Max is taking action

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:29 PM

Forgot to say (another ms. know it all:-): there comes a time when one no longer wants to turn the other cheek, so to speak. A bully will continue until someone sticks up for themselves and they have to draw in their horns. To not respond, repeatedly, didn't seem to do any good. Still and all I think most of the Mudders kept their tempers very well.

I'm off to the Tavern, too. Those amarettos are tasting pretty good!

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Matthew B.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:26 PM

But seriously, how could you stop Mr Viscious from continually re-entering as someone new and continuing his assault?

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Matthew B.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:21 PM

Oh annap, I love you too.

So, how was your gathering?

- Matthew (tangent maker) B

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:18 PM

IMO (Ms now-it-all here again) censorship is far different than putting a halt to stalking. I was going to ask "what happens if I say something stupid in the heat of the moment?" Well, no matter how stupid I get, I'm never going to get so mad at someone I follow them around from thread to thread just to harass them - which is what I think happened here. There's no way in hell this could be considered censorship. Dick, what he was doing was not simply starting arguments or ruffling feathers - he was scaring people.

I honestly think the way the group as a whole reacted to the above person was more of a reason for Shambles' leaving than what that person did, but I could be wrong.

One guy stopped in and did the equivalent of thanking us for wasting his time. I'm sorry, but I wouldn't judge a forum's worth from the postings I read during one visit than I'd judge a conversation from hearing a couple of minutes of conversation.

Sheesh - am I grumpy, or what? I'm heading to the Tavern for a drink and a hug.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:16 PM

I applaud your decision, Max, and do think that something needs to be done. I should hope that the actions you described are effective. I too feel, as Catspaw says, that a free thinking individual has a hard time NOT throwing his opinion into a discusion, but I feel the majority of us know when and HOW to put in our two cents. Long live the Mudcat, and may all who take part in it feel at home and comfortable with what we do here!

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Allan C.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:15 PM

Dick, and others,

The problem I see with simply not posting after someone has laid out some bait is that such a person could effectively kill numerous threads that would have otherwise continued amicably. To continue to do that could have even more of a disruptive effect. So I see no better way to deal with such a situation than to nip it before it blossoms. The larger problem here was that this person didn't just stop at disrupting threads. There were many other nastinesses done by other means. For this reason, (and perhaps more for this than the other) I fully support Max's action and resultant policy. I have more to say but there's a thunderstorm brewing and I want to send this before it blows out the power.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:11 PM

Dear Max,

You have every right to do what you have done and I, for one, am glad of it. As a woman maybe I am more aware of the implications of such attacks as we've seen recently. I came to the conclusion that it would not be in my best interests to respond and I did remove my email address from the Mudcat, as a precaution only.

I like your criteria: that of everyone feeling safe and comfortable. Up until this last weekend, I did. I also felt very sad for the other people whom I knew were hurt or scared by the personal tone of the attacks.

For the critics who complain of not enough music threads, I would say I feel I am in good company, posting to the many with BS in their title: Art Thieme, Rick Fielding, Catspaw, Banjer, LEJ, Big Mick, .....all much more musicians than I'll ever dream of, yet enjoying the balance, as I do, of all of the discussions with music and without, although music does tend to get into any and all of the threads, which is as it should be, IMHO.

Free Forum does not have to include outright and vicious anarchy. Thank you Max, I am sorry I didn't contact you in a personal message before this.

katlaughing

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: bbelle
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:09 PM

To the above Mudcatters who said that maybe you crossed the line a time or two ... this is not about crossing lines ... this is about racism, anti-semitism, and theats. None of you have every cross THAT line ...

Max ... thank you and your volunteers ... moonchild

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Chet W.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 05:02 PM

I agree with Max. It makes me a little uncomfortable, and I wonder if maybe I have crossed the line a time or two myself, but I had no idea people were being threatened or stalked. We have to get Shambles and the other guys back. This thing is too good to lose.

How do we get them back, Chet W.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:56 PM

As I stated with Art somewhere or another, I'd prefer to have some of Mudcat then none. Please understand folks that I'm a card carrying ACLU member, but that's another topic. Dick and many others have repeatedly, ad infinitum, ad nauseum (go ahead, add it up) said "Don't Post!!!" Problem being: This is such a verbal and opinionated bunch, it's almost a Catch-22. I debated all day about posting to Sham's thread even because I don't want to dignify the situation with any response...but if I don't, I let it go without saying what I should, but I don't want..................geez, whatajoke! Even Dick's posting above shows the irony of the situation. By posting he continues to do what he doesn't want and by my commenting I continue to do what neither of us wants and on and on.....................................Yeah, I know it's different, responding to a bully, but this whole situation still involves a response to ONE person.

Mudcat has for better or worse become more than music and I can but second Rick's opinions and feelings above. You know if any of you get a chance, you need to dig up one of Lenny's old routines about how we first got police. Do what you have to do Max, it's your site, your rules.....you're handling it well and if I don't trust your judgement, I'll go elsewhere. Hope to see you at the Tavern later......it's been a rough day with the "boys.".....But that too is another story. You can buy me a triple club soda and a WHOLE lime.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Bert
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:52 PM

Matthew B,

We have all 'put our foot in it' at times. I don't see that anyone else need be concerned.

The 'line' is that which exists in ALL societies. 'We have to get along with one another'. We can and do forgive and accept quite a lot of mistakes, outbursts and differences of opinions, but if one is CONSISTENTLY NASTY, or percieved to be dangerous, then they will be ostracised.

This is Max's machine and he has the final say in whatever goes on here. It is up to us to make sure that Mudcat is something he want's to keep supporting (and paying for).

Bert.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: annamill
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:44 PM

Matthew, you would never be vindictive or mean. You can disagree without calling names or insulting personally. This person couldn't and refused all steps toward reconciliation from the injured party.

Dick, I don't think it's actually censorship. We couldn't have a discussion without an evil influence imposing itself in the conversation. It wasn't what was said, it was how it was said. The ideas this person had would have been accepted, if disagreed with, if not for the hate and evil behind it. That's not censorship, that's removing an an nonproductive influence.

There was no love or respect there or even simple human dignity. I hate censorship as much as you, (read my post in the censorship thread) but enough is enough!

He's even making YOU think of leaving us. That's not a good thing.

Love (but not for that party), annap

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: skarpi
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:44 PM

dear Max, as I said to shambles I do not know what all this is about, why are they leaving mudcat???????

Hope they stay, all the best from me In Iceland. skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:25 PM

Max- I wish you'd reconsider. I divorced myself from the Irish Traditional Music List because they couldn't find any way of dealing with an annoying poster other than kicking him off; I think that free discussion means just that. Nobody's sadder to see people like Shambles and Martin leave than I am; I wish they'd reconsider. But the real problem is, IMO, all those people that rise to the bait and keep posting and posting and posting on threads that would die of their own accord if left alone. To my thinking, a little censorship is like a little pregnancy.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Matthew B.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 04:15 PM

Well, Max, I see your point, but I wonder if I really know what you mean by "crossing the line" when I'm not really sure of where that "line" is.

Do you think you could draw us a map? Or more precisely, could you put together a "general guidelines for Mudcat behavior" thingie -- as is already common in many of the professional (e.g. computer programming) forums I belong to? 'Cause I'd hate to get thrown off the 'cat for trying to be witty (or at least half-witty).

While I must admit that I have put my foot in my mouth enough times to have a permanent footprint on my tongue, my intentions are never malicious, so I'd hate to be misunderstood.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:47 PM

Wow Max! Tough decision. Gosh I hope the only thing that ever inspires one of us to call you is "totally blatant single-entendre, nastiness".(and repeatedly, at that)
I love to talk, suggest, argue, and make jokes about folk music and folk singers (been doin' it for many years) but the enjoyment I've gotten from the "talkin', arguin', and especially the jokin" about current events, politics, sex, religion, and personal philosophies, is what makes Mudcat so special and ABSOLUTELY unique to me. People leave in the heat of passion...but they often come back (even if they do it anonymously for a while...it's a pride thing, I guess) 'cause this is Special. I'm sure the "Catters" you spoke privately to (whoever they are) realize this even more than I do, and felt that it was the only possible option. (I agree, for what it's worth) I just hope that it's a long time before another "blip" like this happens, and that anyone who's got a complaint will share it openly with the rest of us. That's worked in the year that I've been here, and from digging back a couple of years seems to be the way to go.
Appreciate all you've done.
Rick Fielding

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Melodeon
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:46 PM

forgot to add that the Mudcat tavern has restored all my faith in the forum it is great to feel so much friendship

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Margo
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:43 PM

Here here, Max. As I stated before, Government is a necessary evil. (Not that YOU're evil, dear Max!) I think you are acting appropriately.

Margarita

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Melodeon
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:42 PM

Thank you Max, As a relative newcomer to the forum I have been wondering recently what I have joined but the musical threads have kept me here, however some of the non musical threads are so interesting that I read those as well but I have been increasingly uncomfortable with them. I don't know Shambles but having read many of his postings he is obviously a person to be respected, I also do not have any idea who the person is that has been suspended but I trust your judgement on that score. I really hope that this is the first and only time that you have to make such a decision.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:36 PM

Gee, Max,

My first impression is that I am sorry it had to come to this. As I have mentioned before, I am adverse to rules as a solution to a human problem. I am not, however, an anarchist. I think there are many rules that exist to keep the ruled community in existance. I realize that the world is a far from perfect place. When the arms of the 'Cat are thrown wide open it is bound to get some of the flotsam and jetsam of humanity.

If you pulled who I think you pulled, I don't have any strong qualms about it. The person I have in mind still seemed to be trying to "pluck everyone's last nerve" (as they say here in Baltimore).

I imagine they will not call you. If they do, it should be quite an interesting call. Oh, to be a fly on the wall for that conversation (you don't really have flies on the wall, though, do you?).

My bottom line, Max, is that this site owes everything to you and I think that gives you the right to do as you see fit. I haven't met you in person (though I hope you're coming to the October Getaway), but you have struck me through your postings as a right decent chap. You have left a path back in for those who choose to take it.

I sure hope this works.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: annamill
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:30 PM

Max,

Can't the person you eliminated just come in and sign in as someone else?

I'm sorry you had to, but glad you did, take these steps.

Love,annap

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Max
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:21 PM

Do not put away your soap boxes. These efforts are to allow us to share our thoughts and feelings and opinions, not to diminish them. I am more interested in people feeling safe, and am most concerned with stalking behavior. I want people to feel safe using their names and talking about their families, etc. I am after those who make us feel unsafe and uncomfortable. I would never try to control the very strong opinions of you Catters. Don't worry, this is a subtle action that 99.9% will never have to worry about. I just thought I would share with you my thinking and efforts to keep this place fun and safe. So pull your soap boxes out and keep on preachin.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Den
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:17 PM

Sometimes somebody has got to say enough.

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Tiger
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:13 PM

Geez, Max, I'm sorry you had to do that.

I'd hoped it would run it's course and just fizzle out, like a bad cold. I've been uncomfortable with a number of the forum posters lately, but I think tolerance for other's opinions (or ravings) is just one of the membership requirements in this electronic ether world.

Still, many of us can't resist rising for the bait when some wacko trolls his treble-hooked political lure past our noses. I guess there are still too many chips on too many shoulders, but I think it's getting better, overall.

Here's hoping we can come to our collective senses and muddle along without supervision.

.....Tiger (stealthily returning inflatable soapbox to desk drawer)

Subject: RE: Max is taking action
From: Allan C.
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 03:01 PM

Thanks, Dad. Sorry you have to take time off from work to look after the kids. But I guess it comes with being a parent.

Subject: Max is taking action
From: Max
Date: 22 Jul 99 - 02:55 PM

I've been doing a lot of thinking about the tone of the Mudcat lately. The Shambles leaving finally allowed me to come to some kind of conclusion about how to handle it from a Mudcat Administrator point of view. For one thing, I have marveled at the comradery and love and knowledge and friendship that the Mudcat has been. I have felt safe in meeting new people here and inviting them into my home. But something is changing.

To get to the point, I have decided to watch the threads with the help of some of the volunteers and communication with all Mudcat members to identify people who "cross the line". Obviously there is a lot of interpretation and gray area in determining this, but I am going to make it black and white. It's real simple. If I FEEL that you are not a positive factor in this community and/or said things to drive folks away or scare anybody, etc., your membership will be deactivated until you call me on the telephone to personally discuss the situation. I cannot let another fine person leave, and I cannot support a community where people are not comfortable sharing who they are and what the love, and I will not continue publishing the Mudcat if we cannot find a way to control it.

Last night, after discussing the situation with a few fellow catters, I have suspended a member's account. We will see where my theory leads us soon.

Just remember. Membership and even participation to this site is a privilege. I cannot control everything (believe it or not) but I can make it very difficult for people to use this site if I do not want them to.

Anyhow, I love all of you and am trying my best to maintain what I think was a miracle the first place. Please feel free to send me a Personal Message any time you think someone has crossed the line (please be thoughtful and tolerant though), for I cannot read every thread. Also, feel free to share with me any ideas you have to keep the peace. That's all for now.