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BS: Where are all the Righties???
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Green Man Date: 17 Nov 10 - 10:16 AM It seems that your politics and ours are similar. No matter who we elect we still get shyte. The real righties are in hiding in the military-industrial complexes that define and run our countries. They do what they like, they sell what they want to whom-soever can pay the price. They destroy our environment and they forget that when everything turns to shit they won't have anywhere to hide either. Our respective Government's have drawn the teeth of the police and the judiciary using a long campaign of disinformation, black PR and of course the universal standby bullshit. In Blighty we have a Guy called Murdoch who want to take over the media. Control the media and you control the government. Anyway, it seems you guys over there have more problems (and potential targets) than you can handle. You arent the only ones that are in trouble. The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: GUEST,Patsy Date: 17 Nov 10 - 03:58 AM The only time I am a 'Righty' is when I am writing a letter. I envy people who are ambidextrous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Don Firth Date: 16 Nov 10 - 10:25 PM Revisionist history, Little Hawk. FDR's programs such as the WPA and the CCC—along with the establishment of the Securities and Exchange Commission and the imposition of regulations on the excesses of Wall Street had pretty well put an end to the Depression, and some of the causes of it, which Reagan went about reversing, which was largely responsible for getting us into the current mess. The war was a separate issue. The Depression was well on the wane by the onset of the 1940s. I was a little kid at the time, but I knew what was going on. There was considerable outrage over the fact that the United States was shipping scrap metal to Japan, who were in turn using it to make weapons with which they were savaging the Chinese. FDR stopped trade with Japan—as had many other countries. Japan sent a diplomatic mission to Washington, D. C. with the ostensible intention of trying to talk the U. S. into reopening trade. While the Japanese diplomats were smiling and bowing in D. C., the Japanese navy attacked Pearl Harbor. Feint and sucker-punch! The idea that FDR drove the Japanese into attack us is a spurious piece of history, much favored by the American Far Right in an effort to besmirch FDR's accomplishments. As I said, I was a little kid at the time, but I knew what was going on. And looking back on it, I consider the original source of the claims that FDR ended the Depression, not through his programs and regulations, but by causing the Japanese to attack us, thereby getting us into the war. Granted, the Japanese were pissed at the embargo, but the attack on Pearl Harbor had been in their play-book for a long time. Part of their agenda. They were going to do it anyway. The Republicans LOVE that bit of spurious "history." Not unlike their constant attempts to blame Obama for the current economic mess. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Nov 10 - 05:15 PM My reply, so far as I recall Ebbie, went PIFFLE!? dear Ebbie ~ Why, You will make me cry. Piffle? Sniffle! ... to which you replied simply & charmingly :) {Which is not to say, Ebbie & Bill, that I fail entirely to take your points; my requotation of the formulation was hedged about with "from one pov" &c. But it were surely idle to deny that these phenomena were part of the complex melting pot of how America became what it is.} ♥♫❤Michael❤♫♥ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 10 - 04:15 PM Amen, Ebbie! "genocide and slavery." were 'elements' which existed fairly widely in those times, and which, sadly, had de facto not de jure threads in various early American history.... as they did in many cultures. It is terribly important not to 'paint with a broad brush' when trying to explain things about history...and almost every generalization requires 10 times as many qualifications and disclaimers in order to approach fairness. I'm sure Michael realizes that, but it is so easy avoid long, tedious screeds which few will read here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Ebbie Date: 16 Nov 10 - 02:51 PM MtheGM, I don't recall saying 'piffle' to that, but I accept that I did. I continue to maintain that you are mistaken in saying "The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was founded on a firm & unshakeable basis of genocide and slavery." If you are saying that genocide and slavery were factorsbased on it. First, the US inherited slavery from its founders - who were primarily English. The fact that the English discontinued it long before the US did does not really indicate a virtue on their part. After all, the English economy as a whole was not affected by the loss of slavery; it was pretty much confined to the slave traders' being out of a lucrative part of their job. As for genocide: bad as it was, killing all the people you could in the pursuit of what you wanted was not a new thing in the world, was it, England? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Ringer Date: 16 Nov 10 - 09:07 AM '[Rightists] carry guns to town hall meetings. They defend gun ownership for automatic pistols, they support fascist-thinking ideologies and they don't follow reason but are emotionally committed to their ideas because they "think with their gut".' D'you just mean you don't agree with 'em, Stringsinger? As for this "rightie", he despises fascism for exactly the same reason he despises socialism: for its collectivism, its statism. And he's quite as capable of using and following reason as you are. It's just that his reason leads to conclusions different from yours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: MGM·Lion Date: 16 Nov 10 - 08:24 AM COO-EE-EE ~~ HERE I AM! The USA is indeed a great achievement. I have a much-loved sister-in-law who has lived 50 years in Chicago and brought up a family there. I have cousins in DC & NY & California; and dear and close friends in California, Montana, NY.... I love being there, have always been treated with the utmost of hospitality and kindness and courtesy and made to feel greatly at home, in the land which was, as someone says above, founded largely by the sweat of the rejected of Europe. On the other hand, there is no gainsaying the truth of the assertion I have made before that, looked at from another POV, as LH has partly hinted above, The Land Of The Free And The Home Of The Brave was founded on a firm & unshakeable basis of genocide and slavery. Last time I posted that on a thread, Ebbie denounced it as 'piffle!'. She can say it again if she likes; but there will be those among you who will recognise the truth of it: even if it is not necessarily the WHOLE truth... ♥♫❤Michael❤♫♥ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: bluerabbit10 Date: 16 Nov 10 - 07:44 AM Quite a few of them were elected to House of Representatives, Senate, Governorships, State Legistlatures, and so on....during past election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 18 Nov 09 - 04:18 PM Name one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 18 Nov 09 - 03:03 PM We also have our share of left wingnuts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:55 PM Bobert, the Righties are all around us. They carry guns to town hall meetings. They defend gun ownership for automatic pistols, they support fascist-thinking ideologies and they don't follow reason but are emotionally committed to their ideas because they "think with their gut". They are here on Mudcat, never fear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Nov 09 - 01:53 PM LH, I agree with you 100%. Militarism has become a curse in the US and elsewhere. It's the mindset of people unquestionably in lockstep without really thinking about it. Most inductees don't have violent feelings of aggression. They are "just following orders". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:10 PM Yeah, and we're still seeing it LH. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:14 PM I agree with you on that. They let greed for power and reckless ambition cause them to lead their nation into disaster. The same was true of the Nazi high command. One problem with politicians almost everywhere is that once they have set out on a course of action their own pride gets in the way of admitting that the original decision was a bad one. This leads them deeper and deeper into the quagmire until they are finally faced with a total failure of their policy and it all comes crashing down. The ordinary public pays the price for it. The Japanese military lost face so badly at the end of WWII that they became despised by much of the Japanese public, and serious consideration was given to completely disarming the country for the forseeable future. (I mean doing away with the entire domestic armed forces.) The humiliation of losing a major war can turn a nation powerfully into more mature and productive directions to follow than militarism...and that was demonstrated powerfully in both Germany and Japan in the postwar era. The victors of a great war, on the other hand, have their romantic illusions of military glory preserved intact, and they may soon embark on further reckless military adventures in a postwar era. We've seen more than a bit of that since 1945, I think... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: meself Date: 17 Nov 09 - 11:53 AM I'm not saying that were not a number of 'honour suicides' or instances of acceptance of the likelihood of honourable suicide (e.g., kamikaze missions) on the part of Japanese 'officers and men'; my point is that there was remarkably little of what would seem to be, according to their own code of honour, 'doing the right thing' among the actual leaders who were responsible for virtually the complete destruction, not to say humiliation, of their country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bobert Date: 17 Nov 09 - 08:47 AM "Bias" is what keeps most folks from putting their hands on hot stoves, LH... But we have covered that territory in the past... Me thinks that "bias" is a good thing when one has a decent grasp of the issues mixed with a good portion of life experience... Now back to WW II... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 17 Nov 09 - 01:49 AM Oh, there were a reasonably large number of German officers, politicians, soldiers, and civilians who killed themselves in despair during the final days. There were also a great many German women who killed themselves after having been gang-raped by God knows how many drunken Russian soldiers. The end of a war is never a pleasant business for those who find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time. One excellent movie about the fall of the Reich which centers on events in Berlin is "Der Untergang" (The Downfall). I highly recommend it, though it's certainly not a cheerful way to spend a couple of hours. My father's unit encountered a group of diehard SS men who were unwilling to surrender after VE-Day. They had hunkered down in a fortified defensive position and were intent on continuing to fight, so the Allied forces simply surrounded them at a distance and kept an eye on them. He was only there for a day, and he said no solution had been found at the time he left, so I don't know what eventually happened there. I've read a number of books written about (or by) various of the Japanese pilots who flew in the war, because the air war has always been of great interest to me. They mentioned incidents of officers who killed themselves when the war ended, though certainly the majority didn't....many of them got roaring drunk instead (depressed drunk, not happy drunk, needless to say). There was great trepidation in the civilian population about what the American "barbarians" would do after the surrender, and the very worst was expected. The sense of relief when it didn't happen must have been immense. The Japanese, in typical fashion, cooperated 100% with the occupation forces as soon as the Emperor instructed them to, so it all went quite smoothly, and that was a very good thing for all concerned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: meself Date: 17 Nov 09 - 12:46 AM According to this PBS site : "MacArthur lost no time, ordering the arrest of thirty-nine suspects -- most of them members of General Tojo's war cabinet -- on September 11, just over a week after the surrender." So these top 39 had had a week in which to kill themselves for the sake of their precious honour - but they hadn't. Tojo tried - but only when he found out he was about to be arrested. Of the 39, seven, including Tojo, were executed. While in a general way, I agree with you, I do think that sometimes a little too much is made of Japanese 'honour'. I wonder if, among the upper echelons, there weren't as many Nazis as Japanese who committed suicide at the end of the war - most notably, Hitler himself, of course. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:34 PM You may be right about Hirohito, "meself". I can't say for sure. I've heard theories going both ways about it. McArthur correctly gauged the mood of the Japanese nation in 1945 and what would be necessary to get things moving quickly in a positive direction during the occupation, so he did not in any way threaten the person of the Emperor, and that was a wise decision. A very large number of Japanese military officers (high and low) committed suicide when the war ended. Their honor could not permit them to live, having utterly failed the nation, so they killed themselves. What they felt guilty of was not committing "war crimes", but failure to successfully defend the nation. Taking their own lives would atone for it. You have to understand the honor system of a nation to understand why they do what they do. They ALWAYS believe they are doing "the right thing". If you understand their honor system, then you can negotiate with them in a productive manner. If you don't....well, then anything can happen. As an aside....that's part of the problem America is encountering in Afghanistan, I think. They're trying to solve the situation in the wrong way (militarily) and paying no attention to the local culture. Have you read the book "Three Cups of Tea" by Greg Mortensen? It's about an American ex-mountain climber who's been building schools for poor communities in northern Pakistan and Afghanistan, and it's brilliant. He first of all came to a full understanding of their cultural honor system by living among them, and he has never violated it. Accordingly they love and respect him and he has built schools for many village people who never had schools and he has placed particular emphasis on educating the girls in the villages. The ordinary Muslim people have responded most enthusiastically to the help he is giving, and have been delighted that their girls and boys now have access to proper education. That's the way to fight terrorism. Help people! You cannot bomb them or terrorize them into democracy, but you can educate them into it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: meself Date: 16 Nov 09 - 11:12 PM LH: "I think the largest share of the blame falls not on Hirohito, but on the generals who commanded the Japanese Army and who ran the government", etc. Exactly what I meant when I said Hirohito was often made out to be "an innocent". Yours is the conventional interpretation. And I repeat: from what I understand, he was not such an innocent; in fact, he was a driving force behind Japanese expansionism from the turn of the century. However, I do not claim any kind of expertise in that area, so .... LH: "if punishment is what you desire for them, I think your desire has been met" I don't believe I expressed any desire for punishment for anybody - I simply suggested, in response to kendall's comment, that those who supposedly would rather have died than lose face, were not necessarily the ones who did die - they left that honour to hundreds of thousands of their fellow-citizens. Yes, a few of the bigshots were hanged - how many actually committed suicide? My impression is that it was very few indeed - but that is based is on things I read so long ago that I'm a little unsure of my ground. Time to go googling .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 10:52 PM Most viewpoints are biased, Bill. One can be biased...and wrong. Or one can be biased...and right. Or one can be biased...and partly right. I haven't heard from anyone yet who wasn't biased, but what concerns me is whether or not they're right. And I assume that is what would concern you too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:45 PM My wife Jacqui is from England. Believe me, IT IS true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: bluerabbit10 Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:34 PM And Bluerabbit, I have heard that 47 million poor Americans are unlikely ever to see any consultant specialist. Also, I have heard that Americans who have an on-going health problem are consistently refused health cover. Also, I have heard that those Americans who DO have health cover pay ten times what I pay in the UK, and still may have to fight the insurance companies for payment if they get sick. ANY TRUTH IN THAT? And please DON'T say NO!....WE know it's true. Don T. .WE know it's true.---Who is "WE?"...Maybe some of those "THEYs" I keep hearing about? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:12 PM Where are the righties? Probably hiding from Sara! by the by, 100 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM America was founded by the losers and dregs of Europe. I'd say we turned out rather well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:55 PM "..."Popular Science", it's been a notorious mouthpiece for rightist and just plain mainstream government propaganda ..." Mercy! It never ends. Anything and anyone that put forth viewpoint "X" is labeled as biased...one way or the other. The study I point to has been WIDELY praised as being clear, focused, complete and as UNbiased as any investigation could be. I did wonder if you had bothered to read/watch it. *I* watched the films and claims from the other side....like "Loose Change". ah, well.... back to more woodworking... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:21 PM ""I have heard that a Canadian with heart problems, may have to wait a few weeks or months to see "his" Cardiologist. Any truth in that? And Bluerabbit, I have heard that 47 million poor Americans are unlikely ever to see any consultant specialist. Also, I have heard that Americans who have an on-going health problem are consistently refused health cover. Also, I have heard that those Americans who DO have health cover pay ten times what I pay in the UK, and still may have to fight the insurance companies for payment if they get sick. ANY TRUTH IN THAT? And please DON'T say NO!....WE know it's true. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:20 PM As for "Popular Science", it's been a notorious mouthpiece for rightist and just plain mainstream government propaganda ever since I was a little kid. You got a conventional view about anything that is pushed by the mainstream and the government? "Popular Science" will recite it like it was the gospel. I bet they are paid well by their sponsors. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:13 PM I think that what made both the USA and Canada great was a combination of... 1. an incredibly rich and diversified natural environment, full of useful resourcess 2. hardworking people with a pretty strong and democratic set of social institutions which came over from England 3. mercantilism such as you allude to. It was all accomplished, however, by robbing and pretty much wiping out the Native civilizations that flourished here prior to the 1500s, so a Native American might see it a bit differently. **** Those who reject the 911 Commission's findings, Bill, are found on both the Right and the Left. They come from every part of the political spectrum. I don't even see what Right or Left have to do with it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:47 PM What made America great? Immigration, expansionism, entrepreneurship, capitalism. Same holds true for Canada. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:07 PM I submit, if you haven't watched/read it, this study. (there was an entire hour-long TV program about it...I have seen it 2-3 times) Popular Science review of the 9/11 theories I'm not sure whether those who reject the Commission are 'righties', but there are similarities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:02 PM "One conspiracy theory I place little credence in is the one advanced by the 911 Commission" ?? Are you saying that the 9/11 commission's report is no better than a 'conspiracy theory'?...as in flawed, full of holes, biased and carelessly done? (I can't remember, offhand, all the hundreds of posts about that topic in the last several years) If so, I must ask if you have you read/watched/considered the explications and defenses of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:30 PM There is a smidgen of truth in that thing about how long the person has to wait to see the cardiologist. That is, there have been some such cases. In most cases treatment is prompt and it's good. It all depends, I guess, on exactly which community you're living in and how overloaded the local hospitals are with patients. I had a friend who was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and they dealt with that immediately. He was sent straight to hospital, put under observation for a few days, then operated on. So in his case the medical system moved very fast. Sometimes one hears of a case where treatment is delayed and it gets into the papers here. So what I am saying is that no system is absolutely perfect, and I wouldn't claim that the Canadian health care system is perfect either, but in most cases it's very good. It remains the most popular public institution in Canada with massively high public support in national polls. That shows that it's doing its job pretty well. The main point is that your medical treatment here is free after taxes (with the exception of dental work). My yearly taxes for that privilege are less than $1,000 and that's typical. I call that a very good deal. I only wish they'd extend it to dental as well, because that's a major expense for most people. It seems reasonable that a society would want its people to receive medical care at as little cost as possible. After all, you need a healthy populace to have a healthy society, don't you? It can only benefit society as a whole if people are not driven into bankruptcy by necessary medical care. You're quite right that what made America great was its people. The same is true of Canada. I find that most people are basically good in their nature, and that seems to be true everywhere I go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: bluerabbit10 Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:01 PM You are right LH. Our present day government is not a great government. There's too much of it and its been that way for a long while. It is getting worse by the hour. Government isn't what made America great, our people did. (You may call that a First Grade Cliche, but it is the truth). I have heard that a Canadian with heart problems, may have to wait a few weeks or months to see "his" Cardiologist. Any truth in that? My senior class prophecy in High School (1950) was that I would be a forester and be living in Canada...Well I am a forester; but still here. I have nothing against Canada, beautiful country. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:47 PM What I mean is...I like Americans, I just don't like your government, that's all. The main reasons I would not want to move to the States are: 1. terrible health care system that costs people way too much money 2. terrible political system, run by 2 phony parties 3. a strong government tendency toward authoritarianism 4. dangerous inner cities, high crime rate, corrupt police (in some states and municipalities) The main things I like about the States are: 1. nice friendly people 2. beautiful geography 3. lots of interesting places to go and things to see 4. very interesting history and culture I haven't visited the USA since 911 happened, and I know more than a few other people who say the same thing. Things have just gotten a bit too weird south of the (Canadian) border, so I've stayed away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:29 PM Do you have any good reason why I should not be cynical and contemptuous of governments in general, Bill? ;-) Virtually every person I talk to or hear talking to someone else around me is cynical and contemptuous of present day governments, and I live in one of the most benign and pleasant countries in the world. I also see loads of conspiracy theories I don't place any credence in, but I don't bother posting about them on Mudcat. I only post about the ones I'm interested in. One conspiracy theory I place little credence in is the one advanced by the 911 Commission, for example. Bluerabbit10, you are just repeating the gospel as it was told to you from the time you were in First Grade. It may surprise you that I lived in the USA for 10 years, then I returned to Canada (my original place of birth) and I would rather live in Canada by a factor of 10 to 1. I know a lot of Americans who have moved here because they feel the same way about that as I do. Funny how you never hear about that, isn't it? You are not the most generous country in the world, and there's really no way of even determining who that would be. There are too many factors involved to make such a statement. What you are is the most heavily armed and aggressive country in the world, and your nation is spending more money on the military than all the other nations in the world put together. It's also consuming more resources than the rest of the world is. I don't call that "generous", I call it wasteful and irresponsible. Yes, you do live in a great land. So do I. It's called "North America". I'm in the Canadian section, you're in the USA section. It's unquestionably a great land, and it's inhabited by fine people whom I am glad to call my friends, but your government is not a great government. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: bluerabbit10 Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM Kendall, no I don't watch that network anymore; tho at one time I did watch Rooney...many years ago. I wouldn't say "everyone wants to come here,"; but not many want to leave here, save some holi-wooder-types who have said as much; but are still here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 03:06 PM bluerabbit10, you must have watched Andy Rooney last night. He made the same comment that everyone wants to come here. Thats rubbish! Ok, all you UK catters, lets hear it, why dont you want to come here? Is it because of our awful health care system? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:24 PM Bush, Blair, and other like minded idiots were itching to get into a hassle with Saddam. They should have finished him in Gulf 1, when they stopped fifty miles short of Baghdad, instead of which they shafted the Iraqi dissidents who would have taken control and kept the contry moving forward. Those people died as soon as Saddam got the coalition out of his hair. They missed the bus, and fudging up intel reports to justify a second bite at the cherry, was a) ILLEGAL! and b) STUPID! When will these dumb bastards realise that if you constantly interfere in your neighbour's life, he is one day going to hop the fence and black your eye. I want MY government to tend to our cabbage patch, bring the boys home to defend it, and leave the neighbours to sort their own hassle. If we don't provoke them, why would they bother to bomb us? When was the last time anybody bombed a Swiss city, or a Swedish city? Hell, even the neutral Irish were never bombed, and the North were only bombed by their own citizens. In the UK, I am considered right wing, but I suspect that to the right of me I would find Attila the Hun, and beyond him the GOP. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Jeri Date: 16 Nov 09 - 02:11 PM Suppose I told you I'd once lived in a country where I didn't pay for medical care, other than taxes. Everything was paid for by taxes. People who had a higher income and a lower had the same exact care that I did. Medicine also came out of taxes, too. On the other hand, the doctors didn't have to pay for malpractice insurance and the facility, equipment, and staff was provided for them. It's a shame it can't happen here. I thought the system worked pretty well for everybody, and I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would not want something similar, other than knee-jerk because of defensiveness of the status quo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bill D Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:49 PM *tsk*, Little Hawk "I assure you that "they" are well in control ..".etc... I'm afraid that being 'assured' of your opinion is not exactly what I require to be convinced. (was there ever any doubt that I thought that way? ☺) Same with that fairly common analysis of FDR's policies. I have read for many years that it was suspected that FDR manipulated us into war in order to...blah, blah, blah.... but as far as I remember, it was all speculation. (In the case of Bush and Iraq, we have MUCH more direct evidence.) I can easily see how FDR might have just reacted TO events and made good use of his opportunities without pushing & planning such terrible things. *shrug*... I tend not to **believe** either way until I see hard evidence. You know, I think see a pattern in certain poster's opinions, and if I wasn't philosophically opposed to wild generalization, *grin*, I might be tempted to |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: bluerabbit10 Date: 16 Nov 09 - 01:40 PM This country USA became a world power in about 230 years. Capitalism, free markets and those freedoms guaranteed by our Constitution and Bill of Rights made it possible. We are the most generous nation on the planet. We are the first to respond to any world tragedies. Everyone wants to get into this great land, very few want out. I have not seen one socialistic country thrive without suppressing their masses. Why would anyone want to change from what we have, to what we will become under this administration? Other countries have been around for thousands of years and can't hold a candle to the US. Socialism never works, history proves it. I am 77 years old, so maybe I am losing my mind; but I can't understand what most of the population today expects from others. The opportunities are out there, go to them and prosper in this great land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:23 PM I think the largest share of the blame falls not on Hirohito, but on the generals who commanded the Japanese Army and who ran the government. Although they professed loyalty to the Emperor, they in fact regarded him as a convenient rubber stamp on decisions that they had already made themselves. There was a long tradition of that in Japan....warlords really ran the system in the feudal period, the Emperor served as a symbolic inspiration for the people. The Emperor could issue a command and be sure it was obeyed, but he generally didn't. The warlords issued the commands. Now in the case of the Japanese generals who did make the decisions that took Japan to war in China and then against the USA, the UK, and Holland...most of those generals did end up badly. Some were executed (including Yamashita, who really should not have been, in my opinion) and others committed suicide when the war ended, so if punishment is what you desire for them, I think your desire has been met. Freda, your comments about Massoud, the Wahabis, the Hazara, and so on, are quite accurate. Have you read the book "The Kite Runner"? There's a lot of info in there about the persecutions suffered by the Hazara and the vicious nature of the Taliban in Afghanistan. Yes, Massoud did the most harm to the Soviets. One should not, however, discount the fighting done by Osama's people, the Mujahedin (forerunners of the Taliban), and the Pashtuns...all of whom also fought against the Soviet occupation. The Hazaras have always been treated badly by the majority Pashtuns...and I expect they will continue to be treated badly in the future. Tribal rivalries go way back in that region. And, yes, the Wahabis are a very unpleasant outfit. No argument there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: meself Date: 16 Nov 09 - 12:04 PM Well - at least, worse than the deaths of how many of their own people - but who among the decision-makers lost their lives? Certainly not Hirohito, who, from what I understand, was not the innocent he has sometimes been made out to be .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 16 Nov 09 - 09:14 AM LH, you are so right but you left out the thing that finally "tore the rag off the bush". FDR finally froze all of Japans assets in this country. They knew they could not win a war with the USA, but to lose face was worse than death to them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Bobert Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:12 AM I thought "her duties" were to keep an eye on Russia, Kendall... B;~) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: freda underhill Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM LH, I agree with some of Margolis' analysis, but not all. Yes, US funding to Pakistan intelligence fostered the Taliban. The warlord Ahmed Shah Massoud, a Tajik, was the military leader responsible for driving the Soviets out of Afghanistan, not Osama or the Taliban. The Taliban rolled in when Massoud and co lost control and anarchy descended on Afghanistan. Afghans previously practised a gentler version of Islam, and those in the cities were culturally influenced by western ideas. Afghan women in the cities were educated, could hold jobs and did not wear full body covering as they were forced to do under the Taliban. The Taliban brought into Afghanistan the extremeism of the Wahabis, the wrap 'em up and chop em uppers. Although claiming to be anti-communist, the Taliban are led by many of the old Afghan communists. Why? Pragmatism and ethnic loyalty. The Taliban and the Communists are both Pashtun-dominated movements, and tribal and ethnic bonds rule. Margolis does not mention the Hazaras, who were subjected to genocide by the Taliban, their massacred bodies dumped in group graves. The Hazaras were begging the West for intervention prior to the allied invasion, because their young men were being executed, or kidnapped by the Taliban and sent to the front line. The invasion by Allied forces has and effectively saved the Hazaras from ethnic cleansing at the hands of the Taliban, in those areas where the Allied forces have had control. I wonder what will happen to the Hazaras when the Allied Forces pull out? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:35 PM About the FDR thing and Japan, Janie. What I said is no particular implication that the USA is any more evil than any other great power. The Japanese and the Americans had been gearing up for an eventual naval war in the Pacific ever since the 1920s and they both knew it. They played wargames regularly to see how best to fight it, and they engaged in huge naval building programs with an eye to besting or containing the other. This was because the USA and Japan were THE 2 great naval powers in the Pacific Theatre, and they were both busy carving out an overseas empire there. The Americans had bases in the Phillipines and a number of other places, and that greatly concerned the Japanese. The Japanese had acquired some handy bases too after the end of WWI when they were given some former German possessions. This gave them advanced bases at places like Truk Lagoon and the Marianas, and that worried the USA. So I think the clash was in fact inevitable...just a question of when. Now, Japan had planned a provocation in China in 1937 which allowed them to launch a terribly brutal war there, and they just kept getting drawn deeper and deeper into the vast Chinese interior. They were also moving into the French colonial areas in what is now Vietnam, taking advantage of French weakness following France's 1940 defeat by Germany. So the Japanese were destabilizing and provoking the whole East Asian-Pacific area. From FDR's point of view, he very much wanted to enter WWII so as to defeat Germany, but he had no pretext for doing so, and he had an isolationist public and Congress. The best way to get the country in a mood for war was to get someone else to attack the USA (think 911) and the Germans certainly were not going to do so. But the Japanese could be provoked into doing so by FDR cutting off their supplies of both oil and steel by a trade embargo. Without the oil and steel, Japan's war in China would stall and their entire military would grind to a halt in about 1 year...they had no domestic sources of oil and steel. With the embargo in place, war with Japan was utterly inevitable, and Roosevelt knew it. It would result in the Japanese attacking first...somewhere...and that's what he needed to get the American public mad enough to support fighting a global war against both Japan and Germany. I doubt that he imagined the Japanese had the expertise to launch a large attack on Pearl Harbour....they were badly underestimated in Wsshington...but it didn't really matter where they attacked in the long run. They didn't have a big enough economy to win a war with the USA. Now, had I been in Roosevelt's place, I might have done the very same thing in 1941. How about that, eh? I don't think it indicates that the USA is particularly evil...it's just standard big power politics and strategy when empires start colliding over spheres of influence. And it did end the depression, so that was just one more payoff for a policy on FDR'd part that turned out to be a pretty smart and effective policy. I'm not saying he did it TO end the depression...he had many global strategic reasons for doing it...but I'm saying that it ended the depression in any case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Where are all the Righties??? From: kendall Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:48 PM Ak, it matters not one bit how good you are. If you cant get elected you are toast. Period. I mostly voted against John McWar and that air head who has no clue what the duties of the VP are. |
