the first place, are all just personal opinions which can be talked about endlessly. The consensus seems to be that Border Morris blacks-up for dramatic effect without any racial intention, but because very few of the general public ever see Border Morris, some of us are concerned that blackface will be judged as a crude racist dig. Of course, some people from ethnic minorities may well assume this, and they probably have good reason from bitter experience for doing so. But for me, the answer is not to drop part of the "tradition" because of this possibilty, but to make the most of the opportunity to widen the debate to the non-folk public in order to explain the tradition in particular and morris in general, with a view to getting people of all creeds and colours dancing. I heard a story recently (I don't think it's an urban myth but for the life of my I can't remember where I got it from). An Englishman visiting New York went into a cafe and ordered a black coffee. The waitress - a black lady - stared at him aghast, then called for her supervisor, also a black lady. They asked him to repeat his order, and then said in disgust "You are one sicko", or words to that effect. It's a story which I found both laughable and dismaying. It points up how hypersensitivity can become paranoia and lead to a mindless and insensitive knee-jerk. It's the sort of thing which gives PC a bad name. Some people, black or white, are more easily offended than others, and some choose to be offended without looking for a reasonable explanation. It's perhaps pre-emptive counter-aggression, and while while we can understand why it happens, it needs to be neutralised, because it's an extreme reaction and extreme reactions only escalate problems. One of my songs is "Fathom the Bowl", which includes the line "my wife she's a devil and black as the coal". Should the line be changed? Discuss. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Dead Horse Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:26 PM I wonder if the school simply wanted a morris side and was unaware of anything wrong with blackface until some pc mad do-badder pointed it out to them? It would never occur to me that there was a racist overtone to blacking up - indeed I used to black up myself when I was a member of Dead Horse Morris. None of their members were in any way racist, nor was their founder, Mark Lawson, who was also co-founder of Bishop Gundulfs (non blacked up) and the Blacksmiths weekend at Lewes (blacked up). If a morris side chooses to black up or not, it is their choice, and not to be dictated by the pc brigade( may they rot in hell). The original blacking up WAS done for disguise, but as time passed, I expect they became associated in the minds of the ignorant with Nigger Minstrels, and unfortunately the dancers decided to go along with that image and not correct that ignorance. The folk in those sides were probably equally as ignorant. Nigger Black may well have been the name on the tins of blacking they used. But they did not go out of their way to lampoon people of colour. To demand that Border, Molly or any other other tradition shun blacking their faces is an injustice not welcome in a free thinking society. Nor should sides choosing to black up have to explain in advance that their choice is not based on any racial motives - although I think it encumbant upon them to dispel that notion should it be put to them. Full marks to Motley for not cowtowing to the schools wish to dance without blacking up. Zero marks to the school for missing a chance to educate the so called "masses" who see this tradition as racist. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: meself Date: 01 Jul 09 - 10:36 PM If you believe that story about the guy ordering the black coffee, you'll believe just about anything. And using it to try to make some point about blacking-up in Morris dancing - well, it astounds me. Or it would, if I hadn't been following Mudcat for a few years now ... Anyway, I do remember the Black comedian Flip Wilson presenting that scenario in a skit in about 1968. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Gervase Date: 02 Jul 09 - 02:16 AM You're right; this thread has gone on for a fair time, and looking at the Dead Horse post, it's clear that for the unthinking majority thre's going to be no change of view. The same hackneyed phrases the pc brigae (may they rot in hell) etc Well, thanks Dead Horse. I'm pc. Do you want me to rot in hell? How very kind. But I will take issue with one point in Dead Horse's tirade: To demand that Border, Molly or any other other tradition shun blacking their faces is an injustice not welcome in a free thinking society. I wasn't aware that anyone had demanded this. What there has been is a suggestion that border morris sides might consider reinventing yet another facet of their 'tradition'. And market forces may yet determine that. As the Motley spokesman says in the BBC report of the incident, the side has lost three bookings in the past year because people objected to the black faces. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 02 Jul 09 - 03:10 AM Just to update things a little. I had a quick chat with Jim Snelling (secretary of Motley). He made it very clear, that Motley did not have any issues with the school on their decision. They (Motley) were asked if they would dance without blacking up. Motley felt that as blacking up (based on disguise) is an integral part of their routine, that they declined the school's request to dance not blacked up. So Motley do not have any issues with the school, but were obviosly disapointed at such short notice, not to be dancing. So based on that conversation, I feel it is appropriate to send a further email to the school apologising for my original email. I think the title of this thread is misleading. Motley were not banned. It was just not suitable for that school. End of story for me. If Motley decide to change from totally blacking up based on this incident and use other colours, is something only they can decide at their AGM. I am just happy that the incident was handled properly from both parties. Les Worrall |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Royston Date: 02 Jul 09 - 03:50 AM Well said Les, that makes two of us (you and me) that have felt moved to apologise for our positions earlier in this debate. It shows that lively discourse is beneficial; a shame there aren't more folk that feel able to join us...because plenty should!! |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Ruth Archer Date: 02 Jul 09 - 04:10 AM "They asked him to repeat his order, and then said in disgust "You are one sicko", or words to that effect. It's a story which I found both laughable and dismaying." As someone raised in America, I can tell you that "black coffee" is a perfectly common phrase there and I think your story is probably an urban myth. Thanks very much for that, Les. It's an interesting development. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 02 Jul 09 - 04:19 AM Good man Les. I've followed a similar path to you and Royston (I suspect a lot of other lurkers have too) and if I'd written to the school (as I did briefly consider doing) I hope I'd have been man enough to apologise too. Tom (proud to be PC unless it's gone mad) Bliss |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 02 Jul 09 - 04:44 AM Full marks to Motley for not cowtowing to the schools wish to dance without blacking up. Zero marks to the school for missing a chance to educate the so called "masses" who see this tradition as racist. But how would that process of 'education' actually work in practice? I think it would involve parents making complaints to the school; each of those complaints would have to be countered by a long and detailed explanation (from the school, who aren't exactly experts in all this). Some people would be satisfied, but others would ask more questions, calling for more explanations - and some might never be satisfied (there are always some). It would almost certainly make the local paper; it would probably get picked up by the local fascists; and the school would more than likely come out of it smelling of racism. Obviously they tried to avoid that scenario - who wouldn't? As for Motley, how long have they been doing this again? What is it they're trying to defend - tradition or just force of habit? And what has this episode done for the image of Morris, or for Motley themselves? Full marks to them, indeed. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Banjiman Date: 02 Jul 09 - 04:59 AM Nice one Les, Your actions show huge integrity, which is pretty much what have come to expect from you. Paul |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 02 Jul 09 - 05:00 AM Having said all of that, I think positions have got more polarised here than they are "on the ground" - from Les's comment it sounds as if Motley's response to the school was not so much "we refuse to kow-tow to the PC brigade", more "let's agree to differ". I still think Motley's position on this one is seriously mistaken, but we should acknowledge the difference between that position and some of the Daily Mail-isms that have been offered in their support. Random thought about masking: how about whiting up? It looked pretty weird on Buster Keaton and Marcel Marceau. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 02 Jul 09 - 06:10 AM I'd have thought black rugby-style stripes would have been sufficient if the intention is to disguise while looking as scary as possible (why is that, incidentally, is it because border steps are essentially skipping, so need to be macho'd up)? I can see that the fashion for black clothes (now why does that ring a bell here?;-) would tend to suggest black make-up, but it needn't be full face. I just noticed some molly dancers in an old newspaper - looking like, well... It's those unqualifiable images that do the damage. It's irrelevant whether people jump to wrong or right conclusions. They jump, and in their thousands. Meanwhile a few dancers manage to put their case to a handful of people - and quite a few of them won't accept it. Who benefits? Those who want to divide and rule. Tom |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Vic Smith Date: 02 Jul 09 - 06:34 AM Jeff B. wrote - "One of my songs is "Fathom the Bowl", which includes the line "my wife she's a devil and black as the coal". Should the line be changed? Discuss." I wouldn't sing that line - even though one of my all-time favourite groups, The Watersons recorded it. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:07 AM there are examples of racism which include violence that need to be dealt with,and are much more important. Tom Bliss makes a good point about brown/black striped faces. Vic , could you qualify ,why you would not sing that line. I dont think I would sing it either. Vic ,would you sing this. Donal OG.[Black as the coal is the heart inside me, black as the sloe is the grief that binds me,black as a bootprint in a shining hallway,twas you that blackened it forever and always], do you then exclude the word Black mail , or blackening someones name, from from your vocabulary should we stop using the word sinister,because it casts aspersions on left handed people. Vic ,where do you personally draw the line ,and could you explain,your grounds,I am not necessarily disagreeing with you,but Ithink it would be useful if you qualified your views. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:08 AM Why ever not. I think we need to look at the verse My wife she do disturb me when I'm laid at my ease She does as she likes and she says as she please My wife, she's a devil, she's black as the coal Give me the punch ladle, I'll fathom the bowl I read that to be in relation to the devil who is supposedly evil and its association with the colour black. Next you'll be stopping the black country being called the black country. Or stop the Scots calling a particular brand of whiskey "Black Label" Or stop calling "Black Pudding" black pudding Or stop calling "blackcurrants" blackcurrants. Maybe all colours should be banned from the English language, for fear it will offend anybody of any colour or creed. When will this ever stop. I strikes me that there are a bunch of people who deliberately look for anyway of finding something offensive in anything that mentions black. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:18 AM LOL Seems like you hit the submit button quicker than me there Captain. A few others "Black and Tan" which in my day related to a Guinness and a Mackeson in the same glass. Why do we allow the New Zealand Rugby team to be called the "All Blacks" when clearly they aren't. Should we ban the beer "Black Sheep" As I said before, you won't be able to fart in your own toilet soon. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Phil Edwards Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:23 AM I read that to be in relation to the devil who is supposedly evil and its association with the colour black. I'd agree with that. Traditionally the Devil was portrayed as black rather than red - as I remember there's a character in Jane Austen who mentions "the black gentleman" (meaning Old Nick), which gave me pause when I first saw it. Next you'll be stopping the black country being called the black country. Yawn. It would be really useful if commenters could stick to what people actually are doing and saying. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:29 AM You should say that Pip. But I am fed up of the PC brigade trying to gag everything that is said and done and turning it into a race issue or "Oh my god, you shouldn't have said or done that, you might offend somebody". |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:32 AM Whether a song is appropriate or not is all about context. There are times when Tom and I missed out a certain song we'd been planning to do because we felt it might make someone feel uncomfortable. If i was doing a schools workshop on Race and The Tradition, I might even sing a song with the n word, assuming the school were confortable with that level of debate. When there's a line open to different interpretations as in FTB, I'd have no hesitation in saying it took it to mean black-hearted, then singing the song. There's no racist connotation in the association of black with darkness (either literal or figurative) - though there is in the association of dark skin with darkness. The problem with street dancing is that there is only limited opportunity to set a context. Even if the squire were to bawl something about disguise to the crowd, many wouldn't catch it. Meanwhile the pictures continue to appear in the media, and assumptions are made unchallenged. A chum once suggested to me that dancers cling to disguise not for fear of being recognised by their employers or the authorities, but for fear of being recognised by their friends! (oops - did I say that out loud?) Tom |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:35 AM Yes 'Black' was often used as a referent to the Devil rather than 'brown skinned peoples', especially as until more recent times, the majority of people would not a brown skinned person - so the reference would not have made much sense to many. Similarly terms like The Black Coalsmith would be another synonym for Old Nick I believe, due to the Black (ie: specifically not brown) colour of coal. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Rasener Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:36 AM >>but for fear of being recognised by their friends! (oops - did I say that out loud?) << Especially if they are wearing white trousers with bells on their knees and waving white handkerchiefs LOL :-) |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 02 Jul 09 - 07:44 AM By contrast, in some songs, we hear terms such as "nut brown", or "berry brown" in relation to skin colour of women and horses for example. What's that blasted ballad about 'The Brown Girl' from overseas, that some lord turns over for her dosh? She is contrasted with the lilly white woman, he supposedly loved but rejected because 'the brown girl' was wealthy. Ah yeah, just found it: "Lord Thomas and Fair Ellender" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-4M-Nnaxbw&feature=PlayList&p=B2D0D5657EA394E4&index=20 |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Jul 09 - 08:16 AM Out of interest has anyone ever met any black people who look remotely like a blacked up white Morris dancer? I would be seriously offended if I was black and told that I looked like a middle class white man with black make up on. Like I said before. Those who cannot or will not see the difference between this and genuine racism are, in my opinion, being particulary obtuse. DeG |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Tom Bliss Date: 02 Jul 09 - 08:45 AM David, there are indeed different levels of racism, but to ignore the casual, the habitual or, more pertinently, the institutional (which the first two engender - and which can lead to some seriously unacceptable behaviour) just because they are not as immediately damaging as the violent is to miss a crucial point. We can easily take for granted the liberties most of us enjoy in Britain today. But they exist only because enlightened people in the past have been prepared to struggle against casual, habitual and institutional oppression. Anyone who has suffered bullying at school or at work knows that it doesn't have to be violent to be damaging. There is no clear criterion here. Blacking is a complex issue isn't always unacceptable per se. It's all about attitude - and if your attitude is to avoid offence, and/or to avoid association with more overt racism then you have a duty honestly to ask yourself some serious questions. My problem is people merely saying, we're right now because we were right before, and therefore everyone else is wrong. Folk is at a crossroads just now. How can we choose the right road if our minds are closed? |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: GUEST,Guest JeffB Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:09 AM Thanks Ruth for letting me know that asking for black coffee is fine in New York State. Looks like it was an urban myth after all, though it doesn't detract from my point. Meself, it's easy to sneer and perhaps I deserve it for being gullable, but honestly, in these days of frantic paranoid PC who can say I was entirely foolish to be mislead. The fact that a radical black comedian found extreme (though fictional) PC views derisory 40 years ago might be of interest. Incidentally, just got my latest copy of Folklife West Journal which has a short article on the Brimfield (Herefordshire) Border Morris side of 1909. It mentions that they blacked up, but some had white paint patches. The illustration shows one member with white circles around his eyes, and another with a white area around eyes and nose. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Dave the Gnome Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM There is no clear criterion here. Blacking is a complex issue isn't always unacceptable per se. Exactly, Tom. By the same token it is not always unacceptable either. Each case should rest on it's merits and it seems that here the merits of this case were not considered before minds were closed. Having said that, Les's post about the team does put the situation in perspective. The team are happy about the situation. So is the school. Yet another case of the press making the news rather than reporting it maybe? Cheers DeG |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Vic Smith Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:25 AM In answer to the following questions - 1] Vic , could you qualify ,why you would not sing that line. I dont think I would sing it either. I think I chose my words badly there. I think I should have said that I would not sing that verse rather than that line. As quoted above the verse goes:- My wife she do disturb me when I'm laid at my ease She does as she likes and she says as she please My wife, she's a devil, she's black as the coal Give me the punch ladle, I'll fathom the bowl ....and I find these lines misogynist and I would not be happy singing them - nothing to do with "black" or "racism". Interestingly, you may know that we regularly book the Copper Family at our folk club and there's something that clearly made Bob Copper uncomfortable in his last few years. The Coppers always finished off with Bob singing Oh! Good Ale. and in his last few years, after he had sung the lines - And if my wife did me despise How soon I'd give her two black eyes...... Bob would pause and look up to the heavens and address his dead wife, saying, "I'm sorry, Joan love. You know I don't mean it..... It's in the song, you see." So even the leading icon of English traditional song and one of the stalwarts of the tradition obviously felt uncomfortable with the misogynism and tried to soften it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Vic ,would you sing this. Donal OG. Black as the coal is the heart inside me, Black as the sloe is the grief that binds me, Black as a bootprint in a shining hallway, T'was you that blackened it forever and always. I find this verse to be amongst the most beautiful and poetic in the whole folk song genre. I would not sing it personally for I feel that it is a exclusively a song of a woman's grief. However, my wife does sing it and she will tell you that it is one of her songs that I am most likely to request. A woman is giving vent to her black mood and downcast feelings. Again, nothing to do with racism. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ do you then exclude the word Black mail No, it has no racist connotations or blackening someones name, from from your vocabulary No, it has no racist connotations should we stop using the word sinister,because it casts aspersions on left handed people. Eh? Where did that one come from? could you explain,your grounds,I am not necessarily disagreeing with you,but Ithink it would be useful if you qualified your views. I hope that I have done so here. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Why ever not. Please see my first response in this posting. Next you'll be stopping the black country being called the black country. Or stop the Scots calling a particular brand of whiskey "Black Label" Or stop calling "Black Pudding" black pudding Or stop calling "blackcurrants" blackcurrants. Maybe all colours should be banned from the English language, for fear it will offend anybody of any colour or creed. Are these supposed to be serious questions? I suppose I'd better treat them as such! OK then. I have no problem with the use of Black Country, Black Label, Black Pudding, blackcurrants, blackberries, blackthorn, Black letter press, Black Market, Black Rod, blacksmith, the Blackwatch regiment, the Black Rood of Scotland, blackleg for a strike-breaker, blackout during an air raid, Black and Tan as a drink. The All-Blacks, Black Sheep beer (Can I stop now?) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ How pleasant after all that to get a breath a fresh air and a few words of sense from Tom Bliss. Whether a song is appropriate or not is all about context. There are times when Tom and I missed out a certain song we'd been planning to do because we felt it might make someone feel uncomfortable. If i was doing a schools workshop on Race and The Tradition, I might even sing a song with the n word, assuming the school were confortable with that level of debate. When there's a line open to different interpretations as in FTB, I'd have no hesitation in saying it took it to mean black-hearted, then singing the song. There's no racist connotation in the association of black with darkness (either literal or figurative) - though there is in the association of dark skin with darkness. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:33 AM I'd be interested in seeing some kind of comment from Motley Morris on the post from "GUEST,Rick H" (30 Jun 09 - 11:45 AM) where he claimed to be a member of Motley Morris, and went on to say of Grevesend "Unfortunately it also has a large Chav/Pikey community and has recently started getting a lot of Eastern Europeans and a few Afro Caribbean residents." Because if that really is how Motley Morris members think and talk, they certainly shouldn't be invited into schools to dance. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:35 AM Vic,thankyoufor your replies,I too find Donal og,one of the most beautiful songs,I do sing it,even though I am not a woman[yet]. |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: Dave Masterson Date: 02 Jul 09 - 09:51 AM McG - see DizzyLisa 01 Jul 09 - 06:11 AM |
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Subject: RE: Motley Morris banned ! From: The Sandman Date: 02 Jul 09 - 10:28 AM 300, definition of sinister=of evil omen;on left side of shield,or left dexter=right,someone who is dextrous , good with their hands. unfair to left handers |
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