English folk is 'world music'?

Subject: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:07 AM

This looks interesting, judging by the artists I've heard. But what are we to make of the case put by Colin Irwin in the introduction?

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,synbyn no cookie
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:21 AM

Ha! About time, too... of course there were some of us for whom it never went away, and real credit to the people like Keith Kendrick who kept beavering away without fashionable recognition and to the keepers of many many small folk clubs which kept the thread going when televised football and pub closures removed many venues for singarounds. Of course it's world music- and personally I'm delighted to hear melody making a comeback after many years of exaggerated percussion!

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:31 AM

But what are we to make of the case put by Colin Irwin in the introduction?

Erm, nothing much. Of course English music is world music.

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Ed

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: treewind
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 06:34 AM

It's always been the policy of fRoots to include British (English or "Celtic") music as part of world music, and often publicised as such too - nothing new here.

It contrasts starkly with other definitions of "world music" such as "anything not sung in English"

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:09 AM

I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I was interested by Irwin's comparison between English traditional songs and the West African griot tradition, which I thought was quite a good example of why English folk fits in the 'world music' category. However I gather that its a contentious issue among some world music fans who don't want it included and among some folk fans who think that only our stuff is 'folk'. I've read that in the USA, the Grammies 'world music' definition excludes anything from the British Isles, so that would be music from our ethnic minorities as well as English folk. Really, it shows what a nonsense it is trying to define things carelessly.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:19 AM

Well I guess as far as every country in the world is concerned their indigenous traditional music is their 'Folk', and everyone else's is from the rest of the 'World'.

For the English speaking world, it makes sense to define 'indigenous folk musical traditions', as being distinct from 'non-indigenous traditional musics'.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,Spleen sans cookie
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:33 AM

'indigenous folk musical traditions'

Ah... but then you'd have the triple whammy of trying to define 'indigenous', 'folk' and 'traditions'...

Local music from around the world does it for me. And congrats to fRoots on what looks like a great CD.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:33 AM

Define 'indigenous' please...

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:34 AM

Sorry, cross posted with 'Speen'

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:40 AM

Crow sister said ( how do you italicise, BTW)
'For the English speaking world, it makes sense to define 'indigenous folk musical traditions', as being distinct from 'non-indigenous traditional musics'.'

Does it. There has always been fusion...sea shanties are a complete mix, with African, West Indian, European etc influences.

   Elsewhere in America different mucics blended in Texas, Louisisna, the Appalachians etc.
    categories are for libraries, not the real world.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:45 AM

ha ha.well I was playing folk clubs and festivals and beavering away along with people like the Wilsons,and Steve Turner
when Damien Barber and some of the others was still at school,Of course as usual the people who were out there doing it[folk clubs and festivals] in the seventies eighties, nineties,[and even now get no mention].
funny old game the folk scene,its like history is being rewritten
http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 07:52 AM

And your point is, Dick?

Tug, this post should help you italicise.

Humans have, for whatever reasons (some of them helpful no doubt), tried to categorize things. Whether it's trees, rocks, people or music it never works.

The question is just another blind alley that will help nobody.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 08:56 AM

fRoots described English music as 'the last undiscovered outpost of world music' back in the 90s, and it was a comment made with tongue very firmly in cheek then, so this isn't a new development on their part.

Looks like a good compilation: I might even buy a copy of fRoots for the first time in ages to get a copy of the CD.

It nearly made it to double figures before the inevitable happened, but I confidently predict this thread will now descend into

(a) people criticising the choice of artists
(b) stuck records grinding anti-fRoots axes
(c) repulsive little-Ingerlander nationalism

in 5 ... 4 ...

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Gibb Sahib
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:22 AM

They are marketing categories. I wouldn't try too hard to make them fit reality.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:23 AM

Damien Barber is a good performer and a good friend of mine.
I can remember of the many clubs I played in the eighties,repeatedly playing Goole Folk club,run by Goff and Eileen Sherborne,their son Danny is now a deservedly recognised ANGLO PLAYER,but it was the likes of NicJones Dick Miles, Steve Turner,Gerry Hallom,Keith Kendrick,Roy Harris,Nic Dow Johnny Collins,Pete Coe,Pete Castle and others,that were playing the folk clubs at this time and singing traditional songs.
just to get the record straight.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:31 AM

n bullishly fine fettle courtesy of a thrilling explosion of mainly young artists taking it to new places and making it modern, relevant and vital. The process may have been started in the 1990s by artists like Eliza Carthy and Kate Rusby.[quote froots]
history being re written,it was not a process started in the nineties by theses artists, most of the artists I mentioned above,were young and doing it in the seventies,and eighties,
that is my point.Colin Irwin undoubtedly knows this.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Mavis Enderby
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:40 AM

Being relatively new to what could be called "folk" or "world" music, I wouldn't want to get too hung up on categories & definitions, or whether history is being re-written. But, the statements:

It was as if, almost imperceptibly at first, a generation decided that enough was enough and started to rebel against the homogenised pap it was being force-fed by the unholy coalition of mainstream radio and major record labels

and

For others, their growing interest in what we now call 'world music' inspired them to seek out the equivalent in our own backyard: surely if others could be proud of and fascinated by their own roots and culture, then so could we?

describe my own experience very well.

Pete.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:43 AM

I turned professional in 1976,aged 25,here is arecording made in 1981[I was30]this recording was mainly [95percent] traditional material.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqwtu3xPzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boqwtu3xPzU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItcBocS_x_M&feature=relat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGoYfU2-A54a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:43 AM

We in the US always appreciate the music you foreigners play.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:48 AM

With respect Dick, I fall into the category discussed by Froots and Pete above (despite being brought up a folk kid in the late 60s/ early 70s).

I'd never heard of any of the artists you mention until I totally immersed myself back in the "folk world" about 3-4 years ago. I had very much heard of and owned albums by Eliza Carthy and Kate Rusby.

People like yourself may have kept the flame burning...... it was artisits like Eliza C. and Kate R. who turned it into an inferno.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:51 AM

"We in the US always appreciate the music you foreigners play"

And some of us in the UK appreciate the music that you foreigners play too, Art! :-) :-)

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 09:53 AM

World music is a term made up for marketing purposes. It allows people to homogenize African and Celtic music, Cajun and Mexican, Klezmer and throat music,.... into interesting styles and still be able to fit as a word or two on the CD dividers at Barnes and Noble.

I'm sure to the record buyers in Mombassa, English and American Folk is World music to there own musical experience.

Don

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 10:06 AM

artbrooks

We in the US always appreciate the music you foreigners play.

No, no, Art. You don't understand. There are two sorts or music, "English" and "World".

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:15 AM

Dick Miles said: history being re written,it was not a process started in the nineties by theses artists, most of the artists I mentioned above,were young and doing it in the seventies,and eighties, that is my point.Colin Irwin undoubtedly knows this.

I expect he does. He refers to "Those inspired by the early British folk revival pioneers of the 1950s and '60s to champion the music through the barren years." Which I'd interpret as being the 70's and 80's since he then refers to the 90's. Does he have to namecheck you specifically to avoid "history being re-written"?

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:17 AM

Goole Folk club,run by Goff and Eileen Sherborne,their son Danny is now a deservedly recognised ANGLO PLAYER

Just a couple of minor corrections - its "Sherburn" and the son is called "Chris" not Danny.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:18 AM

Paul, no.That is incorrect.
what happened is that Rusby and to a lesser extent Eliza Carthy were marketed,and that is what is happening now.
thats what this article is about,some people have decided to market English music,and they are promoting part of it.,the parts that they think might be more commercial.
I was there[DOING IT] ,I am not going to sit back and let history be rewritten by the promoters and marketers.
Eliza Carthy is very good,Kate Rusby has a very good voice.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:31 AM

Dick. OK so the marketeers turned it into an inferno then......

This might be unfortunate, but for people to tune into (and start playing) something, they have to hear it first.

I absolutely know that is (promoting & marketing) what Froots and Mr Anderson are doing. What is wrong with tryiing to brng (potentially) good music it to a wider audience? I don't understand your gripe?

I repeat Dick, I had not heard of you (or the other excellent artists you name) until I got really involved in the folk scene and started running a folk club. I struggle to understand how you can claim to have created the new wave of interest..... half of the people on the Froots disc have never even set foot in a folk club, do you really think they are more likely to have heard you or Eliza C and Kate R?

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:42 AM

thanks for that, Guest Ed

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folknacious
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

I just noticed that the CD is "funded by Arts Council England". Things are definitely getting infernal!

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 11:52 AM

Of course English music is world music, unless the British isles have just vanished off the planet of course.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: treewind
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:22 PM

Well, all music is world music, at least...
Uh oh, is that the sound of galloping hooves I hear......?

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM

half of the people on the Froots disc have never even set foot in a folk club

To which "half" do you refer and what relevance has the venue anyway?

I have seen everyone featured on Looking For A New England in a "f*lk club (or at Cecil Sharp House which is surely close, with the exception of Spiro, and that's only because I haven't (yet) seen them live.

As far as the mini-revival of the early 90s is concerned, it needs to be borne in mind that this arose against the background of the ceilidh circuit and the folk club stalwarts such as those on Dick's list, both of which never went away but existed independently of the ascendancy of the dire mish-mash of comedians and singer-songwriters which dominated public consciousness through the 1980s.

Speaking for myself, it was without doubt a concert with Eliza Carthy & Nancy Kerr in 1994 that dragged me back into music. I walked into Gateshead library on the basis that I had known their mums when at a loose end after a disastrous television production was wound up and there I was, exiled and jobless. Very many people date their (re)involvement from this time.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM

Paul ,did I claim that ?
no, what I claimed is that many of us were playing the music and doing imaginative/exciting things back in the late seventies
my ex wife and myself were among the first people to introduce the clarinet and bass clarinet and use it with the concertina in arrangements of traditional music in the folk revival.
I am also claiming that we[along with those already mentioned] helped to keep the folk club scene going,and presented our music in an interesting exciting way without attempting to over commercialise the music.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmqpgT0ClK4
that was 25 years before Waterson Carthy,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItcBocS_x_M&feature=related

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:45 PM

I am not griping,I am stating facts,I dont care a fiddlers fart what other people do,thats their business.
but I do like all the facts surrounding the folk scene of the seventies through to today,to be reported accurately,so that our friends abroad,realise exactly what was happening and happened.
I do not like false impressions to be portrayed in the media.
I wish every success to this recording,and hope that it benefits all the careers of those involved and that it brings new people to appreciate the music.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Banjiman
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 12:57 PM

To which "half" do you refer

Was it the May issue of Froots that Ian Anderson was talking about a number of the artists now featured on this disc as coming from the English (?British) tradition but not via the "traditional" route of folk clubs and festivals? I think this included Ian King & Nancy Wallace, can't remember who the others were. Maybe I should have said a proportion, but the point is the same.


and what relevance has the venue anyway?

Absolutely none, except to answer Dick's point (to which I was replying).

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:18 PM

"Uh oh, is that the sound of galloping hooves I hear......?"

Horsemusic Sir! If English music, or Scots, or Irish, or American can be thought of as seperate entities, with seperate identities, why lump the rest of the world under a heading as banal and meaningless as world music? On the other hand, if the musicians of Bulgaria, Mexico, Chile, Madascar, the Gambia or wherever can be thought of as custodians of the music of this world, what about the rest of us?

As a citizen of this world, I demand parity with the Bulgarians.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 01:25 PM

From the fRoots FAQ:

Q: Are you a Folk or World Music magazine?
A: Neither, both and beyond.

I like that.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 02:02 PM

The story goes that a well-know Donegal fiddler went into a record shop in Dublin where everything pertaining to folk was displayed as 'world music'.
Rather disgruntled at not finding his own album on sale he asked "Do you have anything from anywhere else?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:41 PM

what happened is that Rusby and to a lesser extent Eliza Carthy were marketed...

You seem to indicate that this mini-revival took off because oF marketing.

Whilst you were keeping the flame alive did you not think of marketing?

Did you want to be marketed? If yes what happened. If not, why not?

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 03:46 PM

Well to me it's all Folk Music, nothing else, Folk Music.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: treewind
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:05 PM

Dick: "most of the artists I mentioned above,were young and doing it in the seventies,and eighties"

Yes, but whether you like it or not, nobody took any notice and Joe public knew nothing of them during those decades. The decline Colin Irwin refers to DID happen and as far as folk clubs are concerned it is still happening, though it may have slowed down a little as younger people are starting clubs now.

I don't know how much the wider uptake of folk music since the nineties was caused by Eliza C, Kate Rusby &co. and how much the emergence of these artists is simply the result of a new audience that wasn't tainted by the notion that folk music was "something my (boring, middle aged*) parents do" and thus fatally uncool. No doubt a bit of both. The new revival certainly wasn't caused by the die-hards who managed to keep gigging through those decades, though some credit is due to them for surviving the folk recession and keeping things going.

Anahata
*yes, me too, guilty as charged!

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 04:26 PM

Well, as a mildly anarchistic and err 'alternative' but nevertheless somewhat boring now thirty-sumthing, it was discovering English traditional song essentially all by itself, that got me into English traditional song. I've done African drumming too, and I like sitar music and err stuff. I like anything that sounds good from wherever it comes from, but right now I'm interested in English trad folk - which isn't African drumming or other acoustic stuff from elsewhere.

I can see no particular value in assigning Trad Folk, to a sub-division of World Music (World Music meaning random traditional acoustic stuff from any otherwhere).

I'd be rather surprised if other cultures that retain any remaining interest in their own native folk song and music do the same.

Oh gods, I'm a rampant ickle-Englander. Bums, where did I misplace that BNP card? And where has my "I Heart Fascism" placard got to? Ditzy mare..

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: irishenglish
Date: 13 Oct 09 - 05:06 PM

Ah...another how should it be labelled discussion. Interesting points, but it never ceases to amaze me that this is a hotbed of discussion-then again I did work in a very large World Music department at Tower Records before its demise, and dealt with this sort of thing a lot. It's not about trends, even trends in English folk. It's not about artists who release an album that is half traditonal, half contemporary or self written. To me it's about tradition or tradition inspired (oh dear, now I've made my own label). I feel that anything indidginous in a traditional sense that has not branched off beyond recognition belongs to "world" music. Native American Indian music is world music, so is Cajun. Country music, despite its origins in British Isles folk music has evolved into its own seperate entity, as has Blues, which is why its not World music. The comparison to the griot is completely apt-akin to the oldest ballads in the English tradition..be it sung by Johnny Doughty, Kate Rusby, or Dick Miles. The reason I can say that is by comparison of say Toumani Diabate, the great kora player, who comes from generations of kora players, equally adept at playing the most beautiful traditional melody, or bringing his instrument into new areas, such as with his Symmetric Orchestra. I'll be honest though...I have never liked the World Music monniker, so call it what you want. It seems though that what some of you are arguing is...ok maybe in America you can put English folk in the world music section, but it shouldn't be in England, similar to the story Jim related. There's a fair point there...but if one does honestly compare folkloric traditions worldwide-could some of you not agree that there is a kinship between Malian kora players, Iraqi oud players, and English fiddle players? Throw out the marketing and all the other stuff thats been written here, its irrelevant. It all fits, its all traditional, or traditional inspired music.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:00 AM

As the first decade of the 21st century nears its end, English song – real English song – is in bullishly fine fettle courtesy of a thrilling explosion of mainly young artists taking it to new places and making it modern, relevant and vital.
[quote]Colin Irwin
he then cites Kate Rusby.I beg to differ,and obviously this is only a personal opinion,I think she has an excellent voice,and she has many fine backing musicians,and she is an accomplished guitarist,however I disagree with the phrase; modern, relevant and vital,
Kate Rusby,does not always make English Song vital,here is an example; her singing of Reuben Ranzo,it lacks vitality,her approach is excellent for some songs,but vital, no.
furthermore I dont see how she makes this song any more relevant than BERT LlOYD IN 1965,ColinIrwin is just writing journalistic bullshit.
real english song has been in fine form for the last 40 years,just because a few folk clubs closed,in the eighties,it does not follow that any time real english song was an endangered species,in fact it is more likely to be endangered,as it becomes more commercialised,and pressure is put upon artists to compromise the music to make it more accessible and more popp
the last thing I want is ENGLISH FOLK SONG is to become like the commercialised pap of the New Christy Minstrels.
of course it depends upon which Dictionary interpretation of the word vital you use,if you take the meaning as I do [energetic full ,of life,powerful]this can not be seriously applied to her version of Reuben Ranzo,it is not vital at all.
Commercialising the music can be a double edged sword,the temptation to make big money,can, if the artist is not careful,end up with the music losing its vitality.
fred mcormick,
for the last forty years I have been happy to sing the songs in the way I think they should be sung,I have just got on with the business of trying to do the songs justice occasionally I have failed,but I have met many interesting people enjoyed good company,and yes, I did it in folk clubs,without any hype.
try visiting the Brittania singers club Darlington or the Wilsons Club at Wolviston sometime,thats the sort of place/folk club where the real roots of English music can still be heard.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folknacious
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:21 AM

Advice: when in a hole, stop digging.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:31 AM

Dick before this deteriorates into a Kate Rusby thread, and without dissecting your dictionary interpretation of vital....at least she IS singing Ranzo, as well as other traditional songs.Your point about her is taken...I come and go with her too at times. My point is that Kate, yourself, Sam Larner, John Kirkpatrick, Kathryn Tickell, A.L.Lloyd,Scan Tester, Shirley Collins, to name but a few all have drawn inspiration from the same nearly bottomless well that is English traditional folk music, be it from Suffolk or Northumberland. I see Colin's words, modern, relavent and vital as more an indication of an awareness of that well of music. I've been held as spellbound by Eliza Carthy singing Fisherboy unaccompanied, as I have with Simon Nicol doing Claudy Banks with Fairport, a perfect song for his voice IMO, John K playing a set of tunes on concertina, and Kathryn Tickell doing The Morpeth Rant-it all fits for me personally.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 10:42 AM

"new places "

I think Colin means somewhere apart from folk clubs and festivals.

"modern, relevant and vital"

I think a lot of us would argue that it always was.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:13 AM

I think there are a number of young singers and musicians who are making the music ".........relevant and vital". Talk to the young singers and musicians and most of them they will agree that it always has been.

Eliza has said words to that effect on a number of occasions. So has Jon Boden.

KR for ages argued its relevance in her rare interviews.

I don't see where young singers and musicians have compromised the music at all for commercial gain.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Banjiman
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:19 AM

"I don't see where young singers and musicians have compromised the music at all for commercial gain."

Agreed

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: treewind
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 11:25 AM

Colin Irwin: "thrilling explosion of mainly young artists taking it to new places and making it modern, relevant and vital."...
Dick: "he then cites Kate Rusby"
So what?
There's also Spiers and Boden, Bellowhead, Bella Hardy, Jim Causley, Mawkin, The Askew Sisters, Nancy Kerr & James Fagan (apologies for anyone obvious I've not mentioned) who are young, fiercely traditional in their main choice of material AND have plenty of the vitality of the sort that you find lacking in KR.

And the point is I couldn't have made a list like that 20 years ago.

Anahata