The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:27 AM

Lizzie - I am curious about your involvement in Music !
Have you ever been a paid performer ? Have you ever run a Club , and have you ANY idea of the principle of 'Bums On Seats' which has SO much to do with who gets booked where and for how much money ?

As suggested previously , IF you dont like the way things are being run , then run a Club , or a Concert Series or (Heaven Forbid) a Festival , on the lines YOU want it run .

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 11:08 AM

Dick I do not attack Lizzie because she is Lizzie. I don't attack her at all. All that I ask is when she - or anyone else - makes a claim about something - that they say where the evidence is for that assertion.

Remembering this thread is supposedly about who gets booked at festivals, I cannot think of many festival organisers who are mainstream performers. The Sidmouth Festival director sings but is hardly known for it. Warwick's Festival Director is in Coventry Mummers. But low-key performance is understandable they are "folkies" after all. The Director of Celtic COnnections is a performer - I have never known him at an English Festival.

I don't know about folk club performers - if they sing in folk clubs they might agre to do some swapping. When I helped to run one we swapped floor singers wholesale. I thought that still went on. If the club organiser is a singer it is inevitable that people will appear in each other's club. That is hardly snouts in troughs - given the size of the trough.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:59 AM

Ultimately, what we put in to any endeavour in life should guide its outcome

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:56 AM

So, you show me evidence that it *doesn't* exist then, Dave.

No Lizzie you have the wrong end of the stick. I showed you evidence of something you were saying didn't exist. You asked for new young directors of folk festivals. There's one at Sidmouth under 45 - isn't that close to where you live? If you can't spot evidence on your own doorstep why should people believe in anything else you say.

I know of two long-established people at Whitby #folk Week have left this year first of all having been shadowed by and now replaced by two young people.

If you think it is hard breaking into the folk world try the rock, pop, or classical music world. It really isn't about secret handshakes - but it is about slogging up and down motorways, giving up well-paid jobs, sleeping in grotty accommodation, eating in greasy spoons and festival food and doing it for very little money. There were artists who did Sidmouth, Dartmoor, Bideford without a day off and then went to both Shrewsbury and Towersey. It's hard work.

As I said, I have the utmost respect for those who never 'sell out' simply to get ever higher up the folk ladder.

Now this is easy Lizzie, to produce evidence for this one. Top of the ladder and biggest folk attractions? Most festival organisers woud plump for Show of Hands, Bellowhead, Seth Lakeman. When did they sell out? You know all about SOH having been a big fan until recently. When did they sell out to become stars?

SGive us some examples of stars who have sold out. When did they do it?

Top of the bill this year - Spooky Men's Chorale from Australia. Just done a huge tour of the UK following up previous successes. Just driving their schedule would have been enough for most people never mind about radio and press interviews, rehearsals and oh! yes - living from a suitcase and performing for up to three or four hours per day.

Kate Rusby became a big star. I don't see any evidence of family connections there. Eliza Carthy's parents are in the business, but you cannot deny her talent. Paul Sartin's father was in the folk business - do you really think he could get into Belshazzar's Feast and Bellowhead on the strength of his dad's connections from the 60's and 70's. Perhaps being a music scholar at Oxford and an immense amount of talent helped.

All I ask is that you stop making wild allegations and claims unsupported by evidence. And to stop talking about things you really know nothing about.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:46 AM

Dave,
``Remarkably you spent the earlier part of this year saying how wonderful SOH were and I got the impression you wanted festivals to book them. Do you not want them top of the bill anymore? Have they said something to upset you?``
its comments like this,that prove you are badgering Lizzie.
you are being dishonest if you try to pretend that networking does not go on.
fortunately most folk club organisers,plough their own furrow,and are fiercely independent.
the sort of things that happen are someone gets work for someone in one country,that person fixes work for them in their own country.[that is called networking ,or you scratch my back I will scratch yours]
or a folk club organiser books another one in return for a return booking,or occasionally a festival organiser does it.
   although I must say I think the Festival organisers that do it are a very small minority.
and no, I am not prepared to name names [but that is not because I cant].
you are part of a clique that has continually attacked Lizzie on this forum,it is tedious, please give it a rest.
I disagree with much of what Lizzie says,but she has a right to express herself.
lizzies only fault appears to be over enthusiasm.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:25 AM

The BBC to my knowledge doesn't run any FFs

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 10:12 AM

I can't, Mr. Happy. The BBC banned me for life....and beyond.

I'd imagine that bloke who runs Smooth Ops had MORE than just a little something to do with that...and he runs the folk awards too...and he knows Ian Whoopsadaisy, who's also admitted to being one of the judges on the Folk Awards (year after year)...and so it goes on, and on and on....

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:48 AM

Try a petition?

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:46 AM

So, you show me evidence that it *doesn't* exist then, Dave.

I said way, way back, on the BBC board...to Colin, a friend of Diane's, who was in some band I can't recall the name of now....that for many, trying to get 'in' to the folk world was like trying to join the Masons. You could only do it if you knew someone, who knew someone who was already inside it...or you were related to them in some way...and then, of course, you had to be prepared to either wear the Silly Traditional Apron, or do the Silly Traditional Handshake in order to be let in beyond the radar.

Some are prepared to do that, just to 'get on'.....but others, those for whom I have the utmost respect, stick firmly to their belief in themselves, and soldier on, year after year, being left out in the cold. But, they'd rather be true to themselves, than crawl to the powers that be.

As I said, I have the utmost respect for those who never 'sell out' simply to get ever higher up the folk ladder.

The thing is, *no-one* should have to 'sell out' in the first place.

Evidence, Dave?

Well, look at the Folk Awards, the BBC ones, that is. So often the same old, same old, year after year...The Ol' Boys Network at its best.

For YEARS I asked the BBC if they'd spread the Awards out, make it so that only one Award goes to one artist, or band, each year, thus allowing far more people to win Awards, bringing in fresh blood, new life, young and old...and giving far more people an opportunity to have their careers helped by receiving a Folk Award.

But nope, on and on it goes, year after year.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:31 AM

..........oh & I forgot to say, I don't want to know anything about your life

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:28 AM

All the fests local to me have female Festival Directors.

Lizzie, I don't feel at that the issue's a gender thing.

Another way to influence what happens at fests is to get on the committee.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:23 AM

No Dick I don't know it is impossible to come up with evidence.

Lizzie wants to run her own festival and put on artists she wants thinks deserve to headline festivals.

I pointed out to two succesful festivals from over the past three years. so it is not impossible to do. She suggested venues where this might happen. I am happy to encourage her in this venture as would virtually all folk artists it would mean work for them after all.

I always find it quite amusing to see so many performers networking at folk festivals,

I am not sure what you mean by this Dick. Because I have a radio show and sell books on folk music I talk to artists at festvals. I talk to a lot of other people. I might be talking about books, about interviews, about forthcoming records, about past records, about what is happening where and when. I recently talked to an artist about some comments on a message board. I am not sure what else you want us to talk about. I was with a well-known folk artist yesterday: we talked football, and family. And folk music. Those are interests we share.

What would you like us to talk about so it wouldn't look as if people were networking?

lets stop pretending that the folk scene is the home of free music

I don't know anyone who does pretend. Some artists found in the sixties they were being asked to perform so they gave up a day job and took to the life of an itinerant singer. Some were succesful some weren't. That carries on. Some singers make a good living. Most have other jobs in my experience.

I am very lucky - here in Sheffield I can hear top class artists who people pay money to see and hear in my local pubs. So it is free. If I pay to go to a festival it isn't. That's it.

the folkscene is rife with little cliques

So let's hear some examples.

I do so dislike people who make wild statements with no evidence. You and Lizzie make a fine pair.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 09:09 AM

There's your answer for you, Dave.

Thank you, Dick.

I'm just saying that it happens. It happens a great deal. I've never stumbled across a world which is so cliquey, and so 'ruled' by those at the top, as the English Folk World is.

Don't forget, many of them clubbed together to hound me out of town, yourself included, as I recall, Dave. But it hasn't worked.

Seth Lakeman?

I don't screech about Seth these days, again, as well you know. He doesn't need me doing that anymore, he's recognised above and beyond the folk world now, thank goodness...and I wish him well.

It does p*ss me off, a great deal though, when other folks do not get the opportunities they should do, because of phobias within the folk world, particularly the so-called 'traditional' world, who won't have musicians because they perhaps went to the wrong 'type' of school, or once played the wrong 'type' of music, or speak with a 'posh' accent, or dared to once sign the wrong 'type' of record contract.

Is it vindictiveness, or inverted snobbery? Who knows, huh?

I also know of some musicians who are almost afraid of me bringing up these facts, in case I mention their names (I won't, so please don't panic anyone)....but why *should* those at the top have such power, when that power is so damaging and so wrong?

Why is the English Folk World so cliquey?

Why do people such as 'Ian you know who' assume he knows far more about 'what is folk', than others do?

Why do the (imo)often pitiful arss licking, worshippers who write on that site think they're in some kind of Secret Superior Society, when in actual fact, they're in nothing but a Society of vindictive, patronising, controlling unpleasantness? Quite frankly it saddens the hell out of me that SOH have decided to become part of that society these days, but such is life.

But this is not about them, it's about all the others out there, who have an abundance of talent, both as performers, writers, singers and musicians, who are overlooked year upon year, or put into the 'backroom' somewhere down the road, as a 'token gesture'....when they should damn well be on stage in the main arenas of our festivals, headlining, drawing in the crowds!

Unless there are people out there who are prepared to take the first step and put them on, how are they ever going to get to become major acts, as they deserve to be.

I'm just fed up with the folk equivalent of Naomi Campbell and Kate Moss, and would love to see new, fresh acts, new faces, some fairly well known faces too, but playing the top of the ladder for a change, where they should have played for years, but have been kept down by the Ol' Folk Boys & Girls Society.

Just my opinion though, so don't go getting yer knickers in a whatsit.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 08:49 AM

Dave,
you know its virtually impossible for anyone to come up with evidence.
so much of this back scratching is verbal, but that doesnt mean it doesnt happen

there is of course an old boys network,its probably not intentional,but it happens,the folkscene is no different from any other walk of life,be it Freemasons .RAOB,FreeForesters or whatever.
its called you scratch my back, ill scratch yours,and the folkscene is not exempt.
I always find it quite amusing to see so many performers networking at folk festivals,quite naturally everyone wants to get their noses in the trough,and quite naturally all those little piggies who have their noses in the trough,are not going to turn round and let the others.
lets stop pretending that the folk scene is the home of free music.
it is unfortunately rife with old boys networking,trying to prove it is however a waste of time ,and probably would only result in one group being replaced by another.
the folkscene is rife with little cliques,all jockeying for position,fortunately they often cancel each other out.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 09 - 07:51 AM

Lizzie, I really do not want to know about your life - as such. What I would like you to do when you make wild claims about "Old Boys Networks" and singers "Who have been shoved aside by "The Folk Network" is to produce some evidence such claims.

Apparently you know who the Old Boys Network consists of but unfortunately you have no idea of their names.

You want to see new young organisers. I pointed out that the Sidmouth Festival which is local to you, has a new organiser under 45 years of age and who has been appointed in the last year. I thought that was what you were asking for. Clearly words when you write them do not mean what most people think they mean - only what you say they mean.

Warwick has a young marketing manager.

Gate to Southwell and Shepley have only been going three years. Both headlined Show of Hands. A band you were contstantly asking for earlier this year and apparently you have now wiped them off your myspace. That'll upset them!

You have been screaming and raving about Seth Lakeman. Well he is on at Bromyard this coming weekend and headlines Shepley next May.

The fact is that what you say is not borne out by any facts that I recognise and I go to a lot of festivals.

I'd like to know how you have come to your conclusions and I thought listing the festivals/folk clubs that you have been to and seen evidence of this "Old Boys Networks" and "The Folk Network" at work would be the easiest way of doing it.

But if you have another way I would be delighted to read the evidence.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Anne Lister
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:57 PM

Any thought about the women out there too? Speaking as one, you understand ...

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:55 PM

Nope...I just don't give in to men who want to know more than they should about my life.

And now, back to the thread...

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:50 PM

Lizzie has backed herself into a corner.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: breezy
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 06:46 AM

steady up guys I sense Lizzie is being backed into a corner,

chill

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 06:35 AM

Mr Happy & the Gloom Band [& our larger enhanced lineup Mr Happy & the Misericords] have attended over a dozen fests & gatherings this year, as we do most years.

I agree with you Lizzie that there's a certain sameyness about the guest lineups, but since we're attending fests as 'fringers' for the various impromptu seshes which occur both within the main fest & on the periphery in pubs & other venues, we seldom if ever go to concerts, preferring to join with & listen to other fringers.

We run our own informal weekly sesh in the local area for allcomers, no paid guests, & its proved very popular.

In addition, for the last 5/6 years have organised a DIY event in the Peak District on the Easter Bank Holiday, based on a real ale pub + camping, though this time proved far too popular numberswise in that the pub was too small to accommodate the many visiting singers, musicians & audients!

We've now negotiated a new larger premises & campsite for next Easter.


What I'd suggest to you, Lizzie, is that if you're unhappy with what's currently on offer - get out there & do your own thing!!

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Sep 09 - 04:52 AM

so it's time for the Old Boys Folk Network to get new blood into its Organisers and change a few of the Headlining acts,

I do believe the person who books for Sidmouth is in their first year in the job and is under 45.

At Whitby they have changed management in the couple of years with the retirement of Malcolm Storey.

As I pointed out Shepley and Gate to Southwell are only three (coming up to four) years old.

The Old Boy network seems to be crumbling Lizzie - isn't that what you want?

So come on Lizzie which festivals are you talking about that need new blood?

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:22 PM

I dunno their names, but they're the folks who keep booking the same ol' acts, Dave

Well I have been to the previous three Gate to Southwell festivals and and the previous three Shepley Festivals. They are handy for where I live. And they have both had different headline acts each year.

Organisers book who they think will sell tickets, commensurate with availability, price and size of festival.

The same person will be a headline act at a small festival and a lesser act at a large festival.

Lizzie now you have told us that you don't know the names of the "The Folk Network" of which you spoke in the first post, perhaps you would be good enough to tell us which festivals you have been to this year and who were the headline acts at each one?

It will enable people to judge what evidence your opinion is based on.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:14 PM

Quality can't always rise, if it's kept down, breezy.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: breezy
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:52 PM

The Hob gob feat in Wadebridge certainly had a very fresh appearance this year again inc Reg Neurosis[a poor joke so calm down one and all]

In my belief its not a 'network ' as such but organisers do tend to book familiar names from year to year and its their choice and probably they know what works best and it is their fest so butt out.

Quality will will rise , eventually, one hopes, but not always.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:32 PM

http://www.dickmiles.com http://www.dickmiles.com
I am not sure if I qualify as an old boy.

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 06:22 PM

I dunno their names, but they're the folks who keep booking the same ol' acts, Dave.

Have Show of Who, upset me? Course not. I merely wiped them orf me Myspace page because I don't waste my words on those who don't appreciate them. I'm still desperately eager to read some words about them from their new fans though, over on fRoots...and I bet Ian A. has them lined up for a double page spread, so I can't wait to see that.   

I just get this sense of deja vu when it's the same old, same old, year upon year..same songs, same format, same festivals, same marquees.

There are so many talented people out there, with so much to offer, and it's just not fair that they don't get to headline, when they have talent bursting out.

You know, it's a strange world these days. Take modelling, or acting; you seem to have around 10 people who dominate their 'worlds' and that's all you get to hear about, yet the world is filled with beautiful women, fantastic actors, but nope, the same old faces.

Once, we had far more variety around, but even the folk world has fallen prey to the same few top acts, when 'top acts' abound in this musical world.

Perhaps it needs the folk world to break the mould, take a deep breath and put on some of the people they *know* have huge talent, headline them.

I bet, if you wrote down the current headline acts of the folk world, many of us would say that we'd seen them over and again, yet so many more are struggling to get their music heard, and they richly deserve to *have* their music heard, but time and again, they're put into small pubs or clubs, somewhere down the road....when actually, they have the talent to fill the biggest marquees.

Maybe we need a Back to Front Festival, where the big acts play the small venues and vice versa. Now that would be a bit different, wouldn't it! :0)

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 04:09 PM

So, why didn't Shepley and Southwell book some new blood for their headline acts?

Remarkably you spent the earlier part of this year saying how wonderful SOH were and I got the impression you wanted festivals to book them. Do you not want them top of the bill anymore? Have they said something to upset you?

Shepley have Seth Lakeman in 2010. Are you saying they shouldn't book him?

So let me ask again - who is in this old boys' network of which you speak?

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:24 PM

The Tie, Banji...?

Here you go....


The Ol' Boys 2009 Folk Network Tie


;0)

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:18 PM

So, why didn't Shepley and Southwell book some new blood for their headline acts?

See? Same old, same old...wherever you go...

Do you think Torquay is ready for a folk festival?    I think it is.

I think it would give the footballers wives and the BMW drivers, alongside the oiks and the 'Ooh I have soooooo much money!' boats owners a new outlook on life.....and hey, it could be held on the water!

Torquay desperately needs some magic and spirit sprinkled over it...and as Sidmouth has become sooooo old, grumpy and cruddy, well, I think that maybe the new venue for The Firey Folk Festival of Great Britain should be.....The English Riviera!

We could have The Demon Barber Roadshow doing 'Riviera Dance'...wowing them all down on the Quayside...and we could infiltrate McDonalds, sing them songs about Corporate Businessmen. At night, we could have the equivalent of The Ham, down in Kents Cavern! Can you just imagine the acoustics in those caves? Incredible!

Cockington Park, now that would make the best venue of all, amongst the thatched houses and the Blacksmith's cottage, the horse and carriage taking people around the village...Lutyen's pub taking the place of The Bedford....yes, we could have a singaround in The Drum Inn....and the headline acts could play with the background of the lakes behind them...

Oh wow, Duncan's electric folk band inside Kents Cavern! I mean, they nearly brought the house down at The Ham a few years back, they'd be sensational there...

My head is whizzing with ideas!

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Banjiman
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:17 PM

Where do you get the tie from, I want to join?

Seriously Lizzie, don't just shout about the music you believe on forums where we have all heard (or at least heard of) it, get out there and do as you say.

I started a folk club (which runs 2 weekenders) to give some breaks to the acts I believe in or am involved with. Certainly ain't part of any old boys network. I've booked Tom & Dunc as well.

Your biggest challenge will be getting an audience............but you can do it!

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Aeola
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:06 PM

Maybe more feedback to the Festival committees?

Subject: RE: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 03:01 PM

Lizzie, you do not need a lot to start a folk festival.

Both Shepley and Gate to Southwell both of whom booked Show of Hands as headline acts this year are only three years old and started from scratch.

Last time you mentioned your own radio show I offered you a route to doing it and what skills and knowledge you might need.

George, Duncan and Tom have all featured on my radio show, interviews and records.

Who and what is this "Folk Network" of which you speak? Name names.

Subject: The Ol Boys Folk Club & Festival Network
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 07 Sep 09 - 07:52 AM

OK, I'm back on the internet and raging at the thought of Tom Bliss no longer singing, because he can't make a living from it.

This is the message I put on his thread a few moments ago:

Tom, are you ready to do a Sinatra yet?

You CANNOT stop singing your songs! Great to hear others singing them, but heck, you should be singing them too.

To all you Festival Organisers out there, this man should be up there headlining your festivals!   

Yeesh, I sooo need my own festival, my own radio station...AAARRRRGHHH!

Tom, put your hands over your ears for a minute...

Talented people such as Tom should not have to give up singing their songs because they can't make a living from them, it's just not right.

He should be headlining Sidmouth and all the other major festivals, as should George Papavgeris...not in the backrooms, but on the main stages. I know talent when I see and hear it and both of these guys are swimming in it, as is Duncan McFarlane and his band....so it's time for the Old Boys Folk Network to get new blood into its Organisers and change a few of the Headlining acts, instead of putting on the same old people, year after, yawning year...

Bring BACK Tom Bliss, and bring on George and Duncan too...

So, I'm sorry if this upsets some people, but there are some people, running some festivals, who need a turnip shoved up their bums, because year after year after year, the same ol' people are booked as headlining acts at the same ol' festivals.

In the Folk World, same as everywhere else, it seems it's not what you do, but who you know, that gets you into the folk clubs and festivals.

I WANT to see Tom, George and Duncan headlining festivals, and others too...It's time to move on and give others a chance...

Reg Meuross is another performer who blows folks away in amazement with his songs, but again, is Reg given headlining gigs? Nope..in fact there are those in here who do what they can to put his songs down....

Well, sod 'em...It's time the Folk World woke up to all the other talent around, instead of the closed shop, old anti-public schoolboys network, which is just as controlling as anywhere else....

Time to blast it all apart and put on some acts that the public want to see.

I am sooo tired of the same old same old same old...give me new blood, give me wonderful songwriters, give me professional musicians and singers who, for WAY TOO LONG, have been shoved aside by The Folk Network.

Anyway, that's my opinion....how about yours?