English folk is 'world music'?

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,Ian Anderson, fRoots
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:47 PM

To answer/ clarify a few points and anticipate a few that haven't been made yet:

When I proposed an English folk CD to Arts Council England, to my surprise I discovered that they were about to propose something similar to us. The trigger for it was that they wanted to promote English folk music at the annual Womex conference/ showcase/ conference: over 3000 international activists/ movers & shakers from the 'world music' field who gather annually in a European city - this year Copenhagen. English folk music has had a raw deal from the powers-that-be there: even when it was held in the UK at the Sage Gateshead, the Eliza Carthy and Bellowhead showcases were held "off Womex", not as part of the main event. So one of the main thrusts of Colin's notes was to put the case for our long-held belief that this music had every right to be considered part of the genre. My job as compiler was to give them the music to impress them. Not hard!

There were some other ground rules. We wanted to largely pick artists who were younger, newer and who could benefit from the professional development brought about by Arts Council investment - Eliza, Bellowhead, Kate etc were felt to have sufficient momentum of their own already - or were doing something musically new right now (hence Jon Boden's Remnant Kings and Chris Wood's very interesting new trio). Then I pressed the case for the Shirley Collins track to put it all in a bit of historical perspective.

The very encouraging thing is that my biggest problem was who to leave out. As has been said, that's not something which could have been the case if trying to make a compilation with this one's groundrules and intentions in (say) the mid 1980s.

As for "commercial appeal", it's rather telling that I approached the UK's main world music compilation label last year with exactly such a project and was told that it didn't have any commercial potential. I hope to prove them very wrong.

As a result of the ACE's initiative, as well as going out to all who read fRoots, the magazine with this CD will be in the delegate "goody bags" of 3100 people at Womex and another few hundred at this year's Association Of Festival Organisers conference in the UK. The Arts Council's involvement doesn't stop there though. They are working on a project to take a showcase package of some of the artists on this CD to New York and the massive South By South West event in Texas next year, and perhaps also fund its inclusion in some non-folk festivals in the UK as well. I think they deserve congratulating for this initiative.

Nobody's denying that there were people who, as Colin Irwin says, were there to "champion the music through the barren years" but it wasn't possible (nor, dare I say it, very interesting to the target audience of Womex delegates) to namecheck them all.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:53 PM

At last! Someone is actually questioning the ridiculous HMV Marketing Dept. definition of folk music as opposed to endlessly bitching about the 'scientific' (1954) definition.

According to the aforementioned HMV definition: 'folk music is anything acoustic, apart from 'folk rock', but excluding acoustic 'blues', 'country' or 'world music' and including military bands which don't fit anywhere else'.

But then I suppose stupidity and ignorance were always more attractive than science and common sense. Why has it taken Colin Irwin all this time to find this out?

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:54 PM

well every success with it, Ian.
Anahata,it depends how you define young,twenty years ago you would have found plenty of people in their thirties,who were playing the music with vitality,and you could have produced a list of names equal quality,so sorry I disagree with you.
I now consider thirtyish young,all these things are relative.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

folknacious, advice;stop being a twat.
Banjiman,I never said that any of the artists on this recording had done so yet.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:18 PM

Well said Ian.

Interesting that the Arts Council are pumping money into this! Along with the award to the EFDSS and this can only represent good news.

Not all that long ago it was argued on this board that taking money from ACE was equivalent to selling one's soul to Virgin.

Can we get it on the next EDS too?

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:23 PM

Very interesting story there Ian, thanks for posting it. 3100 people getting that cd in their goody bag is a good thing, and makes total sense! Much like Johnny Cash singing "there's things that will never be right I know," in compiling a cd of this nature, there's people that should be, or could be on it...but as you said, its a judgement call, you can't please everyone-just go with it. Rather like me when I try to make a playlist for my ipod...I go from trying to limit myself to picking, oh...say 5 Oysterband songs, and wind up with 50. Hope this accomplishes what you set out for, and that that label (hmm...wonder who that is)is definitely proven wrong.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 01:37 PM

Ian - since you're here, a chance to say congratulations on a job well done that very much needed doing.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,Pete Castle
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 02:37 PM

Thanks Good Soldier; Nice to see my name mentioned there alongside some good mates and people I respect greatly (Nic Jones Dick Miles, Steve Turner, Gerry Hallom, Keith Kendrick, Roy Harris, Nic Dow, Johnny Collins, Pete Coe, Pete Castle...) I've been playing English music professionally since 1978 and it's never been easy. It's always been a minority taste even in folk clubs. The reason I do it though is because it's what I love.
Back in the 80s/90s I was really into World Music as a listener. I think some great stuff was brought to our attention because of it. Salif Keta springs to mind. It included everything from foreign pop music to real authentic folk. But it was commercially based. I remember complaining to fRoots at that time that they fell over themselves with enthusiasm about some scratchy cassette recording from Africa but expected musicians based in UK to have the production values of a Michael Jackson even though, in real terms, we were perhaps less well off!
The English folk scene has always been very self centred. My two ventures into what could be classed as World Music were kept at arms length by the folk clubs. First a duo with Bengali singer Aroti Biswas - admittedly we didn't do much because she got ill and died, but the couple of posthumous tracks I put on one of my albums were greeted with umm?s even though I still think at least one of them (The Two Magicians) was great. Then in the 90s the Anglo-Romanian group Popeluc could have been really big. We played all over, but not many folk clubs. Not many World Music venues either for that matter - they liked the idea of the group but when they heard a demo they tended to say, No, too folky!. They needed drums and electric bass. So we did arts centres, community festivals, The Dracula Society! All sorts of things.
Anyway, I'll keep doing what I do. In folk clubs and anywhere else that will have me. I still enjoy it and a good folk club gig is hard to beat. I still do mainly English and mainly traditional but that's two more definitions we could argue about. And have done!
Pete Castle
http://www.petecastle.co.uk

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 03:17 PM

Anahata,Twenty years ago,Damien Barber was a professional singer.
plus Steve Turner,the young Lee Collinson,a young Roger Wilson The Wilson Family[two of whom were in their twenties [mike and ken],Beggars Velvet,Tim laycock[early thirties],Nic Dow[thirties]Artisan[Idontknow I didnt /dont ask women their age]Pete Morton,thats a very strong line up.
Anahata ,Idont know where you were,but I was there.
finally, I urge everyone to obtain and listen to Pete Castles version of Two Magicians,which was way ahead of its time    innovative,imaginative,and cross cultural,mixing eastern and western musics and Musicians,but never got proper acclaim because,it was never pushed by those people who claim to be lovers of world music.
Ian, that was one you missed ,but shouldnt have done.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 03:57 PM

I don't know what the hell "World Music" is supposed to define. It seems to depend upon where the music (CD's, sheet music,etc.) is being sold. I have seen English, Irish and Scottish traditiional music labeled as such, along with various music with African and eastern European origins, Peruvian pan pipe tunes, Caribbean music of varying sorts and Greek and middle eastern music usually associated with belly dancing. Isn't this, after all, simply a catch-all label for retailers who don't know how else to categorize the music they place in it?

I'm certain that Liam Clancy will be amused to know that at least one major U.S. chain of book and record shops has his work with The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem categorized as "World Music."

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: irishenglish
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 06:35 PM

TJ- in some stores it most certainly is because retailers don't know how to categorize it. As I posted earlier, I feel that anything traditional based from anywhere is "world music." If someone in Argentina was looking for Irish traditional music, wouldn't it be logical to be in the same place as the African, Middle Eastern, and Asian music? In a perfect world it would all make logical sense, but as a former retailer, some times you just do what makes the most sense, and not nitpick too much. At the Tower where I worked our World section had Latin music of all types, Brazilian and other South American musics like tango, all European music seperated by country, and sometimes sub-sorted to account for music from say Spain, which has diverse music from individual regions, Gypsy music, Middle Eastern, Asian, African....and Irish, Scots and other Celtic music, along with English folk. It all made sense to us, and we tried very hard to in fact be as thorough as possible to suggestions. Can you think of anywhere else you saw not just a bunch of middle eastern cd's not just jammed in together, but actually seperated by country, or that had not just a French section, but also a Breton section as well. That is what we strived for. It wasn't all traditional music of course....some things were split up-Astrid Gilberto, some people look for in jazz, some look for in Brazilian sections, so it went to both. So for us it made perfect sense to include English folk musics (not a typo, I said musics) because it reflected traditional, or traditional inspired music. I think it makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: oldhippie
Date: 14 Oct 09 - 08:38 PM

My weekly radio show genre is "World Freeform" and I mix celtic and folk with Euro-pop and jazz, and end up with a little Americana. My listeners seem to like it. You can peruse what I play here:

http://djfrank-myplaylists.blogspot.com/

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: theleveller
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 03:57 AM

The great thing (for me) about folk music is that it can exist on so many global levels. I love the "context" of songs (old and new) that come from and are performed in a local area. But if and when these songs appeal to a wider audience, they take on a different life and have different relevances to the audience – often being adapted and changed along the way.

There is an excellent article by Reg Meuross in this month's Acoustic magazine – the second in his series about the history of folk music in the British Isles. He talks about how Bob Dylan came to London in the early sixties and soaked up English folk music – becoming especially friendly with Martin Carthy. After a short trip to Italy, Dylan came back and played Martin what he called his version of Scarborough Fair – Girl from the North Country. Lord Franklin was to follow in the form of Bob Dylan's Dream – old tunes and themes, new context. Martin , apparently, not only liked them but was flattered that his singing of the songs was the catalyst.

Is English folk music world music? Yes.........and no.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 06:12 AM

Bob Dylans Dream is IMO,an inferior song to the Croppy boy and lord Franklin,He soakedit up and produced a damp squib.
MastersOFWar now thats a different kettle of fish.
Pete Castles astounding version of The Two Magicians is just one example of the musical innovations of the eighties,that were ignored by the musical folk establishment,so do you wonder that I get annoyed,when an impression is given that the Eighties was some kind of folk dark ages.
Colin s remarks give me the impression that nobody was doing anything vital before the present crop of stars on this recording.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 07:31 AM

I remember having a convesation with Martin Carthy at Bridgwater Folk club in, I think, 1985 and he was quite despondant at the state of English folk at that time, with few new artists on the scene.
I had another conversation with him about a year later at Battersea folk club and he was much more hopeful and inspired with the folk scene.
Looks to me like these things come in cycles.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 08:31 AM

I have always found Martin Carthy most encouraging and helpful.[for example his playing guitar on Cheating The Tide]
there were in the Eighties many good songwriters Jez Lowe[he THEN sang traditional songs as well and was also only in his thirties],BillCaddick,Peter Bond,Paul Metsers,Dave Walters[who did interesting settings of William Blake],Martin Simpson,and many more,it was a vibrant time with plenty of good vital songs being written and lots of innovation.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 09:31 AM

oh and Brian Peters[in his twenties]Gordon Tyrall,songwriter Richard Grainger,Bryony,Strawhead ,ETC ETC

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folknacious
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:19 AM

Dick Miles: as I said several hundred years up this thread, all those names would be the people Colin Irwin referred to as " "Those inspired by the early British folk revival pioneers of the 1950s and '60s to champion the music through the barren years."

Ian Anderson said above: "Nobody's denying that there were people who, as Colin Irwin says, were there to "champion the music through the barren years" but it wasn't possible (nor, dare I say it, very interesting to the target audience of Womex delegates) to namecheck them all."

We all understand that you're sore about not getting a namecheck. But considering that you bang on about people marketing and promoting and commercialising the music, this sounds awfully like the whining of somebody with a grudge that they didn't get famous. Somebody with a massive chip on their shoulder for it, at that. If pointing that out makes me "a twat", then to descend to your level it takes one to know one.

Has anybody heard the CD yet?

No matter how many people were "championing the music through the barren years", and regardless of how old they were at the time, unfortunately they didn't capture the imagination of a wider audience the way that Eliza Carthy, Kate Rusby, Kathryn Tickell and others did later on. That's not a value judgement, it's a statement of historical fact.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 15 Oct 09 - 11:46 AM

Dick, thanks for the name check although I'm possibly not quite as young as you think I am. Yes, we did champion the music through the barren years, and I certainly wasn't "crushed by media indifference". But I think fROOTS had a pretty good record back then in sticking up for English music - I'm always reminding people that Ian was happy to print my journalistic efforts about my heroes like Pete and Chris Coe, Roy Harris etc. during the 'barren years', and didn't Chris Foster get a feature recently?

Personally I've been thrilled to bits with the kind of music that Eliza, Spiers & Boden, Kerr & Fagan, etc. have been making. Not only are those people very talented but, observing a folk world in which the clubs were clearly going to be an inadequate source of work for the aspiring musican, they developed the kinds of act that would work well on bigger stages, and more power to them.

If I wanted to hear really great singing in a more intimate setting, though, I'd still plump for Alison McMorland and Geordie MacIntyre, Peta Webb and Ken Hall, or Kevin and Ellen Mitchell. The older generation still has plenty to offer - and perhaps a few things to teach the younger generation.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Smedley
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 07:51 AM

To answer the question whether anyone has heard the CD yet - yes, and it is pretty good. For my personal taste, there are perhaps better tracks from some of the artists than the ones selected, and it would have been good to see the wonderful Ruth Notman there too - but I am nit-picking really.

It's also, I suspect, going to be looked back on as a significant moment in the gnarled & contentious history of English folk.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folknacious
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 11:57 AM

The CD found its way here and I must say its surprisingly good. I say "surprisingly" because with the artists on board I expected high quality, but it's even a case of "whole is better than sum of (excellent) parts". fRoots CDs are usually well programmed and this one flows really well. Loads of variety too, and an excellent package, a cut above the usual magazine freebies. English folk done proud, and I agree with Smedley's suspicion that it's a significant moment, especially for the fact that it marks the Arts Council getting properly involved and backing the right pony for a change.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 06:37 PM

To "irishenglish:"

I lament the passing of the great old record shops such as Tower Records. The last one closed here a couple of years back, much to my chagrin. We have one or two specialty shops still selling CD's and even some vinyl. I hope it was not your fate to be among those "downsized" by the demise of the chain.

Thanks for the thoughtful response.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 09 - 09:20 PM

DonMeixer wrote:

"I'm sure to the record buyers in Mombassa, English and American Folk is World music to there own musical experience."

Great Point!

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: SteveMansfield
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 06:22 AM

I got my copy of the CD over the weekend and it's been on the stereo in the car ever since - a really good mixture, well sequenced as has already been said, and a couple of acts I'd not heard before and intend to chase up.

Only one or two tracks which I consider below par (personal opinion, YMMV), but the rest is excellent. Well worth tracking down.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 10:32 AM

It is welcome news that the Arts Council of England is giving support to folk music in this way following their support for the EFDSS although it does have to be seen in the context of the major cuts to regional organisations last year. It may just be a redistribution of the same money. The best of luck to the performers on this CD, several of whom we have been booking for years and some of whom we hope to book in the future.

The OP's original question was - But what are we to make of the case put by Colin Irwin in the introduction?

Somewhat confused, I think.

He says "their horizons uninhibited by the pressure of peers and the weight of what's gone before them." which is a rather strange statement for a publication that has Roots in its title. Are the top branches of a tree inhibited by its roots? Surely it is part of what makes it traditional music that it grows from what went before; not to slavishly copy but to build on that foundation.

Colin claims "They've taken different routes to the tradition" and then goes on to contradict himself several times over in the individual write ups for the artists.

Spiro -, a band who've slowly evolved from the Bristol session scene

The Unthanks - Steeped in the rich heritage of Northumbrian folk music,

Jackie Oates - Her song featured here comes from the repertoire of an English folk song treasure house, the Copper Family of Sussex.

Dogan Mehmet - a second generation Turkish Cypriot from Brighton creating an ebullient blend of both English and Turkish folk music,

        (Do's Turkish influences come from his family and he found English traditional music through his school friend Matt Quinn, son of Dan Quinn.)

Nancy Wallace - before rediscovering the traditional music that her folkie parents had plied her with as a child.

Mary Epworth's - First hearing Shirley Collins at the same time as discovering an old picture of her great-great-grandfather playing in a family group, the Jubilee Band, in Norfolk in the 1880s, put her in touch with her roots.

Damien Barber was dubbed the Demon Barber by his mentor, the late great Peter Bellamy.

To suggest that these artists came to English traditional music through listening to World Music on the internet seems a little fanciful.

Ian Anderson says "Then I pressed the case for the Shirley Collins track to put it all in a bit of historical perspective."

Shirley is most definitely not history. Alas, she no longer sings but she spreads the word with her various shows (see her website) and gives voice masterclasses (for instance, 17th and 18th April next year at the Lewes Saturday Folk Club).

Yes, English folk music went through a barren patch and it is good to see it re-emerging but please give proper regard for those who carried the flame. Whether it will benefit from being taken under the World Music umbrella (which strikes me as little more than a marketing label) remains to be seen.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: irishenglish
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 11:42 AM

To Guest-well thank you. I was there when the announcement came that Tower was offically liquidated, but moved on to a non music related job, where I still am 3 years later. As I have said on here before, I lament Tower not for the job (which was poor paying), but for what is now lost for the most part. Luckily in NYC we still have J&R, probably the closest thing to a Tower, as well as small independents...but I'm not always up for that-searching through stacks and stacks of vinyl or cd's...sometimes you just want to go to a section, and find what you want. To everyone else, I think the point has been successfully made that to someone in a country other than Britain, the traditional music, or traditional inspired music of England is fittingly, world music. Some see that as a label, but I see it as where it does belong. My point about Tower Records for one thing was meant to show that it could in fact live happily next to African music and Irish music, and Cuban music, as Cajun and Native American, etc music probably does in a record store in Buenos Aires.

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: Folknacious
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 12:09 PM

"Snail": Awesome! Not a nit left unpicked or axe left unground. Deconstruction as a fine art. If there is a "Nitpicker Of The Month" award, it's surely yours. ;-)

It's what Mudcat's for . . .

Subject: RE: English folk is 'world music'?
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Oct 09 - 12:24 PM

You asked the question, Folknacious.