Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

So Sharon. Will YOUR life stand up to that kind of scrutiny? Jeez - Let it go. You'll never be happy with any of the answers you get so why bother yourself?

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: Genie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:44 PM

Sharon, I'm actually more concerned about the overly harsh treatment that the poor and minorities (and some others) get at the hands of the law than I am about the rich and connected being allowed to put some serious mistakes behind them and move on.

I don't know what happened at Chappaquiddick, but I think it's almost certain that someone whose car had just plunged off a bridge into frigid water would have been disoriented from a concussion and maybe some hypothermia too.   If they had consumed any alcohol at all beforehand, that would exacerbate the confusion.    It's quite possible that Kennedy's story is true and that his only "sin" was the delay in contacting authorities -- something that probably wouldn't have made a difference as to Kopechne's survival but which COULD have made the difference between Kennedy being able to go on with his life as a public servant and his being an outcast from that.   Personally, I don't think the nation would have been better served by his being imprisoned or ostracized -- And I feel the same way about "average citizens" who might have acted the same in a similar situation.   
When someone commits an offense against others, I'd rather see rehabilitation and restitution than retribution and recrimination.    We don't offer everyone that chance -- which I think is the tragedy and injustice -- but I'm glad when someone who does have that chance uses it for good. And I think Ted Kennedy did a lot of good for a lot of people.


Word to what lefthanded guitar said:
"As far as his mistake of 40 years ago, I do believe it was truly an accident. (If anyone has ever seen a picture of that bridge, btw, it is treacherous). I think his track record shows that he was a man of conscience overall (and there's NO use arguing it with people who disgree)

For me, I just feel terribly saddened, and the entire family seems to have been met by tragedy at ever turn.An older brother lost. Two brothers lost. A sister lost. A lovely and elegant sister in law gone. A nephew of great promise, most heartbreakingly gone too soon. And yet, where lesser folks would have faltered and been thwarted, Ted Kennedy took up the mantle and never lost his fire and dedication to a cause greater than his own.

Rest in peace Ted. Rest in peace all of them."

(Note that the Rose Kennedy's family lost more members prematurely than those mentioned.   They lost 2 daughters and a grandson prematurely, as well as 3 sons. (Four, counting Ted -- and I think 77 IS a too young to die when you are as actively engaged as Edward M. Kennedy was. But cancer can strike at any age.)

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: Genie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:49 PM

Wesley, I'm not sure how well most of our lives would stand up to the kind of scrutiny that public figures are subjected to daily.

And there are a lot of people who maybe never did anything seriously bad - but never did much good for anyone either.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:53 PM

It all just seems rather ghoulish to me. Like a bunch of kids snickering on a playground.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:53 PM

"So Sharon. Will YOUR life stand up to that kind of scrutiny?"

Since my life isn't over yet, there's no telling. :-)

However, so far, at age 53, I have never been responsible for any other person's death.

Also, I'm not a U.S. Senator or any other sort of powerful person with other people's lives and welfare in my hands, so I'm not required to undergo that kind of scrutiny.

Apples and oranges, Wesley.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:54 PM

"Also, I'm not a U.S. Senator or any other sort of powerful person with other people's lives and welfare in my hands, so I'm not required to undergo that kind of scrutiny."

Lucky for you - and us....

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 04:59 PM

Geezus, this is an OBITUARY thread.

Wesley said it--go slog it out somewhere else. Or start over, and have an obit thread where people who are sorry to see his passing can read and reflect. Some of you have all of the sensitivity and grace of hyenas.

Here are some remarks by VP Joe Biden, who served in the Senate for 36 years with Kennedy.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:08 PM

"Geezus, this is an OBITUARY thread."

Exactly, SRS. It's an obituary thread: a discussion thread with an obituary posted at or near the beginning. It's NOT a eulogy thread. If you want a feel-good-only sorry-to-see-his-passing thread, then start a eulogy thread and label it as such.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:08 PM

Whatever happened then, I believe that the Health Care Bill should be oncsidered his true memorial. It would be appropriate to name it the Theodore Kennedy National Health Care bill in his honor. He has been fighting for it for a very long time and has stated that he feels this is his life's work.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:13 PM

Um, EBarnacle, his name was not Theodore. It was Edward Moore Kennedy.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: Beer
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:14 PM

"For 40 years since, Ted Kennedy has been an exemplary public figure, working to make life better in every way he could. What more could be asked of someone, whether they had an 'unfortunate incident' in their past or not?

I despair at these attempts by those who do not know to judge and decide that someone's life is defined by what they assume about something 40 years ago."

Right on Bill D.
Adrien

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:37 PM

I deal every day with combat veterans, who often are totally unable to remember the details of incidents in which they were involved and who had basically gone on a physical and mental "automatic pilot" at the time. I can't imagine that the stress of that accident and his own escape would have been any different from what they experienced.   What's that saying? Something about being without sin and casting stones?

Like I said, RIP.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:50 PM

There's a very nice tribute to Ted Kennedy at http://tedkennedy.org/.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 05:59 PM

The common curtesy of treating the man with respect shouldn't require a separate eulogy.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:25 PM

I've looked up several definiions of "obituary", and none of them says anything about a need for it to be respectful. The definitions are all along the lines of "a notice of someone's death, usually including a short biography."

Wikipedia's definition is: "An obituary is an attempt to give an account of the texture and significance of the life of someone who has recently died." We have been discussing both the (uneven) texture and the significance (for good or ill) of Kennedy's life here; what's amiss? What's discourteous about discussing both the good and the bad parts of the deceased's life? (It's not like he's going to read it, and those who do read it should be prepared to acknowledge that a person does not suddenly become perfect when he or she dies.)

Treating the deceased with so-called "respect" by glossing over or completely ignoring the more sordid details of their lives is part-and-parcel of a eulogy or a tribute, not an obituary. So, if an "obituary thread" on Mudcat is a thread wherein only high-flying things may be said, then it is misnamed. There should be a separate prefix called "Trib" or "Eulogy" for such a thread.

Or, if it is some sort of unwritten Mudcat policy that Obit threads are equivalent to eulogies, and that posters should not mention anything less than stellar about the past of the passed, then I think that that policy should be made official, spelled out and posted in the FAQ. (It should be noted that, according to the current FAQ's "Mudcatiquette" section, Joe says he stays away from giving guidelines on etiquette.)

Otherwise, let Mudcatters say what they think about a person who is the subject of a thread, be he alive or dead. Post your own RIPs and your own eulogies if you wish, but please don't begrudge the rest of us our opinions as to how much or how little "respect" to give.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: DougR
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:36 PM

My wife and I attended a social function at Senator and Mrs. Kennedy's beautiful home on the Potomac River in McClean, Virginia one night in 1970. He was a most gracious host, as was she, as hostess. This was when he was married to his first wife, Joan.

Obviously we did not discuss politics.

He was a great liberal senator.

DougR

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 06:53 PM

If the deceased were a relative of a member of our community, then I think it would be in bad taste to discuss his peccadillos in the Forum. If somebody here dissed Sandy Paton or Rick Fielding or other people we know, I'd most probably delete the derogatory messages right away.

But Ted Kennedy was a very public and very controversial figure. It just wouldn't be honest to discuss him without discussing the controversy.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 07:11 PM

Thank you, Joe. Also, thanks for verifying that this is a discussion thread.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: gnu
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 07:18 PM

Right on, Joe.

One other thing fer all you crappers... If YOU never took a drink, feel free to crucify in a holy and righteous manner. It only shows your unholiness to the world. Judge ye not lest ye be judged as a fookin idiot.

Ted was not perfect.

But let him rest in peace for his good deeds. Do the math.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 07:43 PM

Well Sharon, I am overjoyed for you that you don't know whether your life could stand up to the scrutiny given here.......mine could not. And I would suggest that you are probably the only one who has been so blessed as to be given the gift of perfection. I had any number of events that ended badly and I would gladly take them all back in a heartbeat. In most cases I was young and stupid and lucky to have come out the other side. Ted had an incident that by all accounts he was ashamed of and had no excuse for.........and there but for fortune went I.

I don't think we can ever pay up for the wrong we've done but some have continued to try and to even pay forward but in the end it comes to this I suppose. Some simply give up though and get the same result. Geeziz, that's sad.............

Lenny Bruce once said that if you could take the hot lead enema you could cast the first stone. I guess you're one who could take it Sharon! Wow. I'm impressed......So just bend over while I get the funnel........

Spaw

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 07:44 PM

It doesn't need to be discussed in an obit thread, though, Joe. How rude, ill-mannered and judgemental. SharonA...that is quite a declaration on your part, that he will never rest in peace. You sit at the right hand of whatever god you think might declare that? Such arrogance...speaking of karma.

Wesley, BillD, and SRS, well-said.

If anyone is interested, there is a movement, tonight, to get folks to light a candle and put it in their window in memory of Senator Kennedy. Also, here is a great speech he made last year about HEALTH CARE He would appreciate a concentration on that rather than old shit being stirred by those who weren't even there or may not have even been born.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:07 PM

Bring on the hot lead enema, Spaw. I've had colitis since I was 21 and my rectum is mostly scar tissue. I probably won't feel a thing.

Sheesh. Talk about "arrogance"... Look, Spaw, Kat and Gnu, I never claimed to be perfect. As for casting the first stone when I'm not perfect: as Joe says, we cannot discuss Ted Kennedy without discussing the Chappaquiddick controversy -- and may I remind you that I was not the first to bring it up on this thread. Where are all your slings and arrows for the other posters who mentioned it?

As for my statement that Kennedy will never rest in complete peace, what I meant was that the Chappaquiddick controversy -- and all his peccadillos and other scandolous behavior -- will follow him beyond the grave and into the history books. His legacy will never be free of that. Understand? I did not mean to make a judgment as to whether his spirit will go to heaven or hell. As I said to Genie, his redemption for the homicide of Mary Jo Kopechne is up to his God.

As for me, I do not presume to sit at any god's right hand, as Kat accuses. That's a pretty funny image, considering I'm an agnostic with atheist tendencies! I'm afraid my karma ran over Kat's dogma. :-)

Funny how those people who spout the old "Judge not lest ye be judged" verse are sooooo quick to judge and condemn others themselves... Why are you holier-than-me people filling up a thread about your idol, Ted Kennedy, with your hateful remarks about me????

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:33 PM

Homicide? He drove off a bridge. She drowned. He didn't. If he had tried to dive for her in the dark, in shock and with a possible concussion, he probably would have drowned too.   His subsequent behavior was reprehensible if he wasn't still in shock, but homicide? Not by any definition I've ever heard. (And, BTW, I wasn't a terribly big fan of his)

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: EBarnacle
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:40 PM

OK, Sharon, my error; then how about the Edward M. (Ted) Kennedy National Health Care Act. Good enough?

It is said that the evil that men do lives on after them while the good is oft interred with their bones. I hope not in this case. There is a lot on the positive side here to be remembered.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 08:45 PM

Artbrooks: Here's the legal definition from Nolo.com (http://www.nolo.com/dictionary/homicide-term.html;jsessionid=161799B1DE2632A87898C8ABF22340CF.jvm1):

"Homicide: The killing of one human being by the act or omission of another. The term applies to all such killings, whether criminal or not. Homicide is noncriminal in a number of situations, including deaths as the result of war and putting someone to death by the valid sentence of a court. Killing may also be legally justified or excused, as it is in cases of self-defense or when someone is killed by another person who is attempting to prevent a violent felony. Criminal homicide occurs when a person purposely, knowingly, recklessly, or with extreme negligence causes the death of another. Murder and manslaughter are examples of criminal homicide."

So, yeah, negligent homicide. Of course, Ted Kennedy was not convicted of anything more serious than "leaving the scene of an accident after causing injury" (whereupon he received a two-month suspended sentence) because he was Ted Kennedy.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: jeddy
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:04 PM

i had never heard of teddy kennedy, before this thread.

my thought is that, yes he did terrible things,BUT by the sounds of things he spent the majority of his life trying to make up for them.

there are all things we are ashamed of and wish we could take back, but he was in a unique position to make a real difference to everyones lives.

like someone else has already said it is for himself and his god to judge and attone for his harmful actions.

i have no problem with saying the truth about the dead, they do not become saints just because they have passed. however it is surely how they try to live after making such a colosall mistake that should define them not the mistake itself.

may he be watched over and guided to the truth and find inner peace.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Genie
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:26 PM

Sharon, Joe, and others, I agree that it's very reasonable to mention the relevant facts of someone's life - the good and the bad - in an obituary.   I wish, in fact, when certain other political figures -- especially Ronald Reagan -- died, that the media would have taken less of a "eulogy" approach to the discussions of their lives.    (The same was kind of done with JFK for a while, because his assassination was so shocking and he was so young.)   At any rate, I don't think one's death is a qualification for sainthood, and it's reasonable to discuss the life realistically. That's not disrespectful.   As long as it doesn't turn into a political food fight.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Beer
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:29 PM

He received a thousand times more than a 2 month suspended sentence.
ad.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:30 PM

All he achieved since that night could not erase what he did, and what he did not do, that night. Sorry, but he'll never rest in complete peace.

It would have been helpful if you'd explained how you meant that. The way it reads is re' his "soul," "spirit," whatever and sounds arrogant, to me.

I spoke to a friend, tonight, who had first-hand knowledge of what kind of senator Kennedy was to his constituents. She worked in MA with the poorest of the poor, in legal services, community outreach, and, eventually in groups which recommended and worked for legislation which would help their clients. Time and again, when they invited politicians to seminars, etc. in each of the areas she worked in, Senator Kennedy or one of his staff would be there. He was the only one who made sure of that, of all the politicians and it was done quietly, no cameras, no reporters, no press releases.

She also said when she was in legal services and had a case which she felt would benefit from referral to a congressional office, she would always refer them to his AND she followed up to make sure they found some kind of satisfaction/help with their cases. Sure enough, not once did any of them say "no, he did nothing for me." It was always, "yes, thank you, Senator Kennedy helped me out." Again, these were ordinary folks, most of them living in poverty, no power that a regular pol might look for when using their power to help out AND, again, he did it quietly. Lot of folks were quite thankful for him and his service which honoured their dignity.

kat

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 09:34 PM

Kat, it would have been helpful if you had asked me what I meant, instead of jumping to conclusions by reading your own words into my statement! :-D

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:02 PM

Very true - the legal definition of homicide includes death by accident as well as death in self defense.   Far be it from me to make any rash assumptions as to what you may have meant, and I apologize if I made incorrect decisions based solely upon tone and context.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:18 PM

Imo, the onus is on the writer to make sure their message is clear, Sharon. I am sure I am not the only who took Sorry, but he'll never rest in complete peace to mean exactly what it says. If you meant in his place of history, etc. you should have said so, imo.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:24 PM

Sharon - It's about 6 hours later and you're still hammering away at it? OK - It's very possible that Ted screwed up. He dropped the ball. He screwed the pooch. Made a mistake. Are you happy? He had decades in the Senate. From what I understand only two other people served longer than him. But you want to make this all about one of the lowest points in his life. If that makes you happy go ahead. But it's an odd way to behave in my opinion.

C'mon - Give it a try. Say something nice about the man.

God forbid you pass away sometime soon. Would it really make any sense for your obit thread here at the Mudcat to make a big deal about a low point in your life - something like your colitis? Would that sum up your life? Would you want us to remember you that way?

"Gee that Sharon was a wonderful person - but what about her colitis? That doesn't happen to everybody you know. I wonder how that happened?"

See how silly that sounds? It makes me wonder what's really eating you about Ted Kennedy. Is there something you've left out?

I wish you a long and happy life and hope it's a very long time before we ever see an Obit thread with your name on it. Best of luck to you. And that's my last word on the subject.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:29 PM

OK, so Ted Kennedy was responsible for the death of one person, and spent the rest of his life trying to atone for it in one way or another.

George Bush, on the other hand, is responsible for the death of tens of thousands- and is proud of the fact.

Lets keep things in perspective.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Beer
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:49 PM

In a way Greg, that was the point I was making earlier when i said he received a thousand times more than a 2 month suspended sentence.
Today a man is convicted and released serving very little time and laughing on the way out. Mr.Kennedy didn't laugh. Mr. Kennedy did what was the right thing to do. He paid back to society for his mistake. And by the way, he didn't have to.
A great family with tragedies that have followed them all their lives.
Ad.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 10:53 PM

I agree with you, Sharon. There was never a time in the last 40 years when I saw Senator Kennedy on television that I didn't think of Mary Jo Kopechne. Nothing he ever did had any credibility for me after that.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:00 PM

Kat sez "Imo, the onus is on the writer to make sure their message is clear, Sharon. I am sure I am not the only who took Sorry, but he'll never rest in complete peace to mean exactly what it says. If you meant in his place of history, etc. you should have said so, imo."

But, Kat, you pulled that quote out of the context of my post of 26 Aug 09 - 01:51 PM, wherein I was discussing his place in history (specifically, the behaviors that had cost him the Presidency -- a higher place in history than he will have). Jeez Louise, how didactic do you require me to be in every sentence?

- - - - - - - - -

Wesley sez "C'mon - Give it a try. Say something nice about the man."

Ummmmmmmmmmmm................... Sorry. I got nuthin'. The guy just totally creeped me out.

But my colitis... Ah, therein lies a tail... I mean, tale... :-)

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Raptor
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:17 PM

He did a lot of good and he did some bad. Both should be discussed.

Leave Sharron alone!

I tend to agree that one responsible for antoher's death might not rest in peace either. Not to say I wish that upon anyone just that they MAY never rest in peace. (who knows)

I wonder how the deceased girl's mother feels about Mr. Kennedy?

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: SharonA
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:28 PM

Genie, Art, Rig and Raptor: Thank you!

EBarnacle: Yup, good enough. Sounds like a plan.

Wesley: I appreciate the long-life-and-luck blessing. Right back at ya.

G'night, all.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:33 PM

In tribute to Senator "Ted" Kennedy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc6mcKUucaw&search=I%27ll%20Fly%20Away%20brother%20where%20out%20thou

"Farther Along" By The Peasall Sisters

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 26 Aug 09 - 11:36 PM

I started a new thread, labled as such for respectful discussion of Kennedy's life. Clones, please DO NOT merge the threads.

Those of you who are so intent on harping on partisan politics, who would smear his entire life and career based upon some bad decisions (far outweighed by good works), and insulting those of us who wish to remember Kennedy fondly, stay on this thread and duke it out amongst yourselves. I'm frankly ashamed of you.

SRS

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:21 AM

Sorry, SRS, but I'm not going to protect that thread. If you have personal hangups about what you say about the dead, that's fine - but I don't think it's right for you to expect to be able to control what other people have to say. If there's any trouble in that thread, I'll close it and I won't allow another attempt.

I will say this: When the accident happened at Chappaquiddick forty years ago in in 1969, Ted Kennedy escaped - but then he went for help and went back to the scene of the accident to try to free Kopechne from the wreckage. If he really was a coward, he wouldn't have gone back. Still, he certainly wasn't as heroic as one might hope a Kennedy would be. Joe and Jack and Bobby all died martyrs. Teddy didn't show the heroism of his brothers, but what he did was certainly understandable.

And then there was his first marriage and divorce. Certainly not exemplary, I'd say - so much so, that his ex-wife wrote a book about it. According to most acounts, Teddy Kennedy was a boozer and a philanderer during his first marriage, although his second marriage seemed to be very solid. From all appearances, Victoria is a remarkable woman.

But despite all that, he was an excellent senator - they don't make senators any better than Teddy Kennedy. He had his own philosophical viewpoint which favored those who weren't wealthy or powerful, but he was certainly not a mindless ideologue. He knew how to negotiate and how to compromise, in order to get at least part of his goals accomplished for his constituents.

He wasn't an icon. He was a real human being - flawed, but able to overcome his flaws and accomplish far more than his brothers were able to accomplish in their short lives. I think his life is a wonderful lesson for all of us who realize we aren't perfect. Despite our imperfections, we have to carry on. If we don't, nobody will.

God bless you, Ted Kennedy. You had your faults, but you did a lot of good. I'm sure you're in Heaven today.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Genie
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 12:38 AM

I think that's a good idea, Stilly.

However you feel about Ted Kennedy's political views - and I know we're not all on the same wavelength here - or Chappaquiddick (which was 40 years ago), I don't think it all has to be rehashed in every thread about Kennedy's death.

And, since I'm in this thread, for what it's worth, I don't think Mary Jo Kopechne's death was ever ruled a homicide, of any sort. We will probably never know, but if, in fact, Kennedy was not intoxicated and the car went off the bridge due to road conditions - it happens - it wasn't not a homicide, negligent or otherwise. It' was an accidental death.

If we are going to express reasonable criticism of Ted Kennedy, I hope it won't fall along strict partisan lines. I appreciate what you said, Doug R. And Ron Reagan had his mom, Nancy, on his radio show tonight. She didn't get political. She just expressed her great friendship with Ted Kennedy and admiration for him as a person and sorrow at his loss.
I was very glad to hear that.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 01:41 AM

The ideologues hated Ted Kennedy - because he was not an ideologue, and they didn't understand him. But there were many people, both Republicans and Democrats, who have stepped forward to honor this great man who listened to both sides of every argument and tried to find the common ground. Maybe he realized his imperfections, and maybe that made him into a man who could respect and listen to those who disagreed with him.
I know I'm not perfect. I hope I can do the same as Ted Kennedy.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 03:13 AM

I like the Obits of public figures to be "warts and all" discussion.

Frankly I wouldn't bother reading them if they weren't, because I wouldn't learn anything about the person from them.

I agree with SharonA's comment about Obits being *discussion*, as opposed to 'Tributes'. I didn't know much about Ted Kennedy, so I find the background of real interest.

Honestly discussing a public figures life in an Obit, including the darker facets, is a good thing. I don't like sugar coated whitewashes. Telling the truth, isn't "bitching" or disrespectful. Jeddy's right, just 'cos someone died, it doesn't make them a saint.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:16 AM

The heros we lionize says a great deal about ourselves.

EXCERPTS -

THE MAIL on-line August 27, 2009

Ted Kennedy: The Senator of Sleaze who was a drunk sexual bully... and left a young woman to die

By Charlie Laurence

A drunk Ted had been driving back from a party to the family 'compound' on Martha's Vineyard when he veered off a bridge and into a deep tidal dyke.

It was nine hours before he reported the accident. In the meantime, he walked back to his motel, complained to the manager about a noisy party, took a shower, went to sleep, ordered newspapers when he woke up and spoke to a friend and two lawyers before finally calling the police.

Divers later estimated that if he had called them immediately, they would have had time to pull out Mary Jo. She had not drowned, but had survived in an air pocket inside the car - she was asphyxiated only when the oxygen ran out several hours later.

As he entered the Senate, Kennedy was admired for his commanding 6ft 2in stature and the good looks that seemed a family blessing. But he was already drinking and womanising with the greed that has become known as a vice of Kennedy men.

His brothers got away with it, but Ted Kennedy's divorce removed the last bounds of shame and he plunged into a life that left him looking like a Saturday night drunk, waving a bottle and calling for any woman who could tolerate him. He staggered from scandal to scandal, reduced to fodder for lurid ' supermarket' tabloid newspapers.

One congressional aide, just 16, told of being propositioned by Kennedy from the back seat of his limousine in Capitol Hill. She testified that he leaned from the window, waved a wine bottle and asked whether she or a friend she was with wanted to join him.

He reeked of drink by nine in the morning and could be relied on to be bawling drunk at four in the afternoon. In Washington's top La Brasserie restaurant, he once threw a waitress over a table in a private room and tried to have sex with her.

His face, once handsome, became as round as a football, bloated and criss-crossed with the broken veins of an out-of-control drinker.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1209313/Ted-Kennedy-The-Senator-Sleaze-drunk-sexual-bully--left-young-woman-die.html

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:49 AM

LMAO......Thanks for that unbiased reporting Garg. I'm sure such a reliable reporting source such as The Mail with no agenda except the truth is to be believed by all.....of the dimwitted, dumbass, bigoted, shitkickers, the world over. Send Sharon a subscription on me. I'd be happy to get one for you but I think you already have one.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:56 AM

"It was nine hours before he reported the accident. In the meantime, he walked back to his motel, complained to the manager about a noisy party, took a shower, went to sleep, ordered newspapers when he woke up and spoke to a friend and two lawyers before finally calling the police.

Divers later estimated that if he had called them immediately, they would have had time to pull out Mary Jo. She had not drowned, but had survived in an air pocket inside the car - she was asphyxiated only when the oxygen ran out several hours later."

Not a fan of The Mail, but I was wondering if this statement is factually correct? If so, the incident is certainly worthy of comment in the context of an obituary.

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: jeddy
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 07:58 AM

isn't it about time to let sharon off now?

that 'report' sounds very one sided. still if it sold copies who cares whether it is balence and true? this is why i don't buy any papers, because you just get sensational stories with no basis in fact.

thanks C.S   no one is perfect and i would hate anyone to forget my flaws when i am gone, it would prove they really didn't know me at all. we are usually our own biggest critics and we judge ourselves the most harshly.

take care all

jade x x x x

Subject: RE: Obit: Sen. Edward M. 'Ted' Kennedy (1932-2009)
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Aug 09 - 08:16 AM

CS.......There is a plethora of books on the entire affair and not all agree what happened. Nor do the medical or police reports and analysis all agree.

Factually known? Kennedy was drunk and drove off the bridge. His passenger (for whatever reason), Mary Jo Kopechne dies as a result. Kennedy's actions were erratic in the aftermath and less than heroic. He expressed both regret and shame, but not in a timely fashion.

Beyond that, theories abound and every author seems to have one. Most claim they have uncovered new evidence which they really haven't. The truth of the night died with Kennedy and he well may have shared everything he actually knew....or not.

On the flip side, take a look at what bills he authored and the legislation he pushed through. Like I said, maybe we can never pay for our wrongs but he tried. He had both flaws and greatness. Many don't seem to see that or can't get past Mary Jo.

Spaw