BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:33 AM

Actually Dick.

It was MBSGeorges (Georgina Dale) outing of herself that was one of the prime catalysts for the founding of FaF. So, maybe we should be thanking her. It was only after that little spat that people became aware of Right wing infiltration of the music and traditions of these islands. and the missapropriation of artists compositions for their own ends.
It's worth repeating that FaF is a single issue campaign. It's to prevent Right wing political parties from allying themselves (without permission) to artists and traditions.

Interestingly, I've never knowingly seen, met, or heard Georgina (not being a devotee of the Sidmouth Middle Bar). But, whilst at the festival this summer, I was told that she turned up in the Anchor (Middle Bar venue), and was snubbed by all her old friends. I think that her ex mates led the tirade against her.
Regards Ralphie

(Is that nice enough for you Villan!!)

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:34 AM

Well everybody is being pretty nice to each other. A comment which was as good a way as you could have of marking a "100" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:36 AM

Well, well. Once again my attention is drawn to a below-stairs thread by someone who thinks I ought to know about it. Almost certainly, I don't need to know about it (I've seen more than enough of this sort of crap already) I will doubtless regret it, but here goes.

As for an alleged "anti-christian bias" on Mudcat, I have noticed one or two threads started in defence of busy-body health care workers who tried to "pray" for their patients and were rightly disciplined by their trusts for contravening the terms of their contracts. From what I read, those who backed the trusts' actions were simply upholding the principle of a secular health service. A second strand of this bumbling brand of hypocrisy is that well-known singer-songwriter renowned for his anti-abortion lyrics. It is surely a matter of legitimate debate on this forum whether this artist should be booked at major festivals and "religion" does not, necessarily, enter into it. And the third strand is that of the "upstanding (they think), patronising, sexist blokes who preface their posts with how prominent they are in their christian communities (I'm NOT talking about Joe Offer in this instance) and thus have some sort of right to pontificate on women's dress and behaviour and to be as sexually predatory towards them as they want.

Oddly (or not), all these perhaps at first sight unconnected groupings fall miraculously under the dubious GEFF (Good Enough For Folk) umbrella. Trad music (American & British) is what this forum is supposed to be about. And what I (and quite a lot of others) are concerned about is upholding its quality and excellence and not tolerating its dumbing down.

Joe Offer has made the extraordinary statement the MBS George, the now-exposed Chippenham would-be BNP councillor, "never said a nasty or bigoted word at Mudcat". Not so. Long before I knew that she was a fucking fascist (but not before my history of opposition was well-known) she was laying into me and others whose stance was, roughly, "don't play or sing out till you can". Must be a reflection of the warped brand of what constitutes democracy in BNP circles. And an excellent reason for making sure they don't get near to hijacking our music.

Oh, and if anyone's interested, that's 100.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:40 AM

No, it was 103.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: theleveller
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 10:41 AM

"one day when MBSGeorge posted on a BNP thread, and people just ganged up and battered her. MBSGeorge is a longtime Mudcatter and a longtime member of the UK folk community, and I hear from people who know her that she is a very nice person."

Can I just state some fact about the BNP? They are openly and unashamedly racist - as anyone who has listened to them or read their literature will know. They oppress and persecute minorities because of their race and religion. Their constitution has been declared illegal in the British courts. Many of their most prominent members have convictions for violence and racial crimes. Sorry, Joe, but anyone who supports them is definitely NOT a nice person, no matter what face they put on it. Oppossing them is not self-righteous - it is standing up against bullies and bigots who have no compunction about using violence to further their ends. As a Christian, is that not something you believe in?

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:01 AM

Gervase, thanks for the long quotes. I hope most folks DON'T take them as authentic!

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:06 AM

I have never met Keith, hence I cannot tell you anything about him other than what I read in his posts. Sometimes I think folks miss an important distinction. I am responding to words without the benefit of knowing the person, other than through the opinions they express. When you post an opinion online, in a discussion forum, you are inviting a response.

Because I have never met Keith in person, I think it appropriate to apologize publicly for calling him a bigot. I do so unreservedly.

Opinions are another matter. I find many of Keith's opinions to reflect a viewpoint I find objectionable. He is far from the only one I would say this about. But the debate should focus on attacking ideas, not people.

One last thing. If I use myself as an example, I have been posting on this forum almost since the beginning. I can remember when most of you came here. I have been through many "ups" and many "downs" in that time. My posts are often a reflection of that. Just as in 3D life, things are often said that we wish we hadn't said. For the most part I have let those remarks stand and took the heat for them (even though I have the ability to delete them) because I think it important to do so. The point is, it isn't hard to find examples like this, we are all human, after all. There are any number of things here I regret posting. But I generally have tried to act with integrity. Personally, despite occasional lapses in the heat of the argument, I feel it is important to stick with debating, attacking, ferociously defending, our opinions, but not attack the people. Using BNP as an example, it is perfectly legitimate to attack the ideas as xenophobic if that is your view. If MBS George wants to place her name on those ideas then she must stand the heat. If I want to post my views on ownership of weapons, I must be able to stand the scrutiny that that entails. But we need not adopt the tactics of those we detest. To do so will doom this place as it becomes increasingly more strident and less relevant. I don't want that.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:07 AM

Although I realise that the supposed missive from Joe Offer is spam, I just loved the line "A long time member of the UK folk community"
Errrrm....Not any more!!!

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:19 AM

In my opinion, calling someone a "Fucking facist" is a personal attack and that is against mudcat rules.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:20 AM

Agreed, Kendall. I did a search and only found one use of that. What example are you using?

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:27 AM

Delete it, then.

Won't make Georgina Dale NOT a fucking fascist though. My point was to illustrate that she is not as pure as the driven snow in other ways than merely her political affiliations and that Joe Offer was wrong to state otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:31 AM

Haven't you falling into the trap of stereotyping her as completely evil in ALL ways because of one aspect of her life? Why, I've heard that even Hitler was kind to animals.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:35 AM

Two, actually. The BNP and GEFFism.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:39 AM

Big Mick,I have been personally insulted by three moderators on this forum,you were the only one who was big enough to apologise.
Joe Offer,anyone who is a chief moderator and sends a private message,calling someone[me] a certified asshole, and lectures other members on politeness,is a comedian.
Joe,Jesus Christ was crucified for being a trouble maker,for being anti establishment and for believing in Justice,true Christians believe in equality regardless of race, or colour .
I am a Christian[quaker]and Ioppose the BNP.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: John P
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:42 AM

Aside from a couple of people who always make snarky comments about religion, I haven't seen much anti-Christian bigotry here. I've seen lots of strong disagreements about religion, but not anyone saying that all Christians are this or all Christians are that. I was going to ask for some examples, but in order to show bias there would have to be an overwhelming number of them.

A couple of anti-religion people and some general disagreements about the rationality of religion don't make a bias. Besides, why pay any attention to anyone who thinks all Christians are alike?

As for the bigot question, there is a fine line between confronting evil and insulting the evil-doers. If I say that someone's ideas are half-baked or that they are a bigot, is that an insult or a statement of obvious truth?

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: s&r
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:42 AM

Joe Offer

I speak for myself and I suspect many Mudcatters: I admire your sober approach to running the show, and appreciate your efforts to maintain the value of Mudcat. The moderators and elves are largely invisible and mostly possessed of good judgement.

Most of the problems of Mudcat show a good example of the 80/20 rule, ie 80% of the problem is caused by 20% of the members. We all know who are the 20%.

This is IMO the most valuable musical forum on the web. The pool of sane members represent the finest knowledge base I have ever encountered

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:43 AM

MBS George is not evil, just misguided. Thats all.
And didn't Hitler give his dog Blondi a cyanide sandwich? (Fair enough, he wasn't having a good day!)

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Goose Gander
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:48 AM

Two separate topics here:

Anti-Christian bigotry among Mudcatters, which is abundant and deplorable. Anyone who consistently displayed attitudes towards Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. equivalent to those expressed by many Mudcattters toward Christians and their faith would be booted from this site.

Hostility toward the BNP, which - while it should not lapse into personal insults - I'm afraid is understandable.

Please, please, please do not conflate the two.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:59 AM

Fundamentally, it comes down to people fixated on what they hate and sharing that hatred with everyone else here.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:05 PM

So--- a thread to discuss the unpleasantness and try to plead for restraint has become a magnet for even MORE name-calling and LESS restraint?
Some of you feel you are entitled to say anything you please about topics & people you don't like. It's that sort of behavior that makes trying to moderate a forum a full time job for a busload of moderators.

*sigh*... give some folks an inch, and they take a mile.

I am beginning to think that **ANY** discussion of the BNP ought to be off limits. Management used to have to restrict discussion of the Nothern Ireland issue because adherents on BOTH sides could not restrain their remarks in any decent way. It has come close to that in the Israeli/Paletinian threads, we all remember other attempts to use Mudcat for personal vendettas on several other issues. The issues are important, but NO ONE has access to 'absolute truth' on ANY topic.

SURELY there are better places to rant.....I would hope.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:06 PM

Bunch o' blankety-blanks fundamentalists is what they are!*bg*

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:07 PM

Just a small aside: fascism (big F or small f) is a political/economic system and philosophy, like it or not. Nazism was fascist in some respects but not in others; for example, the call for "racial purity was alien to fascist philosophy. Bigotry and racism, which seem to be the raison d'etre of the BNP and similar groups, really have nothing to do with fascism.    The only thing the BNP and fascism really have in common is a focus on extreme nationalism. Calling them, or their supporters, fascists gives them entirely too much respect.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:08 PM

"Anti-Christian bigotry among Mudcatters, which is abundant and deplorable"

didn't I just read several comments above which said they did NOT find much of this?

The point is, perceptions differ!!. That is why I plead for more careful discussion and less blanket statements like the above!

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: irishenglish
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:08 PM

This leaves me baffled frankly. I haven't been on here the last 6 months or so too often, but I get the gist of what is going on here. I even posted in some of the BNP threads, and will plead full guilt to engaging, sometimes nastily, with a certain poetic member of Mudcat, whose inane ideas on music left me scratching my head many a time. I've had dustups with people too on occasion, though I won't mention names. I like to think that on occasion I have also eased back with same said person...found a light hearted moment, or try to at least say, well I don't agree with you overall, but on that one fact we are in complete agreement.

Yet, based purely on gut reaction, I cannot in BNP or similar threads, contain my utter disdain for everything, EVERYTHING that they stand for. This notion that I should feel bad for "ganging" up on a member of the BNP, as well as Mudcat, for playing the woe is me line makes my blood boil. As I've said many times on here there is a time for niceness, and theres a time for not being nice, and quite frankly, hiding behind the-I only ran because no other party was addressing this issue, so I chose the party with a Holocaust denier is weak. I think it IS acceptable to question that with someone, I think it IS reasonable to say if your BNP..take it somewhere else. If no one takes up a contrary position-where does that leave Mudcat? I'm supposed to engage the BNP elements on here with humour, taste, or by flat out ignoring them? Not how I operate.

Another thing I have suggested, more than once now applies here, since this seems to be a state of the Mudcat moment. Learn from some other forums. I remember when I joined Talkawhile...it was the most convoluted setup for joining. They do not accept gmail, hotmail, yahoo, or any of the other main ones for initially starting up your username, if you do, you get rejected. Moderators abound, and there is a picture of said moderator, with the words Moderator for every one of their posts, something I have never, never understood why Mudcat does not employ. What would it take for you to change Mudcat to that type of system-to have mods omnipresent, and not just have the occasional deleted post after someone has alerted you, or have threads go on for 200 posts before we see the first RED ALERT from Joe warning us all to behave.

Like I said, I will plead guilty to losing my cool. I will also admit that I think I am one of the nicest people you will ever disagree with....until you cross that line into something that we should all find abhorrent. Why must I play nice in that case?

Joe, Mick everyone, your great guys, and Joe your opening salvo was obviously building up over time here. I fundamentally disagree though that this place, this forum has to follow some cookie cutter line regarding certain subject matters. If there were threads about child porn, the thread and its participants would be gone right? This is the reason why I haven't been around much. I got tired of seeing people, good people on mudcat, be called out for raising their voice.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:09 PM

What some people need to do, is take a few deep breaths, before they launch into a diatribe.
The first thing to do is remember that most people are only expressing a personal opinion. OK in most cases they express it badly, but that's no reason to go for the jugular.
As for Christian baiting, if it occurs. What happened to turning the other cheek?

JM

[With his tongue firmly in his unturned cheek]

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:10 PM

Thank you, ArtBrooks.... THAT is an example of clarifying and discussing......not that it will impress those whose minds are already made up.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:17 PM

Yup, I agree Bill, Folk against Fascism is a misnomer. It should be racism not fascism. I'm afraid that the urge to use the Woody guitar logo was too much of a temptation ;)

JM

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:23 PM

"I haven't seen much anti-Christian bigotry here."

Nor me, I've only seen people (including myself I admit) reacting to barely veiled preachery about the "End Times".

I think the major problem is, that the majority of perfectly reasonable and moderate Xstians get a bad rap because of a *minority* of *highly voluble* extremists, who go around shouting about how Obama is an evil anti-Christ, how gays should be impaled on roasting spits in hell, and how brilliant it will be when the world blows up and everybody (except them) burns in boiling seas of blood. These very LOUD, terrifying and politically aggressive "Xtians" give real Christians (and even real christians without the big C) a bad name. People react poorly to this hate filled stuff, and thus "Christianity" as a whole, gets it in the teeth as a consequence.

My Gran was a devoted life-long Catholic (as are others in my Irish family), and bar her taking me to Mass once when I was a kid, I simply never heard her talk religion. Which is how it should be IMO. I've followed my own path spiritually, and while my personal beliefs probably wouldn't look much different to JC's teaching in the New Testament if I were to detail them, that's my business.

I initiated a thread about Christianity recently and there was precisely ZERO antagonism or unpleasantness - which for me proves that there is plenty tolerance enough here, even among the 'fiercely atheist' *smile*. In fact I thought it was a rather interesting discussion, and could have continued as such - though I failed to keep refreshing it: Varieties of Christianity

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:34 PM

We are told by one poster that most of the problems in the Mudcat are caused by 20% of the people here. I guess that 20% would be the "bad guys". But we are told by the thread originator that the people who are causing the problems are the "good guys". I would say this conundrum demonstrates the need to examine how people are designated as "good guys" or "bad guys" in the first place. In the case of the "good guys", we see that it can't be their behavior, because we are being told that they are behaving badly. It must be something else that earns them this designation.

Conversely, in the case of the "bad guys", how did they get that designation if they aren't the only ones who engage in bad behavior? Again, it must be something else that earns them this designation.

This need to put people into these kinds of categories is a part of the architecture here in the Mudcat. And once someone is placed in one or the other of these categories, it really doesn't matter what they ever do or don't do from that moment on. It's the label that most people will see rather than the actual person and their behavior. And the way they are treated by others (those who fall for those kinds of social dynamics) will be determined not by how they themselves behave or don't behave, but rather by which label has been applied to them by those to make those designations.

This kind of social dynamic is very unhealthy, and is the cause of most of the headaches that fora with these kinds of social structures experience. Get rid of this kind of social structure, and the problems disappear. Make it about the behavior and not about the person.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:39 PM

Crow Sister, I don't see a great deal either, and I don't think I've ever seen anything like you describe from what we'd call the religious right - perhaps I follow the wrong threads. What I do see, from what appears to be a very small number of very outspoken, very left, right-ponders, is this thought process: Conservative Christians are all right-wingers...all right-wingers are against social welfare programs and are bigots...therefor all Christians are bigoted anti-progressives. Then you add in the second great leap of logic - that since the majority of Americans say that they are Christians of one variety or another, most Americans are bigoted anti-progressives. Of course, the logic trail is flawed at every step, but that doesn't help matters much.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:49 PM

You can tell more about a person
by what he says about others
than you can by
what others say about him.

      Leo Aikman

--
Be kind whenever possible.
It is always possible.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:59 PM

Artbrooks, I wasn't saying that Mudcat is filled with hate-fueled Xstian bigots by any means, and of course it isn't! I certainly wouldn't hang around if it were. I was saying that hate-fueled Xstian bigots unfortunately tend to be the most voluble and politically forceful (thus they get the most publicity) - and this high volume and high profile religious extremism, colours broader perceptions of Xstianity as a whole. I guess rather in the same fashion that Muslim extremists do a bad turn for Islam.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: bobad
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:11 PM

I will add my somewhat insignificant voice to those who see little anti Christian bias around here, in fact, if I see any sort of bias I would have to say that it is pro Christian, but that perception is, of course, tainted by my own bias.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: kendall
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:20 PM

I have avoided the BNP thread, but I will remind those who are too young to remember, "The past is prolog".

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:21 PM

Folk against Fascism is a misnomer

It isn't and there is no case for changing it to "Folk Against Racism". There is a pre-existing movement called "Love Music Hate Racism" which is more of an heir to "Rock Against Racism" of the 1970s.

What the BNP are attempting to do specifically is to subvert British (mainly English) folk music and using it on their sites without permission from the artists and marketing it under their label Excalibur. This has exact parallels with Germany in the 1930s when traditional music became so tainted with nazi associations that it is still, in the main, locked away in university music departments.

What FaF wants to ensure is that English trad does not suffer the same fate.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:44 PM

Jeri

Fundamentally, it comes down to people fixated on what they hate and sharing that hatred with everyone else here.

Actually Jeri, for many of us it is about what we love; our music. It is dissappointing that many US Mudcatters don't seem to have grasped the point about the BNP.

From the Folk Against Fascism facebook page -

The British National Party's manifesto encourages its members to insinuate themselves into the folk and traditional customs of Britain. This involves the appropriation of British folk music and culture as a means of spreading its peculiar brand of racism
and intolerance.

I don't think that the BNP are any great threat to British democracy. They can generally be relied on to fall out amongst themselves on a regular basis and they seem to regard getting elected as an end in itself and have little idea what to do when they get into office.

They do, however, represent a serious threat to British traditional music by polluting it with their vile policies. I steer clear of using the word fascism but "racist" and "thug" are not just mindless insults but statements of fact. They have recently been taken to court because their membership conditions were explicitly racist. Many of their core activists have convictions for racial violence.

MBSGeorge has chosen to align herself with these people, much to the distress of her friends. See this thread - thread.cfm?threadid=120986. Believe me, Cllr Mike is not some left wing hothead. Rather than trying to silence her, people have repeatedly asked her to explain her position and she has consistently failed to do so.

So Joe, rather than dismissing those who attack the BNP as "hysterical Mudcatters" and labeling us as just as bad as them, try and understand how important this is to us. We are fighting to protect what we love.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:49 PM

Diane, read tghis post, which explains correctly, why Folk against Fascicm is a misnomer


"Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: artbrooks - PM
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 12:07 PM

Just a small aside: fascism (big F or small f) is a political/economic system and philosophy, like it or not. Nazism was fascist in some respects but not in others; for example, the call for "racial purity was alien to fascist philosophy. Bigotry and racism, which seem to be the raison d'etre of the BNP and similar groups, really have nothing to do with fascism.    The only thing the BNP and fascism really have in common is a focus on extreme nationalism. Calling them, or their supporters, fascists gives them entirely too much respect."

Fascist as a label, has been notable more for it's misuse, than for it's use. With the epithet 'FASCIST' being hurled at people who are no more fascisti than fly in the air.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:52 PM

exactly, Bryan ,it is like the KKK hijacking American traditional music.
the BNP has the support of at least one KKK leader.
Kendall , Joe Offer, Jeri,you dont seem to have understood at all.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 01:52 PM

Creative people tend to be passionate people. Sometimes the passion carries us away before the brain engages and tells how the other fellow might feel about what and how we communicate.

It is all too easy to err, when we cannot see the face of the one we offend.

I know I have flown off the handle in some threads (BNP and God). I have been callous when I thought I was being clever and I am sorry for it. I hope I am doing better now.

I hereby apologise to anyone I have needlessly offended in any thread.

I may not agree with this one's political views or that one's ideas of how a song should be performed. But I value this one's sense of humour and that one's in depth knowledge. There is something good to focus on in every one. The trick is finding it, celebrating it, letting it temper our clashes.

The idea that Catters slip away because of individual and/or collective inconsideration worries me too. I have enough fear of Catter evaporation due to age, infirmity and death. Let's not drive each other away.

And thank you Joe for starting this thread. I echo others in saying that i do not envy the work you and the other moderators do here. But I do appreciate it.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: gnu
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 02:32 PM

I never was very "people smart". My own mother told me I was too trusting. But, here's my two cents...

Nobody is perfect, but I have found that the only way to strive toward this unattainable goal is to apologize for and attempt to correct frailties.

When people do not do this, they truly are nasty. And there are some nasties aboutst.

However, when people do this, there may be an underlying frailty, perhaps more than one. It could be the fear of being cast aside by friends or by the assembled, such as the mudcat community in general. Conjecture leads me to end this line of thought, as it does not need further examples.

I'll just add this example of sommat I have experienced and see if it may apply here... I worked for large companies in their engineering departments. Every day, I dealt with engineers, accoutants, lawyers, contractors, politicians, scientists, and so on. On Saturday morning, I went to the grocery store and dealt with people such as those who would park their shopping cart kitty-corner in the aisle and stick their arse in the rest of the aisle, oblivious to the fact that there was anyone else in the store.

Mudcat is a grocery store. You don't have to be a scientist to post. That is Max's greatest rule. Anybody can shop here. And anybody can leave. Anybody can let that idiot block the aisle for everybody to see.

I hope you understand why I proferred this ezample. If not, sue me... I ain't perfect.

BTW... me too... if I ever offended anybody unintentionally, I do apologize. The ones I intentionally offended can go fuck yerselves.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 02:46 PM

I hope you understand why I proferred this ezample. If not, sue me.

I won't sue you, but I can't quite see where that example comes in. I mean, you don't give any indication how you deal with it - fly into a rage, or shrug and squeeze through the gap and walk on by. (And are these people different people from the ones you deal with in work?)

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: Smedley
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:06 PM

"Delete it, then.

Won't make Georgina Dale NOT a fucking fascist though. "

Now this, to me, is both spot-on witty *and* politically astute. whereas I guess to others it is outrageously abusive.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:12 PM

Not abusive, just superfluous mate. The addition of such an adjective to a sentence, doesn't make the argument more cogent. In fact it can have the effect of alienating those, who might otherwise agree with you.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:14 PM

What's the difference between a fascist and a fucking fascist?

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: number 6
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:22 PM

"What's the difference between a fascist and a fucking fascist? "

a fucking fascist is breeding more fascists    :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: open mike
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 03:36 PM

I have not experienced these problems...
on mudcat or facebook, but sympathise with
those who have been hurt or angered by this.

I am sorry to hear that some find these
so over-powering that they have gone away.

I have heard of a Celtic music festival
where the bands invited to play did not
realize til later that the event was a
rally for a political (fascist/racist/
white supremist) group which used Irish
music as a mask to draw people in to thier
cause.

I do recall that when volunteering as a
young hospital aide ("candy striper") I
was cautioned not to engage in conversations
with patients around politics or religion.

these topics often bring out the most
personal feelings about beliefs held,
and not always able to use logical and
rational to respond to "belief" or "faith"
as these ideas sometimes escape logic,
or are held despite rationality.

plus it might be dangerous to ones health
to get riled up or have your blood pressure
go up due to a reaction to an enraging topic.

i hope we can revert to healthy conversations
here and continue to allow a forum where all
can express themselves. I have been questioned
recently about my posts, and hope that we all
can just learn to get along...

Amos..thanks for the perspective by Carl Sagan
reposted by Janie from the MOAB thread, the
Pale Blue Dot, this planet we all share. It is
the only home we have, and we need to concentrate
our efforts on the continuation of Mother Earth
and ourselves in order to ensure that there is
a future where we will all hopefully co-exist.

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:00 PM

read tghis post, which explains correctly, why Folk against Fascicm is a misnomer

!. I can spell fascism.
2. I do not screw up on the use of the apostrophe, nor commas.
3. I wrote an extremely long dissertation once on the roots of European fascism for which I was awarded rather more than a Desmond.
4. Why is a Murkan trying to tell English anti-fascists what to call themselves? Bit of a cheek, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:08 PM

Now there you go folks, THAT is an example of the sort of gratuitously nasty post, that I would like to see removed.
Because it is posts like that which drive away the more gentle and civilised poster, leaving only the abrasive and the argumentative.
Such trashing of Art Brooks post, is unneccesary, and unpleasant.

JM

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:12 PM

Just out of curiosity.............

I don't follow the BNP threads and I haven't really followed this one either but it seems a common theme is "they are stealing our music."

How is it that its your music?   Music kinda' belongs to anyone who wants to sing it or listen to it. The KKK is fond of the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" as well as "Dixie" because some of the lines are things they like to say......"terrible swift sword" for example.......it means something entirely different to them than to me but...........

Can I sing "Dixie?"

Somebody got a reason why music is "owned" outside of copyright problems?


Just curious.........


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: The problem at Mudcat? Moderated thread
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 04:13 PM

I must not have hit the right button. A few posts back, I thought I'd posted something like this:

In a thread where we are discussing being disrespectful to Christians, I think it is rather odd to use "Xstians." Last I knew Christians view that abbreviation as offensive. Since I am not Christian, I don't know if that is true, but did want to make note of it. I know there is no malice intended the way it was used in this thread; just making an observation.

kat