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BS: The 4th
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Subject: The 4th From: GUEST,Saulgoldie Date: 04 Jul 09 - 11:03 AM I always get goose bumps when I hear this annual reading: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106168024 I hope amid all the cookouts, traveling, and beer we don't forget what this day means. Saul(goldie) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: catspaw49 Date: 04 Jul 09 - 11:55 AM I have this beautiful day all planned out..........Karen took the boys and 2 friends to the Lancaster fairgrounds where they have an all day series of events and rides and then fireworks so I GET THE DAY OFF!!!!! I'M HERE ALL ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ahhhhh........A little internet, then a leisurely shave and shower. I have a book, a couple of unwatched movies recorded, and I bought myself this beautiful rib-eye from our local, small town butcher. Tonight is the the NASCAR race at Daytona. I am keeping my fingers crossed it goes as planned. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: gnu Date: 04 Jul 09 - 12:04 PM I SWEAR I LOOKED!! Hehehee... Subject: BS: July 4, 2009 From: gnu - PM Date: 04 Jul 09 - 12:03 PM Did I miss the thread? If there is one, I hope a clone deletes this thread. Have a great day my brothers and sisters to the south and far and wide. God bless the USA and all who sail in her. garygnu
[Oh, ok. Just for you] |
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Subject: HappY Independents Day From: GUEST,jOhn Date: 04 Jul 09 - 12:17 PM happy independents day to all to all the americun mudcat people, especialluy to joe and max etc, [they they best americvan ones], but to al the other ones as well, from john from hull, [and proboply all the other mudcat peopleople in hull, [and uk as well. jonhn i tried to see when is uk inpenenence day, i look at wikipediea, but not find it, anyway=happpy birthday everybody. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Les from Hull Date: 04 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM Yes Happy Birthday to the United States of America and its citizens. jOhn - in Hull we had a couple of goes at a sort of independence. On 23rd of April 1642 we told King Charles I that he couldn't come in. 'Of course I can, I'm the bloody King!', sez he. 'Sod off!', sez us. Start of the English Civil War. And then when James II was king he was a bit too Roman Catholic for Hull folks' tastes. He gave all his Roman Catholic mates jobs, like running Hull and bossing us about. And there were a load of Army blokes around an' all. So on 4th December 1688, some of the Hull lads got up early and locked 'em all up. This was 'Town-Taking Day', which used to be a bit of a celebration in Hull. Revolutions? We've shit 'em! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: olddude Date: 04 Jul 09 - 03:24 PM Sounds like a great plan Spaw my friend. Gonna do some grilling meself. I have not burned some hot dogs in a long time ... no jell-o for desert however |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: gnu Date: 04 Jul 09 - 04:05 PM Jello sucks when done on the BBQ. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Rapparee Date: 04 Jul 09 - 05:07 PM We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. --Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world. Happy Independence Day to everyone, everywhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Micca Date: 04 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM I always thought it said "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the happiness of pursuit...." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: maeve Date: 04 Jul 09 - 05:27 PM I never tire of those words and their meaning, Rapaire. Thank you. Happy Independence Day. maeve |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Rapparee Date: 04 Jul 09 - 09:21 PM Heavy rain and hail. No fireworks tonight! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: maeve Date: 04 Jul 09 - 09:45 PM I hear the booming of fireworks, but no idea from whence it comes. maeve |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Beer Date: 04 Jul 09 - 10:41 PM Peace to all our American friends. Adrien |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Amergin Date: 04 Jul 09 - 11:13 PM Well...I went to the coffee shop...drank some tea and wrote.... and my parents had a barbecue...which as considerate as they are...the only food that didn't have meat in it was the the cake and ice cream....so guess what I ate.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Rapparee Date: 04 Jul 09 - 11:13 PM I promise that I won't invade Canada this month. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Amergin Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:11 AM You need a passport in order to invade these days, Rap....I still find that very bizarre...when I was growing up we would make day trips north of the border.... however, I can kind of understand the reasoning....they don't want any illegals going north...anymore than we want illegals coming north... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Little Hawk Date: 05 Jul 09 - 12:37 AM Strangely enough, people in Canada, Australia, and the UK, and in many other places also seem to believe that all people are created equal, that they are endowed with certain inalienable rights, and that among those are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. People in all modern democracies believe such things...and many of those democracies evolved within the British system, not outside of it. It's not an exclusively American idea. It's not an idea embraced only in the USA. It's quite a common set of ideas, and such freedoms are found in many places where the USA has never attained any political dominion. I've read some books about the American Revolution. My impression is that the key matter which triggered the war was the "taxation without representation" issue. It was a war triggered by the financial concerns of Yankee traders who were upset about British taxes on imports into North America. Those Yankee traders were mostly located in New England, specially around Boston, and it was around that region of the 13 states that the revolution began. Once it did begin, it started a bitter war. As soon as a war is under way things get a lot worse, people get killed, property gets destroyed, and both sides become ever more embittered and ever more determined to wipe out the other. The Declaration of Independence was written some time after the war started, about a year after, I believe, and many of the complaints in it have to do with matters that arose after the opening of hostilities...after serious battles had occurred. The language in the Declaration reflects the hardened attitudes created by that war...and many of the complaints expressed about the British have to do with things that occurred in wartime. The British had a long list of similar complaints about things the colonists had done, needless to say. The whole thing could have been avoided, had not hardliners and very stubborn and arrogant people on BOTH sides driven it to the point of open warfare in 1775. The blame for that, in my opinion, falls about equally on the British crown and on a group of revolutionary fanatics like Sam Adams, who was a man absolutely bent on civil strife and revolution, no matter what the consequences. He was uninterested in productive negotiations with England, he wanted a war...and he got one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: katlaughing Date: 05 Jul 09 - 01:32 AM For the first time since the kids were little, my Rog took me to see the local fire works. He used to be like Spaw and would stay home when the kids and I went, as they grew older. The fireworks here don't hold a candle to the ones we remember from New England, but it was really sweet of Rog to take me. Unfortunately we didn't have any kids with us this time, but it was still fun and a major thing for us to be out of an evening, anyway. LH, you ought to read Jimmy Carter's novel about the Revolutionary War in the Carolinas: The Hornet's Nest: A Novel of the Revolutionary War. Happy 4th, everyone! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: open mike Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:59 AM i tend to think of it as inter-dependance day, as we are all interconnected in so many ways. I made red-white-and blue smoothie (blended up strawberries, bananas and cocoanut, and blue berries) and then put that in an ice cream freezer and stirred it up into slushy...sherbet type stuff. yum. or was it sorbet? also brought a boquet with red canna lilies, white yarrow and blue chicory flowers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: gnu Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:07 AM Rain and hail stopped the fireworks? Not here... they put up a tent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: topical tom Date: 05 Jul 09 - 06:15 AM |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Melissa Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:26 AM LH: "and on a group of revolutionary fanatics like Sam Adams," ..or maybe John? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Bonzo3legs Date: 05 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM But so much is being taken away from us in the UK now by idiots afraid of "offending" folks - with the exception of it seems, sodding St Patrick's Day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Rapparee Date: 05 Jul 09 - 11:53 AM Guy Fawkes Day offends my Catholic heritage. V-E Day offends my Germanic ancestry. The Monarchy offends my democratic beliefs. The C of E offends me because it is a blatant ripoff of Catholicism. I would greatly appreciate it if the entire EU would refrain from offending me in any way whatsoever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: gnu Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:04 PM Margrethe II offends your beliefs? How so? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Bill D Date: 05 Jul 09 - 02:37 PM It was about the best weather for fireworks & cookouts here (Wash DC area) in years. Not humid...temps in low 80s...very few bugs. We had a cookout and singing session with friends in the MD suburbs, then I went home at 11:30 and watched 2 re-runs of the fireworks from the Mall on PBS...(and watched the videos of the traffic trying to get away from the Mall) Friends & I used to go down to the Mall at 8AM, get a parking place near the Lincoln Memorial, grab a place for a blanket on a little hill across from the Memorial, then take turns guarding it all day while going to the Folk Festival and playing Frisbee, then sharing the blanket for the fireworks and running like hell to our choice getaway parking spot to beat the crowds. Why yes..I WAS younger then.... *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Neil D Date: 05 Jul 09 - 03:48 PM From: Melissa - PM Date: 05 Jul 09 - 07:26 AM LH: "and on a group of revolutionary fanatics like Sam Adams," ..or maybe John? Actually Melissa, John Adams cousin Samuel Adams was the true firebrand in that family. He was instigating for a total break with England years before our "Founding Fathers". For example, in 1770 John Adams defended and won acquittal for the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre. Meanwhile Sam Adams was provoking the often violent demonstrations in the streets of Boston that led to the incident in the first place. Demonstrations that caused surly response from the British which in turn sparked increasingly large and riotous activity by the mobs of the Boston street, officials burned in effigy, customs officers tarred and feathered, the Royal Governors home ransacked and finally tea in Boston Harbor. It was this escalating spiral of unrest and heavy-handed retalliation that culminated in all out war. People in other colonies, and many even in Massachusetts, were initially disturbed by the UNcivil disobedience in Boston but were even more horrified by the arrogant, ham-handed response from across the pond. Here again it was Sam Adams and his fellow Sons of Liberty who quite shrewdly searched out and corresponded with like minded individuals throughout the colonies, putting there own spin on events, creating their own propaganda, something they were much better at than the British government who were to complacent to see the need. By 1774-5 there was a strong independent streak running through all of British North America south of Canada, especially on the frontier. Witness the Mecklenberg Resolves from North Carolina or this from the Fort Gower Resolves: But as the love of Liberty, and attachment to the real interests and just rights of America outweigh every other consideration, we resolve that we will exert every power within us for the defense of American liberty, and for the support of her just rights and privileges; not in any precipitate, riotous, or tumultuous manner, but when regularly called forth by the unanimous voice of our countrymen. This came out of the Ohio wilderness 20 months BEFORE the Declaration of Independence. But that being said, it all starts with Boston, with mob violence and with Sam Adams. The only thing I would ammend in Little Hawk's statement that "The whole thing could have been avoided, had not hardliners and very stubborn and arrogant people on BOTH sides driven it to the point of open warfare in 1775. The blame for that, in my opinion, falls about equally on the British crown and on a group of revolutionary fanatics like Sam Adams, who was a man absolutely bent on civil strife and revolution, no matter what the consequences. He was uninterested in productive negotiations with England, he wanted a war...and he got one." is that on the British side it wasn't just the crown. Parliament, with the exception of Radical Whigs like John Wilkes and Isaac Barre, was equally culpable. The various ministries and the military establishment had their hand in as well. But on the American side it was radical unrest from the below that eventually pushed more established Americans into rising up for independence, and it all goes back to Sam Adams. George Washington might be the "Father of Our Country", but for good or ill, Samuel Adams was the Father of our Revolution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: gnu Date: 05 Jul 09 - 04:02 PM Great history lessons! Thanks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: theman Date: 06 Jul 09 - 12:08 AM It was raining almost all day yesterday so they had to postpone the fireworks until tonight. But it was worth it. Tonight was absolutely beautiful |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: theman Date: 06 Jul 09 - 12:09 AM note: I am about two hours behind mudcat time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Melissa Date: 06 Jul 09 - 06:01 AM Thanks, Neil D! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Neil D Date: 06 Jul 09 - 11:52 PM You're welcome. I know I come off like an 11th grade history teacher sometimes, but it is a passion of mine and sometimes I get carried away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The 4th From: Ron Davies Date: 07 Jul 09 - 10:51 PM Best 4th I can recall. First, as Bill D mentions, the weather was the best in more than 10 years--basically perfect--70's with a breeze. That's a good start. Jan and I had a chance to be part of our town's parade. Jan and I both rode a "conference bike"--seating 7 in a circle, steered by the person in the back with the others providing the power. When not pedaling--(it was a changing cast of riders) some of us rode around the conference bike. Referring to the recent Red Line catastrophe (on the route I ride every workday) and the sluggishness since then, and since the conference bike was painted red, I shouted out to the crowd as we went along on the parade route "This is the Red Line that works!". Well received. There were also 2 Councilmen on the conference bike and a third Councilman pulling a constituent seated in a rickshaw just behind. So another bike rider shouted out: "Politicians with zero emissions!" There were even a few people in the parade (with plastic bags,) who declared: "This is the only parade that cleans up after itself." Then after the parade we went to a potluck picnic hosted by a musical friend. Wonderful food, then great singing, storytelling--all in a tree-shaded bower. Then in the evening, Jan and I went to the local fireworks. I took a guitar and we sang duets til the fireworks started. Now to the history question: From my reading, it's awfully easy to oversimplify the start of the Revolution. I think the nice neat idea that both sides were equally culpable for the war is nonsense. In 1775, Sam Adams and other firebrands were vastly outnumbered by colonists who just wanted an accommodation with Britain. For all sorts of reasons--Franklin, for instance hoped to make a bundle west of the 13 colonies. There was quite a bit of hesitation in going up against the top military power in the world. All it would have taken was a bit less stubbornness by Lord Germain and a few others (including of course King George). For anybody seriously interested in the question, I'd recommend Iron Tears, by Stanley Weintraub, as a well-written, engaging,, non-academic telling of the story. He solidly makes the case that in many ways, the Revolution was Britain's Vietnam. Right from the start there was a sizable group in Britain who were against the war. Lord Chatham (the elder Pitt) warned against it. Opposition caricatures and cartoons and anti-government broadsides were easily obtainable. "Predictions of the futility of suppression were not uncommon." (Weintraub p 10). Even after it started, it was in many ways prosecuted half-heartedly, for a variety of reasons. Many intelligent Britons, including in the military, wanted no part of it. This included the Howe brothers, who were eventually persuaded to sign on anyway. It was also not easy to get soldiers for the regular army--especially since there were problems with several groups. Catholic Irishmen were considered unreliable. Scots,, after risings ending in the 1740's, might be a bad bet, And lower-class Englishmen might in fact be dangerous to arm in large numbers. Also, nobody was anxious to have taxes raised to be able to prosecute the war. Added to this, of course the distance factor was a real and continuing nightmare--both financially and logistically. Many, on both sides of the Atlantic, were against the war. But in Britain, the "King's Friends" had the upper hand. The pro-war forces in the colonies did not in 1775. That's the difference. |
