 sj |
||
|
||
Bible prophecy
|
|
|
Subject: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 04:42 PM Since God ( who created time ) stands apart from time and views the beginning as well as the end all in one glance ( beyond human comprehension ) I find it interesting to consider the claims in the scripture concerning what has yet to happen .. we know that some day Antichrist will appear .. but how close could he be ? .. what does the bible claim about the characteristics of mankind in the latter days ? .. are we close to obtaining the knowledge the power and the will of placing a mark on every human being ? I would like to invite the comments and speculations of those who believe the scriptures . . . . . with ears to the ground and eyes to the sky . . . I am so much anticipating this blessed promise .. although I am not excited of what lies just ahead .. the seven years of tribulation .. but I think the rapture might occur before that event . . . anyhow .. I do ramble on . . . . the ball is in your court |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: VirginiaTam Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:01 PM this belongs in the BS section because it most assuredly is supreme bullshit. humankind has created his own tribulation just as he created a god to blame it on. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Paul Burke Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM Qishing the end of the world, and lots of people sent to eternal torment. BS. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:04 PM "humankind has created his own tribulation" . . . this is true .. but you aint seen nothin yet .. peace |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: robomatic Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:05 PM millions of people long for eternal life, who do not know what to do with a rainy weekend. by which I mean I deeply believe that the concern of the end times and the latter days are one of the great wastes of time of mankind. Very very similar to reading the people magazines and watching the entertainment tonite programs. On one extreme we've got stuff that doesn't matter about people who don't know me. At the other extreme we've got tales of the gods and their strivings and score settlings which likewise do not concern me. The hard job of life is exercizing what minimal controls I have over my own life, and trying to be an adequate friend and relative to those folks who do know me and I'd like to have the good opinions of. So go enjoy the hell out of your rapture, I understand it's gonna be a real hoot. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:06 PM "(W) Qishing the end of the world," . . . please explain |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:07 PM notice ladies and gentlemen how these folk are full of hatred .. all mouth and no ear . . . typical |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Sorcha Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:10 PM You make me tired. Find a religious forum. Go away. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Tunesmith Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM You're all mouth and no brain! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:11 PM "You make me tired. Find a religious forum. Go away" why do you fear me ?? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:13 PM "You're all mouth and no brain" why do you say so . . . I'm curious |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:16 PM "humankind has created his own tribulation just as he created a god to blame it on" So what do you believe I blame God for ?? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Tunesmith Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:17 PM No you're not! You're just trying to get a debate going, but I haven't the desire to discuss fairy tales. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:22 PM "No you're not! You're just trying to get a debate going, but I haven't the desire to discuss fairy tales." well .. then go to another thread .. I did'nt drag you here |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:24 PM peace to all who post ( in a positive mannor ) REAL ANSWERS |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: VirginiaTam Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:26 PM I am not full of hate. Far from it. But I do fear extremism. Social groups, governments and individuals, hurt, maim, use, kill their fellow human beings in the name of religion. At the very least they exclude others not like themselves and that is a psychic and spiritual murder. I used to be one of the blind and intolerant masses, believing in and spouting scripture until I got a wake up call. A long hard time of self-reflection and not liking what I saw. I am now a recovering baptist. I won't fall off the wagon and back into the pew, I can tell you. For your information, there is no torment like losing a child. The fire and brimstone of the biblical hell would be a nice distraction from the pain I am in. Now talk about music or bugger off to the BS section. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:31 PM I foun this to be very interesting .. Matthew 24: 03 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age? 04 Jesus answered: Watch out that no-one deceives you. 05 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 06 You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 07 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 08 All these are the beginning of birth-pains. 09 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. a centry of quakes |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:34 PM Look .. I don't mean to antagonize anyone here .. just a discussion PS: I am very sorry for your loss |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:38 PM I have 3 sons .. 21 - 19 and 17 . . . The greatest pain I could ever imagine would be to loose one of them |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:40 PM Look guys, when the Jehovah's Witnesses knock on your door, you don't answer; right! Do the same here. JM |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:44 PM So, who's gonna BURN in this brilliant blessing? Any of those fundamentalist American Christians out there who preach hatred, and want God to smash in the face of the American President etc. going to be purged? Or is it only going to be all the peaceful and loving Buddhists, Sufi's and Hari Krisna's et al burning in molten blood and stuff? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Georgiansilver Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:45 PM Let he who has eyes to see , see...... and he who has ears to hear, hear....... understanding only comes from being involved... being there.... being a part of what is truth. Many choose not to be a part of it because of their own understanding or lack of it!!!!..... The Bible does point to the happenings which signal the "End Times" and some of these are indicated in hidigibaughs post at 05.31....... Even when confronted with the truth there are those who ridicule it or try to discredit it..... Everyone makes their own choices in life.... There are still some on here who tried to ridicule my Christian belief when I first joined the 'Cat'.... Maybe they thought I was some sort of crank..... At the moment I am glad to be in Gods camp.... I truly believe the End times are here and am ready..... who else is??? Best wishes, Mike. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:51 PM That would be the real issue ( when it's all said and done ) Who do we believe that Jesus is ?? . . . I believe that he is the Christ .. the only begotten Son of the one true and living God . . . . looking forward to his return . . . blessings to Mike |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Spleen Cringe Date: 11 Oct 09 - 05:59 PM Why is this in the music section? Far as I can see it ain't a discussion about music, unless someone's planning on pulling out the heavenly trumpets... is there such a thing as a religious troll? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: GUEST,Bill D--still out of town Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:03 PM hidi...you are new here. We do not DO this sort of ersatz 'discussion' on Mudcat. It is thinly disguised preaching. "Since God ( who created time ) ... etc....this makes an assumption which is not shared by everyone. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: TheSnail Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:13 PM Prize the Lard! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:16 PM Did someone call for Trumpets and heavenly harps of infinite ecstasy*!? Well synthasisers might sorta have to do, but hey we're no longer Medieavalists! You know it makes sense! *MDMA is an officially recommended safety measure, before exposing oneself to Christian folk rock. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Lox Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:32 PM The initial post is a question within the context of christian belief. Looks to me like its aimed at christians. It shouldn't be in the music section, but if any christians wish to contribute they shouldn't feel hindered by non-christians who aren't don't want to discuss an intra christianity issue. I personally don't understnd it, but there you go. Good luck to those who do. I would say that I understand Christianity to be a poor mans religion and therefore to intellectualize it is to miss the point. Take care folks. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Andrez Date: 11 Oct 09 - 06:59 PM Yes shift this rubbish off the music pages!!!! But in the meantime I was inspired to track down a copy of one of my favourite books: Prophecy for Dummies. To give folks a feel for the tone I include the introduction below as well as a testimonial as to the value of the tome. "Before I read this guide, I was a divorced, homeless teacher's aide. Since then, I've gotten spectacular wealth, resounding fame, and a hot new wife the likes of which I couldn't dream of. Just look at me now! Thank you, Prophecy for Dummies!" - One of many satisfied readers" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Prophecy for Dummies by Allan Glenn [v.1.9.3; Last updated June 4, 2004] Moses, Elisha, Zoroaster, Orpheus, Muhammad, Jesus Christ, Alexander of Abonutichus, Nostradamus, Joseph Smith, Baha'u'llah, Edgar Cayce, Sylvia Browne... Have you ever wondered how some of these and other legendary figures gained their reputation and followers? More importantly, would you like to follow in their footsteps and preserve your name for future generations to revere? Do you want worship, power, wealth, the ability to amaze friends, family and attractive females with psychic insights? (Come now; who doesn't? !) With those goals in mind, close the door, shut the blinds, light 12 candles, turn out the lights, and read on to understand arcane secrets of the universe that will grant you supernatural insight into the future. This guide, Prophecy for Dummies, is a simple, concise and effective resource for jump-starting your religion, gaining or adding to your mythical reputation, obtaining additional followers, and many other worthwhile goals. It lists all of the major ways that preternatural knowledge of future events can be obtained in a detailed and easily understood fashion. No longer will you need a lengthy and exhausting initiation into a mystery religion or years of apprenticeship under a veteran Prophet. Many have found going out on their own a liberating and rewarding experience; with thorough knowledge of the ways of the Prophet, and hopefully a bit of luck, so will you. Disclaimer: This is a guide for beginning and intermediate Prophets. You may be a complete newbie, or merely need some brushing-up on your prophetic skills. While these esoteric techniques and helpful tips are time-tested classics, you agree that they're carried out entirely at your own risk. The author of this webpage will bear no responsibility for any mundane negative consequences (lynching, stoning, crucifixion) or otherworldly wrath (demonic possession, curses laid by competing Prophets, Hell, etc.) of any type incurred as a result of following this guide. If you do not accept this disclaimer, please close the webpage now. Otherwise, read on for the hidden mysteries of Prophecy.... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The author Allen Glenn (WinAce) sadly died of cystic fibrosis a few years ago. Here is a link telling a little more about who he was. WinAce I down loaded a copy around that time. If anyone wants to PM me with a real email address I'll happily forward a copy of the compete pdf file. More importantly though is there anyone out there who would like to host a copy of Prophecy for Dummies on their own website so the info in PFD can keep getting out? Cheers, Andrez |
|
Subject: didn't mean to scare you From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 07:05 PM sorry .. my bad .. it was my first thread .. I did't see how to place the thread in the non-music section .. I'll re-create it there .. peace =:0] |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Peace Date: 11 Oct 09 - 07:28 PM Well, this ol' boy ain't gonna trash your views hidigibaugh. Very very good friend named GeorgianSilver has spent hours at various times keeping my spirits up and he's a believer like you. Cool by me. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Tug the Cox Date: 11 Oct 09 - 07:43 PM A believer in what, anything at all, or are there some sort of criteria for reasonabl beliefs? |
|
Subject: children of God From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 07:51 PM QUOTE = Very very good friend named GeorgianSilver has spent hours at various times keeping my spirits up and he's a believer like you. Cool by me. COMMENT = Right-on brothers .. right-on QUOTE = A believer in what, anything at all, or are there some sort of criteria for reasonabl beliefs? COMMENT = more reasonable criteria than I'll ever be able to deal with in this life-time . . . maybe that is why God gave us eternity |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Janie Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:22 PM hidigibaugh, I see you just joined Mudcat late this afternoon, with your first post being to the thread on the radical religious right, and all other posts to this thread which you started. I don't trash your beliefs either, but if you had a done of search of threads, you would have found there have been threads going back for years and years of this same ilk, and they nearly always turn into food fights. This, in my opinion, is because so many people, whether people of faith or not, fail to distinquish between belief and objective fact in the manner in which they express themselves. I see that you are following in that pattern. And I am assuming you are unaware of how many times we in this community have been around this circle. What this international community has in common is a love of folk, traditional, and blues music. It is the glue that holds us together. Beyond that, while a majority of us are politically liberal, with a few conservatives and a generous smattering of libertarians, we hold views regarding faith and/or religion, and just about anything else that people have opinions or beliefs about, that run the full spectrum. I am assuming that since this is a folk music site that you would not have joined unless you also share that overriding interest, and have not joined primarily for the purpose of proselytizing. And since that is my assumption, I look forward to reading your posts to issues related to music and folklore. I am aware I am making a lot of assumptions, but I think it good to give people the benefit of doubt. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:32 PM Dear Janie .. well .. when I came here .. I notice your thread about the religious right .. basically noting but trashing Christians and people of faith .. if you want to discourage this kind of discussion .. maybe you should start with them ?? .. I am not here attempting to trash anyones belief .. simply to defend my own . . . peace as you can see .. I would continue and discussion in your non-music section . . . this will all for me in this section .. thank you very much .. hidigibaugh !!! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:47 PM this thread should be deleted =:0] |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Janie Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:49 PM Actually, hidigibaugh, I did not start, nor have I posted to the aforementioned thread. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Janie Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:51 PM The mods have cleaned things up now, h. Your second, duplicate thread has been deleted. Takes awhile to figure out how things work, eh? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: katlaughing Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:54 PM hidigibaugh, I deleted your duplicate thread. It is not necessary to start a new one. All that needed to be done was for one us moderators to be alerted so we could move it to the BS section. One of the members let me know, so I moved your original thread to this section as you will see whilst reading this. I might say that I think you may have missed some of Janie's point and that is, first and foremost, we are a community of folk and blues music lovers/musicians/singers. We have an occasional melee over all manner of subjects in the BS section, but you will find 1) you will have more credence if you have been here long enough to get your feet wet before starting a controversial thread such as this and, 2)let us know how you may relate to the rest of us, music-wise. Otherwise, if you are trolling the internet just looking for places to post defending your choice of religion, I'd say you might want to go elsewhere...perhaps you should check out www.belief.net. kat, mod |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Donuel Date: 11 Oct 09 - 08:58 PM Which Bible??????????????? There are thousands of different texts and versions despite the warning at the the end of Eziecal that no one shall make a copy of the Bible that has any additions or deletions from the original Bible. That decree has been broken a million times over. There is now an official Conservative Bible in which rich men do pass through the eye of the needle. The rich do inherit the Earth. Frankly some parts of Palins book sound like an addition to the new testament. Speakin fer God is not just a prechers job doncha know. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 09 - 09:32 PM hidigibaugh - You have just stepped into the lion's den! ;-) Or the hallowed halls of the Inquisition, perhaps...you DARED to post some religious stuff here that a lot of people here disagree with. Oooo-weee! Big fuss going on! Well, I may not agree with all your ideas...and I may not belong to your particular form of faith...but I'm not threatened in the least by calmly discussing it with you nor do I feel that this is an opportunity to prove how "bad" you are by deluging you in insults and demands that you not post here. My, my. What a terrible fuss it is when an "outsider" steps in. I will now give you my best answers I can come up with to your initial post: "Since God ( who created time ) stands apart from time and views the beginning as well as the end all in one glance..." Hmm. Well, yes, if there IS a God in the sense that you mean it when you use that word, then he (or she) would indeed stand apart from time. At least I think so. And he (or she) (or it) would view the beginning as well as the end all in one glance...so to speak. But I don't know if there is an individualized divine being like that whom one could call "God". There may be. Many people think so. I'm not saying there isn't. I just don't know for sure. There might be an overall system of divine being out there...or intelligence...but if so, is it individualized in that fashion? I don't know. I think there's something that gives the Universe coherence and meaning all right, but I don't know if it fits the traditional Christian idea of "God". Okay, let's move on from there... *** "I find it interesting to consider the claims in the scripture concerning what has yet to happen .. *** So do I. But I don't know if that scripture is literally true...or symbolically true...or whatever. I don't know if it's partially true and partially not, nor do I know if it was intended for the presnt time, an earlier time, or a time far in the future...or all three. I also find Buddhist scripture and Hindu scripture and various other scriptures equally interesting...if not moreso...and again...I don't know if there are wholly true, partly true, or what time period they allude to. *** "we know that some day Antichrist will appear" *** Do we? I don't think so. We may think we know that, because we've read it somewhere in some holy book. It may be true, it may not be. It's an interesting idea. *** "but how close could he be ?" *** That's difficult to say. I see no way of being sure about it. *** ".. what does the bible claim about the characteristics of mankind in the latter days ? *** I've read the scripture you refer to about that. It refers to a decadent time in society...and that time could well be the present. It could also. however, be at a great many other times in the past recorded history, because there have been a whole series of declines into decadence in various great societies of the past 2,000 years. It could also be in some distant future. Hard to say. *** ".. are we close to obtaining the knowledge the power and the will of placing a mark on every human being ?" Yes we are. At least we are in the developed societies. It could be done by very tiny microchip implants, for instance. It could be done in a number of ways. There's no way it would reach every single human being on this planet because there are natives in jungles whom it wouldn't reach and other people in remote areas like that, but it could certainly reach the vast majority of citizens in the developed countries of the world. *** "I would like to invite the comments and speculations of those who believe the scriptures . . . . ." I don't necessarily believe them in their entirety. Neither do I necessarily deny them. I give them due consideration and am interested in different interpretations...just as I am interested in the Buddhist scriptures, the Hindu scriptures, the Sufi philosophy, the Mayan predictions, the Hopi prophecies, etc. I find it all interesting. I look for correlations and similarities where they can be found. If one is searching out a diamond, one looks under every available stone, not just under the single stone one was told about by one's parents or one's cultural peer group. " |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 09:44 PM boy .. he sure told me .. didn't he . . . sheeesh !! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Janie Date: 11 Oct 09 - 09:45 PM Thoughtful post, LH. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Janie Date: 11 Oct 09 - 09:52 PM Huh? Are you responding to Little Hawk's post, hidigibaugh? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 09 - 10:59 PM Regarding interpretations of the Bible...there are a great many of those. It depends on which Christians you talk to about it. Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, do not believe Jesus was crucified on a cross! They think he was impaled on a wooden stake. If you read their Bible, you will find that the ancient writings (whether in Greek or Hebrew) have been translated by the elders of the Jehovah's Witnesses in such a way that there is no mention of Christ being crucified, but there is mention of him being "impaled"...on a stake. They also do not believe at all in the Trinity, but they do believe Jesus died as a ransom for the sins of humanity. This is quite unusual. But the JV's are just as sure their translation is correct as any other Christians are. And I'm sure they are quite sincere in their belief. Then there is also much evidence that the original Bible writings were edited and changed by the bishops in Constantinople. They edited out the stuff they didn't like and put in new stuff, and they had various political reasons for doing so. Accordingly, the modern Bible is neither complete nor is it an entirely accurate translation of the original writings. If one directly experiences something profoundly spiritual, however, (and I know people who have...) that weighs a lot stronger than a 2,000-year-old bunch of edited books and learned doctrine, let me tell you! Nothing speaks more powerfully to a person's core beliefs than direct experience. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Oct 09 - 11:07 PM Hidigbaugh, I think you answered your question in your first post - any answer would be sheer speculation, and what good is that? People come up with all sorts of weird extrapolations from the Book of Revelation. Jesus said you know neither the day nor the hour (Mt. 25:13), and I think that means we shouldn't concern ourselves with speculation and extrapolation. As Jesus says in Matthew 25, we should concern ourselves with feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. I believe the day will come when it comes, and it will be good. For now, I live a good life and try not to concern myself with the future. We don't have a rule against this sort of thread, so I won't delete it unless it gets nasty. However, I think it is impolite of you to come in today as a new member and right away start spouting off about religion in very sectarian terms. Our threads are supposed to be open discussions for all members of our community, and your thread excludes the great majority of the established members of our community. Please don't start any more religion threads. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 09 - 11:12 PM Oh, here's another belief held by the JV's. They do not believe that "Hell" is anything but "the grave". Why? Well, the Hebrew word "sheol" is used in the Bible to mean "hell", and the JV's scholars say that that word simply means "the grave". They think that a limited number of very good people will go into heaven to be with God when the present system in the world ends...I believe it's 144,000 who will presumably do that. They think that many millions of other good people will get to live an eternal life in perfectly healthy and young physical bodies on a planet Earth which has been transformed into a paradise with no war, no poverty, no aging, no suffering, and so on. As for those who don't make it, they will simply rest in the grave. No punishment. No consciousness at all. Just lying in their graves. Again, the JV's are notably different from a great many other Christians in having such beliefs. I find it all quite interesting, although I don't really share their views on any of it. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Oct 09 - 11:23 PM So, Little Hawk, who are these JV's you're talking about - Jehovah's Vitnesses? America wants to know. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Donuel Date: 11 Oct 09 - 11:29 PM The only time rapture is mentioned in the Bible was in reference to having sex. Rapture is a recent evangelical cult invention. Only a troll would present a compendium of biblical falsehoods but people like that kind of entertainment from time to time. Now how about the chapter in the bible that speaks of our precious bodily fluids? Or was that a section in the Palin book? |
|
Subject: whadever From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 11:33 PM my mama told me . . . never argue with crazy people |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 09 - 11:34 PM Yes, the Jehovah's Witnesses is who I mean, Joe. The interesting thing is, I've known a lot of JV's. In general I have found them to be very good people in a moral sense, very honest and harmless people, good neighbors, but awfully set on prosetylizing and awfully dependent on their little books...and I don't particularly agree with that approach to religion. I think it's better to simply set a good example by your general behaviour and let other people come to you rather than go around trying to convert everyone to your own way of thinking. If the example you set is good enough, then many people will naturally be interested in what you believe and they WILL come to you. Most of the JV's I've known have a simple sort of faith that seems almost childlike to me....BUT...and this is a big but...I've known a couple of them who are tremendously smart and capable people, and among the finest people I've ever known. Why do they believe as they do? (shrug) I don't know. All I know is that you can find a great range of people within any belief system, and a few of them will be quite remarkle individuals. Therefore I judge NO ONE by his or her stated beliefs...but only by his or her actual behaviour. "by their fruits shall ye know them" If they are kind, generous, helpful, and honest, then they're all right with me. |
|
Subject: JWs exposed From: hidigibaugh Date: 11 Oct 09 - 11:47 PM In a manner similar to Mormonism, JW's believe that their organization is the only true Christian organization. They believe that the truths of scripture were lost through a great apostasy centuries ago until God used Charles Russell to restore the gospel. JW shares some doctrinal beliefs with Christianity, but most of their beliefs either completely contradict, or at least pervert Biblical truths. The New World Translation: The Corrupt Bible of the Watchtower Society Jehovah's Witnesses vs. Christianity Chart Questions for Jehovah's Witnesses Testimony: From The Watchtower To Christ |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 11 Oct 09 - 11:59 PM Yes, that's the way they would be seen by most Christian groups, for sure. They, however, believe they're onto the right thing. In that respect they are much like people in quite a few other religions who also believe they're onto the right thing. Then you have the people in political parties and in armies. ;-) They also believe they're onto the right thing. Everyone basically sticks up for whatever they believe is true and is valuable. Agreed? But they all have different ideas about what IS true and valuable. And so they disagree. This doesn't worry me in the least as long as they don't harm anyone over a disagreement. As I said, as long as people are honest, kind, generous, and helpful, then they're all right with me. I'm not interested in looking all over for enemies when there are many friends to be found. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Donuel Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:10 AM I judge that gibson is at it again. Little Hawk should judge people on stated beliefs especially when those beliefs are stated as facts such as the rapture being taught in the bible when it just isn't there and never has been. I judge that as either being ignorant or stupid. Ignorance can be cured. I honestly do not think such a disjointed initial statement and false exposition on the bible was made in good faith. Religious instruction often declares that learning from non religiously approved books is forbidden. It happens in all sorts of religions. If an actual neophyte Christian wants to learn of the original teachings of Christ, untinged by political fundamentalists I suppose this could be a good place to start. Calamity and great destruction is often mentioned in he old testament, the rapture is not mentioned. Where did it go? It waited until 1890 when an Englishman invented it and began peddling it in his new religious cult. The new evangelical cultists have only been around a short while. My mom also said stay away from crazy people. The ball may be in our court but I still suspect it wasn't a ball after all, it was a wax lemon. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:20 AM You're not following me, Don. When I say I don't judge people on their stated beliefs, I meant it. I judge them on their behaviour! Behaviour that includes conscious lying is very wrongful behaviour, and I judge it so. But if someone tells a falsehood that he doesn't know is a falsehood then he's innocent of any wrongful intention. He may be ignorant, he may be misinformed, but if he is that doesn't mean he's a bad person. It just means he's misinformed, period. And you know what? I bet every single one of us here is misinformed about at least a few things, although we all seem to think that when we walked through the door..."the smartest person here just entered the room". Well, that's just common human egotism, and it's the most common disease that ever infected mankind. You may be quite right that the poster who started this thread is just playing games. Perhaps so. But why get so worked up over it? Do you really think it's going to change anything here? Or change anyone here? Or make any difference whatsoever to the destiny of humankind? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:28 AM Is the person who started this thread a member of the radical religious right? If not, then there is no reason for them to take anything said in the thread I started on the subject of the radical religious right personally. If they are, well, that's different. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:38 AM I would also point out that my thread is not nothing but trashing people of faith. I happen to be a person of faith myself (not the Christian faith), and I have no interest in trashing people for having some kind of faith. What I have a problem with is the political use that some people put their faith to, and that is what my thread is about. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bryn Pugh Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:37 AM My own view, for what that is worth, is that the 'Cat is for music lovers, not god-botherers. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: TheSnail Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:53 AM hidigibaugh my mama told me . . . never argue with crazy people She was right. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: theleveller Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:23 AM Personally, I think the bible should have a health warning printed on it. Religion can be fatal |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: John MacKenzie Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:37 AM There is no god, he is an invention to help those who cannot cope with real life. It's so they can have someone to blame for their shortcomings. To listen to some religious adherant try to justify why their loving, all seeing god, allows things like earthquakes and floods to happen, killing so many innocent people. Is like watching a dog lick it's own arse. Just recirculating shit. JM |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Stu Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:39 AM I just heard a Jerry Lee Lewis track on the radio. Now he is God. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Eric the Viking Date: 12 Oct 09 - 06:46 AM John.that just about sums it up for me ! But Sugarfoot you are wrong, Eric Clapton IS God! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: John MacKenzie Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:04 AM Slowhand-Sugarfoot? Shurely there musht be shome mishtake Mish Moneypenny? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:07 AM "To listen to some religious adherant try to justify why their loving, all seeing god, allows things like earthquakes and floods to happen, killing so many innocent people. Is like watching a dog lick it's own arse." With specific reference to the premise of the initial posting, what is most worrying about these extreme American 'End Timers' who long for the 'Rapture', is that they politically wish to actively *encourage an escalation of war and ultimate apocalyptic global conflict*, because it'll mean Jesus will come and whisk them personally out of it all, that much sooner! I have no problem with someone else believing in the logical inconsistency of an all loving, all good, omniscient and omnipotent god, who nevertheless allows massive suffering because we don't understand his weird expression of love, so long that belief impacts on my life not at all. But I do find it profoundly worrying when there are politically active religious zealots in one of the most powerful countries in the world, who literally want to bring about world armageddon as quickly as possible, in order to fulfill their extreme religious fantasies. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Jack Blandiver Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:44 AM My own view, for what that is worth, is that the 'Cat is for music lovers, not god-botherers. Now that's an odd comment from one who frequently posts messages reflecting his particular religious leanings... Otherwise - the only thing that bothers me about religion is that the faithful invariably feel their particular truth is somehow absolute enough to be transferable - or that anyone else is interested anyway. Still, we've been here before dozens of times: BS: Nurse Suspended for praying ???? BS: Religious Canvassers etc. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bryn Pugh Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:37 AM If you don't like what I post, Sweeeney, don't read it. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Jack Blandiver Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:42 AM I'm not saying I don't like it, Bryn - just wondering how you can say what you did when you do pretty much the same. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bob the Postman Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:13 AM Re Donuel's post of 12 Oct 09 - 12:10 AM: "I judge that gibson is at it again." That's what I thought too when I first opened this thread yesterday. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:16 AM Ya know it starts to get annoying. There are many folks here on mudcat that are people of faith. Myself included. Did you ever see any one of us ever throw our belief system in your face ... not once... Have you ever seen one of us ridicule your belief in your non belief ... not once ... in fact most of us have done nothing but help others on this forum ... yet every day someone has to start one of these ... Now you don't have to believe in God that is up to the individual .. If I respect your belief try doing that for the rest of us who do ... This is getting old people ... and more than a bit annoying both for me and many others of faith here.... however you can do whatever you want. If there one major problem with this forum that has driven many of your old friends away it has been the utter lack of respect or others. No wonder we have lost so many. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Rapparee Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:29 AM It says in Mark (paraphrased, but not much) "Y'all be ready for it any time, 'cause nobody knows the day or the hour, 'ceptin' the Father, an' He ain't tellin'." Then there's this parabull about the wise and foolish virgins and their lamps being lit and going out -- why virgins I don't know, but that's what's writ down. Keeps sayin' stuff about bein' ready and all, but that there ain't nobody knows when and ya shouldn't even try to guess. Jist be ready for it any old time. So don't do things like beat kids or your wife or husband, don't steal stuff, don't kill anybody unnecessarily, tell the truth, and in gineral live like you were a good person and treat other folks like you'd like to be treated. Because iffen yer a follower of Yeshua of Nazareth and what he said, that old testament stuff was tossed out the window when he said things like "I'll tear down the temple and rebuild it in three days" and "I bring you a new covenant" and stuff like that. Ain't nowheres he said "Gay folks are goin' ta hell" 'ceptin' he did say that anyone who harms "the least these (meaning kids), well, it was better a millstone was hung 'round their neck they wuz tossed inta the sea". He's supposed to have said, "Hey, whatever you do to the least of my brethren you do to me!" Then there's the parts where The Naz says, "Not all of you cats who cry 'Lord, Lord' are gonna get into the Kingdom of Heaven." And that means that while you might be lookin' forward to it, like gettin' a pony fer Christmas er somethin', you might just be disappointed. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: John MacKenzie Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:54 AM Oh I respect the right of other people to believe OD, and in a peculiar way I envy them the certainty such belief gives them. However as I stated earlier, I don't believe in a supreme being, but I didn't say you or anybody else should agree with me. Although I feel that religion has been to blame for many wars and inquisitions over history. No way do I blame any one believer for those wars. JM |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:03 AM John my comments were not directed at you my friend. I completely agree that it is religion that has cause more death and suffering throughout mankind then any other cause I can think of. I can't handle religion. Faith however is what I follow. It is what drives a person like Mother Theresa to give her life to help others. Dan |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Keith A of Hertford Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:15 AM Welcome to our site Hid. You seem like a very gentle person. It is usually very friendly here. This was not a good way to introduce yourself though. Do you have a contribution to make to some other threads? keith. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:26 AM Forgive my not having read the whole thread. It's been a pretty busy time here. There's a widespread cultural confusion about the meaning of what is popularly called "prophecy." Scripturally, Prophecy is a Gift of the Spirit conferred for God's own purposes; it means: the utterance of a message God wants the hearers to receive for the building up of the church-- the "church" GOD wants us to have, not the mess PEOPLE make of it. So a prophetic Word or Vision may or may not be about the future. Sometimes it's just something He wants said in the moment, about the moment, for the upbuilding of the church. And sometimes a Word like that has been given to be delivered, in the form of an image of the future. It CAN be just an image meant for people's meditations-- like the dialog in "A Christmas Carol" from the "Ghost of Christmas Future." It need not be a prediction, at all. ~Susan |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Alice Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:55 AM A "very gentle person"?? I didn't get that impression at all. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Alice Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:01 AM One reason I say that is because of the thread starter's rant on a message now deleted. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:20 AM In all probablity, these types of dicussions are a waste of time. A very deep thinking friend of mind once came up with the theory that certain people are born with a predisposition towards a belief in religion, and interestingly, some academics have recently come up with the same theory. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: theleveller Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:20 AM "This is getting old people ... and more than a bit annoying both for me and many others of faith here.... " Well, tough. This is a discussion board - if you don't want to hear other people's opinions - and strongly-held beliefs - just because they go against yours, you know what you can do. (And one of those things is don't start threads about religious belief.) |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bryn Pugh Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:25 AM Suibhne - like OD I have my beliefs, but I hope I don't shove them down peoples' throats. I am a Pagan. That is for me, my Beloved and our Daughter, who accepted Paganism with no influence from us. What I object to - if anything, because, believe it or not, I try and adhere to the maxim "Live, and Let Live", is fundamentalism in any belief system. May I point out, gently, that where I mark the High Days and Holy Days of my Faith, it is always with Love, Blessings and Greetings. Which reminds me - we may not be around the 'Cat at Hollantide (Samhain ; November Eve:) so To all our Friends on the 'Cat - Love, Blessings and Greetings of Hollantide to all. Blessed Be. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:45 AM Everyone has beliefs of some kind about something they think is true and valuable. That's normal. It's when they insist that everyone else they encounter must hold the same beliefs that they do that they cross the line into intolerance. It's when they have no respect for those of different beliefs that they practice bigotry and prejudice. It's when they insist that everyone who believes differently from them "shut up" that they become boors. Such people can be found both among both the "religious" and also among those who claim that religion is the greatest source of evil in the world. They are equal in their intolerance, their contempt for others, their belligerence, their sense of entitlement, and their generally terribly bad attitude toward other people. When such people attain absolute power in government, as sometimes happens, they often murder millions of innocent people just because those people believe something they don't. Some prime historical examples of that: The Spanish Inquisition The Holy Roman Church Pol Pot's Khymer Rouge Stalin's Soviet regime Mao Tse-Tung's government in China The Nazis In the above list, two of them were religious regimes, three of them were atheist regimes, and one of them (the Nazis) was a very odd blend of racial and national mysticism combined with conventional religion and political theory. There are many more examples on both sides of the divide. Neither side is entitled to blame everything bad that happens in the world exclusively on the other. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:00 PM theleveller Yes and others have opinions also .... and I could care less about yours. There are others on this site that know better and get sucked in I think. Never heard Bryn or anyone else of other faiths slamming anyone. Like myself we keep it to ourselves unlike those that keep starting threads that have no positive value other than to inflame and upset. No different than the name calling threads that keep cropping up. I suspect it is a few who only want to keep causing trouble or drive people away. Take your best shot cause not one of us care what you think |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: kendall Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:17 PM How can you have faith in something that makes no sense? Give me one scrap of evidence that there is a loving, thinking compassionate God and I will believe. I see the Bible as a collection of myth and morality tales. For instance, Jesus descending into hell, borrowed from Homer's Odyssey which was written way before Jesus was born. How can anyone believe that a mortal man could walk on water? or that one could kill 10,000 soldiers with the jaw bone of an ass? Jesse Ventura said that religion is for weak minded fools. I wouldn't go that far but I need proof or at least evidence that God is anything more than the power that created all things. I'm a Deist, just as Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and Abe Lincoln were. Pope John the 23rd said that when faith and science disagree, the problem is interpretation. I believe he was right. Mankind has a strong ego and just can't accept the fact that we are mortal. I'm not knocking anyone's belief, but I need evidence that Washington, Jefferson, Franklin and Lincoln and I are wrong. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: theleveller Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:27 PM Get your facts straight, OD. My own beliefs are very personal and I have never set them out here or talked about the lifelong journey that has brought me to where I am and which will, I suspect, continue through the rest of my life. All I will say is that, to quote a Taoist proverb "The journey is the reward". Your attempts to censor other people create no respect for your beliefs. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:29 PM Kendall my comments are nothing about faith or belief systems in general. They are about respect for others. A series of threads that do nothing but create hurt and hard feelings. No Christian has started a thread about non belief, no pagan has started a thread about Christians or Jewish folks or Muslims faith that I have ever seen. It is a reminder that this forum has a wide group of people. All and all we certainly support others in our fight against racism or violence, womens rights and the rights of gay folks to not be harrassed ... so why is there a constant harassing of people with faith and that is alright with everyone. I guess I am getting old ... I don't get it ... would you folks talk to Jerry that way, or me or Susan or Dw or any of us face to face after years of friendship ... so why keep doing this ... that is my point. I support freedom of speech, would we tolerate a constant attack against any race or gender? yet we feel it is ok to keep starting hate threads on religion .. anyone's religion ... don't get it lumping everyone with a generalized statements that people who believe in God are all the George Bush types. When on mudcat has anyone seen that from me or Susan or Jerry or any one of us? And you never will ... like I said don't get it |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: VirginiaTam Date: 12 Oct 09 - 12:37 PM With specific reference to the premise of the initial posting, what is most worrying about these extreme American 'End Timers' who long for the 'Rapture', is that they politically wish to actively *encourage an escalation of war and ultimate apocalyptic global conflict*, because it'll mean Jesus will come and whisk them personally out of it all, that much sooner! True Dat, Crow Sister. The really weird thing about it is that these people actually believe they can force their "God's" hand. What a twist on their supposed faith in the Almighty that is. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM censor who leveller? Who reads attacks on anyones faith except for the mudcat members it is specifically listed for. You seem to want to sensor when I bring out the other side that everyday seeing one of these is simply another one directed at other mudcat members. That is exactly what it is since no one else but members are reading it. it is a series of threads directed only at a small number of members. But we should say that is ok and be quiet or we will be called a censor... that is unless it is a target on another group you agree with. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 12 Oct 09 - 01:47 PM Someone seems to think that this thread was started by someone of no faith to bash people of faith. I think that person needs to read the opening post again, because it is precisely what that person says never happens here in the Mudcat. This is a thread started by a person of a specific religion that is entirely for the purpose of proselytizing. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: gnu Date: 12 Oct 09 - 01:48 PM Jaysus! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Emma B Date: 12 Oct 09 - 01:57 PM Is there is also the possibility that the thread was started to put people of varying Christian faiths and those of other faiths (or none) at each others throats? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: gnu Date: 12 Oct 09 - 02:01 PM EB! That would be trolling! >;-) |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 12 Oct 09 - 02:15 PM It could be a troll thread, but I've seen people behave like the original poster in sincerity, especially if that person just stumbled across the Mudcat accidentally and, seeing my thread, felt compelled to respond by starting this thread and promoting their own views (in this context, religious views). I've seen a lot of that kind of behavior here in the Mudcat and also elsewhere on the internet. There's probably no way to know for sure one way or the other. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies) Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:40 PM Have there been many serious attempts on the 'Cat amongst *real* members, to initiate mature, open-minded and objective discussion of aspects of Christian theology? If I saw a thread genuinely of that nature, I'd be happy to observe it, and maybe even participate. For my own part, I didn't see the initial post by this new member as representative of such - straight from the outset, and when granted a serious and thoughtful response from LHawk that was simply thrown back at him with a sarcastic "Gee, well that told me!", it became even more clear that the OP had no such intentions. I think we all get pee'd off by prozelytisation - and that can generate a reaction, but especially so when it is pretending to be genuine discussion. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Wesley S Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:51 PM "Have there been many serious attempts on the 'Cat amongst *real* members, to initiate mature, open-minded and objective discussion of aspects of Christian theology?" In my experience - yes there have been. But many people are offended by religious beliefs and do their best to ridicule them to the point that the threads turn into nothing but arguments. And on the other side - nonbelievers who try to have thier own intelligent discussions are often preached at by Christians to the point or irritation. The two camps are not very tolerant of each other. It's a two way street. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Wesley S Date: 12 Oct 09 - 03:55 PM I should clarify. There are many many tolerant Mudcatters. But not nearly enough to keep such discussions on track when others want to derail them. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:03 PM Well I have been here about 4 years. I never saw a member of this forum with a belief system rail at anothers religion. Not saying it didn't happen Westley but I have not seen it. Nor have I seen any person of any faith, pagan, christian, jewish or muslim trying to convert anyone. Again maybe others in the past have but I never saw Jerry or myself or Susan or a host of other regular members do that. What you do see is a prayer when someone is sick. Now if that offends it should be the person who asked for it to say .. ok no prayers. However, every single day taking it on the chin on how stupid we all are for having a belief system is wrong I think. But again that is me. I don't do that to others don't like it when it is done to me but that is the Irish temper taking over. I don't need to justify my belief nor do I preach my belief unless asked nor do I care. As I said repeatedly big difference in religion and faith I think. What I do care about is some degree of respect for others on the forum. Like I said "faith" seems to be fair game for everyone .. I am done talking about it cause I don't need to have a bad day from those I don't know. I think it is a disgrace as it would be if everyone was railing against a gay person or a black person ... hate is hate .. I have no room for it in my life of any type against anyone or their specific beliefs. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: greg stephens Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:12 PM What a peculiar thread. Do these sort of people turn up at other forums and blast off with this sort of thing? If I go to the Wasp Fanciers' Society Cafe, or the Friends of Stream Traction Engines Forum, will I find newcomers kicking in like this? Or is it because folk music uniquely attracts people who perhaps have a little difficulty with mainstream life(I place myself in this category, incidentally). Anybody here frequent any other sites? Do raving God-botherers appear there and talk about the rapture of the end-times? Which sounds, incidentally, a bit like the short strokes. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: jeddy Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:13 PM well said dan!!!! lots of love jade x x x xx |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Jeri Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:18 PM I don't believe in a God, but I know there's more in heaven and earth Horatio... I don't mind talking about what folks believe, which is why I probably answer the door when the Witnesses knock, and I'm polite. I usually wind up distracting them from proselytizing. I don't change my mind, but I don't get pissed off and argue with them. It's a lot like how I deal with people I can find annoying here. I also don't have a problem saying "I don't have time to talk." Be nice, and eventually everybody walks away in a somewhat good mood. And once again, here at Mudcat, you can choose to take part in the discussion and enjoy 1) getting your panties in a bunch, or 2) discussing politely, or you can choose to ignore the thread. As for the initial post, I do believe a person can let their lives go to shit if they think there's a better life that will be handed to them around the corner. I don't think it's good to treat your current life as if it doesn't count, no matter WHAT you believe. I had a great aunt who thought like that. I only knew her when she lived with us and had lost 99% of her marbles, but my mom told me that even as a youngish woman, she would talk about how bad 'this world' and how everything would be right when she 'went home to meet her Jesus'. Presumably, he wouldn't ask her what she'd done to honor God's gift of her life. I also don't think souls have eyes or ears or vocal cords or skin, or any personal bits either. ©--me |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Jeri Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:19 PM Ooh- a hunnert. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Emma B Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:27 PM Many other forums Greg have rules about 'vetting' the initial posts of members who turn up apparently totally out of the blue with no history of posting with any reference to the main purpose of the forum It is possible that this kind of behaviour, whether prozelytising - as some semm to think - or even just encouraging a good ol' verbal punch up for the sheer 'fun' of it is more common on 'open' forums such as mudcat. I didn't see the OP's 'rant' that Alice referred to in an earlier post but it would also lead me to suspect the latter motive. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Sorcha Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:35 PM This thread is insane. Religion is the opiate of the masses....Karl Marx. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: gnu Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:43 PM Do some research, eh? First post... Subject: BS: History of US radical religious right From: hidigibaugh - PM Date: 11 Oct 09 - 04:15 PM From: Riginslinger Yes, just another example of why it's so important to stamp out the scourge of religion and so how can we do this ??? .. does this include violence ?? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Sorcha Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:49 PM Well, IMO, if you think you need to resort to/use violence, you have LOST the thread and won't make it. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: GUEST,hidigibaugh Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM QUOTE = This thread is insane. Religion is the opiate of the masses....Karl Marx COMMENT = . . . . Liberals - Socialists - Atheists - Moral relativists - Environmentalists - Secular Humanists - Anarchists - Unitiarians - New Agers - progressives etc etc .. are just as 'religious' as anyone else ( if not more ) . . . . sorry . . but you can't divorce yourself from religion . . . It's what you believe and simply needs to be defined |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 12 Oct 09 - 04:58 PM It's that first post (which is in the other thread) that makes me think the person who started this thread is probably not a troll. And I thought they posed a good question in that first post. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: GUEST,hidigibaugh Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:01 PM "And I thought they posed a good question in that first post" Thank you very much =:0] |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Sorcha Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:05 PM Bringing Joy again, are you? Joe...please deal with this. This is a MUSIC site, NOT a religious site. Ask Max if you need to. This is just very OTT. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: greg stephens Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:23 PM Come on, Joe. By no stretch of the imagination could this thread be classified as anything but BS. I have no objection to the BS section, I regularly contribute to it, but keep this sort of stuff out of the music part, which is (if I understand Max correctly) for discussing folk music. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 12 Oct 09 - 05:56 PM In North America it's television, the audio-visual media generally (computers, gameboys, Nintendos, cellphones, ipods, etc.), and mass consumerism that are the ruling opiates of the masses. ;-) Religion comes in way behind to those in its overall influence on people. Then there's alcohol and caffiene and other drugs...also much bigger opiates affecting far more people than organized religion. Then there's all the political and partisan BS that consumes people's attention and dominates "the news". More opiate for the masses. And if someone can't see that, it's just because he doesn't want to...because he's so emotionally obsessed with reacting against religion that he can't stop focusing on it to the exclusion of all else...in which case he's become some kind of self-righteous fanatic. Like a religious fanatic, only the exact opposite mode. ;-) Such intolerant people are drawn instantly to these threads about religion like flies to shit because it gives them another chance to vent their hatred and their superiority complex. They seek the emotional satisfaction of attacking that which they despise. As such, they deserve to deal with the very worst and most unreasonable of the religious fanatics who are their mirror-image. Wouldn't it be nice if they ALL went somewhere else to fight over their differences and left the rest of us in peace? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: jeddy Date: 12 Oct 09 - 06:05 PM this thread has appeared below the line on my pc for days now. so please stop asking for it to be moved. unless my pc is very smart and automaticly puts this thread as bullshit? all regligion that says i am right and you are wrong, has missed the point IMO. it seems to me that we all want the same thing, for our life on this wonderful planet of ours. saftey and harmony. looking after each other and helping one another in crisis. what does it matter whether you worship god, jesus, allah, you get the idea. we don't know for sure what happens to us when we die, so it is all ideas. i have my faith, you have yours or don't have any, i don't see what yours has got to do with me unless we are having a debate. it should not be up to someone else to say whether i have lived a good and worthy life or not. it is between me and my maker, or in my case, myself when i face the truth at the end of this cycle. let everyone make up their own mind, and judge them on what they DO not what they believe. take care all jade x x x x |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Don Firth Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:23 PM hidigibaugh, if you try to define everything as a religion, then the word "religion" itself loses all meaning. {By the way, I notice that you didn't include "conservative" in your little list – I find that a significant omission} And your statement ". . . a music site that bashes Christians. . . ." {I presume that was you making that statement} Not so. This is a music site. It's primary purpose is the discussion of folk and traditional music. It does have a section {BS, which stands for "Breeze Shooting," but all too often, it can take on the other meaning} where discussion of matters other than music take place. Mudcat is rather like being at a song fest in someone's (Max's) home. While the singing goes on in the living room, there are often some who may want to take a break from the singing and gather in the kitchen and chat about any number of things. And it is true that there are a few people here who are hard-chargingly anti-religious who rarely miss a chance to leap on their favorite hobby horse, but there are also those of various political or philosophical stripes who do the same thing and often make deadly bores of themselves. There are also a number of quite religious people (including many Christians) who just shrug off the remarks of those few who bash Christians or any other religion, knowing full well that such arguments are a waste of time and lead only to acrimony. Noting that you have leapt right into a religious blither about Bible prophecy (a controversial and devisive subject even among devout Christian) immediately after coming aboard, one has reason to assume that your primary interest in being here is not an interest in music, but desire on your part to store up treasures in heaven for yourself by saving the sorry souls of all us heathens, pagans, and sinners by leading us all to Christ. Sorry. I'm afraid you're in the wrong pew. If you really want to do your Christian duty, I suggest you read what Jesus tells you to do in Matthew 25:35-40, soft-pedal the religious prattle, and go do something worthwhile in the world. Don Firth P. S. Furthermore, hidigibaugh, I recommend that you read The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation (Westview Press, 2004). The author, the Reverend Barbara R. Rossing, is a New Testament scholar and an associate professor at the Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago. Most revealing indeed. She delineates the whole origin of the "Rapture" idea. Contrary to popular belief, including the beliefs of many who should know better, the Rapture idea does not come from the Bible. No, not even the Book of Revelation. It is a cockamammie idea hatched up in fairly recent times. And it's been quite a financial boon for people like Timothy LeHaye, who've managed to write and sell millions of dollars worth of novels to gullible but not very bright readers of a religious bent. He's storing up his treasures (royalties) right here on earth! P. P. S. And hidigibaugh, don't make unwarrented assumptions about what my religious beliefs may or may not be. But will say that I believe the Bible verses I cited above are the very core of Christianity and what Jesus was all about. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:35 PM Don thank you that is the passage that defines my life always Dan |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: kendall Date: 12 Oct 09 - 07:41 PM I'm not against religion, in fact I wish I had that faith as it seems to give a lot of comfort to many people. Why did I just think of Linus in the Pumpkin patch? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:03 PM You don't have to be a christian, don't have to believe in anything to understand that this passage is a way to go through this thing called life. Matthew 25:35-40 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' 37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40" The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Art Thieme Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:47 PM Speaking of fat -- I just don't trust it. Rarely ever use the word faithe I rarely ever say I merely believe anything at all. I will often say, though, that "I think" that something is true. More often than not, to me, faith and belief is, as I've said before, wishful thinking! As in life after death. When you think about it, the idea that, If you will only believe, it will be made true -- is really grasping at straws -- or cramming for finals. Art |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Art Thieme Date: 12 Oct 09 - 08:52 PM sorry for the typos!! But looking back at it, I think it(Speaking Of Fat) might be a great name for a new NPR radio show. JOKE!! Please... Art |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Jeri Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:53 PM Liberals - Socialists - Atheists - Moral relativists - Environmentalists - Secular Humanists - Anarchists - Unitiarians - New Agers - progressives etc etc .. are just as 'religious' as anyone else ( if not more ) . . . . sorry . . but you can't divorce yourself from religion . . . It's what you believe and simply needs to be defined Nope, not so much. If you don't believe the earth is flat, it's not abelief. Believing the earth is round, or oblong or a dodecahedron with polka-dots, yes. Not believing isn't a belief. I prefer not to make up answers when I don't KNOW them and my personal questions are unanswered. I DO believe that people who won't accept beliefs different from their own are assholes, but while that IS a 'belief', I don't think it's religious. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Oct 09 - 09:57 PM I've always been partial to dodekahedrons, although I spell them with a "kappa." I don't believe in polka dots, though. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Jeri Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:04 PM Joe, I'm offended. You probably don't believe in stripes either, you fluicitous emgarnist!. (I gotta go to bed.) |
|
Subject: THE ALIGNMENT OF THE NATIONS From: hidigibaugh Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:14 PM ALIGNMENT OF THE NATIONS: (IsraelNN.com) US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog & Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that potential conflict. Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel). On one side were: Israel United States Britain France Germany On the other were: Iran Russia China Syria North Korea |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Alice Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:17 PM better put on your tinfoil hats, folks!! |
|
Subject: Dear Don From: hidigibaugh Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:21 PM QUOTE = "the Rapture idea does not come from the Bible. No, not even the Book of Revelation. It is a cockamammie idea hatched up in fairly recent times." I Thessalonians 4 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God. the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord for ever . . . Paul |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Jeri Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:24 PM But what about the mole people? EVERYBODY forgets the mole people. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:28 PM Anyway I hope the end does come soon. I have a ton of taxes to pay and 2 mortgages so the banks will get what they deserve ... nothing ... my time training special forces and Navy Seals .. well I will probably survive a bit longer than most ... And well I think all and all God is not that unhappy with me ... maybe he is but somehow I think we are ok ... so bring it on |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:46 PM Well, Hidigbaugh, that's what I mean about weird extrapolations from scripture - especially from the Book of Revelation, but also from other apocalyptic references. The Bible doesn't give specific details or name names, but yet these wacky speculators seem to have all the details down. I can't buy it. Remember what's said about not adding one jot or tittle to the Bible. Well, the so-called born-again Christians do it, and then just can't buy it when others disagree with their so-called "literal" interpretation. The Bible is full of poetry and metaphors and other beautiful language that is very difficult to understand - there is no such thing as poetry and metaphors that can be interpreted literally. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: GUEST,Peace Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:48 PM "this thread has appeared below the line on my pc for days now." Mine too. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Alice Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:52 PM The thread was started yesterday afternoon. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Janie Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:54 PM Well, at least for one day. The thread ain't been around for days. It was moved below the line a few hours after it was started, yesterday. Peace and light to all ya'll Christians, Muslims, Jews, Heathens, Pagans, Agnostics, Atheists, Buddhists, et. al., and also to Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Janie Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:55 PM Ah, Alice. "Great minds think alike." *grin* |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Peace Date: 12 Oct 09 - 10:55 PM Time flies when . . . . |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Janie Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:07 PM LOL, Peace. Whatever gets you thru the night.... John Lennon |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Alice Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:13 PM How ironic. Clash Of The Gods is on the History channel right now. This episode is on Thor. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Don Firth Date: 12 Oct 09 - 11:27 PM The Rapture was an invention of John Nelson Darby, one of the leaders of the Plymouth Brethren, in the mid-eighteen hundreds. He "cherry-picked" a bunch of disconnected verses from the Bible and put them together in a collage of verses that "proved" the doctrine that he was trying to sell (this is a common practice of what might be regarded as "religious con men"), including the verses you quote, but also a great deal from the Book of Daniel--taken out of context. He also drew on a "visions" of a 15 year-old Scottish girl named Margaret MacDonald. I take it, hidigibaugh, that you are Christian. Since I undoubtedly have no credentials that you would find acceptable, let me refer you to some writings on "The Rapture" by fellow Christians: THIS and THIS. No doubt this will meet with your complete rejection. Nevertheless, there it is for your perusal. The best, most comprehensive, theologically, and academically based refutation is the one I cited above by the Rev. Barbara R. Rossing. Don Firth P. S. By the way, if the Battle of Armageddon and the defeat of the Anti-Christ is to take some seven years, then they'd better get cracking, because according some interpretations of the enigmatic verses of Nostradamus, alleged predictions based on the Mayan calendar, and the panicky ideas of some folks addicted to being really ignorant of the basics of astronomy, the world is supposed to come to an end on December 21st, 2012. How? The adherents to this prediction can't seem to agree, but it involves such things as the earth flipping over (north and south poles changing places), the sun going supernova, and the solar system passing through the galactic equator, although we are, as of this date, some 110 light years to the "north" of this completely arbitrary "equator" and we are only traveling at about nine miles per second essentially parallel to the imaginary line. We're also supposed to be bombarded with ionically charged meteorites which will ignite the earth's atmosphere. Looks like a rough ride ahead, kids. I don't know about you, but I'm gonna go have myself a cold beer. P. P. S. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, 'cuz I'm the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:41 AM Hmmmmmm.....This could get interesting..........(just readin') |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Stower Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:35 AM I get worried when something that someone reads in a book, which has no basis in fact and has zero evidence to back it up, which makes unsubstantiatable claims about the future and links unconnected things in the past, seems to someone more real than the actual world we live in. In the Gospels, Jesus and his followers clearly believed the world would end very soon. Jesus states that would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. He was wrong. Jesus claimed that those who help others also help him. Agape is a good notion for living a life. But subtract Jesus from the equation - leaving only that we should help others - and nothing of substance is lost. Unless you believe that an entire eternity of excruciating pain is a good punishment for a loving God to give to those who fail to meet his standards. Or you could go to John's Gospel's Jesus, very different from the synoptics. This Jesus was more concerned with belief in him as a man-deity than with anything else; "No one comes to the Father except by me". So an outstanding Hindu like Mohandas Gandhi goes to hell for not being a Christian but some fundamentalist Christian who never did a thing for anyone except hector them into being 'saved' goes to heaven? We don't need supernaturalist beliefs to live well. They just complicate things. We just need to live well. Listen to Chris Wood's 'Come Down, Jehovah'. That says it all. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Doug Chadwick Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:48 AM How ironic. Clash Of The Gods is on the History channel right now. This episode is on Thor. The God of War rode out one day Upon his handsome filly "I'm Thor!" he cried The horse replied "You forgot your thaddle, thilly" DC |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: DMcG Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:21 AM That quote from I Thessalonians is interesting. Given that communication at the time was so difficult, and the rapture is so significant, it seems slightly mean of Paul not to let the Romans, Ephesians and all the rest know. And as for it slipping past the Gospel writers, well ... |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: theleveller Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:34 AM What irritates me is the usurping of words like "belief" and "faith" by those who believe in some supreme entity. This is both ignorant and arrogant. It takes just as much faith and belief to be an athiest. My faith and belief are as strong as most believers in a god - perhaps stronger as there is no bribe of eternal life. It has been built on over 50 years of reading, discussion, thought and meditation - and plain old expertience. It is also wrong to asssume that all athiests have the same beliefs, just as it would be wrong to class all theists, be they christian, jewish, muslim or whatever, as all having the same beliefs. But, then, perhaps I'm wasting my time because, as Olddude says, after assuring us that he respects other people's opinions..."Take your best shot cause not one of us care what you think". |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: TheSnail Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:44 AM Does God exist? Theism - God exists! Atheism - God does not exist! Agnosticism - It is impossible to know whether or not God exists. Ignosticism - Sorry, what was the question? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:47 AM leveller I was wrong to say that to you and I apologize. You were wrong to tell me to shove it right before that when I was only making my point. however I do have a temper it is one of my faults ... I do apologize, and do respect your belief system. I ask that you do the same ok Dan |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bryn Pugh Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:04 AM Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfil- An it harm none, do what ye will. So mote it be. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: theleveller Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:15 AM Thanks, OD - mutual respect! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: olddude Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:22 AM leveller Thank you my friend |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Mr Happy Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:55 AM hidigibaugh 'The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel). On one side were: Israel United States Britain France Germany On the other were: Iran Russia China Syria North Korea ' ************ Aren't you making a None of those political entities [countries] existed when the bible was written/ being compiled. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Stower Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM Yes, Mr Happy, you're right, of course. Hidigibaugh will, going on past form, make more insubstantiated claims and simply insult anyone who disagrees to avoid actually engaging with them. As I say above, "unsubstantiatable claims about the future and links unconnected things in the past". It's funny how prophecies about the future are only ever made *retrospectively*, when both the events they 'foretell' and the alleged prophecy about those events are *both* in the past. It's like me doing a card trick, predicting what card you will pick only when you have handed me the card: 'Yes, I knew it would be said card'. You wouldn't be convinced. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Jack Blandiver Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:21 AM Suibhne - like OD I have my beliefs, but I hope I don't shove them down peoples' throats. You do make it rather obvious though, Bryn - which is cool by me, as I say, though I might worry about the implied level of intolerance when a professed neo-Pagan accuses a Christian of God-bothering, whatever the fundamentalist stripe of the latter. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:10 AM Doug Chadwick, I Googled and found several examples of your Thor poem, but didn't find more - are there other verses? It's a kick! I've often said that fundamentalist Christianity is the State Religion of the US - even atheists see religion in fundamentalist terms, and then reject it. But many religious people aren't concerned with the doctrinaire, "I have the truth and you don't" view of religion. These others see religion as an exploration, as more about asking and exploring questions than it is about possessing and controlling the 'Truth.' Most of the major religions were founded on some form of the Golden Rule ("do unto others") and a seeking of some power greater than the members themselves. As time went on, many adherents took the easy (mindless) path and turned to a fundamentalist obsession with possession of Truth and condemnation of all who did not share their Truth. But if you look into mysticism, you'll find that the mystics of all religions are remarkably similar in their gentleness and open-mindedness, and that all are quite different from the fundamentalist stereotype. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:06 PM Stower, you said that "In the Gospels, Jesus and his followers clearly believed the world would end very soon. Jesus states that would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. He was wrong." Hmmm. Well, it depends on how you interpret what they were saying. I think what Jesus was predicting was the end of not "the world" in the sense of the whole planet...or human societies all over the planet. I think what he was most likely predicting was the end of the Jewish world in Judea...the fall of Jerusalem...the destruction of the Temple, etc. That's what it looks like to me when I read his reputed statements in the New Testament. If so, his prediction was spot on. That "world" (the traditional world of the Hebrew nation and all its basic assumptions about its own permanence and importance) DID end very soon. It ended within the lifetime of many of his disciples when the Romans besieged Jerusalem, took the city by storm, destroyed the Temple, massacred the garrison, and scattered the survivors of the Jewish nation hither and yon. That was definitely the end of the comfy and seemingly permanent world that the Jewish people in Judea had known since the end of the Babylonian captivity. It's pretty grandiose to expand such a prediction to include the entire world in our time...but people in later eras do tend to expand such ancient predictions to fit their own idea of "the world" because it satisfies some kind of emotional need they have. Jesus would not have had to be clairvoyant or to be "the Son of God" to make such a prediction. He would have just needed a good understanding of the politics of his time. The Jews and Romans were clearly on a collision course that was going to soon lead to total war...and the Romans, given their superb military organization and strength, would undoubtedly win that war in the end. **** Now, there's a further dimension to various other prophetic stuff that's in Revelations and elsewhere about the destruction of "Babylon", "the Great Whore", "the Great City" and so on....and I believe it referred to the fall of Rome. They couldn't say "Rome" openly in those texts without being arrested for it, however, so they said "Babylon" instead. They used a number of symbolic names as code for "Rome". This prediction also was eventually fullfilled, and Rome did finally fall into decadence and weakness and was plundered by barbarian invasions from the north, thus ending the Western Roman Empire and bringing a very definite end to that world (the Roman world). The Eastern Roman Empire in Constantinople fell at a considerably later date. *** Those are far more likely scenarios for the Bible predictions than extrapolating them all the way to the present day and trying to twist them around to fit modern countries like the USA, Russia, China, etc. *** Still there may be some further echo to the whole thing that comes forth in our time. It's possible, I suppose. But I wouldn't bet the farm on it, that's for sure. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: SharonA Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:09 PM Little Hawk sez: "Stower, you said that 'In the Gospels, Jesus and his followers clearly believed the world would end very soon. Jesus states that would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. He was wrong.' Hmmm. Well, it depends on how you interpret what they were saying. I think what Jesus was predicting was the end of not 'the world' in the sense of the whole planet...or human societies all over the planet. I think what he was most likely predicting was the end of the Jewish world in Judea...the fall of Jerusalem...the destruction of the Temple, etc. That's what it looks like to me when I read his reputed statements in the New Testament." Hmm, hmmmm. Don't forget that the four Gospels were written during and after the Roman siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. It was very easy for the Gospel writers to say then that Jesus had made predictions about the end of that particular "world" -- so were they simply making up those supposed "predictions", or were they putting that "spin" on the words Jesus said in order to make it appear that he was talking about the fall of Jerusalem? Remember also that, after the fall, the Romans were the conquering rulers so any Christian who talked openly about Jesus' predictions of entire human societies (such as Roman society) being destroyed was likely to be executed as a seditionist. Therefore, any writings about Jesus' predictions of such destruction had to be coded and couched in oblique terms, in order to save the necks of the writers and the readers/hearers of those words. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: kendall Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:16 PM I know too much real history to get bogged down in organized religion. "Feed a cold, starve a fever, Argue with no true believer." No amount of belief can create a fact. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: SharonA Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:21 PM Little Hawk also said: "Jesus would not have had to be clairvoyant or to be 'the Son of God' to make such a prediction. He would have just needed a good understanding of the politics of his time. The Jews and Romans were clearly on a collision course that was going to soon lead to total war...and the Romans, given their superb military organization and strength, would undoubtedly win that war in the end." Likewise, a good understanding of the politics of his time and of the history of the region would've been all that was needed to predict the eventual fall of Rome and Constantinople into the decadence/weakness/infighting that left them open to attack from barbarians. I agree with LH that extrapolating Bible predictions to the present day and trying to twist them around to fit modern countries is not going to give one the likely meaning of those predictions. Far better to study the times in which those predictions were made and the times that went before them (not after them!). |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Stower Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:18 PM Little Hawk, you make many valid points. They're interesting but pretty irrelevant to real life, which is certainly not meant as a criticism of you, but of discussing in general the validity of ancient texts as if they have some moral or supernatural bearing on our lives now. Interesting, though, but not interesting enough for me to make further comments on this thread, except the following one. LH, you wrote (I'd put the following quotes in italics to make it clear that's what I'm doing, but I don't know how.): "Stower, you said that "In the Gospels, Jesus and his followers clearly believed the world would end very soon. Jesus states that would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. He was wrong." Hmmm. Well, it depends on how you interpret what they were saying. I think what Jesus was predicting was the end of not "the world" in the sense of the whole planet...or human societies all over the planet. I think what he was most likely predicting was the end of the Jewish world in Judea...the fall of Jerusalem...the destruction of the Temple, etc. That's what it looks like to me when I read his reputed statements in the New Testament." No, on several counts. Firstly, we only have the Gospel writers' word (whoever they were) that Jesus said anything. I'm sure there was a man called Jesus of Nazareth who said lots of memorable things. It's highly unlikely that comes down to us untainted by the redaction of the Gospel writers serving their own needs and that of their audiences, though. So I would certainly underscore your comment about "reputed statements". Secondly, to quote myself (for the second time - are we reading each others' responses here before we post?), "It's funny how prophecies about the future are only ever made *retrospectively*, when both the events they 'foretell' and the alleged prophecy about those events are *both* in the past." In other words, the Gospels were written at about the time or after the time of the fall of Jerusalem, AD70, so the claim that Jesus predicted something after his death when it was only written down after both his death and the events he 'foretold' is seriously questionable. Thirdly, many, many Gospel passages, and St. Paul, are clear that Christians expected the end of the world within their lifetime. For example, Mark 8:37-9:1, "Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power." That's me done. An enjoyable thread in its own way, but irrelevant to actual life. No doubt the world will end someday. But any tribulation will most likely be of our own making, not part of some supposed divine plan. It's a strange God who punishes people for their unbelief with so little evidence to go on and so much evidence to the contrary, and with so many competing claims from incompatable faiths who all claim to have the truth. Yes, evidence. I base my life on evidence. The truth will set us free. For the truth, we need evidence, debate and a search for understanding. A single book is too limited. Any religion, and the book of any religion, claims to know the truth regardless of evidence, and so is also limiting of real knowledge and real understanding. I hope those who stick around will enjoy the debate, but I wonder how much real learning will go on. Perhaps meeting face to face on a Saturday afternoon in a pub somewhere would be more productive. I think I'd rather enjoy that. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:26 PM comparison of the ages & content of the Gospels It is such studies that make any absolute claim about historical details of the era OR the supposed metaphysical sources of the stories suspect. Because of the great differences of opinion on these matters, and the personal animosities which result from certain viewpoints being ...ummm... 'shared', I will say again that we have not had experiences with 'discussions' which begin as obvious statements of belief. There are forums which DO specialize in either sharing OF religious beliefs or debates ABOUT them. It is fine to refer to your belief system to explain a point or describe who you are, but beginning any thread or post with statements which are obvious claims as to the 'truth' will lead, inevitably, to conflict. I am not personally religious.....I have a number of good friends here who are. We remain friends by taking pains to respecting each other's view and not making hard claims in either direction. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Oct 09 - 05:20 PM Good comments, Stower. I too base my life on my actual experiences and the evidence I have directly encountered, but it's interesting to discuss many other possibilities and hypotheticals about stuff I haven't encountered in any case. Most of the stuff that's ever happened or ever will...I'm not going to have the opportunity to encounter. (smile) I am also pretty skeptical about applying ancient religious texts to our present circumstances...except where they deal in general moral and ethical concepts...or in techniques for mastering practices such as yoga or meditation, for example. In those areas, some ancient texts are very useful and still quite relevant. Yes, the writers of the Christian Gospels may well have back-dated various predictions reputedly made by Jesus after the fact in order to make a better story. Quite likely. On the other hand, Jesus was probably quite interested in the political ferment in Judea at the time he was alive, so he may well have made some predictions about what he thought would happen, and some of those may have turned out to be accurate. It's impossible to say with certainty 2,000 years later what he said and what he didn't, so it's all speculation as far as I'm concerned. What troubles me is how people, merely because of a religious tradition, will update prophecies that are thousands of years old and try to make them dovetail to present political and social circumstances. That has been happening over and over as the centuries went by. There hasn't been a single generation of Christians in the last 2,000 years whose staunchest fundamentalist believers did not think that "the end of the world" was just around the corner....and they've ALL been wrong so far!!!!! That's a zero batting average. It's kind of amusing when you think about it. ;-) But here's one reason people really go for that sort of thing: Their OWN personal end is coming soon, because they're mortal. They all face their own death in the relatively near future....thus the end of their particular "world" as they know it. This scares people. It worries them. It lurks in the back of their minds. And it bothers them that THEY will be gone,..but everything else and everyone else will be carrying on just fine without them...business as usual. So there is something quite appealing to the human mind about the thought of EVERYTHING coming to an end at the same time! That means that they won't be personally left out and that everyone else must face what they face. There's something about that which would appeal, I think, to a self-centered view of life such as the human ego tends to hold. And I think that's one reason why "end of the world" scenarios fascinate people and grab the imagination of religious cults of various sorts. After all, it makes a neat end and VERY EXCITING and DRAMATIC end to the great lengthy story that is the world...instead of confronting you with the far more prosaic and humble fact that your little part in it is going to end, but the world is going to continue turning without you. Roland Emmerich (the maker of dreadful blockbuster movies) is about to make serious money on that concept with his "end of the world movie" called 2012. You will get to see tsunamis higher than Mount Everest, meteor showers nastier than Richard Nixon on a Monday morning, whole cities swallowed up in cataclysms, the violent death of billions, aircraft carriers dropped on the White House, and other BS along that line....all supposedly based on a Mayan calendar prophesy about the end of the world. Hooo-WEE! Should sell a lot of tickets, I'm thinking. ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Doug Chadwick Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:55 PM ......I Googled and found several examples of your Thor poem, but didn't find more - are there other verses?...... Sorry Joe, that's all I know. Could be a good song/poetry challenge - either extend the Thor poem or write something about one of the other gods in a similar style. DC |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:30 PM SharonA:....Hmm, hmmmm. Don't forget that the four Gospels were written during and after the Roman siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. It was very easy for the Gospel writers to say then that Jesus had made predictions about the end of that particular "world" -- so were they simply making up those supposed "predictions", or were they putting that "spin" on the words Jesus said in order to make it appear that he was talking about the fall of Jerusalem? ..and I keep seeing the word 'reputed', as to discredit the writers of the Gospel texts, as 'story-maker-uppers' I find it highly unlikely that all 12, but one, was martyred for a story, based on illusion, that they just 'made up'..not logical, nor realistic. It is very likely that they all witnessed, or experienced, something rather extraordinary, and chronicled it, to the best of their abilities...I mean, would any of us, be willing to be put to death, for any one of our 'Mudcat' opinions,..and furthermore, skepticism, is NOT 'logical proof', of anything, other than that of the holder, of that mindset, of being nothing more than skeptical! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:38 PM I'm not putting the word "reputed" in to attack the writers of the Gospels. I'm putting it in to fend off attacks by a few rabid people here who simply show up on all these threads to attack and ridicule anything anyone has to say in favor of religion or spirituality. I'm putting the word "reputed" in to appease them somewhat so they don't pester me too much... ;-) My feeling is that the Gospel writers were writing about a number of real events in the life of Jesus and that much of what they wrote is accurate. I also think, though, that some of it was probably shaped in accordance with their own political agendas and various other things they had in mind and that some of the facts were altered, so it's probably not all accurate and dependable in every detail. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Alice Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:49 PM People are willing to die (and kill) for their beliefs about God and Eternity more than any other reason. (Heaven's Gate suicides, Jonestown murders, 9/11 attack, the Crusades, etc., etc.) |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Donuel Date: 14 Oct 09 - 02:20 PM God reveals the word in strange ways... The bible code computer has just revealed the words President Palin and Melissa Cheney VP O happy day Finally our founding fathers intent to have a theocracy in America will be delivered. The land of breast milk and money will finally win every war and make tax cuts permanent for the rich. Then the faithful will be raptured and Satan will die of AIDS. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Oct 09 - 04:13 PM There's a good deal of truth in what you say, Alice, about "People are willing to die (and kill) for their beliefs about God and Eternity more than any other reason." However, they are certainly equally willing to kill and die for their political beliefs. I think if you look at 20th century history and 19th century history that you will find that far more people died for their political and nationalistic beliefs than did for religion. This would include, for example, most of the people who died in 2 world wars, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, and the American Civil War and the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars and the Franco-Prussian War, etc, etc. They died on behalf of their political beliefs, not their religious beliefs, though they often dragged religion into it in one way or another. The politicians always do that if possible, because it's one more way of persuading ordinary people to go out and die for a political objective. ;-) And what is politics really about? It's about the material world. It's about the pursuit of money, power, and property. So you see....people simply see it according to their own prior choice. They look for their favorite "enemy" to blame when they look at a situation. This reminds me of people I've met who blame everything on the Jews. Or the immigrants. Or the socialists. Or some other handy scapegoat like that. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Don Firth Date: 14 Oct 09 - 04:38 PM "And what is politics really about? It's about the material world. It's about the pursuit of money, power, and property." I think there's a bit more to it than that. It's also about matters such as justice, personal autonomy, freedom from oppression, being able to pursue one's own destiny, and much more, going far beyond the merely material world. Freedom of conscience. The freedom to believe or not believe as one sees it, without being persecuted. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:35 PM That's true, Don. As with religion (or anything else), politics has both a negative and a positive side, and you have quite correctly pointed out the positive side of politics. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:39 PM "The freedom to believe or not believe as one sees it..." Yes, that is a basic...except that it has logical conundrum implied in it. It is the case that 'some' sets of beliefs include the admonition to actively recruit and proselytize among non-believers. How are we to reconcile "freedom of belief" when their beliefs demands recruiting and one of MY beliefs includes the desire to NOT be bothered? Many basically good folks take the following very literally... " * Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 4:18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. 4:20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. " |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Oct 09 - 05:47 PM That is something I've always found objectionable too, Bill. I think people should simply apply their beliefs in the most helpful and positive way they can...by doing good works...thereby setting a good example. I don't think they should go about trying to convert others. The fact that some of them use various excerpts out of ancient texts to justify their zeal for conversion has led to a lot of trouble. Political movements also try to convert people, of course, by aggressively spreading their message, and commercial advertisers try to convert people (into spending money on their product) by aggressive advertising. I find all these things intrusive and somewhat objectionable. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 14 Oct 09 - 06:09 PM That makes sense, Little Hawk...but it is built in to some folks systems. (You know I have posted before that I live 5 minute walk from one active group and 5 minutes drive from another...this is addition to the ones like I encounter preaching from street corners & buses....and I came here from Kansas, where it was even more pronounced.) I try VERY hard to understand that they DO have strong beliefs, but there is huge difference between 'noting' ones beliefs and implicitly harassing others about them. Are threads on Mudcat different from knocking on my door? sorta...but, still..... |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Don Firth Date: 14 Oct 09 - 07:11 PM I've been worked on by experts. In the mid-1950s, under circumstances it would take to long to explain here (I was staying at a clinic undergoing post-polio physical therapy at the time), I had a fundamentalist minister as a room mate. He went to work on everybody. He went to work on me. A few years before, in the English Lit department at the University of Washington, I had taken an elective course from a professor I especially liked. The Bible as Literature. No religion taught in the course. The Bible as a collection of short stories, novellas, and poetry. We didn't read a verse here and a verse there as one often does in church, we read whole chunks just like in any other literature class. The result was that I actually knew more about the Bible than my room mate, the Reverend. As he tried to save my soul, I would be constantly interrupting his Bible quotes with, "Wait a minute! That's not what that means!" And then I would proceed to explain to him what it was really all about. After a week or two of this, he gave up on me and went to work on a Mormon down the hall (with equal success). I heard a fellow on the radio a month or so ago who had written a book entitled "The Year of Living Biblically." Check it out HERE. One of the incidents Jacobs, the author, described is when a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses came to his door and said that they wanted to talk to him about the Bible. He invited them in with a big smile. A half an hour later, they were looking around desperately for some way to escape without appearing too rude. But Jacobs kept right on talking at them! Since I do belong to a church, when someone tries to "evangelize" me, I tell them in a firm, strong voice that I am quite satisfied with my current belief system, thank you very much! If they persist, I say, "Excuse me," and prepare to leave. Usually they shut up about then. If they don't, I do leave. Why do I go to church? I may explain that some day, but not today. Do I believe in God? Well, first, you're going to have to explain to me what it is you mean by God, then I may be able to answer your question. But I will say that I don't believe in a cranky, bearded old man dressed in a bed sheet who lives on Arcturus 12, keeps a detailed ledger of people's sins and good deeds, throws thunderbolts at those who piss Him off, and marks the fall of every sparrow. Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Peace Date: 14 Oct 09 - 07:42 PM Once had some representatives of the Hari Krishna movement come to my buddy's door. We invited them in, gave 'em a few tokes and bored them trying to put a tricycle together--my buddy and I were pissed (drunk in England). They left after the grass wore off. We wished them well and thanked them for coming. We explained our religion's belief in invisible beings for about a half hour and I think we scared the shit outta them. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Oct 09 - 07:45 PM LOL! Yeah, probably, Peace... Great post, Don. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: SharonA Date: 14 Oct 09 - 07:51 PM Guest from Sanity sez: "I find it highly unlikely that all 12 [disciples], but one, was martyred for a story, based on illusion, that they just 'made up'..not logical, nor realistic. It is very likely that they all witnessed, or experienced, something rather extraordinary, and chronicled it, to the best of their abilities...I mean, would any of us, be willing to be put to death, for any one of our 'Mudcat' opinions,..and furthermore, skepticism, is NOT 'logical proof', of anything, other than that of the holder, of that mindset, of being nothing more than skeptical!" Unquestionably, the disciples lived in an extraordinary time (meaning an extraordinary political/religious quagmire) and were desperate for some way to deal with it. Unquestionably they were presented with some extraordinary ideas about dealing with it, gleaned from several ancient world religions (by Jesus and/or by other rabbis/prophets). But what they did with those ideas has 'wayyyy more to do with them than with anything that Jesus the man said or did. Two of the many pieces of evidence for this are: the Gospel of Thomas, the closest thing we have to the earliest book of Jesus' sayings; and certain manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark, the earliest-written of the New Testament gospels. The Gospel of Thomas is not a narrative of Jesus' ministry, as the Big 4 gospels are (note that I said they are "narratives", not "chronicles"), but it's a book of 114 sayings attributed to Jesus. There's no philosophizing, no rhetoric, just what he is supposed to have said. If Jesus had performed extraordinary, mind-blowing acts -- miraculous healings, raisings of dead people, rising from the dead himself -- wouldn't those stories have comprised the core of the earliest book about him??? Instead, the book contains his teachings. This indicates that the tall tales about him were piled on later, and that they escalated as the political situation deteriorated and as certain sects of early Christianity sought to increase their ranks of believers in opposition to the tyrannical rule by Rome. The Gospel of Mark: the most reliable early manuscripts end at Mark 16:8 -- the part where three women are too frightened to tell anyone they'd seen a young man in a white robe who had told them Jesus was risen from the dead and was on his way to Galilee. Period. The end. Not very strong evidence for a resurrected Christ -- just a guy next to an empty tomb (from which the body might have been stolen, for all they knew). Various other manuscripts tag on various endings about sightings and teachings of a risen Christ; the two most common are referred to as "the shorter ending" and "the longer ending". But it's obvious to scholars that the endings came from different writers than the writer of the preceding text. The Gospel of Mark is said to have been written during the Jerusalem war of circa AD 70, and the 3 longer ones in the New Testament came later (with even more fanciful stories and philosophies in 'em). So, yeah, no matter what Guest from Sanity thinks, people did "make up" stuff about Jesus -- more and more as time went on. (Ever read the Gospel of Peter? Now there is a pretty fantastic story!) Let's not forget that a lot of the writings of various sects of early Christianity were condemned as heresy for the reason that they didn't agree with the beliefs of the most outspoken sects hundreds of years after they were written. So, yeah again, lots of people were making up lots of different stories about Jesus' acts and teachings, and what they meant. Let's face it, an illogical, unrealistic illusion of a risen-from-the-dead, risen-into-heaven God-Son is a much more attractive thing for which to martyr oneself than a real, boring story of some guy who walked around and said stuff. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 14 Oct 09 - 09:52 PM SharonA:..'Period. The end. Not very strong evidence for a resurrected Christ -- just a guy next to an empty tomb (from which the body might have been stolen, for all they knew). Various other manuscripts tag on various endings about sightings and teachings of a risen Christ; the two most common are referred to as "the shorter ending" and "the longer ending". But it's obvious to scholars that the endings came from different writers than the writer of the preceding text. The Gospel of Mark is said to have been written during the Jerusalem war of circa AD 70, and the 3 longer ones in the New Testament came later (with even more fanciful stories and philosophies in 'em). So, yeah, no matter what Guest from Sanity thinks, people did "make up" stuff about Jesus -- more and more as time went on. (Ever read the Gospel of Peter? Now there is a pretty fantastic story!)" As to Mark not including more on the 'resurrection'...So?? That proves what, again??? All that means is that Mark wrote about what Jesus said. By the way, Mark was put to death, like the others...because he liked his opinion about what he 'made up', just like the others, even though he omitted, or was more impressed with the other things he wrote??? Perhaps they knew they were writing this, from the perspective they had..Matthew was a tax collector..you will see he deals with the 'kingdom' and political P.O.V. ..Luke was a physician...guess who included more 'healing miracles' than Matthew?..John was the youngest, and focused on the Love and spiritual aspect...so his writing make that deeper emphasis. I think it wise for a deeper understanding of what you are putting forth, to take in the perspectives, objectively, of the writers.....whether you agree with them, or not...wouldn't you say??? |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Oct 09 - 01:30 PM hidigbaugh exemplifies how religion can become an addiction like physical narcotics. The addict defends his addiction despite any appeals to his sanity. To use this forum to display his addictive defense seems an abuse of the intelligence on this site, but his right to do it is Constitutional. It stands as a lesson to the extent in which religious cultism and addiction pervades our society. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Oct 09 - 01:40 PM Most of the people I know are far more addicted to money and possessions than to religion. Or they're more addicted to alcohol, various other common drugs, and sex! ;-) They're also addicted to their f*cking home electronic devices (TV, ipod, computer, cell phone, etc). That's why I don't worry about religion as much as you apparently do, Stringsinger. I hardly know anyone who's addicted to religion....and those I do know who are...well, it's a considerably secondary matter to their far more dominant and obvious physical and psychological addictions to the usual material crap that most people in this society are addicted to. Materialism is the ruling religion of THIS society. Now, if I were living in Saudi Arabia on the other hand....THEN I'd be worred about religious addiction! |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 09 - 02:01 PM hmmm... I see the point, but I don't think 'addiction' is a good metaphor for the way religion works on folks. It starts, for most, in childhood....as another fairy tale which children take seriously as a mater of course, then is reinforced by family & church in ways that show it to be 'different' from most fairy tales, in that we accept that we can't verify Hansel & Gretel, but pretend that we can verify religious tales-- even though many of the tales are contradictory. Most 'addictions' are usually recognized as 'bad for us', and as something we should give up. Religion is processed as being basically good, and thus worthy of keeping, no matter what we have to accept to to do so...........and in some ways, for some people, it just may be all that keeps them going. Interesting to comtemplate what would happen *if* everyone were to suddenly NOT believe. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Alice Date: 18 Oct 09 - 04:42 PM For some people, the "high" they get from being in the chosen group, following the "right path", having the "answers" is actually like an addiction. That is why it is so difficult to get people out of a cult, even when there is evidence that it is harming the person or other people. They are hooked in a physical/emotional way. They fear losing what the group or leader or belief system provides. It is something other than just having a religious faith. Trust me, I've seen people even allow their children to be neglected and abused by their "church" because they were so addicted to believing in the leader, addicted to the high they got from being "in". Alice (who has had to help too many people damaged by this con-artist who just died a few days ago Elizabeth Clare Prophet |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: SharonA Date: 18 Oct 09 - 04:51 PM Guest from Sanity sez: "As to Mark not including more on the 'resurrection'...So?? That proves what, again???" Again, it indicates that earlier writings about Jesus didn't include the ever-taller tales of miracles that later writings did. Again, if the miracles had happened, it would be logical to assume that stories about them would have dominated the earliest writings about Jesus' ministry, which they did not. Again, this is to say that your assumption about it being illogical to say that the disciples/apostles endured martyrdom for a story/illusion is itself illogical and unrealistic. Their martyrdom wasn't because of their belief itself, but because their ideas about whom to obey stood in opposition to the reigning powers of the time (the political power of Rome and the socioreligious powers of the Pharisees). Again, as more disciples/apostles were martyred and their courage was in danger of faltering, they needed to rally their people by creating those stories about miracles, just as myths about George Washington were made up during and after the Revolutionary War to rally the believers in American independence. Please remember that when you speak of "perspective". Guest from Sanity sez: "Mark wrote about what Jesus said." Speaking of the perspective of the writers (!), Mark (A.k.a. John Mark) was not a disciple of Jesus; he was a disciple of Peter -- supposedly he was Peter's secretary and wrote what Peter said about what Jesus said. This is why I mentioned the heretical Gospel of Peter earlier, which scholars generally agree was written in the second half of the 2nd century. Therefore, of course, it could not have been written by Peter himself -- perhaps by Peter's school of followers or perhaps by someone who just used Peter's name to give authority to that writing -- and it is quite different from Mark's earlier account of 70 AD. Again, this speaks to the escalation of the fantastic stories about Jesus during the first centuries of Christianity (when Christians were persecuted by Rome and the Pharisees). |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: kendall Date: 18 Oct 09 - 05:09 PM Was it Marharishi something who was driven out of Oregon some years ago? I heard they have invited him back, and they decided to let Bogwhans be Bogwhans. I know...CELLAR |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Oct 09 - 06:03 PM Bill D I think the world would be a better place if people would give up their religious addictions. I'm not convinced that religion improves anyone's life or makes it "good". Addictions keep some people going. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 09 - 07:31 PM "I'm not convinced that religion improves anyone's life or makes it "good". I'm not either, Frank.... I just know that, realistically and practically it would probably take a LONG time for most of humanity to 'do without'. In Europe, where church history and the related wars and violence have worn on folks for centuries, many are quietly moving away from 'traditional' religious concerns and practices. In the US, where we still have so many groups & areas founded in order to follow a religion, and where it is difficult to achieve elected office without declaring a 'mainstream' religion, we have much further to go. And in Muslim countries, we know how pervasive the usually state-supported religion is. I know (from personal experience) that belief in an afterlife is the major way many people cope with grief and loss when friends & relatives die too soon and in ways that seem unfair. I simply can't see any way to just tell them "get over it...death is the end!" The human race took 40,000-100,000 years to create a huge, complex set of beliefs to cope with mystery and pain. With education not exactly up-to-date on some issues, we can't expect people to change in 2-3 hundred years. All *I* really argue hard for is for MY country, the USA, to really practice the "separation of church & state" they 'officially' tell us we have. If the Republican party had kept power a few more consecutive years, I'm afraid some form of conservative Christianity would have become deeply entrenched, both in law & culture. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 18 Oct 09 - 07:52 PM I think it's important to recognize the distinction between religion and spirituality. Many who are not religious do experience spirituality. Science is moving more in the direction of where people who experience spirituality are now, so I don't see spirituality ever leaving the human experience. And the belief that death is the end is as much belief as is belief in an afterlife. We have no proof of either, only the faith of those who either believe there is, or believe there isn't. It's this certainty that some people have that there is no spirit and no kind of life or consciousness after death, and who think their views should be adopted by everyone else (and are better for everyone) that causes me to put them in the very same category as people who are religious. People who believe there is no spirit and no kind of life or consciousness after the death of the body, and who have a desire for everyone else to believe these things also are just as evangelical about their beliefs as any person belonging to an established religion. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 09 - 08:16 PM "Science is moving more in the direction of where people who experience spirituality are now,...". It is? I'm not sure I see what you refer to. I do see the studies showing more & more evidence of the effects of DNA and various forms of 'material causality' in our evolution. It seems to me that spirituality, *IF* one means actual "somethingness" of ourselves that continues after death in the form of conciousness or awareness, has essentially the same problem as traditional religion in explicating its form & reality. Even I see a 'meaning' for spirituality that does not assume any metaphysical actuality. It is expressed in poetry, song, meditation, compassion, metaphor and just the awareness of the vastness of BEING. It is not an issue for me to **deny** either religion or spirituality, but merely to try to objectively describe the issues relating to them. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 18 Oct 09 - 08:23 PM One cannot objectively describe whether or not consciousness continues after death. One can either believe it does doesn't, or they can accept that they don't know for sure one way or another. As time goes by, and I hear more and more about what quantum physics is postulating, the more I find it sounds very much like a lot of New Age thought. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 18 Oct 09 - 08:35 PM This discussion of quantum physics gives a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 09 - 08:46 PM Of course "One cannot objectively describe whether or not consciousness continues after death."....just as one cannot "objectively describe" what Heaven might me like. In BOTH cases, one either believes it or doesn't...which is why I said what I did about them having similar issues in being something other than linguistic metaphor. 'Naming' an emotional state in an interesting way does not, by itself, confer a special reality to it. I will wait a bit before I agree that what quantum physics is doing has that much relevance to the metaphysics suggested in what most folks mean by spirituality. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Peace Date: 18 Oct 09 - 08:49 PM "The Tao of Physics" is a good place to start. However, I do not believe that religions can be imported. They seem to me to be a cultural response to 'spiritualities' that are acceptable in certain places at certain times. If Christ was, and if he came back today without the bells and whistles, who'd believe him? Reference was made earlier to "The Gnostic Bible". It certainly suggests aspects of the life of Christ may not be as the existing churches sees them or h/Him, but again it's interpretation and memories of memories. Much like explanations of how various peoples came to be on Earth or even how Earth itself came to be. Frankly, I don't care what people choose to believe. However, when it begins to impact those around me or me, then I care very much. In the course of my life I have read--cover to cover--The Bible four times. Not much really, but I friggin' well know most Christians haven't even read it once and that makes me suspicious of 1) how much they believe 2) what they believe 3) why they believe I don't believe, but then friends like Dan make me realize that some people have internalized the message of "The Book" and they not only talk the talk but also walk the walk. That's all I have to say. Murdoch |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 18 Oct 09 - 09:00 PM I highly recommend watching the video in the link I posted to get an idea of the direction in which quantum physics is moving. I would put thinking that people should just get over it because death is the end (as expressed by a poster above) in the category of the belief that consciousness doesn't continue after the death of the body. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 09 - 11:22 PM It kinda bothers me to see what I said either mis-read or 'spun' to seem like I suggested that "people should just get over it". I carefully said that this should NOT be done. Thus, whether or not one links it to denial of the continuation of consciousness is subjective and an individual thing. I, personally, do not make that leap in that way. (and I will watch that video with great interest) |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: CarolC Date: 18 Oct 09 - 11:54 PM Perhaps I misread. It looks to me like the belief is there (that consciousness doesn't continue after the death of the body) but that there is a realization that it is futile to try to convince others of that belief. |
|
Subject: RE: Bible prophecy From: Bill D Date: 19 Oct 09 - 11:51 AM It certainly is difficult, in this format, to construct a sentence carefully enough to provide all the nuances and disclaimers. I, personally, DO 'doubt' that consciousness continues after the death of the body. I cannot 'prove' such, so I do not connect my personal...ummm... 'suspicions'... to what I feel appropriate to say to those who DO believe this in the context of their religion. *IF* asked, or if approached by those seeking to convince ME, I will give my reasoning. Waffling? Over-analyzing? *shrug*... It's just that I have spent so much time and study on these things for 50 years, that I have quite a list of fine distinctions assembled. (and, as I have said before, if I am right about MY guess as to what happens after death, I don't even get to say "I told you so!") |
| Share Thread: |
